Legendary Pokémon Downgrade

[Peter1129]

Yeah that's pretty much what I think as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

For the Zygarde thing, they did say "or" rather than "and", implying that Zygarde could take them individually but not together. Zygarde isn't a Trio Master.

 

[Peter1129]

Oh so 100% Zygarde is just stronger than Xerneas and Yveltal individually rather than together. Btw Cal what do you think about the scaling between Magearna and Zygarde?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with what you and Overlord said on the matter.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright so do we need to wait for more support or can the changes be implemented now?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Some should lose the +s, but there should be At Leasts as Zygarde did steal power from the Gen 6 Boxarts.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah some legendaries like the Tao Trio and the Swords of Justice should still be at least 5-B though they will lose the + sign. I think the only 5-B+ now is 100% Zygarde right since he's at least twice as strong as his 50% form which is just slightly weaker than Xerneas and Yveltal the former of which is 703 Zettatons.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Complete Kyurem keeps it I think. So does M-Mewtwo and above.

 

[Peter1129]

Pretty sure 5-B+ starts at 1.37972 Yottatons or 1379.72 Zettatons.

Mega Mewtwo is stronger than Mega Rayquaza who is 420 Zettatons but weaker than 50% Zygarde who is 703 Zettatons. So he won't get it.

Complete Kyurem is over three times stronger than Mega Mewtwo who is in between 420 Zettatons and 703 Zettatons so maybe he could be likely 5-B+.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not a + but an At least is what I was talking about. Also keep in mind that an unabsorbed Zygarde scales to 703 by dying in a noncombative state.

 

[Peter1129]

Actually now that I think about it I think only the legendaries that are stronger than the Aura Trio should get at least.

Cause it would seem a bit weird for those that are weaker than the Aura Trio to get at least 5-B when they the Trio themselves are just 5-B.

So the at least should probably only be given to Black/White Kyurem and Resolute Keldeo who are at least 840 Zettatons and maybe Magearna whom Zygarde decided to use 100% rather than 50% against. Complete Kyurem also gets at least 5-B if 5-B+ isn't accepted for him.

 

[Peter1129]

Not a + but an At least is what I was talking about. Also keep in mind that an unabsorbed Zygarde scales to 703 by dying in a noncombative state.

Didn't Overlord say Xerneas was unable to perform the 703 Zettatons feat because it was dying?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

the feat is Xerneas keeping the earth rotating and orbitating around the sun

the planet being hurled into the sun is just the result of Xernas not being able to provide enought energy to keep the system going

this makes sense

 

[Peter1129]

Added a tldr section for the tiers.

 

[HenryWong122]

So did I convert it wrong or did Narutoforums convert it wrong? I mean it's not like it matters since the results are still really similar to each other and nothing about the scaling would change but I'm just curious.
Actually now that I think about it this thread is going off topic. So who thinks Magearna is stronger than 100% Zygarde and who thinks Magearna is weaker than 100% Zygarde? Cause I think that's the only one left.

Mega Mewtwo being stronger than Mega Rayquaza who is 420 Zettatons but weaker than 50% Zygarde who is 703 Zettatons and Zygarde's key getting remove seems to be agreed upon by everyone.

Magearna and 100% Zygarde are equal because they are both Super-Effective against each other.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'm in agreement with the current conclusions, scaling Pokémon can be a nightmare with all the different continuities.

Just curious if Ho-oh and/or Lugia show tier 5 feats in Gen 8 (games/anime/manga etc) would it be considered an outlier?.

 

[Peter1129]

I mean considering how consistently tier 5 most legendaries are it's probably not going to be an outlier.

 

[Overlord775]

Magearna and 100% Zygarde are equal because they are both Super-Effective against each other.

That's not how AP gets decided

 

[Drite77]

I'm in agreement with the current conclusions, scaling Pokémon can be a nightmare with all the different continuities.
Just curious if Ho-oh and/or Lugia show tier 5 feats in Gen 8 (games/anime/manga etc) would it be considered an outlier?.

If this happen, the Legendary Birds and some Mythical mons would get an upgrade to Low 5-B?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Ok gotcha, someday the tower duo will show their true potential among the other mascot legendaries call it a "hunch".

Also the 5-B tier is pretty crowded with legendary pokémon (with the M-Lati twins at the low end and Zygarde 100% at the high end).

 

[Peter1129]

If this happen, the Legendary Birds and some Mythical mons would get an upgrade to Low 5-B?

Technically it depends on how high the 5-B feat they scale to are. If in the future they perform a near baseline feat the legendary birds and the legendary beasts would be Low 5-B+. If the feat is more than 3x baseline the legendary birds and legendary beasts would be 5-B.

 

[HenryWong122]

Magearna and 100% Zygarde are equal because they are both Super-Effective against each other.

That's not how AP gets decided

Hey, Overlord775, NYUOOOOM!

 

[Overlord775]

type advantages mean nothing in a beam struggle and Zygarde showed to have the upper hand over Magearna

 

[Drite77]

@Peter1129 Huh, neat.

 

[HenryWong122]

type advantages mean nothing in a beam struggle and Zygarde showed to have the upper hand over Magearna

That went over your head Iyke NYUOOM!!!

 

[Overlord775]

nyah ?

 

[Drite77]

I think that he is saying that it was a joke, and you didn't get it

 

[Arceus0x]

Will shadow mewtwo keept his tier? cause he is 5-A by his own feat which was calced at 5-A

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Will shadow mewtwo keept his tier? cause he is 5-A by his own feat which was calced at 5-A

If this is true, then he should be unaffected by this, yes.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah Shadow Mewtwo has his own 5-A calc so he's completely unaffected by this downgrade.

 

[Arceus0x]

Another question. If a 4-B upgrade will ever happen then will Shadow Mewtwo be affected?

I mean

M Mewtwo is a bit weaker than 50% Zygarde who is weaker than Xerneas/Yveltal

100% Zygarde is stronger than Xerneas/Yveltal but not stronger than Xerneas and Yveltal together. If Ult Necrozma fights 100% Zygarde then Xerneas and Yveltal should scale. Zygarde is comparable to them but a bit weaker and Mewtwo is comparable to Zygarde. Then we get Shadow Mewtwo who is very strong and surpasses M Mewtwo. M Mewtwo is 5-B while M S Mewtwo is 5-A. Would that affect anything? would M S Mewtwo be about as powerful as Xerneas or Yveltal?

 

[Peter1129]

Shadow Mewtwo scales to his own feats so he won't be affected by anything.

Like I said yesterday if 100% Zygarde fights Ultra Necrozma probably nobody else would scale since the Zygarde percentages aren't linear at all. The dex entry only said he capable of defeating them it doesn't say how easily. For all we know 100% Zygarde could just one shot them because he's massively stronger than they are.

Also Mega Mewtwo was struggling to hold back 50% Zygarde who absorbed some power from Xerneas and Yveltal. So I wouldn't exactly say he's just a bit weaker. If anything he's more like somewhere above Mega Rayquaza but below the likes of the Aura Trio.

 

[Arceus0x]

Shadow Mewtwo scales to his own feats so he won't be affected by anything.
Like I said yesterday if 100% Zygarde fights Ultra Necrozma probably nobody else would scale since the Zygarde percentages aren't linear at all. The dex entry only said he capable of defeating them it doesn't say how easily. For all we know 100% Zygarde could just one shot them because he's massively stronger than they are.

Also Mega Mewtwo was struggling to hold back 50% Zygarde who absorbed some power from Xerneas and Yveltal. So I wouldn't exactly say he's just a bit weaker. If anything he's more like somewhere above Mega Rayquaza but below the likes of the Aura Trio.

i am pretty sure what you said was wrong. M Mewtwo held off an attack from 50% Zygarde who was powered up by Xerneas and Yveltal, thus meaning that Zygarde at 50% without the power up is around the same strength as Mega Mewtwo. 50% Zygarde is a bit weaker than the Aura duo. 100% Zygarde is above Yveltal or Xerneas but not stronger than both of them. Thus it means Zygarde at 100% is over the calcs for Xerneas/Yveltal but he is not above both pokemon fighting together at the same time. Then it scales.

 

[Peter1129]

First off we don't know how much stronger 50% Zygarde is compared to normal since Xerneas and Yveltal only just started fighting. Plus Mega Mewtwo X was struggling to hold back the Crunch and his spoon was also getting bent just from trying to block it. The moment Emma commanded 50% Zygarde to use dragon pulse Mega Mewtwo X got one shot while engaging it in combat. Not to mention even in Super Mystery Dungeon the Gen 6 legendaries are portrayed as being much stronger than Mega Mewtwo. That's basically why I think Mega Mewtwo should scale to Mega Rayquaza who is 420 Zettatons rather than the Aura Trio who are 703 Zettatons since it's consistent with him being strong enough to barely hold off attacks from 50% Zygarde who absorbed an unknown amount of power from both Xerneas and Yveltal but still weak enough to get knocked out by Zygarde with one attack.

Also I'm pretty sure nothing says 100% Zygarde isn't stronger than both Xerneas and Yveltal combined. The dex entry only said 100% Zygarde can overwhelm either Xerneas or Yveltal it didn't say it's impossible for him to overwhelm them both. Not to mention if Xerneas and Yveltal do in some way scale to 100% Zygarde than 4-B will be an outlier for them since too many legendaries would scale and 5-B is much more consistent.

 

[Arceus0x]

1) If M Mewtwo held off the attacks it means he scales. No matter if he struggled or not. If i used telepathy to hold off a nuclear explosion for some seconds and then i would get knocked away with minor injuries then that would mean i scale to the explosion, no matter if i got knocked away or defeated or what.

2) You misread. I explisicitly said that 100% Zygarde IS NOT STRONGER THAN XERNEAS AND YVELTAL TOGETHER. plz pay attention to what i say.

3) If it will be an outlier for Yveltal and Xerneas then that means it should also be an outlier for Zygarde as it would make no sense. Each of them clearly scale to each other. Mewtwo scales to boosted Zygarde because he was able to hold off and survive an attak from him and Zygarde scales to Xerneas and Yveltal. If they get scaled then it does not matter if 5-B may seem more logical. If everything points to powerscaling then they will powersclae, even if it means scaling more than 20 pokemon.

 

[Overlord775]

1) If M Mewtwo held off the attacks it means he scales. No matter if he struggled or not. If i used telepathy to hold off a nuclear explosion for some seconds and then i would get knocked away with minor injuries then that would mean i scale to the explosion, no matter if i got knocked away or defeated or what.

Mewtwo would be less than 1.67 times weaker than Zygarde

so him not scaling to Zygarde isn't necessary for the pychic cat to be able to somewhat block an attack

 

[GyroNutz]

If Zygarde was 4-B instead of 5-B, then Mega Mewtwo would likely scale to Zygarde. I believe that's Arceus0x's point.

 

[Peter1129]

1) Mega Mewtwo doesn't need to scale to the Aura Trio when he's explicitly shown to be weaker in the manga and in Super Mystery Dungeon. Mega Mewtwo scaling to Mega Rayquaza is much more consistent with him being just strong enough to hold back attacks from Zygarde but not strong enough to pose a threat to him.

2) And I said nothing says he isn't stronger than both of them together. From the dex entry we know that 100% is at least stronger than one of them. The key word being at least. For all we know 100% Zygarde might turn out to be stronger than both of them combined in some future game or in the manga since the percentages aren't linear.

3) That's what I said though. I said if Xerneas and Yveltal do in some way scale to 100% Zygarde than 4-B will be an outlier for them as in for the entire Aura Trio since 5-B is much more consistent. Edit: Actually now that I reread my post yeah it did sound like I was saying it would be an outlier only for Xerneas and Yveltal and not Zygarde.

 

[Arceus0x]

1) Mega Mewtwo doesn't need to scale to the Aura Trio when he's explicitly shown to be weaker in the manga and in Super Mystery Dungeon. Mega Mewtwo scaling to Mega Rayquaza is much more consistent with him being just strong enough to hold back attacks from Zygarde but not strong enough to pose a threat to him.
2) And I said nothing says he isn't stronger than both of them together. From the dex entry we know that 100% is at least stronger than one of them. The key word being at least. For all we know 100% Zygarde might turn out to be stronger than both of them combined in some future game or in the manga since the percentages aren't linear.

3) That's what I said though. I said if Xerneas and Yveltal do in some way scale to 100% Zygarde than 4-B will be an outlier for them as in for the entire Aura Trio since 5-B is much more consistent. Edit: Actually now that I reread my post yeah it did sound like I was saying it would be an outlier only for Xerneas and Yveltal and not Zygarde.

let's just stop for now. Let us wait for the pokexperts to roll in. They probably can handle what we are talking about.

BTW Smistery dungeon cannot be considered the cannon for any pokemon. We have separate pages for mistery dungeon characters.

 

[Peter1129]

You do know the current 703 Zettaton 5-B feat that the Aura Trio scales to is from Super Mystery Dungeon right? The profiles are composite profiles. The only super mystery dungeon profiles are the relevant main characters and side characters from those games.