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Legend of Zelda downgrades. Part 2.

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Honestly, I don't really have a problem with the Faron calc. Aside from Skyloft, which it seems nothing is scaled from, all other areas of the map seem to be relatively in scale. I don't know who Faron scales to, though. Haven't played SS in a long time.

Something that does bother me though is why Demise and canon Composite Link are listed as Planet level+. As far as I know, being capable of destroying an earth-sized planet is relatively low Planet level.
 
@Azathoth: Point. Well it kind of depends on what Shad thinks. Though i don't think it'll matter since he prefers to have Link as Island level at the most but who knows.

His reasons are good enough for me at the moment. Though given that i'm having a harder time to decide things, something that pops up next after this may or may not change my decision/opinion.
 
ShadMorgen said:
Just gonnna adress a few things quickly. (Been busy lately so haven't had much time to check the thread)
Scaling Demise to Ganon, which is planet off a bunk theory is just pure folly that has been debunked. Aside from that, why would Demose scale to a wish, when he himself sought the Triforce?

Metabro has explained why Faron is derpy, so I don't need to say more. However. The calc itself yielded continent level iirc, so why are you saying it puts Link at multi continental? That's just wank breh.

Thanks to everyone who has checked the thread and given their input by the way.
Click to expand...
  • A bunk theory ehh.. The Triforce is capable of an atleast Planet-wide reality warp. Ganon was in possecion of the complete Triforce. Hence Ganon is empowerd by an "omnipotent" atleast Planet warping power.
  • Sigh... Metabro has not explained why Faron is derpy..
To address @Metabro

  • The distance between the realms is absolutely irrelevant to the calculation
  • Lol
  • A games actual size and "intended" size are in no way related. Take Skyrim for example. The actual size of the game is about 16 square miles. Clearly the map and lore shows Skyrim is intended to be the size of a country, not a small city. It's the same with all Zelda games. So we need to use context clues to figure out the "intended" size. Which is exactly what the calculation did, if you bothered to read it.
Back to @ShadMorge

  • Faron, Eldin, and Lanayru were utterly unable to stop or defeat Demise. On the other hand, the Triforce is capable of one-shotting Demise. So yes, the ToC, ToW and ToP should be each significantly stronger than Faron. Furthermore, the Faron calculation is highly low-end.
  • Lastly, the Triforce is stronger than the Light Force which is described as an infinite power in the Hyrule Historia. Majora who was defeated by the memories of the people of Termina is frankly not even comparable to the Triforce. Furthermore FD Link vs Majora was implied to be a stomp in Links favor, in the Hyrule Historia.
There is actually quite a bit of evidence for Universe level Ganon, Link, & Vaati. Which i found while arguing this. I plan on collecting it and making a thread in a couple weeks.

 
"The distance between the realms is absolutely irrelevant to the calculation"

It's relevent if we're suspected to take this map seriously at all. It isn't even completely filled; how can we expect it to be an accurate depiction of the map's area?, especially when there is a more accurate, grid-based map in game?

"Lol"

Being snooty and condescending isn't helping your case, buddy

"A games actual size and "intended" size are in no way related. Take Skyrim for example. The actual size of the game is about 16 square miles. Clearly the map and lore shows Skyrim is intended to be the size of a country, not a small city. It's the same with all Zelda games. So we need to use context clues to figure out the "intended" size. Which is exactly what the calculation did, if you bothered to read it."

But that's the thing, isn't it? Skyrim's in game lore (backed by multiple sources throughout the Elder Scrolls franchise) along with much more detailed maps (again with multiple examples throughout the franchise) all point to it's size being larger

Basically, the evidence for Hyrule being so large are:

a) that the Hyrule Historia claimed Hyrule sits on a continent

b) this notion that large galleons like the Sandship are only meant to sail across large seas, therefore the Sand Sea depicted on this faulty MUST be at least the size of the Gulf of California

Using the former logic, I could claim Texas is the size of a continent because it too "sits on a continent"

The latter is complete assumption. Galleons only need a draft of at least 20 feet or so to sail, a depth many large lakes IRL can easily provide. I mean, just [look] at how shallow this "sea" is. Even if it was the real deal, the map (being as incomplete as it is) only depicts part of this sea. How does it make sense to attribute this tiny sliver of sand as being the full size of this "sea," even if it's only assumed to be as large as the Sea of California?
 
I'd rather wait for more people to decide on the Faron calc. So far it looks as though almost every other point has been discussed to completion (planet flipping, Majora scaling, Triforce potency, etc.).
 
So, if I understand correctly , the main remaining question is whether or not we should scale from Faron?
 
That is what some people are arguing, yes. I'm arguing the Faron calc isn't really accurate in the first place, which Shad seems to agree with me while Spaceman and Azathoth don't seem to have a problem with it
 
Antvasima said:
So, if I understand correctly , the main remaining question is whether or not we should scale from Faron?
Click to expand...
Yes, but even then, there are concerns about the legitimacy of the Faron calc, due to it relying on map scaling
 
most of what unclespaceman says seems reasonable, though i am not knowledgeable enough about the verse to say so concluesively.
 
I know you only joined the former thread about halfway down the thread, but you could have at least TRIED to read it, instead of repeatedly bringing up points pretty much all of us have agreed as bunk.

"A bunk theory ehh.. The Triforce is capable of an atleast Planet-wide reality warp. Ganon was in possecion of the complete Triforce. Hence Ganon is empowerd by an "omnipotent" atleast Planet warping power."

"Omnipotent" means less than nothing here, we've been over this, MULTIPLE times. Full Triforce means a single wish. It's not an amp or a stat bost. You touch it and it grants a wish. In NO way does this make him standard planet level, and in NO way does this make Demise planet level. Please stop repeating this.

"Lastly, the Triforce is stronger than the Light Force which is described as an infinite power in the Hyrule Historia. Majora who was defeated by the memories of the people of Termina is frankly not even comparable to the Triforce. Furthermore FD Link vs Majora was implied to be a stomp in Links favor, in the Hyrule Historia."

See, all you're doing here is stating hyperbole over and over, in the hope it sticks as evidence. It being described as "infinite" means nothing. What the FDM was made of means nothing. Yes it was a stomp for FDM against Majora. We know this. What the FDM is made of means NOTHING, and all you're doing is trying to make it sound less impressive, which isn't working. I can do it too. "There is no way Kirby can planet bust! He's just a small pink blob!" See how ridiculous this looks?

"There is actually quite a bit of evidence for Universe level Ganon, Link, & Vaati. Which i found while arguing this. I plan on collecting it and making a thread in a couple weeks."

Good luck. In the hopes of saving you some time, we already went over in the previous thread, the Triforce is only a symbol of the Golden Goddesses's power, and in no way scales to them. And no, Lorule events don't make them universal either, that was a full Triforce wish, and we don't even know how big there was. Hope this saved you a bit of time.


At this point all we can do is debate the Faron calc. Metabro has provided some excellent points, and I am inclined to agree with him.
 
So, should we allow ShadMorgen to start revising the Zelda pages, or wait a while longer?
 
A little longer for Faron clarification. Not gonna lie, these downgrades are gonna make me a little sad. It's one of five verses that I actively support through thick and thin, the others being Mario, Pokemon, Kirby, and Yu Yu Hakusho. Oh well. C'est la vie.
 
I'd wait for Chaos to input his thoughts again because he likely doesn't know about this and I'm too lazy and tired to read through this thread right now
 
Well, I also like the Zelda games a lot, especially Ocarina of Time, but we cannot keep the statistics if they seem to be very inaccurate.
 
I just want to day that LoZ games are one of my favs too, that's why I'd rather have them at their correct levels, as opposed to heavily wanked.
 
Perhaps since ChaosTheory is an active and respected NF calc member and does have a wikia profile, someone could ask him to weigh in on the validity of the Faron calc?
 
...Do you guys not have your own calc team? To be perfectly honest, I must say I find it a LITTLE unprofessional how people seem to keep trying to bring ChaosTheory123 in to this again, when he seemed to have lost interest. I understand he is a good calcer(like I said, I've used his stuff myself before), but he IS OBD. Different sites, different rules. He's not even the person who did the calc! Why would you not have your own calc team take a look at it, instead opting to try and get someone off site?

I'm not trying to take a jab at anyone, just giving my opinion.
 
ShadMorgen said:
...Do you guys not have your own calc team? To be perfectly honest, I must say I find it a LITTLE unprofessional how people seem to keep trying to bring ChaosTheory123 in to this again, when he seemed to have lost interest. I understand he is a good calcer(like I said, I've used his stuff myself before), but he IS OBD. Different sites, different rules. He's not even the person who did the calc! Why would you not have your own calc team take a look at it, instead opting to try and get someone off site?
I'm not trying to take a jab at anyone, just giving my opinion.
Click to expand...
We have a calc team, and they are all intelligent individuals who I trust greatly when it comes to this sort of thing.. There's a few reasons I mentioned Chaos.

1. He's a Zelda fan, and thus is familiar with the series.

2. He did not disagree with the calc when it was made. Since he is both an OBD calcer and a Zelda fan, he could probably shed some light on why he thought it was fine and if it should be accepted.

3. I do not want him to verify the result of the calc. I could ask any calc member here to do that. I want his opinion on this particular topic due to it being pretty much the last thing we're discussing and pretty damn important in terms of overall scaling.
 
I will ask him.
 
@Antvasima

So all the Planet Level ratings are fine. As for scaling from Majora...

  • The Hyrule Hystoria describes the Triforce as an "omnipotent" power, created by the Goddesses who made the Zelda multi-verse.
Clearly any 3 pieces of an "omnipotent" power created by Goddesses are stronger than a mask used for incantations. For some reason @ShadMorge is opposed to using logical power-scaling.

Imo, scaling from Majora is fine, onto Faron...

  • The body of water in Lanayru is a sea "You got the Ancient Sea Chart! This old map details the area as it was long ago, before the sea succumbed to the desert sand.".
  • The smallest sea in the world is the Gulf of California, the Faron calculation uses the Gulf of California for scaling making the calc highly low-end.
@ShadMorge and @Metabro seemed to not understand how the calculation determined the area.
 
Just as an FYI I'm gonna restate my point that just because Majora could overpower the ToC does not somehow mean that Majora is over every piece of the Triforce individually.
 
UncleSpaceman said:
@Antvasima* The Skyward Sword manga, in the Hyrule Hystoria stated that Demise was going to raze the surface world with the fires of Destruction. Which makes the statement that he can destroy the world not hyperbole.
Click to expand...


Raze the surface=/= Planet level. It's closer to continent level at best.


It's all statements statements statements with you people. Do we have any examples of them actually doing the things they claim? Ntm "Sunder the earth" is a reference to how it will act as a beacon. It doesn't make sense for someone to say it's a Holy weapon that will save the people, yet will destroy the planet.


Note how the word "earth" is in lower case. I can rend the earth with a shovel. Does that make me planet level?

So all the Planet Level ratings are fine. As for scaling from Majora...


What does that have to do with anything?

  • The Hyrule Hystoria describes the Triforce as an "omnipotent" power, created by the Goddesses who made the Zelda multi-verse.

You seem to be taking the term "omnipotent" at face value. They're not at the same level as The One Above All or the Abrahamic God just because they have creation powers, that would be ridiculous. And it doesn't say anything about them creating a multiverse. I'm pretty sure a "multiverse" is never even mentioned in canon.

Clearly any 3 pieces of an "omnipotent" power created by Goddesses are stronger than a mask used for incantations. For some reason @ShadMorge is opposed to using logical power-scaling.


I really wish people would stop using this reasoning. The Hulk is powered by a gamma bomb, yet he can hold planets together. Superman is powered by the sun yet is potentially galaxy level or higher. Guts is a normal human yet gains super stregth and hypersonic speed via normal training. NTM I wouldn't discount incantations, especially considering some in fiction can do this: https://youtu.be/bXfXFl8ywds?t=1589

And in the context of the Zelda universe, the Happy Mask Salesman even explains to Link that Majora's Mask bestowed great and wicked power and was causing mass destruction when in the hands of the tribe during the flashback: https://youtu.be/HQdVrQofPis

Imo, scaling from Majora is fine, onto Faron...

  • The body of water in Lanayru is a sea "You got the Ancient Sea Chart! This old map details the area as it was long ago, before the sea succumbed to the desert sand.".
  • The smallest sea in the world is the Gulf of California, the Faron calculation uses the Gulf of California for scaling making the calc highly low-end.

Don't see how this is applicable to anyone's power. It seems pretty clear this happened over a large period of time.
 
Please avoid using long quotes, much less the format right above. It is much harder to read than replies standing on their own.
 
Antvasima said:
Please avoid using long quotes, much less the format right above. It is much harder to read than replies standing on their own.
Click to expand...
Sorry about that, I'm not used to this. I'll see if I can fix it.


EDIT: Aaaaand fix'd. I hope that's easier for you to read.
 
Still not okay with Triforce users scaling to Majora. Like...at all. Even if the Triforce pieces seem like they should be >>>Majora, the very beginning of Majora's Mask shows this isn't the case. You can't even make the argument of "Link was unprepared!", because even endgame Link was confirmed to have needed the Fierce Deity mask to defeat Majora, and he had tons of equipment along with essentially as much prep time as he needed.

As for scaling to Faron, as I've already said, I don't have a problem with it, but that's just me.
 
Thanks, but next time, please use regular text, and do not quote so much.
 
@UncleSpaceman: Wexter already said most of what I was gonna say, so this will be brief.

1. SS prequel mange is 100% non-canon, using feats from that to justify main game hyperbole ain't gonna work, and as Wexter pointed out, there are no planet level feats in it anyway. I like how you used those image links out of context, would you like me to take pictures of my own HH to link here, so people can see what actually happened?

2. What Majora's Mask is made from is irrelevant. You don't seem to be capable of understanding this. Using hyperbole is STILL. NOT. PROOF. Stop repeating this, it's getting extremely annoying.

3. Snark will get you absolutely no where. What is logical about this? Your argument is more or less "it should scale because I want it to". I'm HIGHLY suspecting you of bias. What is logical about your speculatory theoretical ideas? Multi-contintal blast is what Majora did. Island level is the highest Ganon did. How does he scale? They never fought, met, had tea together. Link + ToC > Ganondorf + ToP. Majora >>> Link + ToC. Please read this a few times, I'm getting tired of repeating myself just because you are refusing to accept this.

4. Literally every point Metabro brought up stands, pretending they aren't there or valid doesn't refute them. Wexter addressed the additional points you brought up.
 
LordXcano said:
Just as an FYI I'm gonna restate my point that just because Majora could overpower the ToC does not somehow mean that Majora is over every piece of the Triforce individually.
Click to expand...
Except that Ganondorf + ToP > Zelda with the ToW, and Link + ToC > Ganondorf with ToP. Or are we now going to go BACKWARDS on those points, and suddenly go saying that the Triforce pieces are NOT equal? Up to you.
 
One question I have is, how would Downfall Ganon scale, as he actually beat and probably killed adult ToC Link, as opposed to Majora incapacitating child ToC Link.
 
@UncleSpaceman

1) Clearly you never read the manga, or you're being dishonest by not providing the full context. Demise is nothing more than a statement with no reason to take literally. An Expression. And they were just describing how Hylia used the sword to create and raise Skyloft

2) As Shad pointed out, what the mask was used for is completely irrelevant

3) Now onto Faron...

[This] is the calc the entire feat (amoung many other Zelda feats) are completely dependent upon. To summarize for those who might be confused, the assumption is that the sliver of sand in Lanaryu makes up the entirety of the Sand Sea Link sails across in SS. Scaling the area of that section of sand to the smallest sea IRL, the Sea of California, the author then works backwards from the Square Law to eventually find the diameter of Hyrule, which became the basis for nearly all major Zelda feats outside of Majora's. However, there is a very crucial flaw with this calc...

In [this] video (20:53), you see the completed map of the Lanayru Sand Sea as it was before it changed into a desert. Note how the sea looks NOTHING like how it's presented in the map found in the calc. That's because the calc's map, to which the entire area of the Sea of California was attributed, depicts only a mere FRACTION of the full sea. Because over 90% of the real sea map was not shown, Link MUST have sailed a distance that extends beyond the borders of the calc's map, and as a result we must not accept that the little chunk of sand in the calc's map represents the actual dimensions of the sea

In short, you simply CAN NOT say that the map in the calc accurately depicts the Sand Sea. While it isn't unreasonable to say that the full map of the sea has an area equal to the Sea of California as a low end, the fact remains that this calc, by misrepresenting a fraction of the sea as its full size, GREATLY OVERESTIMATED HYRULE'S SIZE. Therefore, this calc must be discarded and by extension, the calcs for Faron, Levias, Skipper, the Ether Medallion, and every other Zelda calc that relied on it
 
Metabro said:
snip
Click to expand...
A noticable chunk of the sea resembles what is shown on the map, though there is a large portion of it that is cut off. What's shown on the map definitely isn't the whole sea, but it certainly seems to be more than a small sliver. Instead of throwing the calc away entirely, it could likely be redone by adding the information from the ocean map and matching up the portion shown on the world map. Obviously the result would be significantly lower, but it would actually give us something to go off of and scale people to, which is probably a better idea than throwing all the information out entirely.
 
A noticable chunk of the sea resembles what is shown on the map, though there is a large portion of it that is cut off. What's shown on the map definitely isn't the whole sea, but it certainly seems to be more than a small sliver. Instead of throwing the calc away entirely, it could likely be redone by adding the information from the ocean map and matching up the portion shown on the world map. Obviously the result would be significantly lower, but it would actually give us something to go off of and scale people to, which is probably a better idea than throwing all the information out entirely.

Perhaps some parts of the calc can be salvaged. If you look at the sea map in the video, you can actually make out the icon for the harbor on the right hand side. Someone more creative than I with calcs can maybe come up with a way to combine the two maps and recalc it. However, when you compare the area around the harbor in the sea chart to the harbor in the calc's map, you'll see just how small of a portion that sliver of sand makes up the real sea. Just eyeballing it tells me that that area would be less than even 10% of what it was in the calc. To say it would be a significant downgrade is an understatement. This really seems like a drop in multiple tiers of power
 
Should we scale from Malladus, since according to his profile, is High 6-A and doesn't scale from Ganon or Majora? Then again, I didn't play his game and I'm just referring to his profile.
 
Here is a link to the old Sand Sea map, and hereis Skyward Sword's map. The port is what you should go by for size scaling I believe. The difference is incredible, I can't believe this was overlooked.

@Cal: I don't remember a thing in Spirit Tracks that was remotely at that level. It was honestly one of the less impressive games, and that profile has no links or anything. I guess wait for someone to say what the "feat" was.

I think we can all agree that the Faron calc is completely debunked now.
 
The real cal howard said:
Also, how would Vaati fit into this, as Light Force = Triforce in power according to profiles?
Click to expand...
No. We have been over this. Light Force is only said to be = Triforce because it's described as 'infinite'. We all know that's hyperbole.
 
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