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Legendary Pokémon Downgrade
- 10,987
- 3,163
- Thread starter
- #162
You don't need to be as strong as a character to survive blows from them.
Drole and Gloxinia scales to their own 23.5 Gigaton feat but they can slightly injure and survive attacks from Unsealed Demon Mark Meliodas who is 43.4 Gigatons.
The main cast of RWBY scales to their own 18.8 Tons feat but they can stagger and survive attacks from the Atlesian Colossus which is 88 Tons.
I can probably find a bit more examples but these are the ones that I remember off the top of my head.
The case with Mewtwo and Zygarde is just like the ones above. Mega Mewtwo was shown to be comparable to the likes of Mega Rayquaza in SMD. His base form is comparable to Deoxys who is stronger than Base Rayquaza. So therefore Mega Mewtwo is comparable if not stronger than Mega Rayquaza who is 420 Zettatons. This is also consistent with him being able to barely hold back and survive attacks from a somewhat amped 50% Zygarde who scales to or is somewhat above 703 Zettatons.
Drole and Gloxinia scales to their own 23.5 Gigaton feat but they can slightly injure and survive attacks from Unsealed Demon Mark Meliodas who is 43.4 Gigatons.
The main cast of RWBY scales to their own 18.8 Tons feat but they can stagger and survive attacks from the Atlesian Colossus which is 88 Tons.
I can probably find a bit more examples but these are the ones that I remember off the top of my head.
The case with Mewtwo and Zygarde is just like the ones above. Mega Mewtwo was shown to be comparable to the likes of Mega Rayquaza in SMD. His base form is comparable to Deoxys who is stronger than Base Rayquaza. So therefore Mega Mewtwo is comparable if not stronger than Mega Rayquaza who is 420 Zettatons. This is also consistent with him being able to barely hold back and survive attacks from a somewhat amped 50% Zygarde who scales to or is somewhat above 703 Zettatons.
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You do not get my point do you?
Mewtwo held off a crunch attack from Zygarde. Crunch is a move that can instantly knock out psychic pokemon thus making it as powerful as all of Zygarde's basic moves that scale to 5-B.
Also there is a COLOSSAL difference with the example you gave me. What you gave me is Mountain and Island level lvl feats which makes it understandable when some of them can harm someone who is just twice as powerful. Here we are talking about blowing up Mercury and blowing up Neptune scales of power. This means that if Mewtwo was 420 zet of power he would've died instantly due to the attack being a fudge ton of times stronger.
Mewtwo held off a crunch attack from Zygarde. Crunch is a move that can instantly knock out psychic pokemon thus making it as powerful as all of Zygarde's basic moves that scale to 5-B.
Also there is a COLOSSAL difference with the example you gave me. What you gave me is Mountain and Island level lvl feats which makes it understandable when some of them can harm someone who is just twice as powerful. Here we are talking about blowing up Mercury and blowing up Neptune scales of power. This means that if Mewtwo was 420 zet of power he would've died instantly due to the attack being a fudge ton of times stronger.
- 10,987
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- Thread starter
- #164
You do realize that type advantage isn't factored in the scaling right? Type advantage has never been a factor in the scaling. So its ridiculous to say Mega Mewtwo scales to the Aura Trio because he temproraily held off a move thats super effective against him. Mega Mewtwo scaling to Mega Rayquaza is much more consistent as they are actually comparable to each other in Super Mystery Dungeon unlike scaling to 50% Zygarde who easily defeated Mega Mewtwo in the manga after getting an unknown amount of amp.
The scale of power doesn't matter the only thing that matters is how big of a difference between the two feats are. The difference between 420 Zettatons and 703 Zettatons is just 1.67x. This difference isn't even bigger than the NNT example which is 1.85x or anywhere close to the RWBY example which is a 4.7x difference.
The scale of power doesn't matter the only thing that matters is how big of a difference between the two feats are. The difference between 420 Zettatons and 703 Zettatons is just 1.67x. This difference isn't even bigger than the NNT example which is 1.85x or anywhere close to the RWBY example which is a 4.7x difference.
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1) Never have i ever talked about the move being super effective against mewtwo (Mewtwo was fighting/psychic at the moment so it hit neutrally.)Peter1129 said:
2) You still do not get my point.
first up i do not get why you think rayqaza feat is more consistent as there is barely any number difference as you say. If one an destroy a mid sized planet then if he blows up a bigger planet then it is completley consistent.
now let me explain. A person who can survive around 20 gigatons while being at a 12 gigaton feat (example) is possible as the damage size and power would be different. Zygarde is strong enough to eradicate sth like Neptune while the rayquaza feat is just strong enough to blow up earth or sth a bit bigger. It does not matter if the numbers are 1.6 times bigger it is the fact that the power is far too different in these cases. A 12 giga beam can hold off a 20 giga beam for a but while a beam that blows up earth wont stand a single chance against a beam that destroys neputne. Look at the power, not the numbers.
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the power to blow up Neptune is like 2.7 Yottatons or more tho
- 10,987
- 3,163
- Thread starter
- #167
Pretty much what Overlord said. Destroying Neptune is 5-A not 5-B. Xerneas' 5-B feat is just 1.67x higher than Mega Rayquaza's 5-B feat that's it. The power difference isn't even that big and this site has always used numbers so I have no idea what you mean by don't look at the numbers.
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Okay sorry. Had a lot to deal with for the past few days so I was completely unable to continue this discussion. Anyways, skimming through this, these are the points that im still arguing:
1.) According to Bulbpedia, Perfect Zygarde exceeds both Yveltal and Xerneas in power. So would the Pokedex just take priority over this one point? I felt this should have been brought up.
2.) Im still disagreeing with Magearna being weaker than Perfect Zygarde. For one, Zygarde only becomes Perfect Zygarde when its absolutely neccessary, not on a whim. So if Magearna was any weaker than P.Z. at all, 50% would have been enough to deal with her period. Second, this "one cannon" argument is not much of an argument. Just because P.Z. only used one of its cannons doesnt mean it was purposely holding back strength. If P.Z. had enough power to deal with Magearna's Soul Heart on his own, he would have dealt with it alone. He wouldnt have needed to just weaken it and let fodder non-legendaries take care of the rest. He would have stopped the attack solo, but he couldnt. That shows that Magearna has slight superiority over P.Z.
3.) Regarding Xerneas's feat, I still want more clarification on what to do for it calcing wise. Because I still stand by my point that pouring in energy in a non-combative state to make a planet continue rotating around the sun for trillions of years on a constant basis is either hilariously casual or very much above 703 Z.
Bonus Point: This has nothing to do with the thread but I want to reply to the 4-B Ultra Necro and P.Z. stuff. Even if Zygarde's weaker forms are not exactly linear, I still see 0 reason why 50% Zygarde and 10% Zygarde wouldnt simply just downscale from 4-B P.Z. to an unquantifiable extent. Linear or not, to suggest 50% Zygarde (half of Zygardes power) is only 5-B whie its true power would be multiple tiers higher in another form is ridiculous. If Zygarde fights Ultra Necro in the manga, and we allow him to scale, then I agree it would scale to other legendaries.
1.) According to Bulbpedia, Perfect Zygarde exceeds both Yveltal and Xerneas in power. So would the Pokedex just take priority over this one point? I felt this should have been brought up.
2.) Im still disagreeing with Magearna being weaker than Perfect Zygarde. For one, Zygarde only becomes Perfect Zygarde when its absolutely neccessary, not on a whim. So if Magearna was any weaker than P.Z. at all, 50% would have been enough to deal with her period. Second, this "one cannon" argument is not much of an argument. Just because P.Z. only used one of its cannons doesnt mean it was purposely holding back strength. If P.Z. had enough power to deal with Magearna's Soul Heart on his own, he would have dealt with it alone. He wouldnt have needed to just weaken it and let fodder non-legendaries take care of the rest. He would have stopped the attack solo, but he couldnt. That shows that Magearna has slight superiority over P.Z.
3.) Regarding Xerneas's feat, I still want more clarification on what to do for it calcing wise. Because I still stand by my point that pouring in energy in a non-combative state to make a planet continue rotating around the sun for trillions of years on a constant basis is either hilariously casual or very much above 703 Z.
Bonus Point: This has nothing to do with the thread but I want to reply to the 4-B Ultra Necro and P.Z. stuff. Even if Zygarde's weaker forms are not exactly linear, I still see 0 reason why 50% Zygarde and 10% Zygarde wouldnt simply just downscale from 4-B P.Z. to an unquantifiable extent. Linear or not, to suggest 50% Zygarde (half of Zygardes power) is only 5-B whie its true power would be multiple tiers higher in another form is ridiculous. If Zygarde fights Ultra Necro in the manga, and we allow him to scale, then I agree it would scale to other legendaries.
- 10,987
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- Thread starter
- #172
Well if you want to than I guess go ahead.
Anyways replying to Kukui's bonus point if Zygarde's other form does downscale from Perfect Zygarde than nobody would scale to 4-B other than Ultra Necrozma since it would be an outlier for them as 5-B is much more consistent.
Anyways replying to Kukui's bonus point if Zygarde's other form does downscale from Perfect Zygarde than nobody would scale to 4-B other than Ultra Necrozma since it would be an outlier for them as 5-B is much more consistent.
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Not really. Saw this point mentioned before, but literally almost all of the 5-B legendaries are only 5-B because of sheer scaling, not their own feats.Peter1129 said:
The only 5-B legendaries who have a 5-B feat to scale from is Mega Rayquaza, Shadow Mewtwo and Xerneas. All of which are done casually.
- 10,987
- 3,163
- Thread starter
- #177
Oh I found the Neptune calc. It's the first part of this calc.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...r_System_to_Multi-Galaxy_level_with_variables
Mass Neptune: 1.0243 * 10^26 kg Diameter Neptune: 49528 km Radius Neptune: 24764000 m
GBE Neptune: (3*(6.674*10^-11)*(1.0243 * 10^26)^2)/(5*24764000) = 1.6965669512825068648037473752220965918268454207720885155871426264e34 J
4 Yotatons to overpower Neptune's GBE.
Anyways this is derailing so I think we should stop talking about Neptune now.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...r_System_to_Multi-Galaxy_level_with_variables
Mass Neptune: 1.0243 * 10^26 kg Diameter Neptune: 49528 km Radius Neptune: 24764000 m
GBE Neptune: (3*(6.674*10^-11)*(1.0243 * 10^26)^2)/(5*24764000) = 1.6965669512825068648037473752220965918268454207720885155871426264e34 J
4 Yotatons to overpower Neptune's GBE.
Anyways this is derailing so I think we should stop talking about Neptune now.
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@Kukui
1.Zygard 100% >>>> Zygard 50% and if Zy really needed to put effort in to it he would have used one of his signature moves, not a no name laser attack
and unless you belive that a bunch of regualr pokemons are even remotelly comparable to the 5-Bs then that point is moot, as Zygard had already removed most of the power of the laser and maybe didn't feel the need to push more
2. There's not reason for the weaker forms of Zyard to scale to the 4-B
it's like saying that the weaker forms of Cell should scale to 4-B
1.Zygard 100% >>>> Zygard 50% and if Zy really needed to put effort in to it he would have used one of his signature moves, not a no name laser attack
and unless you belive that a bunch of regualr pokemons are even remotelly comparable to the 5-Bs then that point is moot, as Zygard had already removed most of the power of the laser and maybe didn't feel the need to push more
2. There's not reason for the weaker forms of Zyard to scale to the 4-B
it's like saying that the weaker forms of Cell should scale to 4-B
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1. Why would he need to use a signature move to use full power? Characters use full or extradinary effort all of the time and they dont always use their signature moves to do so.
My point isnt that those fodder mon are remotely 5-B. My point is that Zygarde wouldnt have had to let them contribute to the attack at all if he was strong enough to do it alone. Heck, saying he was strong enough to weaken the attack and let regular pokemon finish it in itself is saying Zygarde is weaker than Magearna as well because he could not stop it on his own. Why would a legendary let non-legendaries contribute to anything if their own power was enough?
2.) False Equivalancy. In Cells case, he had to grow in power post-Zenkai for his final form to become 4-B at all. In Zygarde's case, Perfect Zygardes power is Zygarde's original power from the beginning and these lower forms are actual parts of Perfect Zygarde's power. 10% Zygarde is 10% of P.Z.'s power. 50% Zygarde is 50% of Perfect Zygarde's power. Besides the obvious gap in tiers, if Perfect Zygarde's power is 4-B, there's 0 reason why his lower forms cannot downscale. 50% Zygarde would just be Perfect Zygarde's power cut in half, which would still be 4-B. 10%? Far lower, but still 4-B.
Not to mention Zygarde has already shown to compare to the UBs even without P.Z.'s power as supporting feats.
My point isnt that those fodder mon are remotely 5-B. My point is that Zygarde wouldnt have had to let them contribute to the attack at all if he was strong enough to do it alone. Heck, saying he was strong enough to weaken the attack and let regular pokemon finish it in itself is saying Zygarde is weaker than Magearna as well because he could not stop it on his own. Why would a legendary let non-legendaries contribute to anything if their own power was enough?
2.) False Equivalancy. In Cells case, he had to grow in power post-Zenkai for his final form to become 4-B at all. In Zygarde's case, Perfect Zygardes power is Zygarde's original power from the beginning and these lower forms are actual parts of Perfect Zygarde's power. 10% Zygarde is 10% of P.Z.'s power. 50% Zygarde is 50% of Perfect Zygarde's power. Besides the obvious gap in tiers, if Perfect Zygarde's power is 4-B, there's 0 reason why his lower forms cannot downscale. 50% Zygarde would just be Perfect Zygarde's power cut in half, which would still be 4-B. 10%? Far lower, but still 4-B.
Not to mention Zygarde has already shown to compare to the UBs even without P.Z.'s power as supporting feats.
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1. Because they are his strongest attacks
2.For the same reason he only bothered to block the last beam attack, he only did what was needed
3. Because pokemon authors don't write with the idea that the leggendaries are quadrillion of times stronger than regular mons
4. the cell count isn't even linear in itself, as Zygarde doesn't need to call 50% of all his cells across the world to turn in to 50% form, so the power one would not be either
2.For the same reason he only bothered to block the last beam attack, he only did what was needed
3. Because pokemon authors don't write with the idea that the leggendaries are quadrillion of times stronger than regular mons
4. the cell count isn't even linear in itself, as Zygarde doesn't need to call 50% of all his cells across the world to turn in to 50% form, so the power one would not be either
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1.) Okay? Strongest attacks =/= need to use them for full power or anything near it.
2.) And again, that in itself shows Zygarde is weaker than Magearna because he has no reason to let fodder mon contribute to the feat if he was strong enough on his own. If he could have stopped it himself, he would have. Occams Razor simply says Zygarde was not strong enough on his own to do the feat as thats the smaller assumption.
3.) Yes and pokemon authors also dont write with the idea that legendary mon would for some reason need non-legendaries to do something they themselves can already do. Which brings back my previous question. When has a legendary ever needed a non-legendary to contribute to do something they didnt need them to contribute to?
4.) Actually yes it is. The XYZ anime has blatantly proven this when it portrayed 2 50% Zygardes simutaneously. One of which was Bonnie's "squishy" and the other was one Team Flare had in their possession. 2 50% Zygardes would mean both have an equal amount of cells.
That said, this last point is a derail so if you want to talk more on the 4-B stuff, you can come to my message wall.
2.) And again, that in itself shows Zygarde is weaker than Magearna because he has no reason to let fodder mon contribute to the feat if he was strong enough on his own. If he could have stopped it himself, he would have. Occams Razor simply says Zygarde was not strong enough on his own to do the feat as thats the smaller assumption.
3.) Yes and pokemon authors also dont write with the idea that legendary mon would for some reason need non-legendaries to do something they themselves can already do. Which brings back my previous question. When has a legendary ever needed a non-legendary to contribute to do something they didnt need them to contribute to?
4.) Actually yes it is. The XYZ anime has blatantly proven this when it portrayed 2 50% Zygardes simutaneously. One of which was Bonnie's "squishy" and the other was one Team Flare had in their possession. 2 50% Zygardes would mean both have an equal amount of cells.
That said, this last point is a derail so if you want to talk more on the 4-B stuff, you can come to my message wall.
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I re-watched the scene of the movie
and
Pokémon the movie 19 Volcanion and the mechanical marvel Zygarde (complete form) appears!!-0
1. The attack seems quite casual on Zygarde's part IMO
2. He was actually the one that nulled the attack, the regular mons could only hold it back
3. He didn't seem particularly worried about the attack
also in the games there's like 5 cores
and
Pokémon the movie 19 Volcanion and the mechanical marvel Zygarde (complete form) appears!!-0
1. The attack seems quite casual on Zygarde's part IMO
2. He was actually the one that nulled the attack, the regular mons could only hold it back
3. He didn't seem particularly worried about the attack
also in the games there's like 5 cores
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Hmm...re-watching the scene as well, it seems Magearna being weaker is fine.Overlord775 said:
However, for the cores, 5 cores would still be linear then because then each core when becoming 10% Zygarde or 50% Zygarde would have 20% of Perfect Z's power each.
- 10,987
- 3,163
- Thread starter
- #184
Okay so ignoring the stuff about Zygarde (which should be a thread by itself) I think everything else has been discussed right?
Or do we still have to discuss about which legendaries get a at least and whether or not the Aura Trio should get a at least due to the 703 Zettaton feat being casual. Actually looking at the profiles right now it seems like Xerneas and Yveltal already have the At least but 50% Zygarde doesn't have it for some reason even though it's only slightly weaker.
Or do we still have to discuss about which legendaries get a at least and whether or not the Aura Trio should get a at least due to the 703 Zettaton feat being casual. Actually looking at the profiles right now it seems like Xerneas and Yveltal already have the At least but 50% Zygarde doesn't have it for some reason even though it's only slightly weaker.
- 10,987
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- Thread starter
- #186
You're the one that doesn't get it. Like I said before be it tier 9,7,5 or anything higher up to tier 3 the scale of power doesn't matter. Numbers are something his site has always been using. The difference between 420 Zettatons and 703 Zettatons is just 1.67x it's possible for the 420 Zettatons character to hold back attacks from someone that's 703 Zettatons but still get easily defeated. Seriously what's so hard to understand about this?
Also you do realize that you quoted the wrong reply right? The reply you quoted wasn't even directed at you.
Also you do realize that you quoted the wrong reply right? The reply you quoted wasn't even directed at you.
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I dont think anything else needs to be discussed. Though how come its only 703 Z again? Wasnt it 717 on here or was there a minor mistake?Peter1129 said:
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Why is 2.9 x 10^33 J being divided though? The original calc isnt doing that.
- 10,987
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- Thread starter
- #190
2.9 x 10^33 joules is the results of the calc. I divided that by 2.48 x 10^32 joules which is baseline 5-B in joules. Which shows that the calc is 11.8225342179x baseline 5-B. Than I multiply this number by 59.44 Zettatons which is baseline 5-B and there you go conversion from joules to Zettatons finished. The results turned out to be 703 Zettatons rather than 717 Zettatons.
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Yes I see that, but im asking why did you divide the calcs result by baseline 5-B? I ask because I didnt see the calcer from Naruto forums do it on their calc, unless your supposed to?
- 10,987
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- Thread starter
- #192
How else do you convert joules to Zettatons than? Since I know the calc was somewhere in 5-B I just divided the results by baseline to see how far into 5-B it is in joules. After that I just multiplied the difference from baseline 5-B in Zettatons.
So 59.44 Zettatons (Baseline 5-B) x 11.8225342179 (How many times baseline the calc is) = 702.731433914 Zettatons or roughly 703 Zettatons.
So 59.44 Zettatons (Baseline 5-B) x 11.8225342179 (How many times baseline the calc is) = 702.731433914 Zettatons or roughly 703 Zettatons.
- 10,987
- 3,163
- Thread starter
- #193
I'm a dumbass just realized there is a site for converting stuff like this. Though it doesn't seem to convert joules to Foe.
https://www.convertunits.com/from/joule/to/zettaton+[explosive]
I plugged in the results of the calc and yeah it's still roughly 703 Zettatons.
https://www.convertunits.com/from/joule/to/zettaton+[explosive]
I plugged in the results of the calc and yeah it's still roughly 703 Zettatons.
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Hmm. I guess the Naruto forum calcer just skipped a step.
Nevermind then.
Nevermind then.
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As for my previous argument on Xerneas's feat, I think i'll take that to a seperate thread to see if anyones interested in dicussing it more so it doesnt derail the purpose of this thread.
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This I dont remember agreeing with. Mega Mewtwo should still scale to Zygarde who still scales to Xerneas's feat.Peter1129 said:
- 10,987
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- Thread starter
- #199
Yep thought so so I guess there's still something left to discuss.
So the reason for Mega Mewtwo scaling to 703 Zettatons is because he briefly battled a somewhat amped 50% Zygarde. Who should be somewhat higher than 703 Zettaton since he absorbed some power from the battle between Xerneas and Yveltal when he himself was already slightly weaker than they are. Also keep in mind they only just started fighting around the same time Mewtwo started fighting so he probably didn't absorb that much power.
While the reason for Mega Mewtwo scaling to 420 Zettatons is because he seemed to be comparable to Mega Rayquaza in SMD. At least that's the impression I got from the Narutoforum calc when it said Mega Mewtwo, Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys working together can stop Dark Matter's influence.
I personally think Mega Mewtwo Should scale to 420 Zettatons because he's more consistently portrayed as being around the same level as Deoxys and Mega Rayquaza. And because 50% Zygarde with an unknown amp still one shot him it's a direct hit. Plus the difference between 420 Zettatons and 703 Zettatons is really not that big. Mega Mewtwo scales above this which is consistent with him briefly fighting 50% Zygarde who scales to 703 Zettatons.
So the reason for Mega Mewtwo scaling to 703 Zettatons is because he briefly battled a somewhat amped 50% Zygarde. Who should be somewhat higher than 703 Zettaton since he absorbed some power from the battle between Xerneas and Yveltal when he himself was already slightly weaker than they are. Also keep in mind they only just started fighting around the same time Mewtwo started fighting so he probably didn't absorb that much power.
While the reason for Mega Mewtwo scaling to 420 Zettatons is because he seemed to be comparable to Mega Rayquaza in SMD. At least that's the impression I got from the Narutoforum calc when it said Mega Mewtwo, Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys working together can stop Dark Matter's influence.
I personally think Mega Mewtwo Should scale to 420 Zettatons because he's more consistently portrayed as being around the same level as Deoxys and Mega Rayquaza. And because 50% Zygarde with an unknown amp still one shot him it's a direct hit. Plus the difference between 420 Zettatons and 703 Zettatons is really not that big. Mega Mewtwo scales above this which is consistent with him briefly fighting 50% Zygarde who scales to 703 Zettatons.
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Problem is ''base'' Mewtwo scales to 420 ZT
