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You too? Damn, seems to be spreading like the plague. -_-
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Legend of Zelda downgrades. Part 2.
- Thread starter Antvasima
- Start date
- Status
- 126
- 16
@Perp
1) The fact that Link used the mask at all is more than enough proof we need. Why else would Link bring it upon himself to use it? Did he just put on the FDM for the lulz? What other reason is there? It's common sense really. He needed to use its power, the reason being that he couldn't beat Majora on his ow
This is where your argument falls apart completely. What you are suggesting is that Link had the power to defeat Majora on his own, in which case he would never have needed to put on the FDM in the first place, which goes directly against the description in the Hyrule Historia
2) Except there's a very big issue with your theory. In your mission to prove why this statement is valid, you neglected to see if it made any sense
Consider that even after absorbing most of the Light Force from Zelda, Link still whooped him. This was a Link who a) did not possess the Master Sword (the most powerful weapon in the franchise); and b) did not possess any Triforce piece (which the pro-Zelda side has been arguing are the most powerful artifacts in the series other than the completed Triforce). So I ask you this: how on Earth does it make sense for a Link possessing the ToC, which likely grants him at least some sort of boost, to get wrecked by Majora in an indisputable cinematic, while a Link with no such boost can defeat a character supposedly stronger than Majora?
Are you now saying this Link, the Four Sword, or the Picori Sword are somehow stronger than the ToC, after this thread has been saying that the Triforce pieces are greater than everything else? You can only justify these assumptions with more assumptions based on; you guessed it, another assumption. The logical power scaling and actual feats presented by the series up to this point all point to Majora being superior to Vaati, not the other way around. You only have a featless statement in a secondary resource to rely on, along with any other unproven theories that might spawn from it
3) You haven't proven that Zelda is superior to Vaati at all. Actually, the very fact that Vaati took Zelda (who had the full Light Force at that time) out so easily proves that possessing this force didn't really amount to anything for her. She had never really shown any sort of capability with wielding this power, so we can't attribute Vaati wanting to take her out to anything but a precaution for if she eventually could learn to wield it. Not that it matters since she was drained of most of the Light Force anyway. Even when she restored all the evil Vaati done, it was through the Mage's Cap and her pure heart, not the Light Force itself
"Hmm-hmm! The hat is breaking apart. It's overflowing with the power of life! The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer into reality. Vaati's heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in what he became. But it seems that Zelda's pure heart, coupled with the hat's power... has created a miracle!" — Ezlo (The Minish Cap)
It's clear that Zelda has enough potent light magic to stun evil beings, that much is certain. But taking a back hand from Dorf doesn't really mean her durability scales to Dorf's DC. Same goes with tanking the Dead Man's Volley blasts, which while a decent feat, doesn't really mean Dorf was able to use his full power using her as a vessel. As for her physical strength, we have no idea of the extent to which Zelda contributed. Common sense dictates Link was pulling most of their weight in breaking that jewel on Malladus. Since he was stalemating Malladus before Zelda joined in, it's likely her little bit of strength was enough to shatter the jewel. That doesn't make her nearly as strong as Link or Dorf
So I reiterate, nothing here places Zelda above Vaati besides what she might have done had she learned to use the Light Force, which is practically gone from her anyway
4) I agree with Dorf being stronger than Zelda. That much should be clear
However, you seem to be forgetting the details of his fight with Link in OoT. Even without the Master Sword, Link made Ganon write in agony and brought him to his knees just by using the Megaton Hammer or the Biggoron Sword in addition to being able to tank his attacks. In fact, the Master Sword (being kryptonite to evil) really was used for the final blow. The Sages were only used to seal Ganon away when he had no real ability to keep on fighting
What does this mean? It means Link's physical strength and durability were comparable to Ganon's, likely due to a boost provided by the ToC. And despite keeping this boost that made him somewhat equivalent than Ganon, he still would have been annihilated by Majora
On Demise
You haven't been following this thread closely enough then. Demise was going to "destroy the world" in the form of sending his army to slaughter its citizens, then subjugating the world under his iron will
"One dark, fateful day, the earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure. They mounted a brutal assault upon the surface people, driving the land into deep despair... They burnt forests to ash, choked the land's sweet springs, and murdered without hesitation. They did all this in their lust to take the ultimate power protected by Her Grace, the goddess." — Introduction (Skyward Sword)
"And when you do fall, know that your world and everything in it is mine to dominate... Mine to subjugate... Mine to rule!" — Demise (Skyward Sword)
How would it make any bit of sense for Demise to literally destroy a planet he resides on?
Link wished for Demise/The Imprisoned to die. The Triforce took that as dropping the island on him, which killed him. There's no way to argue around that
1) The fact that Link used the mask at all is more than enough proof we need. Why else would Link bring it upon himself to use it? Did he just put on the FDM for the lulz? What other reason is there? It's common sense really. He needed to use its power, the reason being that he couldn't beat Majora on his ow
This is where your argument falls apart completely. What you are suggesting is that Link had the power to defeat Majora on his own, in which case he would never have needed to put on the FDM in the first place, which goes directly against the description in the Hyrule Historia
2) Except there's a very big issue with your theory. In your mission to prove why this statement is valid, you neglected to see if it made any sense
Consider that even after absorbing most of the Light Force from Zelda, Link still whooped him. This was a Link who a) did not possess the Master Sword (the most powerful weapon in the franchise); and b) did not possess any Triforce piece (which the pro-Zelda side has been arguing are the most powerful artifacts in the series other than the completed Triforce). So I ask you this: how on Earth does it make sense for a Link possessing the ToC, which likely grants him at least some sort of boost, to get wrecked by Majora in an indisputable cinematic, while a Link with no such boost can defeat a character supposedly stronger than Majora?
Are you now saying this Link, the Four Sword, or the Picori Sword are somehow stronger than the ToC, after this thread has been saying that the Triforce pieces are greater than everything else? You can only justify these assumptions with more assumptions based on; you guessed it, another assumption. The logical power scaling and actual feats presented by the series up to this point all point to Majora being superior to Vaati, not the other way around. You only have a featless statement in a secondary resource to rely on, along with any other unproven theories that might spawn from it
3) You haven't proven that Zelda is superior to Vaati at all. Actually, the very fact that Vaati took Zelda (who had the full Light Force at that time) out so easily proves that possessing this force didn't really amount to anything for her. She had never really shown any sort of capability with wielding this power, so we can't attribute Vaati wanting to take her out to anything but a precaution for if she eventually could learn to wield it. Not that it matters since she was drained of most of the Light Force anyway. Even when she restored all the evil Vaati done, it was through the Mage's Cap and her pure heart, not the Light Force itself
"Hmm-hmm! The hat is breaking apart. It's overflowing with the power of life! The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer into reality. Vaati's heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in what he became. But it seems that Zelda's pure heart, coupled with the hat's power... has created a miracle!" — Ezlo (The Minish Cap)
It's clear that Zelda has enough potent light magic to stun evil beings, that much is certain. But taking a back hand from Dorf doesn't really mean her durability scales to Dorf's DC. Same goes with tanking the Dead Man's Volley blasts, which while a decent feat, doesn't really mean Dorf was able to use his full power using her as a vessel. As for her physical strength, we have no idea of the extent to which Zelda contributed. Common sense dictates Link was pulling most of their weight in breaking that jewel on Malladus. Since he was stalemating Malladus before Zelda joined in, it's likely her little bit of strength was enough to shatter the jewel. That doesn't make her nearly as strong as Link or Dorf
So I reiterate, nothing here places Zelda above Vaati besides what she might have done had she learned to use the Light Force, which is practically gone from her anyway
4) I agree with Dorf being stronger than Zelda. That much should be clear
However, you seem to be forgetting the details of his fight with Link in OoT. Even without the Master Sword, Link made Ganon write in agony and brought him to his knees just by using the Megaton Hammer or the Biggoron Sword in addition to being able to tank his attacks. In fact, the Master Sword (being kryptonite to evil) really was used for the final blow. The Sages were only used to seal Ganon away when he had no real ability to keep on fighting
What does this mean? It means Link's physical strength and durability were comparable to Ganon's, likely due to a boost provided by the ToC. And despite keeping this boost that made him somewhat equivalent than Ganon, he still would have been annihilated by Majora
On Demise
You haven't been following this thread closely enough then. Demise was going to "destroy the world" in the form of sending his army to slaughter its citizens, then subjugating the world under his iron will
"One dark, fateful day, the earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure. They mounted a brutal assault upon the surface people, driving the land into deep despair... They burnt forests to ash, choked the land's sweet springs, and murdered without hesitation. They did all this in their lust to take the ultimate power protected by Her Grace, the goddess." — Introduction (Skyward Sword)
"And when you do fall, know that your world and everything in it is mine to dominate... Mine to subjugate... Mine to rule!" — Demise (Skyward Sword)
How would it make any bit of sense for Demise to literally destroy a planet he resides on?
Link wished for Demise/The Imprisoned to die. The Triforce took that as dropping the island on him, which killed him. There's no way to argue around that
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The fact that Link used the mask at all is more than enough proof we need. Why else would Link bring it upon himself to use it? Did he just put on the FDM for the lulz? What other reason is there? It's common sense really. He needed to use its power, the reason being that he couldn't beat Majora on his ow
Would you rather fight Superman in a suit slightly stronger or immensely stronger than him? Plus, again, this is Child Link. He isn't as powerful as his adult counterpart, which is the entire reason he had to become an adult in OoT anyway.
Are you now saying this Link, the Four Sword, or the Picori Sword are somehow stronger than the ToC, after this thread has been saying that the Triforce pieces are greater than everything else? You can only justify these assumptions with more assumptions based on; you guessed it, another assumption. The logical power scaling and actual feats presented by the series up to this point all point to Majora being superior to Vaati, not the other way around. You only have a featless statement in a secondary resource to rely on, along with any other unproven theories that might spawn from it
He has been saying that the ToP and ToW are more powerful than other things by feats. Nothing about the ToC, IIRC. Also, my comment showed that the Light Force is at least as strong as the Fierce Deity Mask, as they both operate on the same mechanics and have similar-ish populations to draw power from. However, author intent backs the Light Force as being above the Fierce Deity.
What does this mean? It means Link's physical strength and durability were comparable to Ganon's, likely due to a boost provided by the ToC. And despite keeping this boost that made him somewhat equivalent than Ganon, he still would have been annihilated by Majora
This is ignoring the magical abilities, armor, health boosts, and, you know, weapons, that Link gains over the course of the game, including the Light Arrows granted to him by Zelda. Plus the power the Sages apparently gave him. There's also the fact that literally toward the beginning of the game Ganondorf casually beats Link with a single attack.
How would it make any bit of sense for Demise to literally destroy a planet he resides on?
Conquering the world != destroying it. Those are two completely different things. Plus, why would it make sense for Majora to destroy the planet he resides on? Why would it make sense for any of the many many fictional supervillains that exist to destroy the world? Since the manga describes it as a surface wipe, I'm inclined to think that he isn't planet busting, so yeah I'd change that to just Multi-Continental, which if anything is more consistent with the scaling we're using.
Would you rather fight Superman in a suit slightly stronger or immensely stronger than him? Plus, again, this is Child Link. He isn't as powerful as his adult counterpart, which is the entire reason he had to become an adult in OoT anyway.
Are you now saying this Link, the Four Sword, or the Picori Sword are somehow stronger than the ToC, after this thread has been saying that the Triforce pieces are greater than everything else? You can only justify these assumptions with more assumptions based on; you guessed it, another assumption. The logical power scaling and actual feats presented by the series up to this point all point to Majora being superior to Vaati, not the other way around. You only have a featless statement in a secondary resource to rely on, along with any other unproven theories that might spawn from it
He has been saying that the ToP and ToW are more powerful than other things by feats. Nothing about the ToC, IIRC. Also, my comment showed that the Light Force is at least as strong as the Fierce Deity Mask, as they both operate on the same mechanics and have similar-ish populations to draw power from. However, author intent backs the Light Force as being above the Fierce Deity.
What does this mean? It means Link's physical strength and durability were comparable to Ganon's, likely due to a boost provided by the ToC. And despite keeping this boost that made him somewhat equivalent than Ganon, he still would have been annihilated by Majora
This is ignoring the magical abilities, armor, health boosts, and, you know, weapons, that Link gains over the course of the game, including the Light Arrows granted to him by Zelda. Plus the power the Sages apparently gave him. There's also the fact that literally toward the beginning of the game Ganondorf casually beats Link with a single attack.
How would it make any bit of sense for Demise to literally destroy a planet he resides on?
Conquering the world != destroying it. Those are two completely different things. Plus, why would it make sense for Majora to destroy the planet he resides on? Why would it make sense for any of the many many fictional supervillains that exist to destroy the world? Since the manga describes it as a surface wipe, I'm inclined to think that he isn't planet busting, so yeah I'd change that to just Multi-Continental, which if anything is more consistent with the scaling we're using.
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"Would you rather fight Superman in a suit slightly stronger or immensely stronger than him? Plus, again, this is Child Link. He isn't as powerful as his adult counterpart, which is the entire reason he had to become an adult in OoT anyway."
There's a problem with that comparison: it's baseless. All we know is that Link decided to use the FDM after getting his butt handed to him in their first encounter and again should Link fail to stop Majora. That shows Link couldn't come close to his power before using the FDM, which likely affected his decision to use it
"He has been saying that the ToP and ToW are more powerful than other things by feats. Nothing about the ToC, IIRC. Also, my comment showed that the Light Force is at least as strong as the Fierce Deity Mask, as they both operate on the same mechanics and have similar-ish populations to draw power from. However, author intent backs the Light Force as being above the Fierce Deity."'
Why exactly would they be unequal in power? They might grant different, vague boosts, but the overall boosts they give should be similar to each other
Operating with similar mechanics doesn't make them equal BTW. Luke Cage's super strength works just like the Thing's super strength, except the Thing has far better feats, something the Light Force sorely lacks. And the worse thing about it? It actually isn't how the Light Force works at all. It's actually a condensed/more powerful form of Force, which basically is life energy or ki. It wasn't formed through memories, but given to Hyrule by the Minish
"This is ignoring the magical abilities, armor, health boosts, and, you know, weapons, that Link gains over the course of the game, including the Light Arrows granted to him by Zelda. Plus the power the Sages apparently gave him. There's also the fact that literally toward the beginning of the game Ganondorf casually beats Link with a single attack."
He does lack certain abilities and items, but the strength and durability remain the same, as shown when he travels back to his original timeline and still possesses the same number of Hearts. The Medallions themselves, however, only represented the Sages' power. "Adding to Link's strength" refers to how they will help Link seal away Dorf, not boost his stats. The weapons themselves (namely the Megaton Hammer and the Biggoron Sword) are only as good as Link's strength
You have really been pushing this idea that because Link is a child, all his strength is rendered moot. He might not be as strong as his teenage form, but recall this is still a kid that can kill giant monsters even with a Kokiri sword and a slingshot. He also should really not be that far from other Links his age at all, who I remind you are also able to take monsters and versions of Ganon on too. Being younger is not a huge setback at all
"Conquering the world != destroying it. Those are two completely different things. Plus, why would it make sense for Majora to destroy the planet he resides on? Why would it make sense for any of the many many fictional supervillains that exist to destroy the world? Since the manga describes it as a surface wipe, I'm inclined to think that he isn't planet busting, so yeah I'd change that to just Multi-Continental, which if anything is more consistent with the scaling we're using."
Agreed, conquering the world is completely different than destroying it. That's why this nonsense that Demise was supposedly going to literally destroy the world simply isn't true. Demise's own quotes prove that
Majora was going to destroy Termina BTW, not the whole world. Comparing it to other supervillains' plans is completely irrelevant to the discussio
There's a problem with that comparison: it's baseless. All we know is that Link decided to use the FDM after getting his butt handed to him in their first encounter and again should Link fail to stop Majora. That shows Link couldn't come close to his power before using the FDM, which likely affected his decision to use it
"He has been saying that the ToP and ToW are more powerful than other things by feats. Nothing about the ToC, IIRC. Also, my comment showed that the Light Force is at least as strong as the Fierce Deity Mask, as they both operate on the same mechanics and have similar-ish populations to draw power from. However, author intent backs the Light Force as being above the Fierce Deity."'
Why exactly would they be unequal in power? They might grant different, vague boosts, but the overall boosts they give should be similar to each other
Operating with similar mechanics doesn't make them equal BTW. Luke Cage's super strength works just like the Thing's super strength, except the Thing has far better feats, something the Light Force sorely lacks. And the worse thing about it? It actually isn't how the Light Force works at all. It's actually a condensed/more powerful form of Force, which basically is life energy or ki. It wasn't formed through memories, but given to Hyrule by the Minish
"This is ignoring the magical abilities, armor, health boosts, and, you know, weapons, that Link gains over the course of the game, including the Light Arrows granted to him by Zelda. Plus the power the Sages apparently gave him. There's also the fact that literally toward the beginning of the game Ganondorf casually beats Link with a single attack."
He does lack certain abilities and items, but the strength and durability remain the same, as shown when he travels back to his original timeline and still possesses the same number of Hearts. The Medallions themselves, however, only represented the Sages' power. "Adding to Link's strength" refers to how they will help Link seal away Dorf, not boost his stats. The weapons themselves (namely the Megaton Hammer and the Biggoron Sword) are only as good as Link's strength
You have really been pushing this idea that because Link is a child, all his strength is rendered moot. He might not be as strong as his teenage form, but recall this is still a kid that can kill giant monsters even with a Kokiri sword and a slingshot. He also should really not be that far from other Links his age at all, who I remind you are also able to take monsters and versions of Ganon on too. Being younger is not a huge setback at all
"Conquering the world != destroying it. Those are two completely different things. Plus, why would it make sense for Majora to destroy the planet he resides on? Why would it make sense for any of the many many fictional supervillains that exist to destroy the world? Since the manga describes it as a surface wipe, I'm inclined to think that he isn't planet busting, so yeah I'd change that to just Multi-Continental, which if anything is more consistent with the scaling we're using."
Agreed, conquering the world is completely different than destroying it. That's why this nonsense that Demise was supposedly going to literally destroy the world simply isn't true. Demise's own quotes prove that
Majora was going to destroy Termina BTW, not the whole world. Comparing it to other supervillains' plans is completely irrelevant to the discussio
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There's a problem with that comparison: it's baseless. All we know is that Link decided to use the FDM after getting his butt handed to him in their first encounter and again should Link fail to stop Majora. That shows Link couldn't come close to his power before using the FDM, which likely affected his decision to use it
Since using gameplay (Biggoron's sword hurting Ganon) seems to be apart of your argument, then I can also back up my point that he just did it to be extra sure by saying you can beat Majora without the Deity Mask.
Why exactly would they be unequal in power? They might grant different, vague boosts, but the overall boosts they give should be similar to each other
Because lore doesn't care about vs. contexts. If I make a game where an artifact lets one person control neutronium and another control gold they're both "equal", but one is better in a vs. context. Otherwise what's the purpose of the ToP if it doesn't actually make Ganon any more powerful than the ToC or ToW?
Operating with similar mechanics doesn't make them equal BTW. Luke Cage's super strength works just like the Thing's super strength, except the Thing has far better feats, something the Light Force sorely lacks. And the worse thing about it? It actually isn't how the Light Force works at all. It's actually a condensed/more powerful form of Force, which basically is life energy or ki. It wasn't formed through memories, but given to Hyrule by the Minish
Both the Masks and the Light Force grant their wielder the power of whoever is within it. Since the Fierce Deity is the combined memories/power of everyone in Termina and the Light Force is the combined life/power of everyone in Hyrule why should they be all that different?
He does lack certain abilities and items, but the strength and durability remain the same, as shown when he travels back to his original timeline and still possesses the same number of Hearts. The Medallions themselves, however, only represented the Sages' power. "Adding to Link's strength" refers to how they will help Link seal away Dorf, not boost his stats. The weapons themselves (namely the Megaton Hammer and the Biggoron Sword) are only as good as Link's strength
Okay, so durability stays the same. But do you have any proof that strength stays the same? This is coming down to game mechanics at this point. The stats of the weapons aren't going to change because its a video game. However we know that Link is explicitly weaker as a child, which is why he couldn't wield the Master Sword.
You have really been pushing this idea that because Link is a child, all his strength is rendered moot. He might not be as strong as his teenage form, but recall this is still a kid that can kill giant monsters even with a Kokiri sword and a slingshot. He also should really not be that far from other Links his age at all, who I remind you are also able to take monsters and versions of Ganon on too. Being younger is not a huge setback at all
Superman as a kid can still destroy cities, that doesn't remotely imply he is equal to his adult counterpart.
Agreed, conquering the world is completely different than destroying it. That's why this nonsense that Demise was supposedly going to literally destroy the world simply isn't true. Demise's own quotes prove that
The quote never says he was going to destroy the world. It says he can destroy it.
Since using gameplay (Biggoron's sword hurting Ganon) seems to be apart of your argument, then I can also back up my point that he just did it to be extra sure by saying you can beat Majora without the Deity Mask.
Why exactly would they be unequal in power? They might grant different, vague boosts, but the overall boosts they give should be similar to each other
Because lore doesn't care about vs. contexts. If I make a game where an artifact lets one person control neutronium and another control gold they're both "equal", but one is better in a vs. context. Otherwise what's the purpose of the ToP if it doesn't actually make Ganon any more powerful than the ToC or ToW?
Operating with similar mechanics doesn't make them equal BTW. Luke Cage's super strength works just like the Thing's super strength, except the Thing has far better feats, something the Light Force sorely lacks. And the worse thing about it? It actually isn't how the Light Force works at all. It's actually a condensed/more powerful form of Force, which basically is life energy or ki. It wasn't formed through memories, but given to Hyrule by the Minish
Both the Masks and the Light Force grant their wielder the power of whoever is within it. Since the Fierce Deity is the combined memories/power of everyone in Termina and the Light Force is the combined life/power of everyone in Hyrule why should they be all that different?
He does lack certain abilities and items, but the strength and durability remain the same, as shown when he travels back to his original timeline and still possesses the same number of Hearts. The Medallions themselves, however, only represented the Sages' power. "Adding to Link's strength" refers to how they will help Link seal away Dorf, not boost his stats. The weapons themselves (namely the Megaton Hammer and the Biggoron Sword) are only as good as Link's strength
Okay, so durability stays the same. But do you have any proof that strength stays the same? This is coming down to game mechanics at this point. The stats of the weapons aren't going to change because its a video game. However we know that Link is explicitly weaker as a child, which is why he couldn't wield the Master Sword.
You have really been pushing this idea that because Link is a child, all his strength is rendered moot. He might not be as strong as his teenage form, but recall this is still a kid that can kill giant monsters even with a Kokiri sword and a slingshot. He also should really not be that far from other Links his age at all, who I remind you are also able to take monsters and versions of Ganon on too. Being younger is not a huge setback at all
Superman as a kid can still destroy cities, that doesn't remotely imply he is equal to his adult counterpart.
Agreed, conquering the world is completely different than destroying it. That's why this nonsense that Demise was supposedly going to literally destroy the world simply isn't true. Demise's own quotes prove that
The quote never says he was going to destroy the world. It says he can destroy it.
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"Since using gameplay (Biggoron's sword hurting Ganon) seems to be apart of your argument, then I can also back up my point that he just did it to be extra sure by saying you can beat Majora without the Deity Mask."
It's not gameplay mechanics though. In their fight, Link had to tely on one of those two weapons after he was separated from the Master Sword. What you can or can't do without the FDM is irrelevant because Link still found the need to use it
"Otherwise what's the purpose of the ToP if it doesn't actually make Ganon any more powerful than the ToC or ToW?"
Actually, there is none. This whole notion that the Triforce pieces grant certain specific abilities to their weilders is actually never stated in any Zelda game. They grant some sort of boost to their stats and magical power, but recieving anything other bonus that would separate each piece from each other is pretty unfounded and seem to be based more on theory. Whatever the case may be, we simply can't say that one piece is radically superior to the others overall
"Both the Masks and the Light Force grant their wielder the power of whoever is within it. Since the Fierce Deity is the combined memories/power of everyone in Termina and the Light Force is the combined life/power of everyone in Hyrule why should they be all that different?"
Except the Light Force isn't the combined life/power of everyone in Hyrule. The Light Force is a more potent or condensed form of the life energy/Life Force withing people, not a Spirit Bomb-like gathering of ALL of Hyrule's life energy. And life energy =/= memories. Not that it matters. Feats are what's important
"Okay, so durability stays the same. But do you have any proof that strength stays the same? This is coming down to game mechanics at this point. The stats of the weapons aren't going to change because its a video game. However we know that Link is explicitly weaker as a child, which is why he couldn't wield the Master Sword."
Naturally an older Link would be stronger than a younger Link to some degree. If you had read through what I said carefully, I was saying that the idea of Link only defeating Dorf with the Master Sword is faulty, as his own physical strength was enough to bring him to his knees using non-holy weapons. That's not gameplay mechanics, bud, that's a canon fact
And Link couldn't weild the Master Sword because of destiny. He was fated to defeat Dorf as a young man, not as a child. It never said it had anything to do with his strength
"Only one worthy of the title of "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time.... However, you were too young to be the Hero of Time.... Therefore, your spirit was sealed here for seven years." — Rauru (Ocarina of Time)
Like I said, age plus the Gauntlets should make Teen Link stronger, but Young Link is also very strong on his own and even stronger than that with the ToC, which would put him at a level above other Links his age that didn't have it
"Superman as a kid can still destroy cities, that doesn't remotely imply he is equal to his adult counterpart"
Okay, so it looks like you didn't see my comment on the other Links his age at all then. I'll have to repeat myself I guess
OoT Link is no weaker than other Links around his age. Some of these Links, regardless of not possessing the Master Sword or the ToC, were able to harm Ganon. Logic dictates that the ToC would boost OoT Link's stats to a level above these other Links' stats, so it's very much possible OoT Link can hurt Ganon too with his strikes, though obviously to a lesser degree than his Adult form that possessed the Master Sword and the Gauntlets
"The quote never says he was going to destroy the world. It says he can destroy it."
Correct...by having his army kill everyone then ruling everything. Not by literally destroying the planet. I already provided the necessary quote directly from Demise's mouth. You are arguing in circles at this point
It's not gameplay mechanics though. In their fight, Link had to tely on one of those two weapons after he was separated from the Master Sword. What you can or can't do without the FDM is irrelevant because Link still found the need to use it
"Otherwise what's the purpose of the ToP if it doesn't actually make Ganon any more powerful than the ToC or ToW?"
Actually, there is none. This whole notion that the Triforce pieces grant certain specific abilities to their weilders is actually never stated in any Zelda game. They grant some sort of boost to their stats and magical power, but recieving anything other bonus that would separate each piece from each other is pretty unfounded and seem to be based more on theory. Whatever the case may be, we simply can't say that one piece is radically superior to the others overall
"Both the Masks and the Light Force grant their wielder the power of whoever is within it. Since the Fierce Deity is the combined memories/power of everyone in Termina and the Light Force is the combined life/power of everyone in Hyrule why should they be all that different?"
Except the Light Force isn't the combined life/power of everyone in Hyrule. The Light Force is a more potent or condensed form of the life energy/Life Force withing people, not a Spirit Bomb-like gathering of ALL of Hyrule's life energy. And life energy =/= memories. Not that it matters. Feats are what's important
"Okay, so durability stays the same. But do you have any proof that strength stays the same? This is coming down to game mechanics at this point. The stats of the weapons aren't going to change because its a video game. However we know that Link is explicitly weaker as a child, which is why he couldn't wield the Master Sword."
Naturally an older Link would be stronger than a younger Link to some degree. If you had read through what I said carefully, I was saying that the idea of Link only defeating Dorf with the Master Sword is faulty, as his own physical strength was enough to bring him to his knees using non-holy weapons. That's not gameplay mechanics, bud, that's a canon fact
And Link couldn't weild the Master Sword because of destiny. He was fated to defeat Dorf as a young man, not as a child. It never said it had anything to do with his strength
"Only one worthy of the title of "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time.... However, you were too young to be the Hero of Time.... Therefore, your spirit was sealed here for seven years." — Rauru (Ocarina of Time)
Like I said, age plus the Gauntlets should make Teen Link stronger, but Young Link is also very strong on his own and even stronger than that with the ToC, which would put him at a level above other Links his age that didn't have it
"Superman as a kid can still destroy cities, that doesn't remotely imply he is equal to his adult counterpart"
Okay, so it looks like you didn't see my comment on the other Links his age at all then. I'll have to repeat myself I guess
OoT Link is no weaker than other Links around his age. Some of these Links, regardless of not possessing the Master Sword or the ToC, were able to harm Ganon. Logic dictates that the ToC would boost OoT Link's stats to a level above these other Links' stats, so it's very much possible OoT Link can hurt Ganon too with his strikes, though obviously to a lesser degree than his Adult form that possessed the Master Sword and the Gauntlets
"The quote never says he was going to destroy the world. It says he can destroy it."
Correct...by having his army kill everyone then ruling everything. Not by literally destroying the planet. I already provided the necessary quote directly from Demise's mouth. You are arguing in circles at this point
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I do believe we've reached the point of argument repitition, so let me keep this relatively short and address what I haven't addressed multiple times already:
1) He used it because it was a boost, and that's logical for him to use as a result? You're saying that as if it was quantifiable, and on top of that making all sorts of assumptions about how Link thinks and acts. No, that's not how proof works.
Even the assertion that "He needed to use its power, the reason being that he couldn't beat Majora on his own" is presumptous, as that is never said... anywhere, actually. Where, pray tell, did it say he needed to?
2) Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. That Link wielded the Picori Blade to beat Vaati.
Triforce of Courage? Since when did I argue that this held any sort of quantifiable boost in raw power that's translatable to DC? And again, with the likelys and the theory-calling and the speculation. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't really matter if Link got "wrecked" by Majora in Majora's Mask, as
A: When this happened to Link in Majora's Mask, it wasn't in any way quantifiable in DC as far as Majora overpowering him,
B: Even if it somehow was, this was after Zelda rewrote time and created two timelines by sending Link to the past, preventing Ganon's usurpation of the throne from ever happening to begin with. This means he never retained the power he got from anything obtaining the Master Sword and onwards he achieved while he was an adult, as it never happened in the first place. Link, for much of Majora's Mask, wasn't Multi-Continent: at the end, he was. That's all we know, and Link: indeed, many fictional characters: inexplicably getting stronger as a story progresses happens all the time. Correlation does not imply causation.
C: On top of all of this, you're trying to say that the Triforce of Courage "likely" giving him "some sort of buff" automatically makes him so and so powerful, as if that automatically made him anything.
3) Vaati kidnapping Zelda after haxxing her, or before she knew how to wield the Light Force, suddenly makes her useless?
Also, it was in fact the Light Force that was needed to help power the cap, as that sort of correlates with her being of pure heart and such, not that you bringing that up really changes anything since future generations are plenty capable of using the whole of it again now that Vaati, who had absorbed most of it, was destroyed.
"The curse on me is broken, and Zelda still possesses some of the light force. Perhaps, together, we can do something to make things right. If one with a just heart wears this cap, things can be made right again. Princess Zelda! Let your wishes be made real!" — Ezlo
"taking a back hand from Dorf doesn't really mean her durability scales to Dorf's DC."
What?
"Same goes with tanking the Dead Man's Volley blasts, which while a decent feat, doesn't really mean Dorf was able to use his full power using her as a vessel."
Are you just assuming he can't because he's possessing another person's body? That seems an awful lot like speculation given that, I don't know, this was implied nowhere in the narrative, or really anywhere I've seen for that matter. So yeah, still has happened more than once.
4) What you said is based on the assumption that Majora's Mask Link is allowed to retain feats that, in his timeline, never happened to begin with. So no, him getting annihlated by Majora's moon drop before the end-game amounts to nothing of any real value, in fact that's rather in keeping with what I just said.
Demise) His "commanding power to destroy the world" in no way contradicts his end-goals. If anything, it's perfectly in-keeping with how it went down: why would he go out and wield all that power on the Earth in he wants to rule it? Why destroy what he wants to rule? Naah, Hyperbole's still the only argument I'm seeing.
-"Link wished for Demise/The Imprisoned to die. The Triforce took that as dropping the island on him, which killed him. There's no way to argue around that"
And... I argued this happening when? I said that the wish granted by the Triforce caused the Imprisoned's death: this taking the form of an island drop doesn't really mean anything. It was still the fact that the wish was made that resulted in the Imprisoned's death.
There's two problems with this argument anyways:
A: The argument that The Imprisoned is somehow is equivalent to Demise's full power, when the entire point of him being The Imprisoned in the first place was to keep Demise from taking his true physical form and thus effectively wield his power.
"Stripped of his true physical form by the seal that binds him, he takes the shape of an abomination." — Zelda
B: What someone gets killed by in-fiction, even in a cutscene, in no way is a limit to their durability. Again, remember that time Zack Fair, a Dwarf Star level guy, died in cutscene to what are basically ordinary bullets? Perhaps that time Goku infamously got shot through the chest by a laser ring? Someone dying to something in fiction is no reason to downplay their durability, especially when they're not even close to their peak as described earlier.
1) He used it because it was a boost, and that's logical for him to use as a result? You're saying that as if it was quantifiable, and on top of that making all sorts of assumptions about how Link thinks and acts. No, that's not how proof works.
Even the assertion that "He needed to use its power, the reason being that he couldn't beat Majora on his own" is presumptous, as that is never said... anywhere, actually. Where, pray tell, did it say he needed to?
2) Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. That Link wielded the Picori Blade to beat Vaati.
Triforce of Courage? Since when did I argue that this held any sort of quantifiable boost in raw power that's translatable to DC? And again, with the likelys and the theory-calling and the speculation. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't really matter if Link got "wrecked" by Majora in Majora's Mask, as
A: When this happened to Link in Majora's Mask, it wasn't in any way quantifiable in DC as far as Majora overpowering him,
B: Even if it somehow was, this was after Zelda rewrote time and created two timelines by sending Link to the past, preventing Ganon's usurpation of the throne from ever happening to begin with. This means he never retained the power he got from anything obtaining the Master Sword and onwards he achieved while he was an adult, as it never happened in the first place. Link, for much of Majora's Mask, wasn't Multi-Continent: at the end, he was. That's all we know, and Link: indeed, many fictional characters: inexplicably getting stronger as a story progresses happens all the time. Correlation does not imply causation.
C: On top of all of this, you're trying to say that the Triforce of Courage "likely" giving him "some sort of buff" automatically makes him so and so powerful, as if that automatically made him anything.
3) Vaati kidnapping Zelda after haxxing her, or before she knew how to wield the Light Force, suddenly makes her useless?
Also, it was in fact the Light Force that was needed to help power the cap, as that sort of correlates with her being of pure heart and such, not that you bringing that up really changes anything since future generations are plenty capable of using the whole of it again now that Vaati, who had absorbed most of it, was destroyed.
"The curse on me is broken, and Zelda still possesses some of the light force. Perhaps, together, we can do something to make things right. If one with a just heart wears this cap, things can be made right again. Princess Zelda! Let your wishes be made real!" — Ezlo
"taking a back hand from Dorf doesn't really mean her durability scales to Dorf's DC."
What?
"Same goes with tanking the Dead Man's Volley blasts, which while a decent feat, doesn't really mean Dorf was able to use his full power using her as a vessel."
Are you just assuming he can't because he's possessing another person's body? That seems an awful lot like speculation given that, I don't know, this was implied nowhere in the narrative, or really anywhere I've seen for that matter. So yeah, still has happened more than once.
4) What you said is based on the assumption that Majora's Mask Link is allowed to retain feats that, in his timeline, never happened to begin with. So no, him getting annihlated by Majora's moon drop before the end-game amounts to nothing of any real value, in fact that's rather in keeping with what I just said.
Demise) His "commanding power to destroy the world" in no way contradicts his end-goals. If anything, it's perfectly in-keeping with how it went down: why would he go out and wield all that power on the Earth in he wants to rule it? Why destroy what he wants to rule? Naah, Hyperbole's still the only argument I'm seeing.
-"Link wished for Demise/The Imprisoned to die. The Triforce took that as dropping the island on him, which killed him. There's no way to argue around that"
And... I argued this happening when? I said that the wish granted by the Triforce caused the Imprisoned's death: this taking the form of an island drop doesn't really mean anything. It was still the fact that the wish was made that resulted in the Imprisoned's death.
There's two problems with this argument anyways:
A: The argument that The Imprisoned is somehow is equivalent to Demise's full power, when the entire point of him being The Imprisoned in the first place was to keep Demise from taking his true physical form and thus effectively wield his power.
"Stripped of his true physical form by the seal that binds him, he takes the shape of an abomination." — Zelda
B: What someone gets killed by in-fiction, even in a cutscene, in no way is a limit to their durability. Again, remember that time Zack Fair, a Dwarf Star level guy, died in cutscene to what are basically ordinary bullets? Perhaps that time Goku infamously got shot through the chest by a laser ring? Someone dying to something in fiction is no reason to downplay their durability, especially when they're not even close to their peak as described earlier.
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Hey. I'm still here. I'm just letting the pros do the main stuff.
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LordXcano said:
Absolutely not. Not when there are still points to break down and when others like Wexler or Homie haven't had a chance to voice their pieces on them. The mods can come in and form their own opinions, but it wouldn't be right to not give others a chance to speak
That being said, I'll address Perps points tomorrow
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Patience, Xcano. We can give them a couple of days.
...also, not really related to the thread itself, but I'll apologize now if anyone feels I've trated them dickishly or harshly treated. This is definitely the most stressful thread I've participated in since I've joined this wiki, amplified many times over by how I was effectively kept from actually participating in it until basically the end at which point many people are just burnt out with it in general. I'm not going to change my stance, as I've said time and time again, but I don't want a disagreeance over stats to spark bad blood on the Wiki as I'm concerned it already has. You all understand, right?
...also, not really related to the thread itself, but I'll apologize now if anyone feels I've trated them dickishly or harshly treated. This is definitely the most stressful thread I've participated in since I've joined this wiki, amplified many times over by how I was effectively kept from actually participating in it until basically the end at which point many people are just burnt out with it in general. I'm not going to change my stance, as I've said time and time again, but I don't want a disagreeance over stats to spark bad blood on the Wiki as I'm concerned it already has. You all understand, right?
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@ThePerpetual Well, I do not think that you have behaved badly, and for the moment I am inclined to agree with you.
However, after this is done, you will likely have to go through the Zelda profiles, and appropriately improve on the explanations, and linked references, for the tiers.
Also, the rest of the staff are not going to come here unless you, or somebody else, tell them on their message walls that I have specifically asked for their help to evaluate this thread, as it is quite important, considering that this is a major franchise.
However, after this is done, you will likely have to go through the Zelda profiles, and appropriately improve on the explanations, and linked references, for the tiers.
Also, the rest of the staff are not going to come here unless you, or somebody else, tell them on their message walls that I have specifically asked for their help to evaluate this thread, as it is quite important, considering that this is a major franchise.
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Thanks for understanding Antvas, it means a lot.
I've already messaged them all, actually, at least I think so. I didn't miss anyone, did I...?
I've already messaged them all, actually, at least I think so. I didn't miss anyone, did I...?
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Well, if that was some time ago, you can send all of the administrators, moderators, calculation group members, and possibly ChaosTheory123 another message each, and tell them that I specifically asked for help to evaluate this, as the topic will never be concluded othervise.
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Claiming you've addressed stuff already and that you've reached the point of argument repetition to try to discredit arguments your opponent has made is unjust IMO. If he had tried to ignore arguments you made because he believed they had been addressed would that be right? This isn't a black and white debate where because you believe you addressed something you've proven against it without a doubt.ThePerpetual said:
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1) How about the fact that Link will be absolutely wiped out by the moon drop at literally any point of the story should he fail to stop Majora, from the first dungeon to just before facing Majora? If Link got so much stronger since the start of the game, how come he still gets obliterated, Perp? Because he's not on Majora's level. You've resorted to repeating your "lolassumptions" argument when really everything points to Link needing a significant boost in the form of FDM to beat Majora. Majora owned him in the beginning of the game and, should you fail to stop it, every single point in the game after the three day limit runs out. If end of game Link didn't need the FDM, he wouldn't have found the need to put it on. Your argument that Link only put on the mask, meanwhile, basically amounts to "just because he could," which goes against any common sense based on the previously established facts and is completely unfounded
I provided a logical reason why he put it on for my argument based on the actual events in the game and simple common sense. You haven't, and yet you continue to dwell on an honestly open-and-shut case. This isn't debating anymore, Perp; it's filibustering, and this topic requires no further discussion at this point
2) I find it very hard to believe the Picori Sword, or any weapon for matter, trumps a Triforce piece. Holy artifact with a direct connection to the Goddesses would give them more potency, as shown by how the ToP overpowers any artifact it comes into contact with, from the Fused Shadows to the Sage Sword. And no, it would make no sense for the ToP to grant Dorf so much more power than Link, especially with all the talk the series has given about the Triforce serving as a complete balance between the three concepts
"The Triforce...the sacred triangle...it is a balance that weighs the three forces: Power, Wisdom and Courage." — Sheik (Ocarina of Time)
Not enough? Dorf himself acknowledges the ToC has power too . As for yor other points:
A) The moon drop most certainly applies to Majora's DC, which Link at any point in the game would be killed by
B) Except this isn't Back to the Future logic; this is Zelda, and Zelda timelines follow much different rules than we're used to in fiction. All Zelda did was send Link back to the past to warn the King of Dorf's treachery, and as we see during any point in the game, young Link retains the durability he gains from his adventure in the form of Hearts. Nothing suggests Link loses all his strength and experience gained during his adventures as a child in OoT, and we even see he can still overpower giant monsters towards the beginning of MM. MM exists as further proof of this, with him still retaining Hearts, masks, etc. after travelling back to the first day
Him preventing Dorf from doing his thing didn't erase the Future timeline, as that is the basis for every game from Wind Waker onwards. And lastly, young Link still has the ToC at the end of the game, as that is what the Hyrule Historia claims was Link's proof to the King. This is why we don't go by normal time travel logic when discussing Zelda
C) Here's the video again for you
3) Yea, actually it would make her useless, because what's the point of possessing the full Light Force if she had no idea how to use it? What Vaati thought she could eventually do with it is irrelevant, as she never had a chance to utilize the full power. And no, there is no reason to believe Zelda got the Light Force she lost back, which is further proven by Vaati's more demonic form returning in later games
Read the quote again. Ezlo said that a pure heart would reverse the evil magic caused by the Mage's Cap
"The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer into reality. Vaati's heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in what he became. But it seems that Zelda's pure heart, coupled with the hat's power... has created a miracle!" — Ezlo (The Minish Cap)
He never said Zelda's pure heart was a result of the Light Force. All Zelda's are said to be pure hearted, even SS Zelda, who existed before the Minish gave the Light Force to Hyrule. She doesn't need the Light Force to make her a good person, she just is. You don't think being the reincarnation of Hylia helps with that?
"What?"
Dorf swatted her away with his backhand like a fly. Do you really think he's putting his all into that slap? Of course not, so we don't say Zelda's durability scales to his DC based off of that
"Are you just assuming he can't because he's possessing another person's body? That seems an awful lot like speculation given that, I don't know, this was implied nowhere in the narrative, or really anywhere I've seen for that matter. So yeah, still has happened more than once."
It's been the case other times we see a similar possession in Zelda. Majora, for example, dumped Skull Kid because his body was too weak to use the full extent of his abilities in. We can assume other possessions follow similar logic. The alternative would be that Zelda can straight up tank multiple magic blasts from Dorf, which directly contradicts almost every other time we see Zelda take a hit from Dorf, even non serious ones like in Wind Waker
4) I point to my previous comments on why you're completely wrong in think of Zelda time travel in this way
On Demise
"Hyperbole's still the only argument I'm seeing."
Because it's the only argument we need. You have a statement and a statement alone. Nothing proves your point at all while everything else points to the fact that Demise was going to "destroy the world" via conquering it. The Imprisoned was killed by a small chunk of rock dropping on him; Demise's own quotes mention ruling the world and not destroying it; and the prologue mentions Demise's minions murdering citizens and destroying their homes
"A: The argument that The Imprisoned is somehow is equivalent to Demise's full power, when the entire point of him being The Imprisoned in the first place was to keep Demise from taking his true physical form and thus effectively wield his power."
But that's the thing: if you posted the full quote, you'd see that the Imprisoned still retained at least the majority of his power even as the Imprisoned, likely even all of it
"Stripped of his true physical form by the seal that binds him, he takes the shape of an abomination. But even in his hideous state, he's more than capable of devouring this land if we allow him to do what he desires." — Zelda (Skyward Sword)
Ignoring the obvious hyperbole, the transformation made him feral and unable to use his power effectively as you said, but that doesn't necessarily mean his durability was vastly decreased
"B: What someone gets killed by in-fiction, even in a cutscene, in no way is a limit to their durability. Again, remember that time Zack Fair, a Dwarf Star level guy, died in cutscene to what are basically ordinary bullets? Perhaps that time Goku infamously got shot through the chest by a laser ring? Someone dying to something in fiction is no reason to downplay their durability, especially when they're not even close to their peak as described earlier."
Zack was killed because of being constantly spammed by Mako bullets, which bypass his durability. How do we know they were Mako bullets? Because Shinra used Mako in everything
"Mako, in various forms, is found in weapons used by Shinra. The Junon Mako Cannon uses a variety of Mako shells, and later, as the Sister Ray, fires a beam of raw Mako energy. As Materia, Mako has been employed by some of Shinra's Turk operatives who wield it in their weapons in Before Crisis -Final Fantasy VII-, and First Class members of SOLDIER can to synthesize custom Materia, as shown in Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII-. In addition to the energy resource and weaponry allocations of Mako, the Shinra corporation develops Mako-powered cars for civilian purposes." ― Final Fantasy Wiki
So Mako is used in everything from cars, to energy reactors, to weapons. Even civilian handguns utilize Mako in some ways , so it would make a lot of sense for hired mercs to have at least a similar arsenal
Goku, on the other hand, was distracted by Frieza and let guard down, giving Sorbet a chance to shoot him. This was a CIS moment meant to highlight a character flaw in Goku, not a PIS moment that outright contradicts Goku's previously established durability. Goku being harmed by this laser with no ki-defenses up whatsoever doesn't contradict anything
If you're going to pull examples from other franchises, you had better well know the context behind the events you're talking about. The Imprisoned, who had no indication of having vastly lower durability than his true form of Demise, was flatted by a giant rock like a pancake. This doesn't contradict anything since we see Link, Demise, or anyone else tank a similar level of force no problem
I provided a logical reason why he put it on for my argument based on the actual events in the game and simple common sense. You haven't, and yet you continue to dwell on an honestly open-and-shut case. This isn't debating anymore, Perp; it's filibustering, and this topic requires no further discussion at this point
2) I find it very hard to believe the Picori Sword, or any weapon for matter, trumps a Triforce piece. Holy artifact with a direct connection to the Goddesses would give them more potency, as shown by how the ToP overpowers any artifact it comes into contact with, from the Fused Shadows to the Sage Sword. And no, it would make no sense for the ToP to grant Dorf so much more power than Link, especially with all the talk the series has given about the Triforce serving as a complete balance between the three concepts
"The Triforce...the sacred triangle...it is a balance that weighs the three forces: Power, Wisdom and Courage." — Sheik (Ocarina of Time)
Not enough? Dorf himself acknowledges the ToC has power too . As for yor other points:
A) The moon drop most certainly applies to Majora's DC, which Link at any point in the game would be killed by
B) Except this isn't Back to the Future logic; this is Zelda, and Zelda timelines follow much different rules than we're used to in fiction. All Zelda did was send Link back to the past to warn the King of Dorf's treachery, and as we see during any point in the game, young Link retains the durability he gains from his adventure in the form of Hearts. Nothing suggests Link loses all his strength and experience gained during his adventures as a child in OoT, and we even see he can still overpower giant monsters towards the beginning of MM. MM exists as further proof of this, with him still retaining Hearts, masks, etc. after travelling back to the first day
Him preventing Dorf from doing his thing didn't erase the Future timeline, as that is the basis for every game from Wind Waker onwards. And lastly, young Link still has the ToC at the end of the game, as that is what the Hyrule Historia claims was Link's proof to the King. This is why we don't go by normal time travel logic when discussing Zelda
C) Here's the video again for you
3) Yea, actually it would make her useless, because what's the point of possessing the full Light Force if she had no idea how to use it? What Vaati thought she could eventually do with it is irrelevant, as she never had a chance to utilize the full power. And no, there is no reason to believe Zelda got the Light Force she lost back, which is further proven by Vaati's more demonic form returning in later games
Read the quote again. Ezlo said that a pure heart would reverse the evil magic caused by the Mage's Cap
"The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer into reality. Vaati's heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in what he became. But it seems that Zelda's pure heart, coupled with the hat's power... has created a miracle!" — Ezlo (The Minish Cap)
He never said Zelda's pure heart was a result of the Light Force. All Zelda's are said to be pure hearted, even SS Zelda, who existed before the Minish gave the Light Force to Hyrule. She doesn't need the Light Force to make her a good person, she just is. You don't think being the reincarnation of Hylia helps with that?
"What?"
Dorf swatted her away with his backhand like a fly. Do you really think he's putting his all into that slap? Of course not, so we don't say Zelda's durability scales to his DC based off of that
"Are you just assuming he can't because he's possessing another person's body? That seems an awful lot like speculation given that, I don't know, this was implied nowhere in the narrative, or really anywhere I've seen for that matter. So yeah, still has happened more than once."
It's been the case other times we see a similar possession in Zelda. Majora, for example, dumped Skull Kid because his body was too weak to use the full extent of his abilities in. We can assume other possessions follow similar logic. The alternative would be that Zelda can straight up tank multiple magic blasts from Dorf, which directly contradicts almost every other time we see Zelda take a hit from Dorf, even non serious ones like in Wind Waker
4) I point to my previous comments on why you're completely wrong in think of Zelda time travel in this way
On Demise
"Hyperbole's still the only argument I'm seeing."
Because it's the only argument we need. You have a statement and a statement alone. Nothing proves your point at all while everything else points to the fact that Demise was going to "destroy the world" via conquering it. The Imprisoned was killed by a small chunk of rock dropping on him; Demise's own quotes mention ruling the world and not destroying it; and the prologue mentions Demise's minions murdering citizens and destroying their homes
"A: The argument that The Imprisoned is somehow is equivalent to Demise's full power, when the entire point of him being The Imprisoned in the first place was to keep Demise from taking his true physical form and thus effectively wield his power."
But that's the thing: if you posted the full quote, you'd see that the Imprisoned still retained at least the majority of his power even as the Imprisoned, likely even all of it
"Stripped of his true physical form by the seal that binds him, he takes the shape of an abomination. But even in his hideous state, he's more than capable of devouring this land if we allow him to do what he desires." — Zelda (Skyward Sword)
Ignoring the obvious hyperbole, the transformation made him feral and unable to use his power effectively as you said, but that doesn't necessarily mean his durability was vastly decreased
"B: What someone gets killed by in-fiction, even in a cutscene, in no way is a limit to their durability. Again, remember that time Zack Fair, a Dwarf Star level guy, died in cutscene to what are basically ordinary bullets? Perhaps that time Goku infamously got shot through the chest by a laser ring? Someone dying to something in fiction is no reason to downplay their durability, especially when they're not even close to their peak as described earlier."
Zack was killed because of being constantly spammed by Mako bullets, which bypass his durability. How do we know they were Mako bullets? Because Shinra used Mako in everything
"Mako, in various forms, is found in weapons used by Shinra. The Junon Mako Cannon uses a variety of Mako shells, and later, as the Sister Ray, fires a beam of raw Mako energy. As Materia, Mako has been employed by some of Shinra's Turk operatives who wield it in their weapons in Before Crisis -Final Fantasy VII-, and First Class members of SOLDIER can to synthesize custom Materia, as shown in Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII-. In addition to the energy resource and weaponry allocations of Mako, the Shinra corporation develops Mako-powered cars for civilian purposes." ― Final Fantasy Wiki
So Mako is used in everything from cars, to energy reactors, to weapons. Even civilian handguns utilize Mako in some ways , so it would make a lot of sense for hired mercs to have at least a similar arsenal
Goku, on the other hand, was distracted by Frieza and let guard down, giving Sorbet a chance to shoot him. This was a CIS moment meant to highlight a character flaw in Goku, not a PIS moment that outright contradicts Goku's previously established durability. Goku being harmed by this laser with no ki-defenses up whatsoever doesn't contradict anything
If you're going to pull examples from other franchises, you had better well know the context behind the events you're talking about. The Imprisoned, who had no indication of having vastly lower durability than his true form of Demise, was flatted by a giant rock like a pancake. This doesn't contradict anything since we see Link, Demise, or anyone else tank a similar level of force no problem
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Okay, first of all I wanna say sorry for not being able to contribute the last two days, been really busy and crap. I've been keeping track, but by the time I got back today Metabro was already two steps ahead of me and then some lol.
One thing I really wanna say that is honestly bothering me about the legitimacy of us reaching a verdict here is that people keep trying to bring back ChaosTheory123 into the thread, to the point of messaging him OFF site, where it is honestly seeming like it is going to lead to nothing but an appeal to his authority, and treating him as if he is on par with the moderators and administrators of this site. It's BIZARRE. I understand he has done a lot of calculations about Zelda, but NONE of those are in discussion right now. So why the special treatment?
Metabro has pretty much everything covered as of now, and I see no point to repeat him whilst all his points still firmly stand. I should be able to continue posting now anyway.
One thing I really wanna say that is honestly bothering me about the legitimacy of us reaching a verdict here is that people keep trying to bring back ChaosTheory123 into the thread, to the point of messaging him OFF site, where it is honestly seeming like it is going to lead to nothing but an appeal to his authority, and treating him as if he is on par with the moderators and administrators of this site. It's BIZARRE. I understand he has done a lot of calculations about Zelda, but NONE of those are in discussion right now. So why the special treatment?
Metabro has pretty much everything covered as of now, and I see no point to repeat him whilst all his points still firmly stand. I should be able to continue posting now anyway.
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If Ant is friends with Chaos he might come. If he isn't then he likely won't, so yeah. But I'm pretty sure Chaos already made his position clear earlier.
He did admit the calc was flawed in PMs, but he didn't make it, so I PMed Tacocat about it and they haven't replied yet.
He did admit the calc was flawed in PMs, but he didn't make it, so I PMed Tacocat about it and they haven't replied yet.
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Well, sending messages to every non-bureaucrat staff member takes time that I do not have when going through the daily backlog, but as I said, I would appreciate if somebody else could do it, and tell them that I request their help with this, as it is important.
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Perp has said he has already. I checked the walls of some and saw they said they had no interest. Do you want me to message them as well Antvasima? I don't particulary want to pester them, several of them checked in last time and agreed with me. Not much has particularly changed I think. Let me know.
Chaos said in his first post in the thread that he didn't even care to read the OP, just addressed two points. I'm not putting this whole discussion on hold for one person who is not even a mod. It's obvioud that those of us who have scoured the lore to make our points would have come across something game-changing, and to be honest, it seems more than a little disrespectful that people seem to be rallying for this one normal user to give his verdict, when he has clearly stated his opinion, to the point of(it seems) messaging him multiple times off site over this. At least Perpetual and some others put in the honest work in debating this.
Chaos said in his first post in the thread that he didn't even care to read the OP, just addressed two points. I'm not putting this whole discussion on hold for one person who is not even a mod. It's obvioud that those of us who have scoured the lore to make our points would have come across something game-changing, and to be honest, it seems more than a little disrespectful that people seem to be rallying for this one normal user to give his verdict, when he has clearly stated his opinion, to the point of(it seems) messaging him multiple times off site over this. At least Perpetual and some others put in the honest work in debating this.
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Well, I want them to read ThePerpetual's comments here before making a decision, because currently I am uncertain, and combined with that the OBD apparently agrees with him, that means that I am more inclined to letting things mostly be as they are, with TP improving on the clarifications within the profiles, in lack of better options.
In order to get anywhere, the rest of the staff needs to help me out by reading the current thread.
In order to get anywhere, the rest of the staff needs to help me out by reading the current thread.
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Can there be summaries about the evidence towards and against the Zelda downgrade? I'm really not sure any staff member can even get close to reading all of whats been said
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Well, it is probably enough to read ThePerpetual's posts, and the responses to them, within this thread.
Basically ThePerpetual wants to go by lore, and the OBD agrees with him, whereas Shad and Metabro want to go by feats.
Basically ThePerpetual wants to go by lore, and the OBD agrees with him, whereas Shad and Metabro want to go by feats.
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I'm pretty sure not too far back in the thread Shad made a summary. It shouldn't be too hard to find it.
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Ah in that case, lore usually fills in the gaps of feats for games like Loz, so I'll agree with Perp's side
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Xolon, the thing is that it sort of is. We're just saying the same things over and over, I'm not dismissing anything that's new or I wouldn't spend so much time typing up my comments. Not to mention the fact that they're the ones who have treated it as such a black-and-white issue?
Anyhow:
1) If you're going to be so condescending about your supposed "clear logic", ignore arguments you can't disprove, and continue to espouse your common sense and self-designated "established facts" as superior because you don't like mine, then yeah, really nothing more to discuss I suppose. Link managed to beat Majora's Mask at the very end of the game, not any time before it, and that's all there is to it. Him being or not being able to stand up to Majora before then doesn't change that. Not really sure if you've heard of the whole correlation does not imply causatio thing, but that is, in fact, a defined logical fallacy if used in arguments.
2) If all you're giving me here is an argument based on incredulity and contradictions to your own assertions that the pieces of the Triforce only provide an immense boost in power when united, then this isn't going anywhere.
Even the assertion that the pieces are all equal isn't true: they all rather explicitly provide different abilities to their wearer, and nothing the Triforce of Courage provides is any sort of quantifiable direct power that can be translated to DC/Durability. It "having power" doesn't mean it has any quantifiable power, particularly not when it's only really been shown to protect him from and repel dark forces/beings. It is proof of courage: if anything, that's what Ganondorf is underestimating, the ability to overcome adversity without the power he so values.
The Triforce of Courage? Provides Courage, and associated abilities. The Triforce of Wisdom? Provides Wisdom, and associated abilities. The Triforce of Power? Wouldn't you know it, it provides power.
A: Except for the very end, again.
B: That's not even remotely what I said, but this point is irrelevant anyways, as Link lacks both the Master Sword and the six Sage medallions which he required to beat Ganondorf in the first place.
--"his own physical strength was enough to bring him to his knees using non-holy weapons. That's not gameplay mechanics, bud, that's a canon fact"
Err, proof? At any rate, even if that happened for a while, both the Biggoron's Sword and the Megaton Hammer are both also only for Adult Link so this still has nothing to do with Kid Link, and on top of that this was when he had acquired the Six Sage Medallions which gave him the power of the Six Sages. He didn't retain even one of these items in Majora's Mask.
C: See above.
3) Two separate games. She never used it in the original Four Swords, for instance, where no such force was noticed in her by Vaati, whereas Minish Cap there is. If it didn't matter that she had it, then Ezlo never would have brought it up in the first place, particularly not in the context of solving everything that went wrong through the events of the game (including her losing the light force).
He backhanded her because he was, I don't know, irritated and disdainful of her constant light arrows? He had literally no reason to hold back at the time, especially not dozens or hundreds of times his actual strength, especially seeing how A: he was just driven to a maniac state of mind, as signaled by the enraged laughter, after he lost the Triforce, and B: the entire reason he wasn't going to kill them in the first place was because he was about to be able to achieve his wish, which afterwards didn't happen.
Also, the light arrows are capable of damaging Link himself in that fight should be get tagged by one: rather significantly, at that: so no saying her ability to hurt him is because it is the bane of evil things.
So wait, you're arguing that because Majora's Mask used possession, all other forms of possession in the series (of which there are many) must work the same way? Not only is this not implied in either narrative, it pretty explicitly works in entirely different ways: Majora's Mask possesses things that are wearing the mask, Ganondorf's essence flew into Zelda and operated from there. Nothing about this contradicts either the events of Majora's Mask or any of Zelda's other confrontations with Ganondorf.
4) Allow me to illustrate:
In a timeline, something occurs, and something else is caused as a result of the occurrence. Going backwards on that timeline in and of itself doesn't change the future that one later returns to, it simply places the subject (and any items they carry with them in this case) backwards on the same timeline as they were before. If someone were to go back in time and do something that directly prevented the cause that generated the initial effect, and it deliberately causes a split in a timeline, then the effect: what will become the future: is changed. The Link in that new timeline is no longer a part of the old future other than retaining the memories he attained there, they never happened in that time because they were prevented before they had the chance to happen.
We're not going to make special exceptions for Zelda regarding how time travel logic works; if you go back in time and stop something from happening, then it doesn't happen it that timeline. That's the entire reason those two timelines split in the first place. Your use of gameplay mechanics (hearts and item quantity) as an argument or pointing out that he kept a took a piece of the Triforce with him on his person to the new timeline doesn't change that.
And he never kept that boost as a kid post-game anyways: again, assuming you have any proof he didn't need the Master Sword and the power of the Six Sages to defeat Ganondorf when the cutscenes showed otherwise.
Demise) Good! Then debate that it's a hyperbole, not that the statement means something that it doesn't.
You apparently still don't really get statements, either, else you'd not be asking me for "proof" in that context: the statement is the proof of an assertion being made. If the creator of a character says they can bust a star, you ask them to "prove it", and they respond with "because I just said so and its my intellectual property?" That is a wholly legitimate author response, as the owner of the intellectual property they retain the ability to have the ultimate authority over their own work.
"Destroying" the world, at any rate, under no interpretation of its meaning, means "conquer." His goal was never to destroy the world, it was to claim the whole Triforce.
They burnt forests to ash, choked the land's sweet springs, and murdered without hesitation. They did all this in their lust to take the ultimate power protected by Her Grace, the goddess." -Skyward Sword intro
His having that level of power in no way contradicts that he wanted the Triforce, that he died in a weakened state to any given thing (in this case a wish), or that the source is reliable (as the Hyrule Historia is.)
A: Not really sure if you're trying to imply I purposefully left that out to deceive you somehow by not feeding you irrelevant red herrings, but yes, I've read both that and everything else on the Wiki page more than once now.
Let me get this straight: you are saying that Demise is only Island level, despite there being plenty else to scale from and the creators of the series saying otherwise, because a nerfed version of himself died, as a fictional character often will, to something well below their normal paygrade (a small section of an exceptionally small piece of island hitting you at fairly meh speeds is a lot less impressive than it sounds, most certainly not even Island level more likely than not.) On top of this, you are assuming that this nigh-featless form he was forced into also happens to have durability equal to Demise's because of
"But even in his hideous state, he's more than capable of devouring this land if we allow him to do what he desires."
Even though "But" is used to contrast two separate subjects, with The Imprisoned being capable of a whole of one statement which you yourself assert is hyperbolic in spite of being nerfed so much.
B: I know the context perfectly fine, thank you very much. I would ask why you believe every civilian gu in FF7 ever is either Dwarf Star level or bypasses durability up to such a scale, as well as how they can repeatedly tag blatantly vastly superhuman targets and all that good stuff, but for the sake of not straying from the topic it seems you're missing the point entirely, or else ignoring it as you try to use a character's low-end feats as their high-ends.
Hell, Link "dying" to Majora's moon drop is in and of itself quite questionable, as if you watched the cinematic, the wave of fire that blows him away stems from well over the horizon line, meaning that it's massively dispersed and Link is only being hit by a exceedingly small fraction of the explosion's energy. Only a direct hit would yield Multi-Continental force, that's just how splash damage works, so like the island drop this isn't "consistent" besides that this is a low-end feat.
I'd also like to point out how it then proceeds to say
"And then the angry moon fell from the sky, annihlating the world and its many inhabitants." -Majora's Mask narration
Immediately thereafter. Anyone care to explain why this isn't destroying the planet, or is it not being counted because it's part of an exposition that directs the player back to the game or something? Seems curious to me.
If this thread is just going to become glorification of the general inconsistency found in every fiction ever, then yes, I can agree that all that going to come out of this is filibustering, and that there is little point in further discussing this.
...speaking of filibusters, that's not something I've been called before. A filibuster...er? I don't see how I'm that given I've made it fairly clear I'd rather this not drag on, or that the same arguments be repeated over and over again, but if calling me a dick in this particular manner makes you feel better about your argument then go ahead I suppose.
@Antvas I did indeed attempt to contact them, but it seems that the majority are immensely burnt out from the whole ordeal. I can't exactly blame them for that.
Anyhow:
1) If you're going to be so condescending about your supposed "clear logic", ignore arguments you can't disprove, and continue to espouse your common sense and self-designated "established facts" as superior because you don't like mine, then yeah, really nothing more to discuss I suppose. Link managed to beat Majora's Mask at the very end of the game, not any time before it, and that's all there is to it. Him being or not being able to stand up to Majora before then doesn't change that. Not really sure if you've heard of the whole correlation does not imply causatio thing, but that is, in fact, a defined logical fallacy if used in arguments.
2) If all you're giving me here is an argument based on incredulity and contradictions to your own assertions that the pieces of the Triforce only provide an immense boost in power when united, then this isn't going anywhere.
Even the assertion that the pieces are all equal isn't true: they all rather explicitly provide different abilities to their wearer, and nothing the Triforce of Courage provides is any sort of quantifiable direct power that can be translated to DC/Durability. It "having power" doesn't mean it has any quantifiable power, particularly not when it's only really been shown to protect him from and repel dark forces/beings. It is proof of courage: if anything, that's what Ganondorf is underestimating, the ability to overcome adversity without the power he so values.
The Triforce of Courage? Provides Courage, and associated abilities. The Triforce of Wisdom? Provides Wisdom, and associated abilities. The Triforce of Power? Wouldn't you know it, it provides power.
A: Except for the very end, again.
B: That's not even remotely what I said, but this point is irrelevant anyways, as Link lacks both the Master Sword and the six Sage medallions which he required to beat Ganondorf in the first place.
--"his own physical strength was enough to bring him to his knees using non-holy weapons. That's not gameplay mechanics, bud, that's a canon fact"
Err, proof? At any rate, even if that happened for a while, both the Biggoron's Sword and the Megaton Hammer are both also only for Adult Link so this still has nothing to do with Kid Link, and on top of that this was when he had acquired the Six Sage Medallions which gave him the power of the Six Sages. He didn't retain even one of these items in Majora's Mask.
C: See above.
3) Two separate games. She never used it in the original Four Swords, for instance, where no such force was noticed in her by Vaati, whereas Minish Cap there is. If it didn't matter that she had it, then Ezlo never would have brought it up in the first place, particularly not in the context of solving everything that went wrong through the events of the game (including her losing the light force).
He backhanded her because he was, I don't know, irritated and disdainful of her constant light arrows? He had literally no reason to hold back at the time, especially not dozens or hundreds of times his actual strength, especially seeing how A: he was just driven to a maniac state of mind, as signaled by the enraged laughter, after he lost the Triforce, and B: the entire reason he wasn't going to kill them in the first place was because he was about to be able to achieve his wish, which afterwards didn't happen.
Also, the light arrows are capable of damaging Link himself in that fight should be get tagged by one: rather significantly, at that: so no saying her ability to hurt him is because it is the bane of evil things.
So wait, you're arguing that because Majora's Mask used possession, all other forms of possession in the series (of which there are many) must work the same way? Not only is this not implied in either narrative, it pretty explicitly works in entirely different ways: Majora's Mask possesses things that are wearing the mask, Ganondorf's essence flew into Zelda and operated from there. Nothing about this contradicts either the events of Majora's Mask or any of Zelda's other confrontations with Ganondorf.
4) Allow me to illustrate:
In a timeline, something occurs, and something else is caused as a result of the occurrence. Going backwards on that timeline in and of itself doesn't change the future that one later returns to, it simply places the subject (and any items they carry with them in this case) backwards on the same timeline as they were before. If someone were to go back in time and do something that directly prevented the cause that generated the initial effect, and it deliberately causes a split in a timeline, then the effect: what will become the future: is changed. The Link in that new timeline is no longer a part of the old future other than retaining the memories he attained there, they never happened in that time because they were prevented before they had the chance to happen.
We're not going to make special exceptions for Zelda regarding how time travel logic works; if you go back in time and stop something from happening, then it doesn't happen it that timeline. That's the entire reason those two timelines split in the first place. Your use of gameplay mechanics (hearts and item quantity) as an argument or pointing out that he kept a took a piece of the Triforce with him on his person to the new timeline doesn't change that.
And he never kept that boost as a kid post-game anyways: again, assuming you have any proof he didn't need the Master Sword and the power of the Six Sages to defeat Ganondorf when the cutscenes showed otherwise.
Demise) Good! Then debate that it's a hyperbole, not that the statement means something that it doesn't.
You apparently still don't really get statements, either, else you'd not be asking me for "proof" in that context: the statement is the proof of an assertion being made. If the creator of a character says they can bust a star, you ask them to "prove it", and they respond with "because I just said so and its my intellectual property?" That is a wholly legitimate author response, as the owner of the intellectual property they retain the ability to have the ultimate authority over their own work.
"Destroying" the world, at any rate, under no interpretation of its meaning, means "conquer." His goal was never to destroy the world, it was to claim the whole Triforce.
They burnt forests to ash, choked the land's sweet springs, and murdered without hesitation. They did all this in their lust to take the ultimate power protected by Her Grace, the goddess." -Skyward Sword intro
His having that level of power in no way contradicts that he wanted the Triforce, that he died in a weakened state to any given thing (in this case a wish), or that the source is reliable (as the Hyrule Historia is.)
A: Not really sure if you're trying to imply I purposefully left that out to deceive you somehow by not feeding you irrelevant red herrings, but yes, I've read both that and everything else on the Wiki page more than once now.
Let me get this straight: you are saying that Demise is only Island level, despite there being plenty else to scale from and the creators of the series saying otherwise, because a nerfed version of himself died, as a fictional character often will, to something well below their normal paygrade (a small section of an exceptionally small piece of island hitting you at fairly meh speeds is a lot less impressive than it sounds, most certainly not even Island level more likely than not.) On top of this, you are assuming that this nigh-featless form he was forced into also happens to have durability equal to Demise's because of
"But even in his hideous state, he's more than capable of devouring this land if we allow him to do what he desires."
Even though "But" is used to contrast two separate subjects, with The Imprisoned being capable of a whole of one statement which you yourself assert is hyperbolic in spite of being nerfed so much.
B: I know the context perfectly fine, thank you very much. I would ask why you believe every civilian gu in FF7 ever is either Dwarf Star level or bypasses durability up to such a scale, as well as how they can repeatedly tag blatantly vastly superhuman targets and all that good stuff, but for the sake of not straying from the topic it seems you're missing the point entirely, or else ignoring it as you try to use a character's low-end feats as their high-ends.
Hell, Link "dying" to Majora's moon drop is in and of itself quite questionable, as if you watched the cinematic, the wave of fire that blows him away stems from well over the horizon line, meaning that it's massively dispersed and Link is only being hit by a exceedingly small fraction of the explosion's energy. Only a direct hit would yield Multi-Continental force, that's just how splash damage works, so like the island drop this isn't "consistent" besides that this is a low-end feat.
I'd also like to point out how it then proceeds to say
"And then the angry moon fell from the sky, annihlating the world and its many inhabitants." -Majora's Mask narration
Immediately thereafter. Anyone care to explain why this isn't destroying the planet, or is it not being counted because it's part of an exposition that directs the player back to the game or something? Seems curious to me.
If this thread is just going to become glorification of the general inconsistency found in every fiction ever, then yes, I can agree that all that going to come out of this is filibustering, and that there is little point in further discussing this.
...speaking of filibusters, that's not something I've been called before. A filibuster...er? I don't see how I'm that given I've made it fairly clear I'd rather this not drag on, or that the same arguments be repeated over and over again, but if calling me a dick in this particular manner makes you feel better about your argument then go ahead I suppose.
@Antvas I did indeed attempt to contact them, but it seems that the majority are immensely burnt out from the whole ordeal. I can't exactly blame them for that.
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Well, if it is just up to me, I suppose that the least bad option is if you personally check through our Zelda profile pages, and make appropriate corrections and clarifications, while inserting references/links for confirmation.
However, I am uneasy with this solution, and would much rather get some help to evaluate this thread.
However, I am uneasy with this solution, and would much rather get some help to evaluate this thread.
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Well, yeah. I plan on combing through the profiles and checking for outdated info and such regardless of the conclusion reached.
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Xcano mentioned this "He did admit the calc was flawed in PMs, but he didn't make it, so I PMed Tacocat about it and they haven't replied yet." So I wouldn't say the OBD agrees with him. Not only because the OBD isn't one person but because someone from the OBD has admitted the Faron calc is flawed.Antvasima said:
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ThePerpetual wrote: I'd also like to point out how it then proceeds to say "And then the angry moon fell from the sky, annihlating the world and its many inhabitants." -Majora's Mask narration Immediately thereafter. Anyone care to explain why this isn't destroying the planet, or is it not being counted because it's part of an exposition that directs the player back to the game or something? Seems curious to me.
I had actually completely forgotten about this (probably because actually getting a Game Over in Majora's Mask is something that almost never happens unless you let it). Do you have a link to the text, because that seems it would imply much, much higher than Multi-Continent level and would be more akin to "At least High 6-A, probably/likely 5-B".
I had actually completely forgotten about this (probably because actually getting a Game Over in Majora's Mask is something that almost never happens unless you let it). Do you have a link to the text, because that seems it would imply much, much higher than Multi-Continent level and would be more akin to "At least High 6-A, probably/likely 5-B".
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Again, it's in the cinematic, immediately after the moon drop. Here's a more precise time.
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