Let's Talk About Amp's: Mana Burst revisions

[FallenMaou2234]

Intro
So Mana burst a skill that virtually all "Seiba's" got and it's stated to boost all physical abilities and magic but we never really have that boost noted on profiles which I'd assume is either because there's no concrete multiplier or people just weren't too concerned. With that said let's try our hand at giving Mana burst a proper concrete multiplier or boost or whatever. So yeah let's get started.

Scans and Reasoning
Radiant and Brilliant Royal Sword [Noble Phantasm]
Rebellion Against My Beautiful Father [Noble Phantasm]
Clarent.
Clarent Blood Arthur.
Together, they are Mordred’s Noble Phantasm. It was originally a sword stored in King Arthur’s treasury. But Mordred broke into the treasury when she caused her rebellion. Perhaps being interested in it as the “sword that symbolizes royalty”, she came to favor using it.
It was originally a B rank sword bestowed during the succession of kingship, used to amplify the king’s authority… the king’s royal aura. Concretely, it raises the owner’s physical stats by one rank, and grants and raises the skill “Charisma”. However, since Mordred was never acknowledged as king, the sword itself is lowered by one rank and she cannot acquire any bonuses while wielding it.
However, the ability of “amplification” itself has not been lost, so Mordred drives her excessive hatred into the sword in the form of prana, thereby amplifying it and allowing her to shoot it as an attack.
To make it easy to understand, “Clarent Blood Arthur” is an application of “Prana Burst”

Well there you have it, normally Clarent itself as a noble phantasm is B-Rank but when Mordred uses it it decreases even further and becomes C-Rank buuuut.

■ Clarent Blood Arthur: Rebellion Against My Beautiful Father
Rank: A+
Type: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~50
Maximum number of targets: 800 People
Clarent's full power released form. Original was an ornate, sparkling white silver sword, but when invoked it is dyed with dark red blood and warps into an unsightly form. The blade is clad in wanton hatred and fired. A demonic sword of calamity.

When amped by Mana burst Clarent the C-Rank NP can produce an A+-Rank attack. Pretty big amp if you ask me but most of you already know that so it's not exactly a secret. So, look why does this matter?? it's not like a boost in rank can be quantified rigggggghtt??.............or can they?? HEHE BOIII we're going there, allow me to present to you parameter rules hehehehe

Rank	Value	+	++	+++
A	50	100	150	200
B	40	80	120	160
C	30	60	90	120
D	20	40	60	80
E	10	20	30	40

So the above table displays the "Values" for Parameters so a quick gander here displays, C-Rank NP's as having a base value of 30 so this would correspond to Clarents normal rank when used by Mordred and A+ Parameters are displayed as 100. If we do some quick maths we can easily see that generally 3.3 times stronger via parameter rules. Now, there's obviously the notion that the strength of Noble Phantasms is a little more complicated than that and I agree but that isn't what I'm focusing on here today nor do I want to focus on. What I want to focus on is the baseline difference so as to give a better image of what Mana burst provides for physicals.

Q: Is there ever a case where each possessed noble phantasms' rank is different from the status screen's Noble Phantasm Rank?

A: The principle is the same. Numericalization is also possible, but for those guys' abilities we kinda did a meaning-word-play "A is stronger so B will lose to it" type thing then numbers were separated into rough conceptual categories like A~E.

By the way, please consider +'s as just things that can momentarily double an ability.

Above you can see that the principle of the numerically quantifying the strength of Noble phantasms is roughly similar to that of normal servant parameters which specifically do pertain to physical abilities in the case of STR, AGI etc.. so given that they're roughly the same that baseline value of 3.3x can be applied. It shouldn't pose too much problem to view mana burst as being this big an amp as well because in reality it's probably higher than that. Case in point being Seiba the literal first servant to possess the skill in canon.

Mana Burst: A
The ability to reinforce one’s weapon and body through the infusion of magical energy. By reinforcing the ability of the body to a great extend using magical energy, the physically fragile Artoria was able to fight head on with monsters such as Berserker.

As, noted here Artoria is "physically fragile" without her mana burst when under Shirou but as a result of mana burst she can go toe to toe with monsters like Berserker who has been stated to be a mountain buster so yeah that's probably a little more than 3.3x and there's well the fact that on this wiki we scale A+-rank NP's to 2.9 teratones and A-rank NP's to 79.9 Gigatones which is a little higher than 3.3x's as well......I think. So as arbitrary as it is I think assigning a base multiplier for mana burst users would be rather neat. However, if you're still skeptical that it may conflict with our current standards don't worry Maou is here to assuage all your worries and I'll do it using our good old friends, Herc and God Hand.



Now as you can see God hand can't be pierced by attack's/NP's under A-Rank as it nullifies all attacks of B-Rank and below and mana burst allows you to get past it like Seiba when she poked a hole in Berserker during UBW or Salter spamming mana burst against him in HF to the point that each one (Visually at least) looked like a noble phantasm in and of itself. So, that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Now with regards to why 87.78 Gigatones after the 3.3x amp doesn't **** up the scaling chain despite us labelling A-Rank NP's as 6-C+ (79.9 Gigatones) is because of one: the fact that each time Herc dies his resistance to attacks gets even stronger. Yes, with the way God hand works it's possible to take multiple lives with a single attack but going off the HF movies she(Salter) killed him a total of 3 times before actually using her NP. Meaning that after the first time it'd likely take more than your average A-ranked Excaliblast to kill him. Thus even if the the multiplier takes some servants over the baseline value for all A-rank Np's we do have precedent for that being accurate. And two: the fact that Mordred can produce A+-Rank attacks with her Mana Burst which scales to Low 6-B (2.9 Teratones). So, yeah I don't think a couple servants with A-rank mana burst scaling above the baseline for A-rank Np's isn't too big an issue.

Scaling
So, what would this change?? well it would probably mean that everyone with the Mana Burst or a Mana Burst variant (e.g Mana Burst Flame) skill of a comparable rank to Mordred or Seiba(Salter as well) would get a Higher after their base 6-C(26.6 Gigatones) and scale up to 6-C+ (87.78 Gigatones) because Mana burst directly allows them to amp their normal attacks and an "Even" or "Far" Higher if they use Armor made out of magical energy like Artoria and Mordred so basically "Even Higher (can convert her armor into magical energy to further boost her abilities using mana burst)" as the strength of their mana burst directly corresponds to the amount of magical energy available.

and with that this thread has officially come to an end thoughts??(please don't clown me if this is utter BS I'll cry)

So here are a list of servants this would scale to if it goes through:
Artoria Pendragon (Saber)
Artoria Pendragon (Lily)
Artoria Pendragon (Lancer)
Arthur Pendragon
Artoria Pendragon Alter (Lancer)
Ereshkigal
Karna
Arjuna
Ishtar
Diarmuid Ua Duibhne (Saber)
Charlemagne
Dioscuri
Minamoto-no-Raikou
Mordred
Caren
Astraea
Archetype Earth(Servant)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Following, i'll wait for a the others before agreeing with this

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Fate Scaling is like trying to scale Dragon Ball if Manga, Anime, Movies, and Spin-Offs were all canon to each other

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Fate Scaling is like trying to scale Dragon Ball if Manga, Anime, Movies, and Spin-Offs were all canon to each other

Implying it was a surprise for you lel

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Fate Scaling is like trying to scale Dragon Ball if Manga, Anime, Movies, and Spin-Offs were all canon to each other

Trust me Its much much worse
It is what it is

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Trust me Its much much worse
It is what it is

It is a thousand time worse

 

[TypeOU]

movies aren't canon.

However, the ability of “amplification” itself has not been lost, so Mordred drives her excessive hatred into the sword in the form of prana, thereby amplifying it and allowing her to shoot it as an attack. To make it easy to understand, “Clarent Blood Arthur” is an application of “Prana Burst”, and the red lightning that it manifests are her twisted feelings towards her father that have been amplified by the sword.

trying to argue for CBA scaling to anyone's mana burst is madness. It's 1. dependent on clarent and 2. dependent on mordred.

Artoria constantly uses mana burst to amp herself, yet she was constantly getting wrecked by Heracles (could get one-shotted, blitzed and no-selled) and couldn't win against sasaki. This is despite her stats under Shirou being B-C-C compared to Heracles A(+ is from valor which doesn't work on zerks)-A-A. Even doubling it would easily make her stronger than him.

Mana burst is a A-ranked skill, it bypasses god hand independently of its power.

tl;dr: lmao no.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

movies aren't canon.

However, the ability of “amplification” itself has not been lost, so Mordred drives her excessive hatred into the sword in the form of prana, thereby amplifying it and allowing her to shoot it as an attack. To make it easy to understand, “Clarent Blood Arthur” is an application of “Prana Burst”, and the red lightning that it manifests are her twisted feelings towards her father that have been amplified by the sword.

trying to argue for CBA scaling to anyone's mana burst is madness. It's 1. dependent on clarent and 2. dependent on mordred.

Artoria constantly uses mana burst to amp herself, yet she was constantly getting wrecked by Heracles (could get one-shotted, blitzed and no-selled) and couldn't win against sasaki. This is despite her stats under Shirou being B-C-C compared to Heracles A(+ is from valor which doesn't work on zerks)-A-A. Even doubling it would easily make her stronger than him.

Mana burst is a A-ranked skill, it bypasses god hand independently of its power.

tl;dr: lmao no.

HF movie's aren't even Canon........oh no

Well statistically speaking doubling your power using Mana Burst wouldn't increase your rank in certain parameters that's never stated or implied so idk where that came from. I did note that it is a little more complicated than that. The multiplier is just an arbitrary measurement cause it's likely far greater than a 3.3× increase Literally physically fragile artoria even being remotely capable of fighting Mountain buster Herc is proof that, that shit is probably a lot more than a mere 3.3

Clarent Blood Arthur is specifically noted to be an application of Mana Burst as she just fills it with Mana from Mana Burst to use the attack and even if you wanna say that its only because of the Amplification that she can get it to that level, Salter and Seiba still exist which still serves as proof of the concept and it likely doesn't matter be cause it's not like were trying to say people with A-Rank Mana Burst should scale to Low 6-B but rather it's just supporting evidence and a basis for Mana burst being an amp for attack Potency

Using Sasaki as a point of reference kinda doesn't work because she literally says herself that she has the advantage in power, speed etc....but couldn't get to him because his skill just vastly surpasses hers.

"Mana Burst is an A-Ranked Skill it bypasses God Hand Regardless of power" Mana Burst literally is "the increase in performance caused by infusing one's weapons and body with Magical Energy and instantly expelling it." It isn't some special attack in and of itself it just allows people to shove large amounts of power into their bodies and attacks to increase their performance it's even stated that using Mana burst a stick can become a weapon of great power. So idk what distinction you're trying to make but it likely doesn't exist.

 

[rogueprestonian]

movies aren't canon.

However, the ability of “amplification” itself has not been lost, so Mordred drives her excessive hatred into the sword in the form of prana, thereby amplifying it and allowing her to shoot it as an attack. To make it easy to understand, “Clarent Blood Arthur” is an application of “Prana Burst”, and the red lightning that it manifests are her twisted feelings towards her father that have been amplified by the sword.

trying to argue for CBA scaling to anyone's mana burst is madness. It's 1. dependent on clarent and 2. dependent on mordred.

Artoria constantly uses mana burst to amp herself, yet she was constantly getting wrecked by Heracles (could get one-shotted, blitzed and no-selled) and couldn't win against sasaki. This is despite her stats under Shirou being B-C-C compared to Heracles A(+ is from valor which doesn't work on zerks)-A-A. Even doubling it would easily make her stronger than him.

Mana burst is a A-ranked skill, it bypasses god hand independently of its power.

tl;dr: lmao no.

The HF movies, Solomon movie, and parts of the Camelot movies are canon.
Nasu accepted the changes made to the HF movies and even appreciated especially the Salter and Berserker fight as it made it more interesting compared to the og VN.
Here is one link:

And the Lancelot vs Agravain, Gawain vs Bedivere, Bedivere vs Lion King, and partially the Tristan fight due to the omission of Hassan of Hundred Faces are canon. Especially the Lancelot fights.
And all of Solomon is canon with Nasu adding extra info about Ritsuka in it.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Should we call Crimson to come here btw?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I just wanna clear up a few things before I agree

Are we 100% sure that the numbers for Ranks above refer solely to attack power

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I just wanna clear up a few things before I agree

Are we 100% sure that the numbers for Ranks above refer solely to attack power

The amount of magical energy is energy to know the value of attack and defense, Ranks only means you are higher or lower, and Mana Burst can be used to attack and defend.

but yeah, it's 100% refer to attack like displayed in the OP.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The amount of magical energy is energy to know the value of attack and defense, Ranks only means you are higher or lower, and Mana Burst can be used to attack and defend.

but yeah, it's 100% refer to attack like displayed in the OP.

Then the OP is fine and I accept it

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Should we call Crimson to come here btw?

I guess, he doesn't seem to participate in the smaller threads but I'll message him later.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I just wanna clear up a few things before I agree

Are we 100% sure that the numbers for Ranks above refer solely to attack power

If were talking NP's that directly deal damage and not something like God Hand then yes it does refer solely to attack power

 

[TypeOU]

Well statistically speaking doubling your power using Mana Burst wouldn't increase your rank in certain parameters that's never stated or implied so idk where that came from.

It's stated to increase strength, resistance and speed. The 3 category where heracles dunked on artoria during their fight

I did note that it is a little more complicated than that. The multiplier is just an arbitrary measurement cause it's likely far greater than a 3.3× increase Literally physically fragile artoria even being remotely capable of fighting Mountain buster Herc is proof that, that shit is probably a lot more than a mere 3.3

A truck is fragile compared to a tank. Artoria still has B-C-C as base stats, yet Herc who has A-A-A was still wrecking her using mana burst (which she always does). As you pointed out above, parameters rules are a thing. C is 30, B is 40, A is 50. If it so much as doubled her AP, she would reach 80-60-60 compared to herk 50-50-50. She wouldn't be overwhelmed. Forget 3.3x, forget "more than a mere 3.3"

Clarent Blood Arthur is specifically noted to be an application of Mana Burst as she just fills it with Mana from Mana Burst to use the attack and even

However, the ability of “amplification” itself has not been lost, so Mordred drives her excessive hatred into the sword in the form of prana, thereby amplifying it and allowing her to shoot it as an attack.
It's explicitly NOT just mana burst. Which can be seen with, you know, the fact that she can also use regular mana burst

if you wanna say that its only because of the Amplification that she can get it to that level, Salter and Seiba still exist which still serves as proof of the concept and it likely doesn't matter be cause it's not like were trying to say people with A-Rank Mana Burst should scale to Low 6-B but rather it's just supporting evidence and a basis for Mana burst being an amp for attack Potency

There's "being an amp" and throwing random multiplications/tier upgrades

Using Sasaki as a point of reference kinda doesn't work because she literally says herself that she has the advantage in power, speed etc....but couldn't get to him because his skill just vastly surpasses hers.

She wouldn't struggle if she was like... a bazillion times stronger than him. Or whatever multiplication you want to use. Skill is cool, pretty pointless when your opponent can blitz and one shot you though

"Mana Burst is an A-Ranked Skill it bypasses God Hand Regardless of power" Mana Burst literally is "the increase in performance caused by infusing one's weapons and body with Magical Energy and instantly expelling it." It isn't some special attack in and of itself it just allows people to shove large amounts of power into their bodies and attacks to increase their performance it's even stated that using Mana burst a stick can become a weapon of great power. So idk what distinction you're trying to make but it likely doesn't exist.

recreating the effect of a jet burst by expending large amounts of Magical Energy.
Artoria never killed Heracles with the "enhancing a weapon part", she exclusively did it with mana burst beams (and only once in canon, movies still not canon), which would be A-ranked due to being based on an A-ranked skill. God hand couldn't care less about how strong you are. A planet-busting attack would be stopped if it was B-ranked and a mansion-busting one wouldn't (though it wouldn't hurt him because durability lmao) if it was A-ranked.

The HF movies, Solomon movie, and parts of the Camelot movies are canon.
Nasu accepted the changes made to the HF movies and even appreciated especially the Salter and Berserker fight as it made it more interesting compared to the og VN.
Here is one link:

He doesn't mention anything like canon. Nasu enjoyed Elden Ring, does that mean it's canon to the nasuverse? The HF fight totally contradicts the VN. In the VN, Heracles cutting his legs and throwing himself at Artoria was enough that she had no way to kill him (even though he was nerfed by the shadow) without using excalibur. In the anime, she casually kills him with mana burst.

And the Lancelot vs Agravain, Gawain vs Bedivere, Bedivere vs Lion King, and partially the Tristan fight due to the omission of Hassan of Hundred Faces are canon. Especially the Lancelot fights.
And all of Solomon is canon with Nasu adding extra info about Ritsuka in it.

Gotcha. Mash stomps Lancelot then. And lancelot can stop an A+ ranked np with his sword. Makes sense. It's not supervised by Nasu=it's not canon. That's just how it is.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I might respond to other stuff later, but this stood out to me as the most cringe worthy take I've seen in a while

Gotcha. Mash stomps Lancelot then. And lancelot can stop an A+ ranked np with his sword. Makes sense. It's not supervised by Nasu=it's not canon. That's just how it is.

No, not supervised by Nasu doesn't mean not canon because, if you didn't know, Nasu doesn't have exclusive ownership over Fate, Type Moon does

Things not written by or overseen by Nasu aren't automatically noncanon to Fate, as TM specifically has workers who aren't named Kinoko Nasu and has them write things, or animate things, draw things, give statements, etc

 

[FallenMaou2234]

It's stated to increase strength, resistance and speed. The 3 category where heracles dunked on artoria during their fight

A truck is fragile compared to a tank. Artoria still has B-C-C as base stats, yet Herc who has A-A-A was still wrecking her using mana burst (which she always does). As you pointed out above, parameters rules are a thing. C is 30, B is 40, A is 50. If it so much as doubled her AP, she would reach 80-60-60 compared to herk 50-50-50. She wouldn't be overwhelmed. Forget 3.3x, forget "more than a mere 3.3"

However, the ability of “amplification” itself has not been lost, so Mordred drives her excessive hatred into the sword in the form of prana, thereby amplifying it and allowing her to shoot it as an attack.
It's explicitly NOT just mana burst. Which can be seen with, you know, the fact that she can also use regular mana burst

There's "being an amp" and throwing random multiplications/tier upgrades

She wouldn't struggle if she was like... a bazillion times stronger than him. Or whatever multiplication you want to use. Skill is cool, pretty pointless when your opponent can blitz and one shot you though

recreating the effect of a jet burst by expending large amounts of Magical Energy.
Artoria never killed Heracles with the "enhancing a weapon part", she exclusively did it with mana burst beams (and only once in canon, movies still not canon), which would be A-ranked due to being based on an A-ranked skill. God hand couldn't care less about how strong you are. A planet-busting attack would be stopped if it was B-ranked and a mansion-busting one wouldn't (though it wouldn't hurt him because durability lmao) if it was A-ranked.


He doesn't mention anything like canon. Nasu enjoyed Elden Ring, does that mean it's canon to the nasuverse? The HF fight totally contradicts the VN. In the VN, Heracles cutting his legs and throwing himself at Artoria was enough that she had no way to kill him (even though he was nerfed by the shadow) without using excalibur. In the anime, she casually kills him with mana burst.

Gotcha. Mash stomps Lancelot then. And lancelot can stop an A+ ranked np with his sword. Makes sense. It's not supervised by Nasu=it's not canon. That's just how it is.

Yeah even if he did dunk on her during their fight the fact that she used Mana Burst to remain even remotely close to Hercules despite being weakened by having Shirou as a master is proof enough, if you want an example of how it would go if Artoria was at full power look at Salter vs Berserker. Although I guess that's not Canon because

Your argument basically equates to "Saber should stomp so and so if she had a 3.3× Amp so this is false" but like I said its likely a lot more complicated than that take Raikou v Suzuka Gozen Raikou has D-Rank Agi and Suzuka has A-Rank but because of the immense skill difference she basically skillstomped her and Suzuka couldn't even land a single blow until She started using the NP's/Skills that Literally give her processing power equal to the Mooncell. So there's no reason to assume the same thing didn't happen with Sasaki especially since she just outright states that's the case in Canon

Stats tend not to mean much as indications of who's gonna win a fight too much. Liz fought Yan Qing, Vlad III(extra) fought various other Servants and he has E-Rank agility so even if we were to say she goes from C-C-C to A+-A+-A+ it likely wouldn't amount to too much of a difference in a fight between Servants. Again the Multiplier is just an arbitrary measurement of the power than Mana burst can give in order to justify a "Higher" rating. Like even if you wanna deny the HF movies being canon(which they are lol) you still said it yourself she still poked a hole in him with a Mana burst beam. Whilst God hand was active meaning an A-Rank attack is needed soo...

Even if Clarent Blood Arthur isn't just Mana Burst I told you already that it doesn't really matter either way since it's not like were trying to say anyone with A-Rank Mana Burst is equal to Low 6-B. Again even if we wanted to lowball Berserker even No sells attacks like Caladabolg which are A-Rank Broken Phantasms so being able to pierce his God hand 3 times or with a "Mana Burst beam" is still valid you know

 

[TypeOU]

I might respond to other stuff later, but this stood out to me as the most cringe worthy take I've seen in a while

No, not supervised by Nasu doesn't mean not canon because, if you didn't know, Nasu doesn't have exclusive ownership over Fate, Type Moon does

Things not written by or overseen by Nasu aren't automatically noncanon to Fate, as TM specifically has workers who aren't named Kinoko Nasu and has them write things, or animate things, draw things, give statements, etc

You're right. Not everything is overseen by nasu. Kaleid isn't for sure.

Seriously though, Nasu oversees almost every type-moon related work. Zero? Strange/fake? ALL of fgo? he at least makes sure that they all fit the verse. Anime and movies adaptations? Not so much. There's a reason Overedge being canonized is such a big deal. It's because everything else isn't

Yeah even if he did dunk on her during their fight the fact that she used Mana Burst to remain even remotely close to Hercules despite being weakened by having Shirou as a master is proof enough, if you want an example of how it would go if Artoria was at full power look at Salter vs Berserker. Although I guess that's not Canon because

Artoria's stats WITH SHIROU AS A MASTER are B-C-C. Heracles has A-A-A. Surely you can't be trying to argue that we should both use and ignore parameters rules?

Your argument basically equates to "Saber should stomp so and so if she had a 3.3× Amp so this is false" but like I said its likely a lot more complicated than that take Raikou v Suzuka Gozen Raikou has D-Rank Agi and Suzuka has A-Rank but because of the immense skill difference she basically skillstomped her and Suzuka couldn't even land a single blow until She started using the NP's/Skills that Literally give her processing power equal to the Mooncell. So there's no reason to assume the same thing didn't happen with Sasaki especially since she just outright states that's the case in Canon

Yeah. Raikou. A berserker with EX-ranked mad enhancement alongside mana burst on top of her skills. And even then Suzuka was gonna defeat her with enough time to adapt to her swordsmanship.

Stats tend not to mean much as indications of who's gonna win a fight too much. Liz fought Yan Qing, Vlad III(extra) fought various other Servants and he has E-Rank agility so even if we were to say she goes from C-C-C to A+-A+-A+ it likely wouldn't amount to too much of a difference in a fight between Servants. Again the Multiplier is just an arbitrary measurement of the power than Mana burst can give in order to justify a "Higher" rating. Like even if you wanna deny the HF movies being canon(which they are lol) you still said it yourself she still poked a hole in him with a Mana burst beam. Whilst God hand was active meaning an A-Rank attack is needed soo...

What? You mean that A-ranked skill IS in fact A-ranked? Crazy. But yeah she got past A-ranked durability. That's not gonna get her any AP upgrade. Unless you want to argue for any servant with A STR/END to get, what was it again? a 3.3x buff AT LEAST?

Even if Clarent Blood Arthur isn't just Mana Burst I told you already that it doesn't really matter either way since it's not like were trying to say anyone with A-Rank Mana Burst is equal to Low 6-B. Again even if we wanted to lowball Berserker even No sells attacks like Caladabolg which are A-Rank Broken Phantasms so being able to pierce his God hand 3 times or with a "Mana Burst beam" is still valid you know

... A ranked caladbolg killed heracles in the anime because, from nasu WOG, "he blocked it in the VN because it was a threat but since he didn't here, he lost a life". And that's an A-ranked... attack? That's like the only time BP caladbolg was even used, it doesn't have any feats.

 

[Paul_Frank]

You're right. Not everything is overseen by nasu. Kaleid isn't for sure.

Seriously though, Nasu oversees almost every type-moon related work. Zero? Strange/fake? ALL of fgo? he at least makes sure that they all fit the verse. Anime and movies adaptations? Not so much. There's a reason Overedge being canonized is such a big deal. It's because everything else isn't

looked over Zero, Strange Fake and all of FGO

Yes, he looked at new characters and a rough plot outline for Zero and that's it. For Strange Fake all he does is answer if Narita asks questions kek, he just lets him go wild, FGO, you're insane if you think he was overseeing every chapter of FGO while working on Tsuki R and everything else. There's a reason you can tell when Nasu has worked on or done stuff with or had literally any influence at all on a lostbelt or singularity vs when the authors are allowed to just do whatever. In fact he's literally stated that he hasn't overseen it all

So out of the things you listed, there is precisely 1 that was correct, and even it barely was. The rest are just outright wrong rip. In fact, Nasu oversees Prillya more than some of the other things you listed, having been the one who actually decided the premise would be Illya as a magical girl instead of a Rin and Luvia focused story, looking it over, considering it the Illya route, etc

 

[TypeOU]

Do you know what "overseeing" means? I'm not saying that he wrote them all you know?
And really, mentioning a joke Nasu made about kaleid being the illya route isn't a good look.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

What? You mean that A-ranked skill IS in fact A-ranked? Crazy. But yeah she got past A-ranked durability. That's not gonna get her any AP upgrade. Unless you want to argue for any servant with A STR/END to get, what was it again? a 3.3x buff AT LEAST

Sigh again Mana Burst in and of itself isn't a special attack, it gives people the ability to enhance their attacks and performance by infusing their weapons and body with Magical energy. Whether it's a ranked or not doesn't really have a bearing on that the skill does it just changes the amount of Magic you're able to charge it with. I don't even know how you came up with "Herc Nullifies all attacks below A-Rank therefore the reason they're able to break through god hand is because Mana Burst is Rank A" I mean do you even realize how much of an NLF that is "Even if the attack is a Planet Busting attack if it's B-Rank and below it can't hurt Hercules is what you said right??? Literally the fact that you can take multiple lives at once with certain attacks and NP's should serve as proof enough that power is a factor not just the fact that its A-Rank.

We scale base servant stats to 1/3 of what we scale A-Rank NP's to, Seiba and Salter(thrice) using Mana Burst can pierce God hand and that takes at least an A-Rank NP/A-Ranked attack to pierce and no avarage one at that seeing as how again it no sold Caladabolg. And that attack specifically isn't an NP if that doesn't justify a Upgrade in AP whilst using it then idk what does lol.

... A ranked caladbolg killed heracles in the anime because, from nasu WOG, "he blocked it in the VN because it was a threat but since he didn't here, he lost a life". And that's an A-ranked... attack? That's like the only time BP caladbolg was even used, it doesn't have any feats.

In the anime Herc Literally tanked that shit with zero effort so idk what you're talking about there

Yeah. Raikou. A berserker with EX-ranked mad enhancement alongside mana burst on top of her skills. And even then Suzuka was gonna defeat her with enough time to adapt to her swordsmanship.

Yeah, so let's also take a look at sasaki's skill yeah we know that Saber claims she's Superior physically but terms of speed statistically Sasaki is A+ which is above Saber. Add on to that his vastly superior skill, Minds Eye Fake and the fact that he had Higher ground and we can make a case no. This is also discounting the fact that Saber claimed she had the Superior speed despite Sasaki possessing an A+ Rank in AGI so like again that kinda proves my point that it's a little more complicated than that

Artoria's stats WITH SHIROU AS A MASTER are B-C-C. Heracles has A-A-A. Surely you can't be trying to argue that we should both use and ignore parameters rules?

Ummm probably not, because she only uses Mana burst for certain movements and attacks I forgot to address this earlier but the cope that "Artoria is always using Mana burst" Probably doesn't hold up cause the skill itself consumes copious amounts of Mana which her master cannot provide and she cannot replenish she Literally eats and sits still all the time so as to not consume any Mana. Shirou would literally get drained dry if she used Mana burst all the time. Also Mad Enhancement GG

 

[Paul_Frank]

Do you know what "overseeing" means? I'm not saying that he wrote them all you know?

Yeah but he just outright didn't oversee the things you said (and has even said so himself), with the exception of Zero, and if you're considering that level of involvement overseeing, then the anime and movies are definitely overseen by him too, especially when he also says he considers them different continuity versions of the VN

And really, mentioning a joke Nasu made about kaleid being the illya route isn't a good look.

Crazy how that wasn't the main part 4head, read the first part where he literally chose the premise of the series, that's more involvement and overseeing than he did for quite literally anything else you mentioned, aside from the LBs and chapters he wrote himself, so as I said, he 'oversaw' Prillya more than basically everything else you mentioned, and aside from that, as my first comment said, him overseeing it isn't even needed for it to be canon

Consider how big of a company TM is, and how many writers there are, how many anime projects they have, games, etc. Do you think Nasu, while writing stuff himself answering questions for certain writers sometimes, doing interviews etc, has time to oversee every project? That's just an insane take, so no, TM does not require Nasu to oversee or write things for them to be canon.

 

[TypeOU]

Sigh again Mana Burst in and of itself isn't a special attack, it gives people the ability to enhance their attacks and performance by infusing their weapons and body with Magical energy. Whether it's a ranked or not doesn't really have a bearing on that the skill does it just changes the amount of Magic you're able to charge it with. I don't even know how you came up with "Herc Nullifies all attacks below A-Rank therefore the reason they're able to break through god hand is because Mana Burst is Rank A" I mean do you even realize how much of an NLF that is "Even if the attack is a Planet Busting attack if it's B-Rank and below it can't hurt Hercules is what you said right??? Literally the fact that you can take multiple lives at once with certain attacks and NP's should serve as proof enough that power is a factor not just the fact that its A-Rank.

Dude I'm literally quoting FSN:
“That thing is a concept that can nullify even a Noble Phantasm that destroys the world, if it is below an A ranking.”
Are you really trying to make a fate CRT without even knowing how one of the most well known noble phantasm works?
And the fact that you could look at a blast of energy and think "oh yeah, that's definitively a normal attack enhanced by mana burst" is arguably worse.

We scale base servant stats to 1/3 of what we scale A-Rank NP's to, Seiba and Salter(thrice) using Mana Burst can pierce God hand and that takes at least an A-Rank NP/A-Ranked attack to pierce and no avarage one at that seeing as how again it no sold Caladabolg. And that attack specifically isn't an NP if that doesn't justify a Upgrade in AP whilst using it then idk what does lol.

Q: Berserker took no damage from Archer's A-rank Noble Phantasm "Broken Phantasm" (Caladbolg), is it ineffective due to Berserk's Noble Phantasm, or was he simply able to withstand it naturally? <Not Mr. Shanoa>

Nasu: Oh, that. In the original work it was like "Even though up until then none of the attacks had been worth dodging, this one would have been fatal, so Berserker counters → the resulting explosion from the Noble Phantasm is devastating." Yet in the anime version it was handled as "Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates," which may be something to think about. In all he lost 2 lives because of it.
Takeuchi: Oh, so that's why God Hand in the anime version needed 3 days to recover!

sure as hell no selled it. No selled it so hard it killed him.

In the anime Herc Literally tanked that shit with zero effort so idk what you're talking about there

"Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates,"

Yeah, so let's also take a look at sasaki's skill yeah we know that Saber claims she's Superior physically but terms of speed statistically Sasaki is A+ which is above Saber. Add on to that his vastly superior skill, Minds Eye Fake and the fact that he had Higher ground and we can make a case no. This is also discounting the fact that Saber claimed she had the Superior speed despite Sasaki possessing an A+ Rank in AGI so like again that kinda proves my point that it's a little more complicated than that

You're arguing that she would get an "at least" 3.3x buff with mana burst. Their swords clashed. By your standard, he should just instantly die whenever they clashed, but he clearly didn't.

Ummm probably not, because she only uses Mana burst for certain movements and attacks I forgot to address this earlier but the cope that "Artoria is always using Mana burst" Probably doesn't hold up cause the skill itself consumes copious amounts of Mana which her master cannot provide and she cannot replenish she Literally eats and sits still all the time so as to not consume any Mana. Shirou would literally get drained dry if she used Mana burst all the time. Also Mad Enhancement GG

B ranked ME is only 1 rank-up in physical stats. 60 is still lower than whatever you wants artoria to be.
And yes. She does use it constantly against Heracles. Source: lmao you literally sent it earlier

Yeah but he just outright didn't oversee the things you said (and has even said so himself), with the exception of Zero, and if you're considering that level of involvement overseeing, then the anime and movies are definitely overseen by him too, especially when he also says he considers them different continuity versions of the VN

1. nasu mentioned in an interview that he would stop overseeing minor events like summers and only do it with major events until lb6 is release
2. "what is the color of your blood" fate/zero
3. he constantly mentions things he asked narita to change.

and lmao you really think that "commenting on it once after it's released" equates to overseeing the animes.

Crazy how that wasn't the main part 4head, read the first part where he literally chose the premise of the series, that's more involvement and overseeing than he did for quite literally anything else you mentioned, aside from the LBs and chapters he wrote himself, so as I said, he 'oversaw' Prillya more than basically everything else you mentioned, and aside from that, as my first comment said, him overseeing it isn't even needed for it to be canon

1. Source?
2. "wouldn't you rather do it with illya" isn't overseeing. Minase literally mentioned in the link I sent before that he screwed with canon but that it doesn't matter because prillya isn't.

Consider how big of a company TM is, and how many writers there are, how many anime projects they have, games, etc. Do you think Nasu, while writing stuff himself answering questions for certain writers sometimes, doing interviews etc, has time to oversee every project?

Nasu is a ridiculously fast writer. If anything, it would be weirder if he only wrote his own works.

 

[Paul_Frank]

1. nasu mentioned in an interview that he would stop overseeing minor events like summers and only do it with major events until lb6 is release
2. "what is the color of your blood" fate/zero
3. he constantly mentions things he asked narita to change.

What do the first two points supposedly address? And as for what he asks Narita to change, that is, as I said, typically just after he's asked something. He has explicitly said he just lets Narita do whatever he wants, the times he does have him do something is when Narita asks a question. I.e "what should Enkidu's stats be" and then Nasu bullies him into all As.

If the first point means you think he looked at and is involved in everything but minor events, no

First of all, as one of the writers, I write the chapters assigned to me, the interludes and all the voice lines for the Servants I wrote up, and various events that I was assigned to write.

Next, my job as an editor and supervisor is to write the prologue and epilogue for each chapter, as well as the parts of each chapter that are central to the overarching plot. For example, in Part 1, I took charge of directing Roman’s, da Vinci’s, and Mash’s lines, as well as their important scenes. For Part 2, I’m writing the lines for Director Gordolf, child da Vinci, and Sion – the whole base team, basically.

So in part one, he did a good bit of work sure, in part 2 he did lines for Chaldea's team, from lostbelt 2 on, he edits and oversees very little and decides to, and I quote

leave the rest to the writers’ strengths. I already shared with the writers the overall atmosphere for Part 2 by editing the Russia chapter, so I’ve decided that it would be much better to let the writers write the Lostbelt the way want to.

This is because, in his own words

Too many cooks trying to organize the four scenario writers’ work just spoils the broth, after all.

and lmao you really think that "commenting on it once after it's released" equates to overseeing the animes.

No, I think commenting on it multiple times, doing interviews and answering questions about them, and saying he joined the team as a supervisor for them counts as its about as much, if not more than the things you mentioned

Nasu: I joined as a supervisor. The time of production coincided with the creation of Fate/hollow ataraxia," which we had to put priority on. Then, I discussed with the director and the chief scenario writer and decided to use the first storyline of Fate as the base of the anime. I suggested how to separate it into 24 episodes. I joined the meetings as a supervisor.

He also mentions that original scenes are added under their supervision specifically, while otherwise following the original game

Nasu: Sure, but if they have some good gimmicks, they can add it under our agreement. However some elements like magic spells, settings of the world, were deleted since all elements in the original stories could not fit into just 24 episodes.

Now before you try to for some reason say this only applies to the Deen anime, pause, think for a moment, and realize there's no reason they'd oversee the anime that did worse and not the one made by a bigger better studio that ended up more popular, or the movies that came from that same studio years later

1. Source?

The first tankoubun of Prillya, Hiroyama says it

2. "wouldn't you rather do it with illya" isn't overseeing. Minase literally mentioned in the link I sent before that he screwed with canon but that it doesn't matter because prillya isn't.

No, he said it has some different rules and isn't the exact same as the original, so people stop pointing out differences., not that it isn't canon, that's the least logical interpretation of what he said. And specifically choosing the entire premise of the manga is absolutely overseeing. You're definitely understating how much of a difference Nasu choosing to make it an Illya magical girl series, as opposed to Rin and Luvia in London truly is. That's beyond overseeing, that's just choosing the story outright.

Nasu is a ridiculously fast writer. If anything, it would be weirder if he only wrote his own works.

Actual insane person take. I can't believe Tsuki R having half of it written after over a decade is writing ridiculously fast.

Even ignoring that take, your own argument is "he oversees basically every TM work, but not the anime or movies because I say so"

So you just assume and assert that he oversaw everything else, despite evidence to the contrary, but don't accept that he oversaw the anime and movies despite evidence he did, galaxy brain

 

[Mageman460]

My major issues with this.
It is Mana Burst and Mordred's hatred that brings Clarent up to A+.
This makes various servants with Mana Burst above Gawain with Numeral. Which doesn't make sense for most servants. Especially with Gawain being flat out called nigh unbeatable with Numeral active.

Also, can we get proof that different versions of Mana Bursts are just as powerful if not more powerful? I remember seeing Raikou and Karna's are, but not sure about the others.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Q: Berserker took no damage from Archer's A-rank Noble Phantasm "Broken Phantasm" (Caladbolg), is it ineffective due to Berserk's Noble Phantasm, or was he simply able to withstand it naturally? <Not Mr. Shanoa>

Nasu: Oh, that. In the original work it was like "Even though up until then none of the attacks had been worth dodging, this one would have been fatal, so Berserker counters → the resulting explosion from the Noble Phantasm is devastating." Yet in the anime version it was handled as "Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates," which may be something to think about. In all he lost 2 lives because of it.
Takeuchi: Oh, so that's why God Hand in the anime version needed 3 days to recover!

sure as hell no selled it. No selled it so hard it killed him.

"Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates,"

You should probably pick one cause Nasu apparently didn't have anything to do with the Anime so it's Non-Canon but his interview that directly conflicts with what was stated still takes precedence??

You're arguing that she would get an "at least" 3.3x buff with mana burst. Their swords clashed. By your standard, he should just instantly die whenever they clashed, but he clearly didn't.

B ranked ME is only 1 rank-up in physical stats. 60 is still lower than whatever you wants artoria to be.
And yes. She does use it constantly against Heracles. Source: lmao you literally sent it earlier

You mean the "physically fragile" statement from the mana Burst Mats?? You sure took that out of context. But whatever I guess oh and you do Realize that Berserkers strength stat is A+ and his AGI is A Rank too no?? Mad Enhancment by your statement would take those to A++ and A+ Saber is B-C-C And she would go to A+AA momentarily when mana burst is activated and this is even more consistent because when she gets a decent master and her usual power back (As salter) she's stated to be on par with Herc physically and basically shit stomps him via Mana Mana spams. Also Herc doesn't have to rely on momentary boosts in strength or speed either lol so the math is actually mathing a little more than you think.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

My major issues with this.
It is Mana Burst and Mordred's hatred that brings Clarent up to A+.
This makes various servants with Mana Burst above Gawain with Numeral. Which doesn't make sense for most servants. Especially with Gawain being flat out called nigh unbeatable with Numeral active.

Also, can we get proof that different versions of Mana Bursts are just as powerful if not more powerful? I remember seeing Raikou and Karna's are, but not sure about the others.

Well,I have specifically said that Using Mordred's CBA isn't for the purpose of making it so People with Mana Burst scale up to Low 6-B but rather to serve as a basis for Mana Burst ranking up attacks. And with regards to Mana Burst it's the same skill the only thing that differes is simply the form it's discharged in (Light, Lightning, Flame etc...) we do the same thing with Authorities so yeah

 

[Paul_Frank]

Authorities is a weird example to equate it to here since those do just explictly all exist in the same scale with eachother

Also, can we get proof that different versions of Mana Bursts are just as powerful if not more powerful? I remember seeing Raikou and Karna's are, but not sure about the others.

Mana bursts of people aren't usually compared directly, but as said above they aren't like, different skills, they're different spins on the same skill (Mana Burst) featuring a different element or modifier usually

 

[Mageman460]

Well,I have specifically said that Using Mordred's CBA isn't for the purpose of making it so People with Mana Burst scale up to Low 6-B but rather to serve as a basis for Mana Burst ranking up attacks. And with regards to Mana Burst it's the same skill the only thing that differes is simply the form it's discharged in (Light, Lightning, Flame etc...) we do the same thing with Authorities so yeah

I'm saying Mordred's excessive hatred and mana burst together rank Clarent up from C to A+.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Authorities is a weird example to equate it to here since those do just explictly all exist in the same scale with eachother


Mana bursts of people aren't usually compared directly, but as said above they aren't like, different skills, they're different spins on the same skill (Mana Burst) featuring a different element or modifier usually

Goddamit just let me save face here
Yeah probably was the wrong example to use I guess

I'm saying Mordred's excessive hatred and mana burst together rank Clarent up from C to A+.

Technically it's just the Mana Burst and the Amplification ability of clarent that let it go all the way to A+ cause Her hatred takes the form of Mana not that her Mana and Hatred are two separate forms of power. Also I guess I should probably edit the OP to make it so 3.3 is a Max multiplier not minimum lol that way all of them can all be happy

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honestly i'm more trusting on what Paul has delivered in this thread, but i'm still not going to agreeing this yet
Still waiting for Crimson input because this revision made you guys having a civil wars and i don't need your civil wars

 

[Vietthai96]

Tbh, if i have time probably revise the Servant Physiology page with general servant power and some specific class-abilities like all Saber have Stats Amp due to Mana Burst, all Berserker will have Berserk Mode, etc........

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Tbh, if i have time probably revise the Servant Physiology page with general servant power and some specific class-abilities like all Saber have Stats Amp due to Mana Burst, all Berserker will have Berserk Mode, etc........

Good idea, but will taking too much time lel

 

[TypeOU]

What do the first two points supposedly address?

FGO and zero obviously.

And as for what he asks Narita to change, that is, as I said, typically just after he's asked something. He has explicitly said he just lets Narita do whatever he wants, the times he does have him do something is when Narita asks a question. I.e "what should Enkidu's stats be" and then Nasu bullies him into all As.

the wiki lists strange/fake as one of the works nasu supervises for a reason.
Here's an unembellished excerpt of Nasu's dialogue when I requested the supervisor check for the volume:
from volume 7 afterword

If the first point means you think he looked at and is involved in everything but minor events, no

So in part one, he did a good bit of work sure, in part 2 he did lines for Chaldea's team, from lostbelt 2 on, he edits and oversees very little and decides to, and I quote


This is because, in his own words

you're really ignoring half of his words here just because it's convenient huh. Here's the full quote for reference
[B]Kajita: [/B]Come to think about it, the fact that so many different character designs can come together without looking out of place is proof of having a strong setting. Alright then, from here I want to ask again about the roles and tasks you hold in FGO. Would that be alright? [B]Nasu: [/B]Of course. Here I want to answer one of the big questions that players hold: “What exactly does Kinoko Nasu do outside of supervision and editing?” First of all, as one of the writers, I write the chapters assigned to me, the interludes and all the voice lines for the Servants I wrote up, and various events that I was assigned to write. Next, my job as an editor and supervisor is to write the prologue and epilogue for each chapter, as well as the parts of each chapter that are central to the overarching plot. For example, in Part 1, I took charge of directing Roman’s, da Vinci’s, and Mash’s lines, as well as their important scenes. For Part 2, I’m writing the lines for Director Gordolf, child da Vinci, and Sion – the whole base team, basically. Other than that, there’s also overseeing the writer’s finished scripts, editing and adjusting text as fitting. To give an example, for event scenarios I edit about 20%, for main scenarios about 30%. To go into more detail, from Lostbelt 2 onwards, I’ve only been editing about 10%, and just leave the rest to the writers’ strengths. I already shared with the writers the overall atmosphere for Part 2 by editing the Russia chapter, so I’ve decided that it would be much better to let the writers write the Lostbelt the way want to. Finally, as director, I’m also in charge of making the overall schedule and suggesting the content of events, as well as edits and adjustments to various game data.
still don't see it? Let me point out the relevant parts
“What exactly does Kinoko Nasu do [B]outside of supervision[/B] and editing?”

Other than that, there’s also overseeing the writer’s finished scripts, editing and adjusting text as fitting. To give an example, for event scenarios I edit about 20%, for main scenarios about 30%. To go into more detail, from Lostbelt 2 onwards, I’ve only been editing about 10%,

Finally, as director, I’m also in charge of making the overall schedule and suggesting the content of events, as well as edits and adjustments to various game data.
then
The DW staff have also gotten used to writing for [I]Fate/[/I], so I get lovely pieces of writing that I can give the OK to immediately. It really makes my job easier.
But hey, let's conveniently ignore all of that amirite.

No, I think commenting on it multiple times, doing interviews and answering questions about them, and saying he joined the team as a supervisor for them counts as its about as much, if not more than the things you mentioned


He also mentions that original scenes are added under their supervision specifically, while otherwise following the original game


Now before you try to for some reason say this only applies to the Deen anime, pause, think for a moment, and realize there's no reason they'd oversee the anime that did worse and not the one made by a bigger better studio that ended up more popular, or the movies that came from that same studio years later

that's for the SN anime back in 2006. The one we got a lot of things (like overedge) from. What did HF give us again? UBW? Zero? The apocrypha anime? Besides inconsistencies I mean. I would expect nasu to have different standards between 2006, aka 2 years after FSN release and 201X

The first tankoubun of Prillya, Hiroyama says it

alright, fun trivia I guess. "Hiroyama had 2 ideas and Nasu chose one" isn't quite what I would call supervision but it's something.

No, he said it has some different rules and isn't the exact same as the original, so people stop pointing out differences., not that it isn't canon, that's the least logical interpretation of what he said. And specifically choosing the entire premise of the manga is absolutely overseeing. You're definitely understating how much of a difference Nasu choosing to make it an Illya magical girl series, as opposed to Rin and Luvia in London truly is. That's beyond overseeing, that's just choosing the story outright.

that's a binary choice with no information but the premise of the mangas. Supervision would be Nasu checking it before it's published, which he does with other works.

Actual insane person take. I can't believe Tsuki R having half of it written after over a decade is writing ridiculously fast.

Implying that he spent 5 years writing it nonstop. But you know what he did? He wrote a nearly FSN-sized novel in a matter of months at most because he really liked a moth man. He wrote the kohaku route (and probably changed the rest) because Takeuchi really likes maids in a matter of weeks. But nah, clearly it must have taken him 5 years to write 2 routes.

Even ignoring that take, your own argument is "he oversees basically every TM work, but not the anime or movies because I say so"

So you just assume and assert that he oversaw everything else, despite evidence to the contrary, but don't accept that he oversaw the anime and movies despite evidence he did, galaxy brain

So you just assume and assert that he oversaw everything else, despite evidence to of it, but don't accept that he oversaw the anime and movies despite evidence he didn't, galaxy brain
fixed it for you

You should probably pick one cause Nasu apparently didn't have anything to do with the Anime so it's Non-Canon but his interview that directly conflicts with what was stated still takes precedence??

Yes word of god precedes word-of-rin-who-doesn't-know-how-god-hand-works-from-a-non-canon-anime

You mean the "physically fragile" statement from the mana Burst Mats?? You sure took that out of context. But whatever I guess oh and you do Realize that Berserkers strength stat is A+ and his AGI is A Rank too no?? Mad Enhancment by your statement would take those to A++ and A+ Saber is B-C-C And she would go to A+AA momentarily when mana burst is activated and this is even more consistent because when she gets a decent master and her usual power back (As salter) she's stated to be on par with Herc physically and basically shit stomps him via Mana Mana spams. Also Herc doesn't have to rely on momentary boosts in strength or speed either lol so the math is actually mathing a little more than you think.

Do you just not know how stats work?
1. I already mentioned it earlier. A+ is from valor, which is explicitly stated not to work for servants affected by mad enhancement. Not only that but it's exclusively for hand to hand combat anyway, not stone slab to sword
2.a modificator is a x2, a rank up is +10. "a rank-up" from A isn't A+, it's a hypothetical "60"

the VN, which takes precedence over some movie, explicitly depicts heracles as still being capable of shitstomping artoria if she doesn't pull out excalibur even while super nerfed by the mud + after cutting his own limbs

Tbh, if i have time probably revise the Servant Physiology page with general servant power and some specific class-abilities like all Saber have Stats Amp due to Mana Burst, all Berserker will have Berserk Mode, etc........

not all sabers have mana burst

 

[Paul_Frank]

FGO and zero obviously.

the wiki lists strange/fake as one of the works nasu supervises for a reason.

Okay, and what's the reason then? Where has it been said that Nasu, who has gone on record to say he let's Narita do whatever he wants in SF, and break any rules, supervises it like you think he does? Where has it been said, that the Nasu who only either answers questions, or encourages Narita to make it even more insane, is supervising and editing or whatever?

you're really ignoring half of his words here just because it's convenient huh. Here's the full quote for reference
[B]Kajita: [/B]Come to think about it, the fact that so many different character designs can come together without looking out of place is proof of having a strong setting. Alright then, from here I want to ask again about the roles and tasks you hold in FGO. Would that be alright? [B]Nasu: [/B]Of course. Here I want to answer one of the big questions that players hold: “What exactly does Kinoko Nasu do outside of supervision and editing?” First of all, as one of the writers, I write the chapters assigned to me, the interludes and all the voice lines for the Servants I wrote up, and various events that I was assigned to write. Next, my job as an editor and supervisor is to write the prologue and epilogue for each chapter, as well as the parts of each chapter that are central to the overarching plot. For example, in Part 1, I took charge of directing Roman’s, da Vinci’s, and Mash’s lines, as well as their important scenes. For Part 2, I’m writing the lines for Director Gordolf, child da Vinci, and Sion – the whole base team, basically. Other than that, there’s also overseeing the writer’s finished scripts, editing and adjusting text as fitting. To give an example, for event scenarios I edit about 20%, for main scenarios about 30%. To go into more detail, from Lostbelt 2 onwards, I’ve only been editing about 10%, and just leave the rest to the writers’ strengths. I already shared with the writers the overall atmosphere for Part 2 by editing the Russia chapter, so I’ve decided that it would be much better to let the writers write the Lostbelt the way want to. Finally, as director, I’m also in charge of making the overall schedule and suggesting the content of events, as well as edits and adjustments to various game data.
still don't see it? Let me point out the relevant parts
“What exactly does Kinoko Nasu do [B]outside of supervision[/B] and editing?”

Other than that, there’s also overseeing the writer’s finished scripts, editing and adjusting text as fitting. To give an example, for event scenarios I edit about 20%, for main scenarios about 30%. To go into more detail, from Lostbelt 2 onwards, I’ve only been editing about 10%,

Finally, as director, I’m also in charge of making the overall schedule and suggesting the content of events, as well as edits and adjustments to various game data.
then
The DW staff have also gotten used to writing for [I]Fate/[/I], so I get lovely pieces of writing that I can give the OK to immediately. It really makes my job easier.
But hey, let's conveniently ignore all of that amirite.

Yes, let's ignore all of it as none of it changes what was said kek. It's a lot of fluff around the statements so I cut it out, as even with it, it doesn't change what I said at all about how limited he outright says his job is, so nice job bloating the thread I guess, congrats?

that's for the SN anime back in 2006. The one we got a lot of things (like overedge) from. What did HF give us again? UBW? Zero? The apocrypha anime? Besides inconsistencies I mean. I would expect nasu to have different standards between 2006, aka 2 years after FSN release and 201X

"Nasu only supervised the anime that did worse and not the one from a better studio, or the movies that came out after that studio made Fate popular to a wider audience"

There's no way for that statement to not be absurd. What did the animes give us? I don't know, why don't you ask Mr. Kinoko Nasu who overlooked them, is credited for them, has talked about and done interviews regarding them multiple times, given WoG regarding the anime, and has gone on record to say he considers them their own timeline basically.

alright, fun trivia I guess. "Hiroyama had 2 ideas and Nasu chose one" isn't quite what I would call supervision but it's something.

that's a binary choice with no information but the premise of the mangas. Supervision would be Nasu checking it before it's published, which he does with other works.

"Picking the premise of the manga means nothing, but looking at a list of characters counts"

This is your argument currently, it also assumes for some reason, that Hiroyama just sat in a room with Nasu, gave no information at all about the premise, and basically had him flip a coin.

Additionally, with your idea of "Nasu oversees everything but small events in FGO" (which is wrong), that means he oversaw all of the Prillya events, and Solomon, where Illya and Chloe show up because we met them in the event, crazy I know.

Implying that he spent 5 years writing it nonstop. But you know what he did? He wrote a nearly FSN-sized novel in a matter of months at most because he really liked a moth man. He wrote the kohaku route (and probably changed the rest) because Takeuchi really likes maids in a matter of weeks. But nah, clearly it must have taken him 5 years to write 2 routes.

So you're instead saying that, rather than just taking forever to write half of Tsuki R, it took him forever because he was working on other projects? Almost like gasp, he doesn't have time to work on everything at the same time like you tried to imply

So you just assume and assert that he oversaw everything else, despite evidence to of it, but don't accept that he oversaw the anime and movies despite evidence he didn't, galaxy brain
fixed it for you

The sheer copium rip, there's no hope for him

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Do you just not know how stats work?
1. I already mentioned it earlier. A+ is from valor, which is explicitly stated not to work for servants affected by mad enhancement. Not only that but it's exclusively for hand to hand combat anyway, not stone slab to sword
2.a modificator is a x2, a rank up is +10. "a rank-up" from A isn't A+, it's a hypothetical "60"

the VN, which takes precedence over some movie, explicitly depicts heracles as still being capable of shitstomping artoria if she doesn't pull out excalibur even while super nerfed by the mud + after cutting his own limbs

I don't even know where you pulled that "Rank Up is a +10" because the progression of Ranks Goes E,D,C,B,A then A+,A++, A+++ and then EX. So it may have just been a plus 10 if it was C or D since it goes up in 10 as it progresses from each rank but after A the next Rank is A+ lol a Rank up isn't explicitly stated to be a +10 it's simply that the difference between Ranks E to A sequentially is a +10 and no I'm not talking about Valor dude his strength Statistic is Literally A+ lol

Dude I'm literally quoting FSN:
“That thing is a concept that can nullify even a Noble Phantasm that destroys the world, if it is below an A ranking.”
Are you really trying to make a fate CRT without even knowing how one of the most well known noble phantasm works?
And the fact that you could look at a blast of energy and think "oh yeah, that's definitively a normal attack enhanced by mana burst" is arguably worse.

Well pretty convenient statement considering almost all world destroying weapons are vastly above B-rank kek

Forgot to address this and ye because Oh it LITERALLY IS she can strengthen her body to produce the equivalent of A-rank attacks hence how she was able to put scratches without using her discharge ability and then she can discharge her magical energy like with Saber alter. Those are two different things idk why you're trying to equate the two

Anyways please listen to me this time yeah??. God hand nullifies things based on rank and then when you kill him he becomes even more resistant to attacks to the point that its cited that the same attack will not work on him twice. So, if you want to kill Herc more than once with a skill that's A-rank and has already killed him once?? it's simple use a more powerful A-rank attack and it's at THAT point that the power of the NP or attack comes into play. Salter killed him on three separate occasions using mana burst which is an A-rank skill that can produce A-rank attacks if she killed him once she'd need to produce an even more powerful A-Rank attack.

It's obvious that power is also a factor here because certain A-rank NP's can pierce god hand and not kill him instantly e.g when he gets turned into a pin cushion by Gil and there are others that can take one life with a single attack like with Saber Alter and there are other weapons even more powerful like Caliburn or Excalibur Morgan that can take Multiple lives with a single attack. So idk if you're just choosing to ignore that but again the power of an NP definitely is a factor here.

 

[TypeOU]

Okay, and what's the reason then? Where has it been said that Nasu, who has gone on record to say he let's Narita do whatever he wants in SF, and break any rules, supervises it like you think he does? Where has it been said, that the Nasu who only either answers questions, or encourages Narita to make it even more insane, is supervising and editing or whatever?

I... I literally sent a quote of narita saying that nasu does a supervisor check

Yes, let's ignore all of it as none of it changes what was said kek. It's a lot of fluff around the statements so I cut it out, as even with it, it doesn't change what I said at all about how limited he outright says his job is, so nice job bloating the thread I guess, congrats?

He explicitly says that he supervises everything (three times at that) and edits about 10% of the script nowadays. Truly some peak copium you got there

"Nasu only supervised the anime that did worse and not the one from a better studio, or the movies that came out after that studio made Fate popular to a wider audience"

There's no way for that statement to not be absurd. What did the animes give us? I don't know, why don't you ask Mr. Kinoko Nasu who overlooked them, is credited for them, has talked about and done interviews regarding them multiple times, given WoG regarding the anime, and has gone on record to say he considers them their own timeline basically.

so nothing? Unless you really do think that elden ring is canon to the nasuverse

"Picking the premise of the manga means nothing, but looking at a list of characters counts"

This is your argument currently, it also assumes for some reason, that Hiroyama just sat in a room with Nasu, gave no information at all about the premise, and basically had him flip a coin.

No. It assumes that just choosing the premise of a manga doesn't mean you actively make sure that it matches the verse. Remember that time kaleid thought that Bazett was Ciel level? And nasu had to point out after it was published that bazett isn't in fact on that level at all? Sure seems like a lot of not being supervised here.

Additionally, with your idea of "Nasu oversees everything but small events in FGO" (which is wrong), that means he oversaw all of the Prillya events, and Solomon, where Illya and Chloe show up because we met them in the event, crazy I know.

Yeah, and? Those are events we can specifically rule out as non-canon due to being collabs with a non-canon works. And a cameo that couldn't matter last. Basic supervision is a prerequisite, not irrevocable proof.

So you're instead saying that, rather than just taking forever to write half of Tsuki R, it took him forever because he was working on other projects? Almost like gasp, he doesn't have time to work on everything at the same time like you tried to imply

I'm saying it took him forever because he didn't give 2 ***** about tsukihime remake. He literally stopped working on it for 5 years.

The sheer copium rip, there's no hope for him

true! though I'm not sure why you would talk about yourself like that

I don't even know where you pulled that "Rank Up is a +10" because the progression of Ranks Goes E,D,C,B,A then A+,A++, A+++ and then EX. So it may have just been a plus 10 if it was C or D since it goes up in 10 as it progresses from each rank but after A the next Rank is A+ lol a Rank up isn't explicitly stated to be a +10 it's simply that the difference between Ranks E to A sequentially is a +10

I shouldn't even have to explain that, and yet here I am. You're ******* stupid if you think that the rank after A is A+. Did you forget that B+, C+ etc... exist? E is 10, D is 20 etc... until A becomes 50, and you think a rank up is magically gonna start adding 50 all of a sudden? Use your common sense. It's still 10 more. So a rank up from A is 60. not A+.

and no I'm not talking about Valor dude his strength Statistic is Literally A+ lol

yes. That's how modifications work. They're dependent on a special condition. Say, a skill.

Well pretty convenient statement considering almost all world destroying weapons are vastly above B-rank kek

Hey, I'm not the one who doesn't know how god hand works.

Forgot to address this and ye because Oh it LITERALLY IS she can strengthen her body to produce the equivalent of A-rank attacks hence how she was able to put scratches without using her discharge ability and then she can discharge her magical energy like with Saber alter. Those are two different things idk why you're trying to equate the two

are you having a stroke?

Anyways please listen to me this time yeah??. God hand nullifies things based on rank and then when you kill him he becomes even more resistant to attacks to the point that its cited that the same attack will not work on him twice. So, if you want to kill Herc more than once with a skill that's A-rank and has already killed him once?? it's simple use a more powerful A-rank attack and it's at THAT point that the power of the NP or attack comes into play. Salter killed him on three separate occasions using mana burst which is an A-rank skill that can produce A-rank attacks if she killed him once she'd need to produce an even more powerful A-Rank attack.

in a non-canon movie lmao. As opposed to the VN where she had to pull out excalibur to take one life from a mudded limbless herk. But good to know that you finally admitted that bypassing god hand isn't about AP.

It's obvious that power is also a factor here because certain A-rank NP's can pierce god hand and not kill him instantly e.g when he gets turned into a pin cushion by Gil and there are others that can take one life with a single attack like with Saber Alter and there are other weapons even more powerful like Caliburn or Excalibur Morgan that can take Multiple lives with a single attack. So idk if you're just choosing to ignore that but again the power of an NP definitely is a factor here.

OK and that's relevant to mana burst how? Unless you think that hurting heracles is a super impressive feat, because it isn't. His durability is only A (+1).

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I shouldn't even have to explain that, and yet here I am. You're ******* stupid if you think that the rank after A is A+. Did you forget that B+, C+ etc... exist? E is 10, D is 20 etc... until A becomes 50, and you think a rank up is magically gonna start adding 50 all of a sudden? Use your common sense. It's still 10 more. So a rank up from A is 60. not A+.

pfft you forget where A-rank is specifically noted to be the last "normal" rank Lol because if a rank up after that entailed the same things as before then EX should logically be +10 since it's technically the next rank after A and Herc "ranking up" as you say should take him to EX and not just higher into A because that's the same rank buuuuut it kinda doesn't work like that soooooo, so much for that I guess. Use your common sense huh?? hahaha nice one dude.

yes. That's how modifications work. They're dependent on a special condition. Say, a skill.

So you're saying his strength stat gets amped by a skill that is specifically noted to be unable to take effect because of Mad enhancement?? Sounds pretty contradictory to me and there's nothing that specifies that the special condition boosting Herc's STR stat to A+ is Valor/Bravery. Like I literally can't find a source for that. If you could provide one that would be good. Because given how it works with Achilles his strength stat would probably be A++ in Melee combat cause again that skill is specifically noted to not be active as a result of mad enhancement

in a non-canon movie lmao. As opposed to the VN where she had to pull out excalibur to take one life from a mudded limbless herk. But good to know that you finally admitted that bypassing god hand isn't about AP.

You're the only one who believes that right now, oh and it is because guess what A-Ranked attacks tend to have A-rank levels of power just thought I might let you know.

OK and that's relevant to mana burst how? Unless you think that hurting heracles is a super impressive feat, because it isn't. His durability is only A (+1).

She killed him 3 times duh, if he becomes resistant to the attack that killed him the first time then you'd need a different A-rank attack altogether orrr you'd need an even more powerful A-rank attack. The former which Salter didn't use and the latter which Salter did on two separate occasions after the first time.

 

[TypeOU]

pfft you forget where A-rank is specifically noted to be the last "normal" rank Lol because if a rank up after that entailed the same things as before then EX should logically be +10 since it's technically the next rank after A and Herc "ranking up" as you say should take him to EX and not just higher into A because that's the same rank buuuuut it kinda doesn't work like that soooooo, so much for that I guess. Use your common sense huh?? hahaha nice one dude.

So you're not even gonna try to pretend you know anything about parameters then?

So you're saying his strength stat gets amped by a skill that is specifically noted to be unable to take effect because of Mad enhancement?? Sounds pretty contradictory to me and there's nothing that specifies that the special condition boosting Herc's STR stat to A+ is Valor/Bravery. Like I literally can't find a source for that. If you could provide one that would be good. Because given how it works with Achilles his strength stat would probably be A++ in Melee combat cause again that skill is specifically noted to not be active as a result of mad enhancement

Source: I have the most basic idea of how fate works. So what if it doesn't work anymore? The + is situational from the start. It being still there despite valor being inactive is fine. And as you so kindly pointed out, Achilles who ALSO has valor at A rank just so happens to have a modificator in strength. What a coincidence amirite.
It's not like burden of proof is on me anyway. modificators are situational, so prove that it applies to anything in his fight against artoria.

You're the only one who believes that right now, oh and it is because guess what A-Ranked attacks tend to have A-rank levels of power just thought I might let you know.

No. I'm pretty sure Nasu believes it too. Can't really disagree when he wrote Heracles as being able to shitstomp saber alter through anything that isn't excalibur in the VN.

She killed him 3 times duh, if he becomes resistant to the attack that killed him the first time then you'd need a different A-rank attack altogether orrr you'd need an even more powerful A-rank attack. The former which Salter didn't use and the latter which Salter did on two separate occasions after the first time.

in a non-canon movie.