Lethal Company and Lethally Bad Pages: A General Content Fix

[Mr. Bambu]

Introduction
Our Lethal Company pages are really, really bad. Like comically terrible. This CRT aims to make them moderately to severely less bad. Thanks.

The Player
My problems with the Player's page are as follows.

• Information Analysis: They have this, but the page seems to imply that the scanning of creatures reveals new information about them. This is not so, it simply shows their entries in the Bestiary. We do not create these bestiary articles by scanning them, we simply gain access to them- this is extremely evident with certain entries such as the Jester, which Sigurd has written in before us. The page should clarify this and list it as "Limited".
• Hacking: They enter a password that does things. I don't think this counts as Hacking. We should outright remove this.
• Sealing: They close doors. C'mon guys. This isn't Sealing. We should remove this.
• Speed: This is baseless. It should be adjusted to Normal Human if we have no justifiable higher rating.
• Stamina: This one is outright false. We run out of Stamina super quickly and significant wounds does indeed prevent us from functioning normally. Average or Below Average are both arguable.

I have some updates too, that need accounted for. Specifically that this needs to include the Shotgun, which is almost definitely 9-B. Could try and do more calcs, particularly of charging enemies that can be killed, maybe. Some spitballing in that department of ideas would be appreciated.

Finally, the page should be renamed. I dislike defaulting to the Player. "Crewmates" or "Employees" would both be preferable in my eyes, especially since the game defaults to a group of them (so there is no entity that is The, capital T, Employee- there's the Employees).

Forest Keeper

• The 8-C rating is literally entirely unjustified. There are no feats on that level in the verse aside from the Leviathan. Lightning being 8-C is not an excuse to make tanking it an 8-C feat, this has been a known phenomenon forever and even real-world humans can be struck by it and live. A GPE calc could be attempted but I really, really doubt they're higher than 9-B. If an actually supported value cannot be generated, the page should be deleted.
• This part is mostly my asking: is the gas bit true? I've never seen it actually do anything. I'd like to see proof.
• We don't traditionally allow for LS gained from one's own mass. "Supporting yourself" is not indicative of how much you can lift, this has been a hotly debated topic in the past and our standards rule against this. Since Leviathan can eat the giants, though, this Class 10 calc is not worthless- it's a feat for the Leviathan. Forest Keepers should scale to being able to eat four Employees, along with their gold, however.

Jester

• It only knows where entities are when it is out of the box. It does not specify this on the page currently.
• Large Size should also specify that this is when it is fully extracted from its box.
• Lifting a person is not Peak Human LS, this value is unsupported.
• This has a References section but no References.

Ghost Girl has her own CRT so I won't touch on her yet. All of these issues need fixed.

Seems Fine: Mr. Bambu, DarkDragonMedeus, Abstractions (all but Hacking), Deagonx, Armorchompy (all but stamina)
Seems Not Fine:

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Roachman40 @Abstractions @Sir_Ovens @PsychoWarper @Jaften

 

[Roachman40]

these CRTS getting lethal...

CRT looks fine to me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Proposals look good to me.

 

[Abstractions]

Hacking: They enter a password that does things. I don't think this counts as Hacking. We should outright remove this

I agree with everything else besides this, only because codes exist as a means to perform the hacking from a gameplay perspective rather than it being necessarily as easy as entering a letter and a number, just like how most games with hacking tend to have it in a considerably easy hacking minigame.

But yeah, the rest is fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In fiction (and real life) hacking is the process of breaking into computers, robots, advanced artificial intelligences and/or software and taking control of the system. The process can be achieved through wireless connections or wired lines or through the addition of equipment (corrupted USB add-ons, nanomachines etc). Some fictions even extend the definitions into hacking things like reality or the human mind. In the latter case that would be a form of mind attack and the former is a form of reality warping. Hacking can also be described as a robot mind attack. Since robots are immune to conventional mind attacks hacking would be the next best thing.

Our page defines hacking as this. We don't do any of this, we input codes that are given to us that effectively flip an on-off switch (briefly, for 2/3 of the things), and it also isn't an ability of the crewmates themselves- we require the terminal to input this, and to learn the codes for things that don't have them literally painted on.

At the very least, it needs a MASSIVE amount of explanation that it's like... nothing. It has literally zero functionality aside from those specific elements and doing one specific thing with them, provided that the Employee has access to the ship.

 

[Abstractions]

We don't do any of this

It seems to abide by this very line:

"... or through the addition of equipment (corrupted USB add-ons, nanomachines etc)"

While it may seem silly, the Terminal fits this definition. As for codes not being painted on objects that's how it is for the turrets and landmines, which we have no evidence for being a part of Company property or anything of the sort, as they exist purely to be deterrents to the player and not hostile entities.

It can be essentially nothing, but it technically does exist. Unlike Sealing which doesn't at all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I don't think figuring out passwords is hacking. Hacking is where you use tools and/or skills to bypass a password system.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It seems to abide by this very line:

"... or through the addition of equipment (corrupted USB add-ons, nanomachines etc)"

While it may seem silly, the Terminal fits this definition. As for codes not being painted on objects that's how it is for the turrets and landmines, which we have no evidence for being a part of Company property or anything of the sort, as they exist purely to be deterrents to the player and not hostile entities.

It can be essentially nothing, but it technically does exist. Unlike Sealing which doesn't at all.

I wouldn't be opposed to the Company as an organization having hacking- because you're right, we have no idea how the Company acquired the codes we're given. My grievance is against the Employees, who just type the things that the Company provides them with to type.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, I don't think figuring out passwords is hacking. Hacking is where you use tools and/or skills to bypass a password system.

It's not even really figuring them out. The two possibilities are:

• The password is painted on them (the doors)
• The terminal says the password next to them on the radar

Passwords are exclusively a letter followed by a number- I'm not even sure if "password" is a suitable term, as it seems more like a designator.

 

[PsychoWarper]

This part is mostly my asking: is the gas bit true? I've never seen it actually do anything. I'd like to see proof.

Yes, I have actually seen it in a game we played together when it ate Wasp iirc, its like these red particles.

Can’t find a better video unfortunately but this short does mention and show a Giant releasing gas.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, I have actually seen it in a game we played together when it ate Wasp iirc, its like these red particles.

Can’t find a better video unfortunately but this short does mention and show a Giant releasing gas.

I know it releases the gas, but I meant whether it actually slowed people caught in it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Deagonx @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @Crabwhale @Maverick_Zero_X I'd like at least one of you to give your opinion on Hacking: if you agree with Aly, that brings it to a draw and I'll simply not push it. If you agree it shouldn't be considered Hacking, then it ought to be removed. I don't think I need to summarize since the thread is short as hell.

I'll ping some users of the Lethal Company verse too, why the **** not: @King_Dom470 @ShockingPsychic @Keeweed @AThe1412 @TheMassivlyUnkn0wn (literally everyone who ever commented on the general discussion thread)

 

[Deagonx]

With regard to hacking the first thing that comes to mind is Fallout games. For instance, Fallout 3 terminal hacking involves guessing where the terminal tells you how many letters were correct. It's trivially easy.

Or in TES 4 Oblivion lockpicking is a very easy minigame.

I believe, however, the intention is not for us to think the characters are unskilled and are simply fortunate to live in a world where computers are easy to hack or door locks are made by simpleton, but that it serves as a layer of Abstraction (heh) between what skill it's meant to represent and what is practical to place between a player and the objective.

I haven't played the game, but my question to Bambu is whether this instance is similar to the above. If it is, I would lean towards keeping it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not guessing. The terminal pulls up the code or designation to input, you type it in, and either the door opens or the trap deactivates (be it a landmine or turret) briefly. We can interact with no other forms of technology.

 

[Deagonx]

Not guessing. The terminal pulls up the code or designation to input, you type it in, and either the door opens or the trap deactivates (be it a landmine or turret) briefly. We can interact with no other forms of technology.

And the code comes from an external source?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And the code comes from an external source?

You'll have to elaborate on what you mean, I think? The code is displayed on the screen. You just type it in, and the on/off status is flipped.

 

[Crabwhale]

"Doctor, did you get the patient's tissue samples from his previous healthcare provider?"

"The company responded. The diagnosis is..."

"Lethal."

 

[Keeweed]

I agree with most the op, the only thing I want to say is that stamina being cartoonishly low in games is a stupidly common gameplay mechanic nowadays. The employees work from 8 am to 12 pm in an extremely physical demanding job, I would say they are slightly above average. Especially since they can continue their job even after being shot a bit and being bitten and slashed at by multiple different monsters. It weakens them, but they still persevere.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree with most the op, the only thing I want to say is that stamina being cartoonishly low in games is a stupidly common gameplay mechanic nowadays. The employees work from 8 am to 12 pm in an extremely physical demanding job, I would say they are slightly above average. Especially since they can continue their job even after being shot a bit and being bitten and slashed at by multiple different monsters. It weakens them, but they still persevere.

It being common isn't really an argument against it.

They aren't physically straining themselves for the entire time, although I would accept that as an argument for at least average. I can compromise for that, drop my stance on Below Average.

The fact that they don't just expire from wounds isn't really a solid enough argument when the game does deliberately show their stamina being kneecapped when suffering from significant enough damage.

So, solid Average is fine with me.

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t see how continuing to do a job with severe injuries would be anything but above average. What average person can continue to do over 12 hours of work after being shot by a shotgun and having their leg chopped on by something that can crush their skull.

It being a common gameplay mechanic is to point out that it can absolutely be a gameplay mechanic to begin with. Especially when it’s unreasonably low for pretty much any normal human.

I would say their work is already more strenuous than most. You have to lift stuff like engines and large metal parts while running across a facility for over 12 hours. I got tired at my real job consistently and that was 8 hours and required much less lifting. I’m not arguing anything superhuman, just above average which is completely warranted in my opinion.

 

[AThe1412]

About the Forest Keepers, Sekiro is another verse I know of that uses natural lightning as its 8-C justification and it has been accepted for a while. Employees and other monsters are consistently oneshotted by the lightning and it is likely more powerful than Earth's lightning as well given that even small metal objects such as a key produce sparks of electricity whenever lightning is about to strike them.

 

[Keeweed]

Sekiro scales to the people that summon it, not the ones that survive it, and even then it was supposed to be downgraded (I would normally think if you have the power to summon it that should be ap, but it’s elemental damage and thus doesn’t scale anyways: rip).

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to surviving lightning, while the lightning in lethal company is unrealistically strong, forest keepers are large and touching the ground. There’s a lot of area and ways for the lightning to just conduct into the ground rather than hit them with its full energy. For them to scale they would need to be in the air and fully have it strike them throughout its full duration. And even then last I check we don’t actually even scale characters to that (which I personally find strange since conduction won’t be able to happen, but eh).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don’t see how continuing to do a job with severe injuries would be anything but above average. What average person can continue to do over 12 hours of work after being shot by a shotgun and having their leg chopped on by something that can crush their skull.

It being a common gameplay mechanic is to point out that it can absolutely be a gameplay mechanic to begin with. Especially when it’s unreasonably low for pretty much any normal human.

I would say their work is already more strenuous than most. You have to lift stuff like engines and large metal parts while running across a facility for over 12 hours. I got tired at my real job consistently and that was 8 hours and required much less lifting. I’m not arguing anything superhuman, just above average which is completely warranted in my opinion.

They aren't dead or missing body parts (or even bleeding, based on graphical evidence), and they have counter-feats. That is how I would come to the conclusion of it not being above average.

It could be, but I don't see any reason why we'd take it as any more of a game mechanic than them being able to act despite damage. Those two things are equally frequently used tendencies of games to not make games annoying. So the point is moot, both are equally valid points.

Yeah I just assume you've never worked in a warehouse or factory, then

Average is fine.

About the Forest Keepers, Sekiro is another verse I know of that uses natural lightning as its 8-C justification and it has been accepted for a while. Employees and other monsters are consistently oneshotted by the lightning and it is likely more powerful than Earth's lightning as well given that even small metal objects such as a key produce sparks of electricity whenever lightning is about to strike them.

Sekiro harnesses the lightning as part of an attack. That is different than tanking being hit by it, since, again, normal humans can tank lightning. It has to do with grounding. This isn't a point that's going to be accepted, this is straight up a policy the wiki has discussed many times in the past when other verses experience neuron activation at "LITENIN'! EIGHTCY! EIGHTCY! YEEAEAH!"

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Doctor, did you get the patient's tissue samples from his previous healthcare provider?"

"The company responded. The diagnosis is..."

"Lethal."

I do not like you.

 

[Keeweed]

They absolutely are bleeding. When you receive enough damage you bleed all over the place.

The game specifically revolves around being attacked by monsters. Them being attacked and surviving and continuing their job is baked into the basis of the game.

The shift is specifically 16 freaking hours. 16 hours of work after being mauled at and shot. An overworked warehouse employee (ignoring that I’ve worked at warehouse jobs) can be a job that requires above average stamina. It’s just above average, not superhuman, I can’t see any way the average person could continue to work for 16 hours after getting stabbed or shot.

 

[Armorchompy]

I've seen the arguments but I think above average stamina is fine, you can suffer significant harm and still work half a whole day afterwards (work that includes jumpin' and carrying fairly heavy weights), that seems to me like something that the average person could not do, especially not repeatedly.

Rest seems fine, with the note the Jester can probably get "At least Athletic Human" for easily overpowering the crewmates. Also the verse page does list the Keeper's GPE so no need for deleting.

Could someone link what the actual hacking minigame looks like?

 

[Crabwhale]

I do not like you.

Sure wouldn't like to work at a corporation or a firm with you then. Might turn quite deadly, perhaps even fatal.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I've seen the arguments but I think above average stamina is fine, you can suffer significant harm and still work half a whole day afterwards (work that includes jumpin' and carrying fairly heavy weights), that seems to me like something that the average person could not do, especially not repeatedly.

Rest seems fine, with the note the Jester can probably get "At least Athletic Human" for easily overpowering the crewmates. Also the verse page does list the Keeper's GPE so no need for deleting.

Could someone link what the actual hacking minigame looks like?

It's not really a minigame, lemme find a clip rq.

Here you go.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They absolutely are bleeding. When you receive enough damage you bleed all over the place.

Once you reach a certain threshold, yeah, but that's the same threshold where you are like... specifically severely impaired, such that you can no longer sprint. You need that recovery time after that to continue to act normally.

The game specifically revolves around being attacked by monsters. Them being attacked and surviving and continuing their job is baked into the basis of the game.

Not a single post here argued it wasn't, although I would contend that the basis of the game is moreso that you die. Still, this is irrelevant to the argument.

The shift is specifically 16 freaking hours. 16 hours of work after being mauled at and shot. An overworked warehouse employee (ignoring that I’ve worked at warehouse jobs) can be a job that requires above average stamina. It’s just above average, not superhuman, I can’t see any way the average person could continue to work for 16 hours after getting stabbed or shot.

You can only be shot once and even survive, I don't see how you can look at that and argue it as a stamina feat. Can be, yes, is inherently so, no. I think you underestimate the average person (now whether they'd be willing to do so is a different thought entirely, and I now should make a note to say that if you are being stabbed or impacted at work by eldritch monsters, your ass should unionize or quit).

 

[Keeweed]

Stamina isn’t about purely sprinting though, Stamina is about being able to do stuff in general. Them being hurt enough to be bleeding everywhere and suffering in a way that impairs movement, but still being able to continue on and do their job for over half a day is absolutely a stamina feat that a normal person would never get anywhere close to being able to pull off.

You die from failing to meet your quota eventually is much more the main ending of the game. The game still continues if everyone dies and overall you are supposed to be attacked and still succeed at your job. Your interpretation would imply the employees consistently always die every encounter.

I think you vastly overestimate the average person. Getting shot and continuing, makes a bit of sense, continuing to work for over half a day while bleeding and carrying engines and metal the size of your torso for hours across frozen planets. That’s not normal human. Plus above average human is human stamina, it’s just above the straight regular average human. How would working for 16 hours straight in a literal hostile environment while carrying heavy equipment the entire time not be above average.

Edit: Especially when above average is specifically just Athletic with the new defined stamina ratings. In what universe would lifting an engine, or four gold bars, for an hour not be athletic. Much less all the other stuff you do throughout the game. And that the game is designed for you to lift this stuff for over half a day. You actively need to bring it back to the ship and hording bugs discourage dropping items.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I know how we rate stamina. It is a composite. I am agreeing with average on the basis of severely below average in one department being balanced by another.

I don't really get the point of this paragraph or line of discussion. But, my view is less that employees canonically die every encounter (although many do) and more that it is an expected outcome of an encounter. It is unsurprising.

Agree to disagree, ig. I've already outlined why I don't think they're really above average- I think you're overestimating elements of the feats and downright ignoring or handwaving direct anti-feats.

 

[Keeweed]

There is one anti feat, how long you run, while everything else I’ve mention is the basis and premise of the game. It is specifically designed to have you attacked by monsters, carry large amounts of stuff for long periods of time, and to work for over half a day. The sprint mechanic, which is commonly a gameplay mechanic, should not override all of that. Though, I will leave it at that too.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There is one anti feat, how long you run, while everything else I’ve mention is the basis and premise of the game. It is specifically designed to have you attacked by monsters, carry large amounts of stuff for long periods of time, and to work for over half a day. The sprint mechanic, which is commonly a gameplay mechanic, should not override all of that. Though, I will leave it at that too.

There is the extremely below average run time and the actively recognized debilitating effects of being wounded, compared to a fairly long shift and the fact that they don't die off from singular wounds that don't instantly kill them (which, given game mechanics were brought up earlier, far more indicative of game mechanics than any other facet of this, one feels- this is far more common than such a heavily limited sprint).

I'll leave it there too, if you like.

 

[Keeweed]

I promise this is my last comment on it if that’s your last comment on it (because I would have no reason not to respond to a rebuttal, is what I mean by that) but: Neither me nor you, nor anyone else on this site would be able to complete a 16 hour shift in a freezing tundra after getting mauled by a thumper or being shot by a shotgun that is like 10 feet away. The lethal company employee does. A normal person can’t carrying 140 kg of gold around for over 12 hours straight, the game is actively designed around you being able to do that and actively punishes you for trying to drop the items. Heck I don’t see why just working for 16 hours straight in a job revolving around lifting stuff wouldn’t be athletic anyways. Not inhuman or superhuman, just straight normal athletic is the rating. My brother is a gym nut that goes to the gym every day. I know for a fact he’s not going to be mauled and bleed all over the place, only to just completely ignore that and go on to do a company shift for 16 hours straight.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

why are you promising a final comment if it's meant to continue debate, what is happening

And everyone on the site is capable of running for longer than the Employee can. Plus, about half of the conditions you just mentioned are either misconstrued (the shotgun cannot hit them face-on, only when it grazes you- they can survive precisely one bullet from the turret before dying) or assisted by other statistics (I have no problem with them having resistance to extreme temperatures, and their durability is already above a human's).

Like you're now getting far enough into the weeds of this argument that it's touching on too many other features of the page, I genuinely don't know how you want me to respond lol.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m not doing my final comment because you aren’t doing a final comment. Why would I stop when you are saying I’m wrong. That’s why I made that post. It was to be a final point, but you made another point. You were the one that brought up agree to disagree first; which is why I wanted to say a final point.

 

[Keeweed]

Sorry that last comment didn’t make much sense for a second there, my Google was lagging hard.

Though they get shot enough to bleed everywhere and have their movement severely impaired. It being a graze or not doesn’t matter, the damage is done. The damage you work through which is what makes it a feat, since you are still supposed to do your job. And again my main point was that there short sprint has much more a reason to be a gameplay mechanic (so you just can’t run away from everything) than anything else does. Since everything else is literally what the game is built upon and is made around. The 16 hours comes from the canon shift times, the lifting comes from the main goal of the game, gathering scrap around a building and lugging it to a ship. The enemies injuring you is the threat in the game and what the player is supposed to be dealing with.

 

[AThe1412]

I know at least 5 other videogame characters whose stamina are shown to be well above the average human and yet in-game they can't sprint for longer than 10 seconds. I also know characters who can run for seemingly forever without ever getting tired and those characters don't have infinite stamina.