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Whoops. Must've missed that. But while an obvious NLF, it must have some power to be described as infinite, right?
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Legend of Zelda downgrades. Part 2.
- Thread starter Antvasima
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The Spirits of Good created New Hyrule.ShadMorgen said:
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@Wexter I don't think you actually understand what logic precisely this guy is getting at. The creators of the game themselves are elaborating on how important/powerful so-and-so is ( when compared to another certain so-and-so that they also created. If the creators of two things say that one is greater than another, then that much stands as fact, as part of the game's lore.
@Space You're kinda taking the whole "rending the earth" thing way out of context, as already pointed out. And razing the planet's surface in one go is still just the surface, Multi-Continent, and that's if it's in one go. Which I suppose could make sense given that the goddess lifted Skyloft into the sky, away from the surface of the planet, but if that was indeed the case the only real explanations for the razing of the planet's surface not happening before then would be the demon's arrogance or PIS.
Here's the manga online, by the way.
@ShadMorgen Alright, so you're saying that the size of Hyrule is way lower than 3732 km across... then what is it? How big are you going to assume it is?
Also of note, in the actual map calc itself, its pointed out that A: Hyrule is referred to as a continent in the Hyrule Historia, and B: That this map isn't even all of it and that it is therefore likely higher. Feel free to counterargue that as you will, and yes I know about the whole "containing the land of Hyrule" thing, and how that supposedly means that it's some tiny country within the continent or whatever.
--"See, all you're doing here is stating hyperbole over and over, in the hope it sticks as evidence. It being described as "infinite" means nothing."
Except that it being described as "infinite", when being so described by the creators of the series themselves? In comparison to something else they created that is below it according to them in the same Hyrule Historia you've cited repeatedly now? A hyperbole (and here's the page for it too, in case it's needed) would be to actually try to claim it as infinite when nothing else in the verse approaches that level of power: it is not hyperbole to say that one thing is stronger than another when the creator and intellectual owner of both of these things makes a point of one being greater and more important than another in the mythos. You're addressing a point that doesn't exist.
What of the argument that Majora is stronger than the Triforce Pieces in practice? Errmm... The Ocarina of Time Legend of Zelda needed the help of the Ocarina of Time to defeat Ganondorf, the Link from A Link Between Worlds needed Ravio's Bracelet to defeat Yuga, and Links in general need certain items to beat the antagonist of any given game. Even if Link "needed" The Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora, that doesn't automatically mean that without it he suddenly decreases dramatically in power. I find the assertion particularly suspect given how it's pointed out elsewhere that it is not necessary to defeat it.
--"What the FDM was made of means nothing. Yes it was a stomp for FDM against Majora. We know this."
If I'm not mistaken, this is your sca as posted earlier that proves this? I fail to see how a statement that he "transformed into the Fierce Deity and eradicated the threat" means that he stomped it, or that he had to have it in order to beat Majora.
--'What the FDM is made of means NOTHING, and all you're doing is trying to make it sound less impressive, which isn't working."
When did Spaceman bring up what the Fierce Deity Mask was made of, exactly? Also, could you please refrain from writing in big, bold, angry letters at people?
--"I can do it too. "There is no way Kirby can planet bust! He's just a small pink blob!" See how ridiculous this looks?"'
That's not even remotely close to what anyone has said. Please don't try to imply such.
--"Except that Ganondorf + ToP > Zelda with the ToW, and Link + ToC > Ganondorf with ToP. Or are we now going to go BACKWARDS on those points, and suddenly go saying that the Triforce pieces are NOT equal? Up to you."
Well actually, going by this , the Triforce of Power does in fact provide more actual power than any of the other Triforce pieces, while the Triforce of Courage doesn't supply raw power so much as it protects its bearer. Link being on-par with Ganondorf is simply by virtue of him being the Hero Chosen By The Gods.
"Several games mention a Triforce Mark on Link's left hand, which identifies him either as a chosen hero or the holder of the Triforce of Courage." -Link's page
Which also means that a Triforce mark on his hand doesn't even prove that he wields the Triforce of Courage.
@Space You're kinda taking the whole "rending the earth" thing way out of context, as already pointed out. And razing the planet's surface in one go is still just the surface, Multi-Continent, and that's if it's in one go. Which I suppose could make sense given that the goddess lifted Skyloft into the sky, away from the surface of the planet, but if that was indeed the case the only real explanations for the razing of the planet's surface not happening before then would be the demon's arrogance or PIS.
Here's the manga online, by the way.
@ShadMorgen Alright, so you're saying that the size of Hyrule is way lower than 3732 km across... then what is it? How big are you going to assume it is?
Also of note, in the actual map calc itself, its pointed out that A: Hyrule is referred to as a continent in the Hyrule Historia, and B: That this map isn't even all of it and that it is therefore likely higher. Feel free to counterargue that as you will, and yes I know about the whole "containing the land of Hyrule" thing, and how that supposedly means that it's some tiny country within the continent or whatever.
--"See, all you're doing here is stating hyperbole over and over, in the hope it sticks as evidence. It being described as "infinite" means nothing."
Except that it being described as "infinite", when being so described by the creators of the series themselves? In comparison to something else they created that is below it according to them in the same Hyrule Historia you've cited repeatedly now? A hyperbole (and here's the page for it too, in case it's needed) would be to actually try to claim it as infinite when nothing else in the verse approaches that level of power: it is not hyperbole to say that one thing is stronger than another when the creator and intellectual owner of both of these things makes a point of one being greater and more important than another in the mythos. You're addressing a point that doesn't exist.
What of the argument that Majora is stronger than the Triforce Pieces in practice? Errmm... The Ocarina of Time Legend of Zelda needed the help of the Ocarina of Time to defeat Ganondorf, the Link from A Link Between Worlds needed Ravio's Bracelet to defeat Yuga, and Links in general need certain items to beat the antagonist of any given game. Even if Link "needed" The Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora, that doesn't automatically mean that without it he suddenly decreases dramatically in power. I find the assertion particularly suspect given how it's pointed out elsewhere that it is not necessary to defeat it.
--"What the FDM was made of means nothing. Yes it was a stomp for FDM against Majora. We know this."
If I'm not mistaken, this is your sca as posted earlier that proves this? I fail to see how a statement that he "transformed into the Fierce Deity and eradicated the threat" means that he stomped it, or that he had to have it in order to beat Majora.
--'What the FDM is made of means NOTHING, and all you're doing is trying to make it sound less impressive, which isn't working."
When did Spaceman bring up what the Fierce Deity Mask was made of, exactly? Also, could you please refrain from writing in big, bold, angry letters at people?
--"I can do it too. "There is no way Kirby can planet bust! He's just a small pink blob!" See how ridiculous this looks?"'
That's not even remotely close to what anyone has said. Please don't try to imply such.
--"Except that Ganondorf + ToP > Zelda with the ToW, and Link + ToC > Ganondorf with ToP. Or are we now going to go BACKWARDS on those points, and suddenly go saying that the Triforce pieces are NOT equal? Up to you."
Well actually, going by this , the Triforce of Power does in fact provide more actual power than any of the other Triforce pieces, while the Triforce of Courage doesn't supply raw power so much as it protects its bearer. Link being on-par with Ganondorf is simply by virtue of him being the Hero Chosen By The Gods.
"Several games mention a Triforce Mark on Link's left hand, which identifies him either as a chosen hero or the holder of the Triforce of Courage." -Link's page
Which also means that a Triforce mark on his hand doesn't even prove that he wields the Triforce of Courage.
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Raze the surface=/= Planet level. It's closer to continent level at best.
I could calc this if you wanted actually.
You seem to be taking the term "omnipotent" at face value. They're not at the same level as The One Above All or the Abrahamic God just because they have creation powers, that would be ridiculous. And it doesn't say anything about them creating a multiverse. I'm pretty sure a "multiverse" is never even mentioned in canon.
"Omnipotent" still means its the highest in a series. Multiverse isn't mentioned but it definitely exists, but we have no proof the Goddesses made it.https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/281894#75
SS prequel mange is 100% non-cano
Source? I thought it was ambiguous canon
Except that Ganondorf + ToP > Zelda with the ToW, and Link + ToC > Ganondorf with ToP. Or are we now going to go BACKWARDS on those points, and suddenly go saying that the Triforce pieces are NOT equal? Up to you.
I've been saying the Triforces pieces aren't equal by VS. standards this entire time. The ToC makes Link strong because he gets a mastery of weaponry and, well, courage. The ToW makes Zelda strong because she gains a mastery of magic. The ToP makes Ganon strong because he gets immense power. In-universe these are "equal" in the same way Benders are "equal" in Avatar. However by VS. standards Ganon would be > the others. One question I have is, how would Downfall Ganon scale, as he actually beat and probably killed adult ToC Link, as opposed to Majora incapacitating child ToC Link. Same way we scale everyone else. He beat Link so he's at least Link's level. Although I take this more as them being evenly matched in combat and Ganon getting lucky in this timeline.
I'll tell Chaos about the objections to the Faron calc and see how he replies.
I could calc this if you wanted actually.
You seem to be taking the term "omnipotent" at face value. They're not at the same level as The One Above All or the Abrahamic God just because they have creation powers, that would be ridiculous. And it doesn't say anything about them creating a multiverse. I'm pretty sure a "multiverse" is never even mentioned in canon.
"Omnipotent" still means its the highest in a series. Multiverse isn't mentioned but it definitely exists, but we have no proof the Goddesses made it.https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/281894#75
SS prequel mange is 100% non-cano
Source? I thought it was ambiguous canon
Except that Ganondorf + ToP > Zelda with the ToW, and Link + ToC > Ganondorf with ToP. Or are we now going to go BACKWARDS on those points, and suddenly go saying that the Triforce pieces are NOT equal? Up to you.
I've been saying the Triforces pieces aren't equal by VS. standards this entire time. The ToC makes Link strong because he gets a mastery of weaponry and, well, courage. The ToW makes Zelda strong because she gains a mastery of magic. The ToP makes Ganon strong because he gets immense power. In-universe these are "equal" in the same way Benders are "equal" in Avatar. However by VS. standards Ganon would be > the others. One question I have is, how would Downfall Ganon scale, as he actually beat and probably killed adult ToC Link, as opposed to Majora incapacitating child ToC Link. Same way we scale everyone else. He beat Link so he's at least Link's level. Although I take this more as them being evenly matched in combat and Ganon getting lucky in this timeline.
I'll tell Chaos about the objections to the Faron calc and see how he replies.
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Agree with a lot of this, so I'm gonna point out the thing I disagree with specificially, which is this. Hyrule Historia confirms Link needed the Fierce Deity mask to defeat Majora, and considering how much trouble he needed to go through to actually get it, I don't think he would have done this if he could have just won the battle on his own.ThePerpetual said:
Though a misconception seems to be that FD Link stomped Majora, but this is never stated. It basically just says "he won".
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@LordXcano the same reply is posted twice again like the last time in the original thread.
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Though a misconception seems to be that FD Link stomped Majora, but this is never stated. It basically just says "he won".
The misconception comes from it saying he "eliminated" Majora, which is a pretty harsh word for "kinda won" IMO but it can vary from person to person.
@ZZ Crap I'll have to delete one then
The misconception comes from it saying he "eliminated" Majora, which is a pretty harsh word for "kinda won" IMO but it can vary from person to person.
@ZZ Crap I'll have to delete one then
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It says FD Link eradicated Majora iirc. Which implies a stomp.LordXcano said:
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Eradicate means to destroy something completely. Gohan eradicated Cell, but he did not stomp him. In fact, he almost died. In this case, the connotation itself is not strong enough to imply a stomp, alone. In fact, despite how unstable the entity itself is, I doubt Majora would have given Link the FD mask if it didn't think it had a chance of winning, or simply wanted to lose and wasn't fighting back at its fullest.
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If I remember correctly, it wanted to lose, as it wanted the FD Mask, which is implied to be evil itself, to corrupt Link.
Or I could have been on Zelda Wiki too much and been putting too much work into the theories. But what do you expect me to do with theories. I'm an Undertale fan, as well as a LOST fan. Theories are what I live for.
Or I could have been on Zelda Wiki too much and been putting too much work into the theories. But what do you expect me to do with theories. I'm an Undertale fan, as well as a LOST fan. Theories are what I live for.
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Termina must be full of assholes, then.The real cal howard said:
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Considering the entire plot is revolved around healing screwed-up people (i.e. Termina's Ruto, Termina's Darunia), preventing a seemingly unavoidable armageddon, and the creepy mask salesman, who probably inspired Gaster, yeah. Termina is full of a-holes. Remember that the giants were gonna rip Skull Kid limb from limb from him playing harmless pranks for attention.
Another possible theory is that it was all just a game to Majora.
Another possible theory is that it was all just a game to Majora.
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Yep. Link went insane and became evil after losing Navi (for some reason). And there goes the theory of Link embodying the Tetraforce (yes. I know what I said) because he's perfect. Sigh. Majora was just trying to go all 40 Day Flood sped up on these evil counterparts, and Link got in the way.
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Can we stay on topic for the argument at hand.
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"Alright, so you're saying that the size of Hyrule is way lower than 3732 km across... then what is it? How big are you going to assume it is?"
That seems like a task your calc team might want to pursue
"Also of note, in the actual map calc itself, its pointed out that A: Hyrule is referred to as a continent in the Hyrule Historia, and B: That this map isn't even all of it and that it is therefore likely higher. Feel free to counterargue that as you will, and yes I know about the whole "containing the land of Hyrule" thing, and how that supposedly means that it's some tiny country within the continent or whatever."
A) You already answered your own point. Sits on a continent =/= having the size of a continent. To repeat a point I used in the previous thread, using the same logic you can say NYC is continent sized too
B) Yea, the author did say that the map he used didn't contain the full area of Hyrule. However, that doesn't excuse the calc being fundamentally wrong in regards to scaling a fraction of the sea as being the area of the Sea of California. To use a more extreme example, that's like scaling the entire size if the Atlantic Ocean into Chesapeake Bay. Doing that would GREATLY inflate the size of the U.S., just like how this calc greatly inflated Hyrule's size
"What of the argument that Majora is stronger than the Triforce Pieces in practice? Errmm... The Ocarina of Time Legend of Zelda needed the help of the Ocarina of Time to defeat Ganondorf, the Link from A Link Between Worlds needed Ravio's Bracelet to defeat Yuga, and Links in general need certain items to beat the antagonist of any given game. Even if Link "needed" The Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora, that doesn't automatically mean that without it he suddenly decreases dramatically in power. I find the assertion particularly suspect given how it's pointed out elsewhere that it is not necessary to defeat it."
Those examples aren't similar at all. True Link needed those items for his adventures, but Link specifically needed the FDM for the increase of power it provided, because otherwise Majora would stomp him. As it has been repeated ad nauseam, there is nothing wrong with assuming the full Triforce is indeed very, very powerful and more potent than any other object in the games. But Majora curbstomping an experienced Young Link wielding the ToC means that we can't assume the pieces are as powerful as the whole
"When did Spaceman bring up what the Fierce Deity Mask was made of, exactly? Also, could you please refrain from writing in big, bold, angry letters at people?"
He mentioned the fact that Majora's Mask was used for incantations by the ancient tribe, which is irrelevant to the discussion
That seems like a task your calc team might want to pursue
"Also of note, in the actual map calc itself, its pointed out that A: Hyrule is referred to as a continent in the Hyrule Historia, and B: That this map isn't even all of it and that it is therefore likely higher. Feel free to counterargue that as you will, and yes I know about the whole "containing the land of Hyrule" thing, and how that supposedly means that it's some tiny country within the continent or whatever."
A) You already answered your own point. Sits on a continent =/= having the size of a continent. To repeat a point I used in the previous thread, using the same logic you can say NYC is continent sized too
B) Yea, the author did say that the map he used didn't contain the full area of Hyrule. However, that doesn't excuse the calc being fundamentally wrong in regards to scaling a fraction of the sea as being the area of the Sea of California. To use a more extreme example, that's like scaling the entire size if the Atlantic Ocean into Chesapeake Bay. Doing that would GREATLY inflate the size of the U.S., just like how this calc greatly inflated Hyrule's size
"What of the argument that Majora is stronger than the Triforce Pieces in practice? Errmm... The Ocarina of Time Legend of Zelda needed the help of the Ocarina of Time to defeat Ganondorf, the Link from A Link Between Worlds needed Ravio's Bracelet to defeat Yuga, and Links in general need certain items to beat the antagonist of any given game. Even if Link "needed" The Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora, that doesn't automatically mean that without it he suddenly decreases dramatically in power. I find the assertion particularly suspect given how it's pointed out elsewhere that it is not necessary to defeat it."
Those examples aren't similar at all. True Link needed those items for his adventures, but Link specifically needed the FDM for the increase of power it provided, because otherwise Majora would stomp him. As it has been repeated ad nauseam, there is nothing wrong with assuming the full Triforce is indeed very, very powerful and more potent than any other object in the games. But Majora curbstomping an experienced Young Link wielding the ToC means that we can't assume the pieces are as powerful as the whole
"When did Spaceman bring up what the Fierce Deity Mask was made of, exactly? Also, could you please refrain from writing in big, bold, angry letters at people?"
He mentioned the fact that Majora's Mask was used for incantations by the ancient tribe, which is irrelevant to the discussion
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Well, if I have understood correctly, it seems like somebody knowledgeable enough to explain all of the relevant facts should ask the calculation group members to scale Hyrule's size, so we can get an estimation for Faron's power, which we can then scale Link from?
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Thanks ZZ. I woke up and was honestly a little disgusted at how off rails this had gotten, dipping into fandom Game Theory levels of fan theorys. Didn't have a chance to tell people stay on topic since I'm at work.The great ZZ said:
@Antvasima: This sounds about right. I'd assume Metabro should be the person to ask him, or I could if he can't get around to it. I was going to edit pics of the two maps to show comparison between them, but I'm awful at editing, lol. Will give anotherr attempt tonight.
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ShadMorgen said:
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Good grief...as soon as the Faron and Hyrule size calc gets debunked, things go BACKWARDS.
The creators of the game themselves are elaborating on how important/powerful so-and-so is ( when compared to another certain so-and-so that they also created. If the creators of two things say that one is greater than another, then that much stands as fact, as part of the game's lore.
Are you familiar with the term "Author's Intent"? This is ignored in VS battles.
Metabro addressed all the Hyrule stuff, I don't need to say anymore.
'E'xcept that it being described as "infinite", when being so described by the creators of the series themselves?
Refer to above. Doesn't have anything on this level either.
'T'he Ocarina of Time Legend of Zelda needed the help of the Ocarina of Time to defeat Ganondorf, the Link from A Link Between Worlds needed Ravio's Bracelet to defeat Yuga, and Links in general need certain items to beat the antagonist of any given game. Even if Link "needed" The Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora, that doesn't automatically mean that without it he suddenly decreases dramatically in power. I find the assertion particularly suspect given how it's pointed out elsewhere that it is not necessary to defeat it.
Neither the Ocarina of Time, 'nor Ravio's Bracelet provide any sort of stat boost. The Ocarina was just used for Link to access the Master Sword, and Ravio's Bracelet just let him survive being turned into a painting, and use that to keep up with Yuga, since this was his whole thing. If you played the games you should know this.
Nothing in your link contradicts that he canonically used it. Him not "necessarily" needing it, is actually an amazing example of "Gameplay and Story Segregation". Something that is of great importance when it comes to VS, if you aren't familiar with this term, I suggest reading up on it.
I'f I'm not mistaken, this is your sca a's posted earlier that proves this? I fail to see how a statement that he "transformed into the Fierce Deity and eradicated the threat" means that he stomped it, or that he had to have it in order to beat Majora.
Yup, that's mine, Confirms that he canonically used it. Why did he need it? Because Majora bodied him in the very start of the game, while in his weakest state. It's a logical assumption. He went through no noticable power ups throughout the game, and the ones that were, were the transformation masks. FDM was used, and to assume it wasn't needed is honestly just flat out ignoring all evidence presented.
'W'hen did Spaceman bring up what the Fierce Deity Mask was made of, exactly? Also, could you please refrain from writing in big, bold, angry letters at people?
"The Hyrule Hystoria describes Majoras Mask, as a mask that was used for incantations." I see no reason not to use capitals and bolded lettering when I have to repeat myself constantly, to get a post across. You findiing it "angry" isn't a valid reason, please do not try to read into such a small thing so hard.
The rest of your links are just direct links to massive pages, from an awful wikia that doesn't use references or quotes. Try "Zeldawiki" and direct link me these quotes. I'm not slowly scrawling through these huge pages for points that honestly make no difference whatsoever.
The creators of the game themselves are elaborating on how important/powerful so-and-so is ( when compared to another certain so-and-so that they also created. If the creators of two things say that one is greater than another, then that much stands as fact, as part of the game's lore.
Are you familiar with the term "Author's Intent"? This is ignored in VS battles.
Metabro addressed all the Hyrule stuff, I don't need to say anymore.
'E'xcept that it being described as "infinite", when being so described by the creators of the series themselves?
Refer to above. Doesn't have anything on this level either.
'T'he Ocarina of Time Legend of Zelda needed the help of the Ocarina of Time to defeat Ganondorf, the Link from A Link Between Worlds needed Ravio's Bracelet to defeat Yuga, and Links in general need certain items to beat the antagonist of any given game. Even if Link "needed" The Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora, that doesn't automatically mean that without it he suddenly decreases dramatically in power. I find the assertion particularly suspect given how it's pointed out elsewhere that it is not necessary to defeat it.
Neither the Ocarina of Time, 'nor Ravio's Bracelet provide any sort of stat boost. The Ocarina was just used for Link to access the Master Sword, and Ravio's Bracelet just let him survive being turned into a painting, and use that to keep up with Yuga, since this was his whole thing. If you played the games you should know this.
Nothing in your link contradicts that he canonically used it. Him not "necessarily" needing it, is actually an amazing example of "Gameplay and Story Segregation". Something that is of great importance when it comes to VS, if you aren't familiar with this term, I suggest reading up on it.
I'f I'm not mistaken, this is your sca a's posted earlier that proves this? I fail to see how a statement that he "transformed into the Fierce Deity and eradicated the threat" means that he stomped it, or that he had to have it in order to beat Majora.
Yup, that's mine, Confirms that he canonically used it. Why did he need it? Because Majora bodied him in the very start of the game, while in his weakest state. It's a logical assumption. He went through no noticable power ups throughout the game, and the ones that were, were the transformation masks. FDM was used, and to assume it wasn't needed is honestly just flat out ignoring all evidence presented.
'W'hen did Spaceman bring up what the Fierce Deity Mask was made of, exactly? Also, could you please refrain from writing in big, bold, angry letters at people?
"The Hyrule Hystoria describes Majoras Mask, as a mask that was used for incantations." I see no reason not to use capitals and bolded lettering when I have to repeat myself constantly, to get a post across. You findiing it "angry" isn't a valid reason, please do not try to read into such a small thing so hard.
The rest of your links are just direct links to massive pages, from an awful wikia that doesn't use references or quotes. Try "Zeldawiki" and direct link me these quotes. I'm not slowly scrawling through these huge pages for points that honestly make no difference whatsoever.
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"Source? I thought it was ambiguous canon"
Which is still non-canon. It's never been confirmed as canon, I don't need a source to say that, it's the other way around. Show me a source saying it's canon. It's like the other LoZ manga, except it isn't actually based on a game.
Whether or not FDM stomped Majora or not is irrelevant. It was used and killed him. "Eradicate" heavily implies a stomp, but whether or not it was doesn't matter unless you're trying to wank it. Majora caused a multi continental blast, FDM beat him. End of.
Which is still non-canon. It's never been confirmed as canon, I don't need a source to say that, it's the other way around. Show me a source saying it's canon. It's like the other LoZ manga, except it isn't actually based on a game.
Whether or not FDM stomped Majora or not is irrelevant. It was used and killed him. "Eradicate" heavily implies a stomp, but whether or not it was doesn't matter unless you're trying to wank it. Majora caused a multi continental blast, FDM beat him. End of.
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Really now, ALL of this was dealt with already, and beinging it all up is just attempting to drag out the thread. Like Antvasima said, Faron calc is all that was left to discuss, and as Metabro showed us, only lead to more accurate results. All that is left is for the Faron calc to be reevaluated.
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Except for the fact that it's in the Hyrule Historia...ShadMorgen said:
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None of it was "dealt with", you just decided that for yourself.
--"Are you familiar with the term "Author's Intent"? This is ignored in VS battles."
Um... no? Not always, and most certainly not now. Authorial intent is overlooked when it results in a lower result than what feats and scaling and such match up to, otherwise a large number of people: particularly from RPGs: wouldn't even get past Tier 8, as they weren't intended to be so immensely superhuman. Author statements: by the creator of a series, about two things they created? Yeah, they sort of matter more than what you, me, or any individual thinks in regards to their own intellectual creation.
Say you created two characters. One planet-busts, and you say unironically that the other is stronger. Does some other person asking you to give you feats of the other one large planet-busting automatically make you wrong? Of course not, you are the creator of both characters and decide their traits, power level and importance in the overall structure of the Mythos included. Not only is assuming otherwise saying that the lore is wrong about itself, it's also cherry-picking what you will and won't count out of the Hyrule Historia, and since you've been lurking for some time you should know by now what cherry-picking means.
--"Those examples aren't similar at all. True Link needed those items for his adventures, but Link specifically needed the FDM for the increase of power it provided, because otherwise Majora would stomp him."
Prove that? With that statement? I've not seen it in this thread yet.
--"As it has been repeated ad nauseam, there is nothing wrong with assuming the full Triforce is indeed very, very powerful and more potent than any other object in the games. But Majora curbstomping an experienced Young Link wielding the ToC means that we can't assume the pieces are as powerful as the whole"
When did he curbstomp him, even? He turned him into a Deku Scrub, that's more a display of hax than anything.
In fact, the fact that he was able to do that rather points to The Triforce of Courage not having been there at all, as it's been established that one of the Triforce of Courage's main powers is to protect someone from evil/dark magics and such, which did not happen here. That would be quite in keeping with The Triforce of Courage: indeed, the Triforce as a whole: not playing a role in the story, eh? So in effect, Skull Kid out-haxed a defenseless or nigh-defenseless Hylian child.
In other words, no, it's really actually not different.
--"He mentioned the fact that Majora's Mask was used for incantations by the ancient tribe, which is irrelevant to the discussion"
That also has nothing to do with what the Firece Deity Mask is made of...
--"Refer to above. Doesn't have anything on this level either."
You... completely missed the point. The creators of a series saying something is infinite doesn't make it infinite, as per No Limits Fallacy, the creators of a series pointing out that something is great and massive compared to something else is not.
I read the statements page and have done this a great many times before, nothing about my stance is contradicted here no matter how many times you may claim it is. The author saying the Light Force is "infinite" is perfectly valid within the context of the mythos and in comparison to something below it. Statements have been used time and time again on this wiki: again, if you're a long-time lurker you've likely noticed by now.
--"Neither the Ocarina of Time, 'nor Ravio's Bracelet provide any sort of stat boost. The Ocarina was just used for Link to access the Master Sword, and Ravio's Bracelet just let him survive being turned into a painting, and use that to keep up with Yuga, since this was his whole thing. If you played the games you should know this.
Nothing in your link contradicts that he canonically used it. Him not "necessarily" needing it, is actually an amazing example of "Gameplay and Story Segregation". Something that is of great importance when it comes to VS, if you aren't familiar with this term, I suggest reading up on it."
I did play the games, and I do know what Gameplay and Story Segregation is, as I've had to explain it to other people before. Please don't try to imply I don't know what I'm talking about, I wouldn't be having this discussion if I didn't.
--"Yup, that's mine, Confirms that he canonically used it. Why did he need it? Because Majora bodied him in the very start of the game, while in his weakest state. It's a logical assumption. He went through no noticable power ups throughout the game, and the ones that were, were the transformation masks. FDM was used, and to assume it wasn't needed is honestly just flat out ignoring all evidence presented."
He didn't "body him", as pointed out already he just transformed him and ran away, and even had he it would've been at the very beginning of the game at which point the kid's nigh-featless to begin with. If it's suddenly okay for you to use a "logical assumption" based on something that isn't factual, yet using statements from authors portraying one thing as > another is not, then quite frankly your standards do not comply with this wikis.
No noticable power-ups? Many characters in fiction as a whole don't obtain massive flashy power-ups suddenly to get the better of their opponents, they just do what they do and that's that as far as feats go. Requiring an in-verse power up for any increasingly high-up feats is, again, not in compliance with this wikis standards.
--"The Hyrule Hystoria describes Majoras Mask, as a mask that was used for incantations."
...that's not the Fierce Deity Mask at all. That has nothing to do with what its made of.
--"The rest of your links are just direct links to massive pages, from an awful wikia that doesn't use references or quotes. Try "Zeldawiki" and direct link me these quotes. I'm not slowly scrawling through these huge pages for points that honestly make no difference whatsoever."
...wow. An awful wikia, composed of people who go out of their way to look these things up and try their best to accurately record them on the internet? Like, I dunno, us? Or any other wiki on this great big internet, for that matter? Which prompts you to then ignore any points brought up?
But sure, I'll go through with your request: it says quite nearly the exact same thing on the topic on this Zelda Wiki you'd prefer we use, too.
Also, regarding the complete Triforce, umm...
No one's really disproven that it doesn't provide passive power, as pointed out by SeiryuShin earlier (the whole "passively supplied energy to an entire world to keep it from dying" thing), they just sort of pointed out that one power was a passive ability generated by a single piece of the Triforce. None of the individual pieces do that, so that much isn't explained. And before anyone says that no one can hold onto the complete Triforce without making a wish with it,
"One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triofrce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. [...] In a long running battle, the leaders of the thieves fought his way past his followers in lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood-stained hands. [...] Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The wise men and the Knights Of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde. [...] However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land." ~A Link to the Past manual, pg. 5-6
"The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was Ganondorf the evil thief. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World..." ~One of the Seven Maidens, also a Link to the Past
There's also an instance in which the King of Hyrule wielded the whole thing on his own for quite some time, IIRC. Here's it's page from the same Wiki as before, from which those quotes were cited (see citations.)
For the record, I'm not arguing the planet flip-thingamajig or whatever: I could care less how accurate it is or is not, it's mere inclusion, regardless, is causing everyone more headache and stress than a feat from a non- and/or partially-canon game is worth. Not arguing the map calc either, could use some reevaluation. Just pointing out that there's a reason that pretty much the entire OBD, full of highly experienced debaters (some of whom I know find Zelda wanked often) all universally accept this, last I checked.
--"Are you familiar with the term "Author's Intent"? This is ignored in VS battles."
Um... no? Not always, and most certainly not now. Authorial intent is overlooked when it results in a lower result than what feats and scaling and such match up to, otherwise a large number of people: particularly from RPGs: wouldn't even get past Tier 8, as they weren't intended to be so immensely superhuman. Author statements: by the creator of a series, about two things they created? Yeah, they sort of matter more than what you, me, or any individual thinks in regards to their own intellectual creation.
Say you created two characters. One planet-busts, and you say unironically that the other is stronger. Does some other person asking you to give you feats of the other one large planet-busting automatically make you wrong? Of course not, you are the creator of both characters and decide their traits, power level and importance in the overall structure of the Mythos included. Not only is assuming otherwise saying that the lore is wrong about itself, it's also cherry-picking what you will and won't count out of the Hyrule Historia, and since you've been lurking for some time you should know by now what cherry-picking means.
--"Those examples aren't similar at all. True Link needed those items for his adventures, but Link specifically needed the FDM for the increase of power it provided, because otherwise Majora would stomp him."
Prove that? With that statement? I've not seen it in this thread yet.
--"As it has been repeated ad nauseam, there is nothing wrong with assuming the full Triforce is indeed very, very powerful and more potent than any other object in the games. But Majora curbstomping an experienced Young Link wielding the ToC means that we can't assume the pieces are as powerful as the whole"
When did he curbstomp him, even? He turned him into a Deku Scrub, that's more a display of hax than anything.
In fact, the fact that he was able to do that rather points to The Triforce of Courage not having been there at all, as it's been established that one of the Triforce of Courage's main powers is to protect someone from evil/dark magics and such, which did not happen here. That would be quite in keeping with The Triforce of Courage: indeed, the Triforce as a whole: not playing a role in the story, eh? So in effect, Skull Kid out-haxed a defenseless or nigh-defenseless Hylian child.
In other words, no, it's really actually not different.
--"He mentioned the fact that Majora's Mask was used for incantations by the ancient tribe, which is irrelevant to the discussion"
That also has nothing to do with what the Firece Deity Mask is made of...
--"Refer to above. Doesn't have anything on this level either."
You... completely missed the point. The creators of a series saying something is infinite doesn't make it infinite, as per No Limits Fallacy, the creators of a series pointing out that something is great and massive compared to something else is not.
I read the statements page and have done this a great many times before, nothing about my stance is contradicted here no matter how many times you may claim it is. The author saying the Light Force is "infinite" is perfectly valid within the context of the mythos and in comparison to something below it. Statements have been used time and time again on this wiki: again, if you're a long-time lurker you've likely noticed by now.
--"Neither the Ocarina of Time, 'nor Ravio's Bracelet provide any sort of stat boost. The Ocarina was just used for Link to access the Master Sword, and Ravio's Bracelet just let him survive being turned into a painting, and use that to keep up with Yuga, since this was his whole thing. If you played the games you should know this.
Nothing in your link contradicts that he canonically used it. Him not "necessarily" needing it, is actually an amazing example of "Gameplay and Story Segregation". Something that is of great importance when it comes to VS, if you aren't familiar with this term, I suggest reading up on it."
I did play the games, and I do know what Gameplay and Story Segregation is, as I've had to explain it to other people before. Please don't try to imply I don't know what I'm talking about, I wouldn't be having this discussion if I didn't.
--"Yup, that's mine, Confirms that he canonically used it. Why did he need it? Because Majora bodied him in the very start of the game, while in his weakest state. It's a logical assumption. He went through no noticable power ups throughout the game, and the ones that were, were the transformation masks. FDM was used, and to assume it wasn't needed is honestly just flat out ignoring all evidence presented."
He didn't "body him", as pointed out already he just transformed him and ran away, and even had he it would've been at the very beginning of the game at which point the kid's nigh-featless to begin with. If it's suddenly okay for you to use a "logical assumption" based on something that isn't factual, yet using statements from authors portraying one thing as > another is not, then quite frankly your standards do not comply with this wikis.
No noticable power-ups? Many characters in fiction as a whole don't obtain massive flashy power-ups suddenly to get the better of their opponents, they just do what they do and that's that as far as feats go. Requiring an in-verse power up for any increasingly high-up feats is, again, not in compliance with this wikis standards.
--"The Hyrule Hystoria describes Majoras Mask, as a mask that was used for incantations."
...that's not the Fierce Deity Mask at all. That has nothing to do with what its made of.
--"The rest of your links are just direct links to massive pages, from an awful wikia that doesn't use references or quotes. Try "Zeldawiki" and direct link me these quotes. I'm not slowly scrawling through these huge pages for points that honestly make no difference whatsoever."
...wow. An awful wikia, composed of people who go out of their way to look these things up and try their best to accurately record them on the internet? Like, I dunno, us? Or any other wiki on this great big internet, for that matter? Which prompts you to then ignore any points brought up?
But sure, I'll go through with your request: it says quite nearly the exact same thing on the topic on this Zelda Wiki you'd prefer we use, too.
Also, regarding the complete Triforce, umm...
No one's really disproven that it doesn't provide passive power, as pointed out by SeiryuShin earlier (the whole "passively supplied energy to an entire world to keep it from dying" thing), they just sort of pointed out that one power was a passive ability generated by a single piece of the Triforce. None of the individual pieces do that, so that much isn't explained. And before anyone says that no one can hold onto the complete Triforce without making a wish with it,
"One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triofrce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. [...] In a long running battle, the leaders of the thieves fought his way past his followers in lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood-stained hands. [...] Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The wise men and the Knights Of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde. [...] However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land." ~A Link to the Past manual, pg. 5-6
"The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was Ganondorf the evil thief. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World..." ~One of the Seven Maidens, also a Link to the Past
There's also an instance in which the King of Hyrule wielded the whole thing on his own for quite some time, IIRC. Here's it's page from the same Wiki as before, from which those quotes were cited (see citations.)
For the record, I'm not arguing the planet flip-thingamajig or whatever: I could care less how accurate it is or is not, it's mere inclusion, regardless, is causing everyone more headache and stress than a feat from a non- and/or partially-canon game is worth. Not arguing the map calc either, could use some reevaluation. Just pointing out that there's a reason that pretty much the entire OBD, full of highly experienced debaters (some of whom I know find Zelda wanked often) all universally accept this, last I checked.
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Really now, ALL of this was dealt with already, and beinging it all up is just attempting to drag out the thread.
You don't really get to decide when a thread is "done", obviously people are still bringing up legitimate points. The point is to continue debating until one side concedes. If threads could just arbitrarily end because someone felt they were right then no downgrade/upgrade thread would last more than 50 messages.
You don't really get to decide when a thread is "done", obviously people are still bringing up legitimate points. The point is to continue debating until one side concedes. If threads could just arbitrarily end because someone felt they were right then no downgrade/upgrade thread would last more than 50 messages.
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@ThePerpetual
Hmm. Given your elaborate reply, I am much more uncertain regarding which way to go. But if the OBD staff agrees with you, I suppose that it might be safer not to change the statistics much.
Anyway, what, if anything, would you suggest to change?
Hmm. Given your elaborate reply, I am much more uncertain regarding which way to go. But if the OBD staff agrees with you, I suppose that it might be safer not to change the statistics much.
Anyway, what, if anything, would you suggest to change?
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Hey Ant. I'm pretty sure this was already adressed, but what about the Misery Mire calc. I read it over, and it seems that the whole Hyrule=continent thing was accepted at OBD using the same thing that is being used to say Hyrule=/=continent. Also, that would be used for scaling too potentially.
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It's under ALTTP Link's profile. It's what gives him country level.
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Well, for starters, probably shouldn't count the Planet Flip thing from Hyrule Warriors. Again, regardless of whether or not it's actually accurate or not, the feat is of questionable canonicity to begin with, could arguably be an outlier, and as I've seen since it's implementation has really only caused great upset. It's not like anyone's, say, using it in a debate or anything.
Finding a size for Hyrule is tricky, since we don't really know what exactly it's boundaries are. It's also vague regarding just how much of the original continent it occupies, or if it occupies the whole thing or not. It is worth noting that it's pretty much constantly referred to as a kingdom, with a thriving people and all that good stuff, so I can't imagine it's too terribly small.
Link, Ganondorf, and all of them are fine at Multi-Continent.
The Full Triforce as far as I've been able to tell passively provides power to its wielder, just as it provides power to the realm. Not really sure why it doesn't scale to Durability, seeing as basically every other instance of power imparted to anyone in the series by a divine source has been able to, though I guess one could argue that the Triforce is too fundamentally different in nature to follow that general rule of the series? That's the most logical argument for that I can think of at the moment. I do think it's been pointed out that the "+" suffix is unnecessary though, as sustaining a single Earth-sized planet is rather on the low-end of actual Planet level.
Finding a size for Hyrule is tricky, since we don't really know what exactly it's boundaries are. It's also vague regarding just how much of the original continent it occupies, or if it occupies the whole thing or not. It is worth noting that it's pretty much constantly referred to as a kingdom, with a thriving people and all that good stuff, so I can't imagine it's too terribly small.
Link, Ganondorf, and all of them are fine at Multi-Continent.
The Full Triforce as far as I've been able to tell passively provides power to its wielder, just as it provides power to the realm. Not really sure why it doesn't scale to Durability, seeing as basically every other instance of power imparted to anyone in the series by a divine source has been able to, though I guess one could argue that the Triforce is too fundamentally different in nature to follow that general rule of the series? That's the most logical argument for that I can think of at the moment. I do think it's been pointed out that the "+" suffix is unnecessary though, as sustaining a single Earth-sized planet is rather on the low-end of actual Planet level.
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....what? Did you literally just suggest that the profiles not be changed and completely shift sides because the OBD agrees with them? You DO realize that quite a few people who've come onto here to argue against this downgrade have been OBD members, and both ShadMorgan and Metabro have answered against every argument they've had?Antvasima said:
Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? It's like saying that because some random OBD member called Saitama omnipotent then automatically it should be accepted. That's not forming your own opinion based on facts, especially since most of the recent arguments for these past few days have been nothing but reiterations of the same arguments from the past thread and yet they STILL remained patient for as long as they could and had to keep going through the same points.
But somehow, Perpetual saying that the OBD accepts it has changed your mind completely?
I also can't help but laugh at how quick you all seem to be to try and get the thread closed while ShadMorgan and Metabro aren't even here.
This is biased as all hell, and honestly, I expect better.
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Look, I am just not very informed about the issue, and have a hard time constantly splitting my attention between all of the matters going on at the wiki at the same time, combined with all of the issues that I have described on my user page.
I thought that what ThePerpetual said seemed to make sense, but then I thought what Shad and Metabro said seemed to make sense too. I have a hard time making decisions if both sides seem to make sense, but I will obviously listen to what everybody have to say.
I thought that what ThePerpetual said seemed to make sense, but then I thought what Shad and Metabro said seemed to make sense too. I have a hard time making decisions if both sides seem to make sense, but I will obviously listen to what everybody have to say.
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@Homestuck He "shifted sides" (slightly, not sure if you bothered reading that part) because I bothered explaining why what we have is right, the fact that dozens of people; most of whom are more experienced debaters than anyone here; is simply an emphasis on that point. Answering an argument, too, is not even remotely similar to being right: you just provided an answer.
"Ridiculous?" What, that the creators of a series are right about their creations in relation to one another? That's nothing like saying Saitama should be omnipotent based on what some other guy says, if all you're going to do is invoke Strawman Fallacy to try to villainize us then why are you here?
I've not made any reiterations except those that just sort of got ignored, and some of it wasn't "disproven" from the get-go. Sorry I couldn't participate in the thread much from the get-go: has it perhaps occurred to you that real life interferes with and takes priority over my activity on this site?
"Close the thread?" ...did you even bother reading? Not even once did anyone suggest such a thing. He asked me what I would recommend, and I answered. No one closed anything, nor implied that they wanted to: if anything, Ant implied the exact opposite by pointing out his uncertainty. This isn't even invoking a fallacy, and that point you're just making stuff up.
Biased for... listening to my argument...? Wow. Sure, okay.
"Ridiculous?" What, that the creators of a series are right about their creations in relation to one another? That's nothing like saying Saitama should be omnipotent based on what some other guy says, if all you're going to do is invoke Strawman Fallacy to try to villainize us then why are you here?
I've not made any reiterations except those that just sort of got ignored, and some of it wasn't "disproven" from the get-go. Sorry I couldn't participate in the thread much from the get-go: has it perhaps occurred to you that real life interferes with and takes priority over my activity on this site?
"Close the thread?" ...did you even bother reading? Not even once did anyone suggest such a thing. He asked me what I would recommend, and I answered. No one closed anything, nor implied that they wanted to: if anything, Ant implied the exact opposite by pointing out his uncertainty. This isn't even invoking a fallacy, and that point you're just making stuff up.
Biased for... listening to my argument...? Wow. Sure, okay.
You know, it's kind of funny how everyone here seems to openly accept what the OBD said, when OBD philosophy is against things such as statements and Author Intent, yet most people bring them up here as arguments.
Link and Ganon are not continental, they are island level, for the reasons discussed multiple times in length in this thread. They do not scale to Majora just because they have the Triforce peices, especially considering Link himself is killed by the explosion whenever the moon drops, and, as Shad and Meta brought up multiple times, was no match for him at the beginning of the game.
Any argument about "Lawl it's just a tiki mask" is irrelavent, or else we can just say Gurren Laggan is barely wall level because it's just a drill, or that the strongest incarnations of Hulk are only city level because he got his powers from a nuke.
And we're still waiting for an update on the Faron calc, which is still highly contestable.
We are all just repeating ourselves at this point, we have argued against these notions many, many times.
Meta, Shad, Homestuck and I strongly beleive in island level Link and Ganondorf (Zelda too I suppose, but that's being generous) and continent level Feirce Deity Link and Majora, and will not be satisfied until they are each listed at these levels because we strongy beleive this is accurately where they stand. Placing them any higher relies on speculation about who they scale to or taking things out of context and overinflating them.
We want this speculation and overinflation to stop. Not because we have some sort of personal bias against Zelda, but because we're tired of all the "special treatment" Zelda gets in VS. We just want a little more objectivity and Zelda to be treated with the same scrutinization as other verses.
Let me just say this. If you rely too much on "This guy said so" and don't know much about the topic that's being argued, then you have no place to argue them, mod or no.
Especially against someone who has taken their information directly from canon sources, rather than wikis and such, much less joke calcs and outdated OBD pages.
If you can't come up with your own arguments, you shouldn't debate this. Period.
Because chances are it's already been contested in this thread. I recommend going back and reading up, to save the time and energy.
Link and Ganon are not continental, they are island level, for the reasons discussed multiple times in length in this thread. They do not scale to Majora just because they have the Triforce peices, especially considering Link himself is killed by the explosion whenever the moon drops, and, as Shad and Meta brought up multiple times, was no match for him at the beginning of the game.
Any argument about "Lawl it's just a tiki mask" is irrelavent, or else we can just say Gurren Laggan is barely wall level because it's just a drill, or that the strongest incarnations of Hulk are only city level because he got his powers from a nuke.
And we're still waiting for an update on the Faron calc, which is still highly contestable.
We are all just repeating ourselves at this point, we have argued against these notions many, many times.
Meta, Shad, Homestuck and I strongly beleive in island level Link and Ganondorf (Zelda too I suppose, but that's being generous) and continent level Feirce Deity Link and Majora, and will not be satisfied until they are each listed at these levels because we strongy beleive this is accurately where they stand. Placing them any higher relies on speculation about who they scale to or taking things out of context and overinflating them.
We want this speculation and overinflation to stop. Not because we have some sort of personal bias against Zelda, but because we're tired of all the "special treatment" Zelda gets in VS. We just want a little more objectivity and Zelda to be treated with the same scrutinization as other verses.
Let me just say this. If you rely too much on "This guy said so" and don't know much about the topic that's being argued, then you have no place to argue them, mod or no.
Especially against someone who has taken their information directly from canon sources, rather than wikis and such, much less joke calcs and outdated OBD pages.
If you can't come up with your own arguments, you shouldn't debate this. Period.
Because chances are it's already been contested in this thread. I recommend going back and reading up, to save the time and energy.
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I tire of this pointing of fingers and useless arguments. It gets us nowhere.
Logically the staff members don't have the time to read several hundred comments and they cannot be blamed.
Logically, the main points covered in previous threads should have been restated in a brief paragraph in this one, so things like this shouldn't occur.
Logically the staff members don't have the time to read several hundred comments and they cannot be blamed.
Logically, the main points covered in previous threads should have been restated in a brief paragraph in this one, so things like this shouldn't occur.
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I will type up a post of the points now.
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@Perpetual
On the author's intent and Majora scaling part
I don't think anyone is arguing the Triforce isn't the most powerful artifact in Zelda. When made whole the feats speak for themselves. The individual pieces might bestow a sort of ability to each weilder too, but I believe the context of the story in MM tells us enough that the individual pieces are nothing compared to the completed Triforce
Yes, Perp, Link did in fact possess the ToC at the time of MM. The fact that it didn't protect him from Majora's hax is not enough evidence to say he didn't. That whole protection stuff essentially amounts to fan theory never stated in any game anyway
Whether the mask was used for incantations or just a Halloween decoration is irrelevant. The fact remains that it overpowered a Triforce piece holder, meaning the pieces shouldn't scale to Majora
On the author's intent and Majora scaling part
I don't think anyone is arguing the Triforce isn't the most powerful artifact in Zelda. When made whole the feats speak for themselves. The individual pieces might bestow a sort of ability to each weilder too, but I believe the context of the story in MM tells us enough that the individual pieces are nothing compared to the completed Triforce
Yes, Perp, Link did in fact possess the ToC at the time of MM. The fact that it didn't protect him from Majora's hax is not enough evidence to say he didn't. That whole protection stuff essentially amounts to fan theory never stated in any game anyway
Whether the mask was used for incantations or just a Halloween decoration is irrelevant. The fact remains that it overpowered a Triforce piece holder, meaning the pieces shouldn't scale to Majora
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