Legend of Zelda downgrades. Part 2.

[ShadMorgen]

Alright, one last time. No more constantly repeating myself over and over and over.

1. Composite Link to be changed(also applies to any other version of Link/characters this applies to) to island level at base. This is due to Ganondorf destroying Greatfish Isle in Wind Waker, and Link defeated him. Fallback feats would be, Volvagia's death, and Onox's storm. Link defeated both of these characters. City at bare MINIMUM. Island is as high as it realistically gets, and I am completely comfortable at placing him at this tier.

2. Next tier/form to be noted is Fierce Deity Link, who was used to defeat Majora, who TK'd the moon yielding a multi-continental blast. People don't seem to yet understand this. By no means whatsoever do Ganondorf and base Link scale to this. No wielder of a single Triforce piece has come close to this level of power. Not once. Ganondorf destroying Greatfish Isle, as linked above is the highest level feat a Triforce piece wielder has done. What Majora or the Fierce Deity Mask are made for is irrelevant. What you theorise/would like the individual parts of the Triforce to scale to is irrelevant. Ganondorf never fought Majora, not once, never even met him. Given Kid Link was made a fool of at the start, while he still had the ToC, it's obvious the FDM was used out of necessity. Whether or not it's a stomp is irrelevant, he beat Majora while in Fierce Deity form, and that's that. It's clear cut.

3. Next "tier" if you wanna call it that(specify it's solely single use), would be the full Triforce which is a single planetary reality warping wish. As we know, the Triforce individually is what gets Link to Island level and matching Ganondorf. Which is as high as the ToC and the ToP go. ToW is it's own mess. When the three pieces are together, they resonate, and combine to summon they full Triforce. Now that I think about it? Not once do I remember seeing anyone hold onto the full Triforce for a while. Either inside them as usually or whatever. Ganon might have "had it" in ALttP, but it wasn't contained in him, he was basically guarding it. Note how he specifies that he has yet to make his wish. The Triforce wasn't on him, it was in it's usually resting place, The Sacred Realm. As we know, the Sacred Realm was transformed into the Dark World once Ganon entered. However, this wasn't because of a wish. It was because The Sacred Realm changes to suit whoever enters it. It's just the way the Realm works. As seen in the Wind Waker clip I linked, when the full Triforce is summoned, it comes down and you need to touch it and make a wish. You can be beaten to it, as King Daphnes did to Ganondorf. It then splits up and leaves to return to The Sacred Realm.

4. Everyone is in agreement that the "planet flip" of HW infamy is bunk.

5. Faron calc has be debunked, and that, along with every other calc that uses the absurdly inflated Hyrule size calc need to be reasessed.

Now if we could debate using facts, instead of constant speculation and theories, that'd be GREATLY appreciated. If you're going to try linking a quote from a character, at least be respectful about it and link to a timestamped video, screenshot or an actual link to it, as opposed to a massive page and saying what more or less comes down to "oh it's there somewhere". Saves EVERYONE time.

Can we please drop the repeated use of hyperbole over and over as if it's actually evidence, when everything we need is the feats right in front of us?

 

[Metabro]

Also, Link in MM wasn't inexperienced at all. He went through an entire adventure just before ending up in Termina, much of which required his younger form to fight and beat dungeons that only he could go through

 

[Metabro]

'5. Faron calc has be debunked, and that, along with every other calc that uses the absurdly inflated Hyrule size calc need to be reasessed.

Well said overall. If anyone needed further clarification as to why the feat no longer stands, I detailed it in post #73. In short, [this] calc greatly misrepresented Hyrule's size, and because the following calcs relied on this scaling they are also in doubt:

a) [Faron flooding the woods], as previously mentioned

b) [Levias controlling the Thunderhead]

c) [Scrapper's speed]

d) [The Ether Medallion dispersing the clouds over the Misery Mire]

Until the size of Hyrule is recalced to fit the full map of the Sand Sea, I believe all of these calcs should be considered unviable and outdated for any future debate

 

[LordXcano]

Damn just when I thought this wasn't going to go through.

1. That's just what you want so I don't really have to address this.

2. Again, the Triforce has far better accolades than the Mask. It may not have the feats per se but it has the intent behind it. I know, "infinite" and "omnipotent" are obvious hyperbole, but they still mean that those things are the strongest things within their setting. If I wrote a book and had a character one-shot the Sun, and then I said a different character's power was "infinite" then that other character would scale to the Sun-buster. The ToC thing is irrelevant as Ganondorf should logically wield more destructive power than the ToC.

3. "It is said that a long ago, when Hyrule was one country, a great ruler maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce." Note the word "maintained". This obviously wasn't a "keep Hyrule peaceful" wish, because otherwise Ganondorf wouldn't have become a threat. The King was using the passive power of the Triforce to keep Hyrule secured. Clearly one can do more than a wish with it.

4. It'd still be on Composite Link's profile though, which is the only profile it's on.

5. It's hardly "absurdly inflated", even if you cut down the results by 100 it'd knock them down by maybe 1 tier provided it was just cutting it. I've already told Chaos about this anyway.

 

[WexterTheRocketDinosaur]

@Lordcxcano

You really don't seem to be getting this. Yes, we know that the Triforce has reality warping properties, we are saying the potency of the Triforce itself=/= the individual power of their weilders.

"accolades" and "intent" are completely irrelevent. The fact of the matter is Link, a Triforce weilder, is easily defeated by Majora without the FD Mask, and the other Triforce weilders haven't so much as met Majora's half-cousin ,twice removed at Tingle's Halloween party, so they don't get scaling. Period.

Saying Ganondorf "should" be stronger just because his Triforce peice has "Power" in the name is blatant speculation, and igoring the fact that he can be defeated by Link (in games where the Master Sword is unobtainable, mind you) who gets bodied by Majora.

Claiming something "doesn't need feats" is blatantly ignoring all fundamental and conventional rules of VS debating.

But it's Zelda, so that's makes it OK right?

 

[LordXcano]

I do get it, and I provided evidence it provides passive power.

Accolades and intent are relevant, see above with the example of Bayonetta and hell even Asura if there was more to back it up.

You are completely ignoring the fact that in every game where Link encounters Ganondorf before you have end of game equipment he's solo'd by Ganon with ease. Link obviously cannot overpower or match Ganondorf with just the ToC, he needs magical artifacts to boost him up, while Ganon needs just his innate power.

 

[Metabro]

"The ToC thing is irrelevant as Ganondorf should logically wield more destructive power than the ToC."

It's completely relevant. Despite all its supposed buffs, the ToC could not protect Link from Majora's onslaught. Link was transformed into a Deku by him and if Link failed to stop Majora, he would have been killed by the moon drop too. In their fight Link saw it necessary to use the FDM to defeat Majora. I believe that enough should imply that even Link knew his own power wasn't enough to face him

What you're saying now is that the ToP provides some sort of boost in power that would let Ganondorf at least rival Majora. This is simply untrue. Link would have been annihilated if that were the case because, as I've already described, Link would have been killed by Majora without the FDM, so Ganondorf would be no different

"Clearly one can do more than a wish with it."

Based on one of the most vague statements in a thread full of vague statements. For all we know the King could have been using it as a deterrent, not because of anything the Triforce itself was doing. That's why we analyze the Triforce from what we actually see it do

"It'd still be on Composite Link's profile though, which is the only profile it's on."

You don't understand. It has nothing to do with canon. It's about the calc being wrong, which Shad detailed at length

"It's hardly "absurdly inflated", even if you cut down the results by 100 it'd knock them down by maybe 1 tier provided it was just cutting it. I've already told Chaos about this anyway."

The area used in the Hyrule size calc doesn't account for even 10% of the true size of the Sand Sea. You can even see how they compare by looking at the similar landmarks, most notable the harbor. That results in a huge downgrade

 

[HomestuckLover1]

@LordXcano

1. Nothing to address here

2. Palpatine said he had "UNLIMITED POWER" and he's one of the smartest beings in the SW verse, so obviously that means he scales to the Death Star right?

You can't powerscale based on hyperbolic descriptions alone. If there were a statement however directly comparing the individual triforce pieces to Majora's Mask, I'd support multi continental Zelda all the way. However, going by what's presented, the exact opposite is what I'm seeing. If Link were REALLY multi continent without Majora's Mask, he would be able to tank the explosion brought on by Majora after 3 days, but literally even for the sake of the plot, we know he can't. Also, even if the ToP gave more DC than the ToC, is it really to the point where Ganon is multiple tiers higher? If so, WHERE'S THE PROOF? I already explained why the hyperbolic statements aren't proof.

3. OR, and since theories are being thrown around as to what the full triforce can do, Ganon was afraid of them using that wish on him or using the wish and him losing any chance of obtaining the triforce for his own, and THAT is what it meant by "maintain peace" Again tho, this is just a theory, as what you're saying is a theory, merely supported by EXTREMELY VAGUE descriptions

4. Ok, and the other stuff is continually getting debunked as well, so he's likely getting even lower than not planet level.

5. Well, then we'll just see after the appropriate measurements are found to get a less inflated result.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

I'll just say that any information coming from the encyclopedia on zelda.com should probably be thrown out as aonuma had no input on the definitions and its infamous in the Zelda community for being either inaccurate or have definitions That are purely fabricated NOA staff fanfiction.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Shad that his examples seem like far more tangible measurements, but would like to see if ThePerpetual is okay with letting him perform the changes to the Zelda profiles.

 

[ThePerpetual]

--"If you can't come up with your own arguments, you shouldn't debate this. Period."

What do you think I spent two hours typing up that response doing? The four-odd hours I spent on this one plus fact-checking myself? You arguing against these notions does not make you correct, nor does the fact that four of you agree on something. Thousands, probably millions of people think Link is little more than an ordinary human. As has already been pointed out, consensus =/= fact, that applies to you too. The OBD argues against Authorial Intent according to you? Then how come they bothered explaining why it is right? This isn't "special treatment" either, trying to imply or state such is flat-out insulting everyone who worked on putting it there. This isn't even Authorial Intent, it's Word of God via the Hyrule Historia.

--"I don't think anyone is arguing the Triforce isn't the most powerful artifact in Zelda. When made whole the feats speak for themselves. The individual pieces might bestow a sort of ability to each weilder too, but I believe the context of the story in MM tells us enough that the individual pieces are nothing compared to the completed Triforce"

...are we just ignoring ignoring the actual points made now? The Triforce is already noted to have no real role in the story to begin with anyhow, it's context tells us nothing about the Triforce Pieces in relation to the whole.

I'm talking about the Light Force. This is the force that is more powerful than the Majora's Mask that I refer to, not the full Triforce, and the Light Force is stored within Zelda herself. Surely we know by now that Ganondorf is above Vaati and Zelda? He fought on even footing with Link, after all, and Link just killed Vaati a short while ago, and on top of that overpowered Zelda's magic . Not to mention, all of the times Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda?

--"No wielder of a single Triforce piece has come close to this level of power. Not once. Ganondorf destroying Greatfish Isle, as linked above is the highest level feat a Triforce piece wielder has done."

False, as I'll detail here in a second, but that doesn't even matter due to power-scaling that you keep denying exists.

--"What Majora or the Fierce Deity Mask are made for is irrelevant. What you theorise/would like the individual parts of the Triforce to scale to is irrelevant. Ganondorf never fought Majora, not once, never even met him."

The only thing irrelevant here is the fact that Ganon never fought Majora. Why is that? The Hyrule Historia says Light Force > Mask, and Zelda: The Light Force: is > Ganondorf. That's all there is to it. There's no theorization being done at all, you're just dismissing what I say as such.

--"Given Kid Link was made a fool of at the start, while he still had the ToC, it's obvious the FDM was used out of necessity. Whether or not it's a stomp is irrelevant, he beat Majora while in Fierce Deity form, and that's that. It's clear cut."

No? He was "made a fool of" in that he was transformed into a Deku Scrub, that's all that happened there, and on top of that using low-end feats: from the beginning of the game, when the character was at their weakest, what's more: is not at all a logical practice. There are high-end feats and low-end feats, we don't ignore the high-ends when the low-ends don't match up. This isn't eve a feat of overpowering someone, if that were to matter somehow, so no.

Obvious he used it out of necessity? Why, because he transformed a Child Link into a Deku Scrub (Who you're just assuming is at full power apparently due to having the Triforce of Courage, otherwise the fact that he already has the Triforce of Courage wouldn't matter), that's your sole reasoning there? That's just, I don't know, speculation, or what you think it should be, as you've so excellently put it.

Anyhow, Regarding Ganon and the Triforce? Here's the PDF for the A Link To The Past manual.

"Although it was an inanimate object, the Triforce had the power to bestow three titles which gave the person who received them great powers: "The Forger of Strength", "The Keeper of Knowledge," and "The Juror of Courage."

So no, The Triforce does not just give someone a wish. This is made further evident after Ganondorf wished to rule the world, yet after his wish he still retained all of the powers it gave him. Remember, Ganondorf in that game had no Triforce of Power, no in-built ability to do anything: the power he wielded against you is all directly granted by the entirety of the Triforce itself.

"Note how he specifies that he has yet to make his wish."

Way to take a line way out of context. Ganon intends on fulfilling that wish to rule both of the worlds by conquering the other with his armies, not through making a wish via the Triforce. Remember how he was sealed away in the Sacred Realm to begin with at the start of the game due to his armies pouring into Hyrule and attacking from there? Yeah.

On top of that, if the very same video already linked, the Essence of the Triforce explains:

"Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the Golden Land to the Dark World."

Ganondorf had already made the wish. If the Essence of the Triforce used to make said wish itself isn't a reliable source then nothing is. Hell, it's even already split apart, not whole as it would be if it hadn't been used to make a wish yet.


--"Can we please drop the repeated use of hyperbole over and over as if it's actually evidence, when everything we need is the feats right in front of us?"


No. You ignoring the creators of the game does not, and never will make you right. You are calling something a hyperbole when it is not being used in that context simply because it's convenient to you argument, which ultimately amounts to nothing. "Everything we need?" Everything you need, to have the characters where you want them.


--""accolades" and "intent" are completely irrelevent. The fact of the matter is Link, a Triforce weilder, is easily defeated by Majora without the FD Mask,"

They're certainly more relevant than your arbitrary assumption that using a hax power on Link somehow equates to nothing else could ever possibly be above it, particularly when the owners of the intellectual property say otherwise. Ganondorf easily defeated Link when he was young in Ocarina of Time, and he needed the Master Sword in order to defeat him. This isn't any different: assuming, of course, that he actually did "need "said Fierce Deity Mask, which hasn't been proven to be anything more than speculation based on the fact that he used it at all.

--"What you're saying now is that the ToP provides some sort of boost in power that would let Ganondorf at least rival Majora. This is simply untrue. Link would have been annihilated if that were the case because, as I've already described, Link would have been killed by Majora without the FDM, so Ganondorf would be no different"

...still haven't proven that, for starters, and it's also multiple different Links and incarnations of Ganondorf you're treating as one entity. Not sure if you've noticed, but Ganondorf usually would have most certainly annihlated most Links early on in their career: again, the Ocarina of Time example above. The Master Sword is usually required for him, which is entirely absent in Majora's Mask.

--"Palpatine said he had "UNLIMITED POWER" and he's one of the smartest beings in the SW verse, so obviously that means he scales to the Death Star right?"

An excellent example of false equivalency. The Hyrule Historia is unironic Word of God, and infinite is not being argued to proclaim infinite strength objectively but rather that it is greater than something else: Palpatine is notably overconfident, a character within the verse bragging about themselves, and has no such context. This argument is invalid.

--"You can't powerscale based on hyperbolic descriptions alone."

This again. We are not saying that anything is infinite, that would be hyperbole. A statement pointing out that something is above something else within the verse it created is just that. You're effectively telling the lore that it is wrong... about itself.

Here, check out the Statement page. Note how the example presented points out that, if someone is declared "invincible" within the context of the narrative or by the author (which in this instance is sort of both), it is reliable within the context it is being discussed in, and in this case this would be the overarching story Mythos. Oh, and also-

"A character CAN be upgraded by word of mouth alone." ~Bottom of Statement page

This is one of the fundamental rules upon which this wiki functions. So yes, we most certainly can powerscale based on statements. And guess what? A: The source of the statement is in fact as reliable as they come, B: nothing about Ganondorf's Attack Potency and Durability being that high contradicts the lore, and C: it has nothing to do with other settings being an entirely in-verse comparison. This makes it an objectively legitimate source to use.

--"If Link were REALLY multi continent without Majora's Mask, he would be able to tank the explosion brought on by Majora after 3 days, but literally even for the sake of the plot, we know he can't."

One of the most fallacious arguments thus far, and one invoked far too frequently abroad. Characters in fiction get damaged by things that going by our system they shouldn't get scratched by: Falling damage and mundane spikes are prevalent throughout fiction, Mario consistently dies to lava, Zack Fair was shot to death as part of the main story, etc. This basic showing of inconsistency in fiction proves nothing.

--"I'll just say that any information coming from the encyclopedia on zelda.com should probably be thrown out"

I don't recall anyone here doing so, thanks for the heads up though.

--"I agree with Shad that his examples seem like far more tangible measurements, but would like to see if ThePerpetual is okay with letting him perform the changes to the Zelda profiles."

Not everything ever needs their definition of tangble measurements, and it would be extremely hypocritical of us to not count this sort of thing given other statements we quite consistently have counted on this wiki, time and time again. On top of that, many of the premises proposed are based on logic that quite simply doesn't work, as already illustrated. I cannot support changes based on the premise that we should abandon many of the standards of the wiki to discriminate against one verse alone, particularly when so much validates their current levels and blatantly contradicts their stance.

In other words, no. I am not okay with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, now I am back to thinking that ThePerpetual makes more sense again. This is going around in circles.

 

[ShadMorgen]

"I'm talking about the Light Force. This is the force that is more powerful than the Majora's Mask that I refer to, not the full Triforce, and the Light Force is stored within Zelda herself. Surely we know by now that Ganondorf is above Vaati and Zelda? He fought on even footing with Link, after all, and Link just killed Vaati a short while ago, and on top of that overpowered Zelda's magic . Not to mention, all of the times Ganondorf kidnapped Zelda?"

The only thing that makes it more powerful a hyperbolic statement(not wanting it to not be, doesn't make it so) and you whiteknighting a theory. That's all it is Perpetual. It all speaks for itself. Overpowering a Zelda without the ToW's magic isn't impressive. Constantly capturing her when she is barely a combatant isn't impressive. So you haven't actually raised a single point as to why it's valid. Please drop this until you have actual evidence.

"False, as I'll detail here in a second, but that doesn't even matter due to power-scaling that you keep denying exists."

No evidence, so it's true, backed up by the feats I linked which were relevant, as opposed to what you think. And you didn't detail anything other than misinformation.

"The only thing irrelevant here is the fact that Ganon never fought Majora. Why is that? The Hyrule Historia says Light Force > Mask, and Zelda: The Light Force: is > Ganondorf. That's all there is to it. There's no theorization being done at all, you're just dismissing what I say as such."

No...no it doesn't Perpetual, and I find it strange how you didn't provide links to such a committed statement. I'm looking at my own Hyrule Historia right now, and all I see is that hyperbolic statement, which you so very much want to be the only piece of "evidence" to cling to. It isn't. The feats speak for themselves. So to recap, not only is it all theorisation, you're now theorising about statements in the HH, and speading misinformation. Stop.

"He was "made a fool of" in that he was transformed into a Deku Scrub, that's all that happened there, and on top of that using low-end feats: from the beginning of the game, when the character was at their weakest, what's more: is not at all a logical practice. There are high-end feats and low-end feats, we don't ignore the high-ends when the low-ends don't match up. "

Except he wasn't "at his weakest" he was fresh off the bat from his adventure in OoT and in possession of the ToC. You're not showing any of these "high-end feats", and it's obvious why. There aren't any. All you're trying to do here Perpetual, is confuse the topic further. Please stop this. The only "high-end feat" that is relevant here is that Link assumed the form of the Fierce Deity, and defeated Majora.

""Although it was an inanimate object, the Triforce had the power to bestow three titles which gave the person who received them great powers: "The Forger of Strength", "The Keeper of Knowledge," and "The Juror of Courage."

So no, The Triforce does not just give someone a wish. This is made further evident after Ganondorf wished to rule the world, yet after his wish he still retained all of the powers it gave him. Remember, Ganondorf in that game had no Triforce of Power, no in-built ability to do anything: the power he wielded against you is all directly granted by the entirety of the Triforce itself."

And exaaaaactly how do you think this gives him more power? All that is is a fluffed up variant on: "But, if that one's heart is not in balance, the Triforce will separate into three parts: Power, Wisdom and Courage. Only one part will remain for the one who touched the Triforce...the part representing the force that one most believes in." — Sheik (Ocarina of Time)" which is nothing more than fancy titles for individual part pieces. And yeah, he had no Triforce of Power, you're right! Glad my point is getting across. Because the actual Triforce wasn't on him. It's probably why he does nothing impressive in game.

""Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the Golden Land to the Dark World."

Ganondorf had already made the wish. If the Essence of the Triforce used to make said wish itself isn't a reliable source then nothing is."

And if you watch about...hrmmm, three seconds later, you'll see the Triforce say that his wish didn't come true yet. So which is it? We have two contesting things said here. Ganon says he has yet to make his wish. Triforce says his wish hasn't come through.

"...still haven't proven that, for starters, and it's also multiple different Links and incarnations of Ganondorf you're treating as one entity."

I don't even know what confusion you're trying to spin now. All they were discussing is Majora's Mask Link, which, I'm sure you know is the exact same Link from OoT.


"Well, now I am back to thinking that ThePerpetual makes more sense again. This is going around in circles."

Except he hasn't actually brought up any relevant points Ant, and is just relying on nothing but assumptions still. Ignored half my points, the ones he did were based on theories and assumptions, and the other half was essentially bickerine over other stuff on this website, which is basically irrelevant to this discussion. Nothing in my previous post has been contested one bit. Don't fall for the messy wall of text and think it's impressive, when it's mostly fluff, this is a common tactic.

All of my points still stand.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Just a quick one. There is nothing fallacious about Link getting killed by Majora's Moon dropping. He dies because he can't take it. It's an actual cutscene in the game, and shows Kid Link dying when the moon explodes. There is no wriggle room here, regardless of how very much you don't want this to be true.


I won't be around for most of the day, I hope this thread isn't going to go in circles once again.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have to constantly switch back and forth between lots of different topics in this wiki and elsewhere, so it is hard to properly keep track of more elaborate issues.

 

[ShadMorgen]

@Antvasima I completely understand. Are there any particular questions you have at this point? I'd like to resolve any confusion you still have.

 

[Antvasima]

No. I understand both of your points. I simply have a hard time selecting between them. It may be best if you ask the rest of the staff to check out this thread again.

 

[WexterTheRocketDinosaur]

@Perpetual

Woah, chill bruh. I wasn't singling you out specifically, sorry if I upset you though.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that he didn't need the mask. I'll save you the time, there are no examples of such. In every source available, (the manga, Hyrule Historia, the game's canon) Link used the mask to beat Majora.

Let me ask you this. If Link didn't need the FD Mask, why didn't he just KO Majora/Skull Kid at any given time and just be done with it? That way he could just take his time and help the people of Termina at his leisure without a time limit. No, he needed to complete a specific series of events in order to beat him, which involves summoning the giants to help him and obtaining all of the transformation masks.

You're the one making the assumption that he didn't need the FD Mask because all evidence from the Canon says otherwise.

You also can't claim that Link getting killed by the explosion is inconsistent because it's the ONLY multi-continental explosion we've seen in Zelda.

Now to address the Lightforce stuff. Dio's stand, The World, is stated to be superior to every other stand in Jojo part 3. Not because of it's destructive potential, but because it can stop time, effectively rendering those affected by it helpless. Now, do Dio and his stand scale above above universe level stands because he's the big bad recurring villain and has Manga and guidebook statements that CLEARLY state his stand is better than everyone else's? Uh, that's a negative ghost rider. (Well, Dio does get a universal form in a video game but that's besides the point)

Point being, it may not be superior in the sense that Zelda has better stats than Majora. If anything, the examples of her getting captured only prove my point, showing she's physically weaker than the other two. In fact, Ganon's Puppet Zelda should logically contain the power of the Lightforce and two Triforce weilders combined, and is defeated by Link. She's also pretty much useless in every Ganon fight unless she has Light Arrows, and she even disguises herself to escape from him at times, suggesting she's leary of engaging him directly. Don't get me wrong, I really like Zelda, I'm just listing the facts provided.

EDIT: I just read Shad's post that the statement about the Lightforce is not even existent. I'm more inclined to believe him, unless you can provide a link to said statement. In that case, by all means do so.

Yes, you could argue for all three scaling to each other, which is why I'm perfectly comfortable with having them island level, but, as we can plainly see, FD Link is the only one who scales to Majora.

So now we're back to square one.

Not much else we can argue other than semantics at this point.

 

[CaptainFalcon64]

Wait why is Young Link not being able to survive the Moon dropping on him used here?, that shouldn't be relevant at all considering video characters like Mario are seen failing to escape from a Black Hole despite being MFTL. If we are using death scenes to scale then we might as well downgrade Mario. We might was well downgrade ALL video game characters if we are going to use death scenes to scale.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Indeed some video game writers make characters stronger than they intended to, and it's not pertaining to video games alone.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Wait why is Young Link not being able to survive the Moon dropping on him used here?, that shouldn't be relevant at all considering video characters like Mario are seen failing to escape from a Black Hole despite being MFTL. If we are using death scenes to scale then we might as well downgrade Mario. We might was well downgrade ALL video game characters if we are going to use death scenes to scale.

Because of it being so very many levels above anything else he has ever taken? Multi continental blast >>>>> island level attacks from Ganondorf. The point you are making here is that Mario dies to these things, when he should logically survive them, yes? The difference here is that Link shouldn't survive it, and doesn't. If anything, it's actually a good example of gameplay and story integration.

It isn't actually inconsistent in any way at all, this isn't a case of an absurdly powerful character getting killed by a mook with a knife, it's a character getting killed by someone vastly out of their league.

 

[LordXcano]

The only thing that makes it more powerful a hyperbolic statement(not wanting it to not be, doesn't make it so) and you whiteknighting a theory. That's all it is Perpetual. It all speaks for itself. Overpowering a Zelda without the ToW's magic isn't impressive. Constantly capturing her when she is barely a combatant isn't impressive. So you haven't actually raised a single point as to why it's valid. Please drop this until you have actual evidence.

If you wanna be so technical about what is and isn't a theory then I can also say that technically everything you're saying is a theory as well because for all we know Majora and Link could both be Star level because the Gods made the Sun and Link has that power. Also, Zelda is hardly a non-combatant, she still has many powerful magics at her aid, she's just routinely overpowered.

No...no it doesn't Perpetual, and I find it strange how you didn't provide links to such a committed statement. I'm looking at my own Hyrule Historia right now, and all I see is that hyperbolic statement, which you so very much want to be the only piece of "evidence" to cling to. It isn't. The feats speak for themselves. So to recap, not only is it all theorisation, you're now theorising about statements in the HH, and speading misinformation. Stop.

See my example relating to a sun-buster vs. someone the author says is infinite.

Except he wasn't "at his weakest" he was fresh off the bat from his adventure in OoT and in possession of the ToC.

Context please. This is Young Link, who wasn't "fresh off the bat" from his adventure. He was sent back in time with practically none of his possessions and had 0 magical artifacts to protect him at the time Majora haxed him up. All he had was himself and the ToC, which we have seen does a pretty piss-poor job at defending from evil before.

And exaaaaactly how do you think this gives him more power?

Because in the quote provided it says "the Triforce had the power to bestow three titles which gave the person who received them great powers"

You also can't claim that Link getting killed by the explosion is inconsistent because it's the ONLY multi-continental explosion we've seen in Zelda

This is valid, but this is also a child Link without any of the ability-enhancing armors from Hyrule. I.E. Base Link, the equivalent to what he is at the beginning of every Zelda game (a weak nerd).

'Now to address the Lightforce stuff. Dio's stand, The World, is stated to be superior to every other stand in Jojo part 3. Not because of it's destructive potential, but because it can stop time, effectively rendering those affected by it helpless. Now, do Dio and his stand scale above above universe level stands because he's the big bad recurring villain and has Manga and guidebook statements that CLEARLY state his stand is better than everyone else's? Uh, that's a negative ghost rider. (Well, Dio does get a universal 'form in a video game but that's besides the point)

This is a self-contradicting statement. You start off with "The World is stated to be superior to every other stand in JoJo part 3" and then follow that up by saying it should also be superior to the stands in later parts.

Point being, it may not be superior in the sense that Zelda has better stats than Majora. If anything, the examples of her getting captured only prove my point, showing she's physically weaker than the other two. In fact, Ganon's Puppet Zelda should logically contain the power of the Lightforce and two Triforce weilders combined, and is defeated by Link. She's also pretty much useless in every Ganon fight unless she has Light Arrows, and she even disguises herself to escape from him at times, suggesting she's leary of engaging him directly. Don't get me wrong, I really like Zelda, I'm just listing the facts provided.

Which is exactly why I keep saying the ToP logically has more brute force power than the other Trifroce pieces yet nobody seems to remember this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just for something I was thinking about in school, feel free to debunk it, I no longer care as much as I did in the first one. No hard feelings towards anyone :

Him dying in the explosion should be considered like not using the FD Mask to beat Majora. It's optional to die and not apart of canon, just as it's optional not to recieve the mask. On a similar scale, Chara could be killed by a normal wall level enemy, despite being multiversal. Link could be killed by Gyorg, or even by a Chuchu, if you don't want me using outside examples. Normally, I wouldn't bring that up, because I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy of some sort, but the fact is, we're debating whether the FD Mask was required or not.

And he was under a time limit to save everyone else. Everyone else would've been killed in the explosion.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Link harm Majora in his diminutive deku state to retrieve the ocarina? That should count towards something.

Also, Majora hax is what made him topple Link in the beginning. It was a jinx. If the 3-B Goku was casually walking up to the 10-C Professor X, the Saiyan would likely lose due to hax.

 

[Metabro]

"Him dying in the explosion should be considered like not using the FD Mask to beat Majora. It's optional to die and not apart of canon, just as it's optional not to recieve the mask. On a similar scale, Chara could be killed by a normal wall level enemy, despite being multiversal. Link could be killed by Gyorg, or even by a Chuchu, if you don't want me using outside examples. Normally, I wouldn't bring that up, because I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy of some sort, but the fact is, we're debating whether the FD Mask was required or not. And he was under a time limit to save everyone else. Everyone else would've been killed in the explosion."

If Link fails to stop the moon drop, the shockwave would engulf him and he would have died. This isn't gameplay logic or whatever you're trying to argue for. This was from a cinematic, which showed clear as day that Link's own life was at risk too, not just the citizens

"And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Link harm Majora in his diminutive deku state to retrieve the ocarina? That should count towards something."

Deku Link shot a bubble at Skull Kid while he was staring at the moon, which caused him to drop the Ocarina. It might have temporarily stunned Skull Kid, but there's no reason to say Skull Kid has Majora's durability. Just access to his power. That's why the Mask itself fought Link alone: Skull Kid's durability wasn't up to snuff. Majora says this himself:

["Certainly. He had far too many weaknesses to use my power."]

"Also, Majora hax is what made him topple Link in the beginning. It was a jinx. If the 3-B Goku was casually walking up to the 10-C Professor X, the Saiyan would likely lose due to hax."

As we already know, Majora's TK was more than enough to wipe out Link pre-FDM with that moon drop feat

 

[The_great_ZZ]

@LordX If you wanna be so technical about what is and isn't a theory then I can also say that technically everything you're saying is a theory as well because for all we know Majora and Link could both be Star level because the Gods made the Sun and Link has that power.

1) Wasn't the Triforce stated to be the symbol of there power?

Context please. This is Young Link, who wasn't "fresh off the bat" from his adventure. He was sent back in time with practically none of his possessions and had 0 magical artifacts to protect him at the time Majora haxed him up. All he had was himself and the ToC, which we have seen does a pretty piss-poor job at defending from evil before.

2) Well Shad could have meant Link had gained his experience from his adventure.

Because in the quote provided it says "the Triforce had the power to bestow three titles which gave the person who received them great powers"

3) The quote is very vague could you give some specifies.

This is valid, but this is also a child Link without any of the ability-enhancing armors from Hyrule. I.E. Base Link, the equivalent to what he is at the beginning of every Zelda game (a weak nerd).

4) What are the cannon ability-enhancing armors then? Also MM Link had the ToC.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cinematic also shows Lavos destroying the world and the future refusing to change though. And Frisk has Multiversal AP due to barely hurting Omega Flowey, and while the disobeying souls weakened him. This isn't really different.. The bubble stunning him in his weakest form in the game to gain the ocarina back should count. If a hamster headbutted me in the back while I'm not paying attention, I'm not going to drop whatever is in my posession.

While that may or may not be true, it was brought up that Majora was "stomping" Link at the beginning of the game.

 

[ShadMorgen]

"If you wanna be so technical about what is and isn't a theory then I can also say that technically everything you're saying is a theory as well because for all we know Majora and Link could both be Star level because the Gods made the Sun and Link has that power."

...Uhhhhh. No, you can't. Because I've been backing up all my claims as I go. Was this comment meant to be a joke or something? Just came across as silly really.

"Context please. This is Young Link, who wasn't "fresh off the bat" from his adventure. He was sent back in time with practically none of his possessions and had 0 magical artifacts to protect him at the time Majora haxed him up. All he had was himself and the ToC, which we have seen does a pretty piss-poor job at defending from evil before."

Yes, he was "fresh off the bat" from his adventure. No one was saying that he had his possessions, and he had nothing to help that in OoT anyway, so again, I don't actually know what you're attempting to say here. He experienced all he went through in OoT, and he had the ToC and the Ocarina of Time, before Majora took that at least.

"Because in the quote provided it says "the Triforce had the power to bestow three titles which gave the person who received them great powers""

The three titles refer to bearers of the individual pieces. "great powers", so, the normal individual piece boosts? Or a vague, unquantifiable boost which has no feats to back it up. Know something interesting the Triforce says in the finale of ALttP? "The stronger the wish, the more powerful the Triforce's expression of that wish." Considering how Ganon couldn't even get OUT of the Sacred Realm, and had to wait to build up his strength again? It's highly likely it didn't even give him that much of a boost, due to his wish being weak.

"Him dying in the explosion should be considered like not using the FD Mask to beat Majora. It's optional to die and not apart of canon, just as it's optional not to recieve the mask. "


Except that all it shows us is the result of what happens if you don't play the Song of Time in...time(heh). I know I have spoken against doing so in the previous thread, but since everyone else is, Bayonetta's feats are a perfect comparison. Or should we assume she isn't planet level because in canon that piece of Jubileus doesn't destroy the planet? The point is, it WOULD have had the same result, and all that does is show us exactly what happened. Link didn't take it, he died. He died, and it's consistent with his power level, and is a perfectly accurate showing of what would have happened.

"but the fact is, we're debating whether the FD Mask was required or not."

And we have found it is. He canonically used it, and without it he dies to Majora's power. There is no more arguing this. "And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Link harm Majora in his diminutive deku state to retrieve the ocarina? That should count towards something."

You're talking about this, right Cal? He doesn't even seem hurt, just like he fell back in surprise. Notice how after he drops it just just floats there WATCHING Link, as if to see what he will do. Two things. 1. Skull Kid was shocked by Link being able to hit him/having a huge bubble pop in his face, fell back in surprise and dropped it. 2. Link hit SKULL KID. Not Majora. They shouldn't have the same durability.


Edit: I just noticed Metabro's post, which explains the bubble in more depth than I did, lol. Well written.

 

[WexterTheRocketDinosaur]

Lol Continent level snot bubbles. That's lolzy

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright Shad. That makes sense. Like a LOT of it, and I'm impressed. Same to Metabro. How would you address my Lavos comparison though, out of curiosity. And aren't we arguing that Majora is MultiC with the mask on skull kid though?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lol Continent level snot bubbles. That's lolzy

Well Beerus did sneeze away a star after just waking up...

And Pre-Crisis Superman's infamous solar system sneeze.

 

[Metabro]

Cinematic also shows Lavos destroying the world and the future refusing to change though. And Frisk has Multiversal AP due to barely hurting Omega Flowey, and while the disobeying souls weakened him. This isn't really different.. The bubble stunning him in his weakest form in the game to gain the ocarina back should count. If a hamster headbutted me in the back while I'm not paying attention, I'm not going to drop whatever is in my posession.

While that may or may not be true, it was brought up that Majora was "stomping" Link at the beginning of the game.

Can't speak on the Undertale stuff, but Lavos was going to destroy the world too if the heroes were defeated. It's not the same as Crono possibly losing to an Imp during gameplay. Lavos destroying the world was proven in a cinematic. That can't be debated because we see it happen for ourselves

If Link couldn't stop Majora in time, the moon would drop and Termina (along with Link) would have been wiped out. It's not the same as Link possibly losing to an Octorok during gameplay. Majora destroying Termina was proven in a cinematic. That can't be debated because we see it happen for ourselves

 

[ThePerpetual]

And my response: which I spent all day on yet again: just got deleted entirely when I posted it.

I guess I'll just wait and try again tomorrow, then.

 

[Antvasima]

I am sorry to hear that. I hate when that happens. Try writing long responses in a word processor, and then pasting them, instead. That usually tends to be safer.

 

[ShadMorgen]

@Cal: Glad to hear it. It all really does make sense if you just look at it logically, instead of relying on vague statements and theories.

@ThePerpetual: That sucks man. Hope you have something good in it at least.

There isn't actually much to discuss other than semantics and dragging this out of longer at this point.

 

[ShadMorgen]

I take it we are done here, as no one has tried to raise any more objections in over two days.

 

[ThePerpetual]

First off, you could stop calling my points irrelevant any day now, calling facts "theories" and "assumptions" as you please, and trying to tell Antvasima "Don't fall for the messy wall of text and think it's impressive, when it's mostly fluff, this is a common tactic" as if I were conspiring to decieve you. I've told you nothing but facts, regardless of how many times you try to dismiss them as theories, and since apparently it's now a bad thing for me to spend several hours of my life every single day of the week trying to argue with several people at once.

Sigh. I'm going to go over the entire thing again, explain it all.

-

1. Majora dropped the moon. Simple enough.

Oh, and do note how it has still not bee prove that Link needed this mask to defeat Majora's Mask after stopping the Moon by calling the Four Giants. The entire crux of your saying that he required this is that he used the mask at all; trying to say that he absolutely had to have this item is: wouldn't you know it?: speculation. The burden of proof is on you, the one making the positive claim that he required it.

2. Vaati is stronger than Majora. This is by virtue of wielding most of the Light Force after taking it from Zelda, a power that while described as "infinite" in a hyperbolic sense, is still considered more powerful than the other relics in the series as per Word of God pointing it out to be so vast and powerful in comparison.

"The Light Force: A source of infinite power from the heavens that holds the enormous power of the Force, which originally dwelled in all things." -Hyrule Historia, page 78

The argument in play is that this is a hyperbole when being used in a comparative context, despite it being a hyperbole only when someone tries to compare it to another outside series entirely, at which point Word of God can't be applied anyways. When compared next to other objects in the series, there isn't a reason to assume that a powerful force like this isn't above another object when this much is made evident by Word of God.

Now, why is a statement like this usable? We're going to go back to the Statements page, yet again since apparently no one has read up on how statements even work around here. Notice the Green Knight example of Indestructible? Replace this with "infinite", and go to Numbers 4 and 5, and wouldn't you know it, this is both an example of a statement being made as part of the narrative and by the author. This is the textbook definition of when a supposedly hyperbolic statement is perfectly usable within the bounds of the verse itself.

And yes, this checks off all the requirements for usability at the bottom, as well. It is from a reliable source (the authors themselves), it doesn't conflict with the story or feats (nowhere did anyone say "Oh Ganondorf can't possibly generate any effect that would yield so-and-so much power), and it's only valid within the context of it's setting, which is all that it is being applied to anyhow.

So yes, statements by the creators of the game are "valid points." I'm still failing to see what's so "vague" about something being above something else. It's not a theory. It's a statement.

3. Zelda is above Vaati, via having all of the Light Force. The assertion of her being as non-combatant is laughable, as demonstrated by:

Zelda having shot and tagged Ganondorf in both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess with the Light Arrows, meaning she can tag his speed, got punched in cutscene by a bloodlusted Ganondorf and it just KOed her for a while (Showcasing her ability to take his hits, rather than you know, explode instantly), her body took hits from Ganondorf's reflected magic when used as a puppet by Ganondorf (Also showcasing this ability), her physical strength was required to help Link pierce the jewel on Malladus's head when he was struggling on his own (Meaning her strength isn't purely magical), and restrained Ganon so that he land a deciding blow in Ocarina of Time . Hell, the entire reason Vaati petrified Zelda in the first place?

"The princess who holds the power of light... That mysterious power is said to flow in the veins of every royal lady in your family ever since that day when it was gifted to your people. If I leave you now, you'll only cause me trouble later. That will never do. To stone with you!" — Vaati

Because she could impede him later. Hardly seems a non-combatant given that she's, you know, combated people multiple times. The only thing her being leery of directly confronting Ganondorf proves is that she's below Ganondorf, which leads us to...

4. Ganondorf is stronger than Zelda, as shown when Ganondorf hit, powered through the durability of, and temporarily KOed Zelda, as well as with the fact that she's consistently unable to stop him.

Now, before anyone goes off about how Majora using hax on Link after he completed Ocarina of Time makes Majora more powerful than Link who is more powerful than Ganondorf, remember that Link defeated Ganondorf using the Master Sword and the power of the Six Sages, not the Triforce of Courage. So him having it when he got transmuted by Majora's Mask proves a whole lot of nothing as far as Link somehow "retaining" his power. It's no real wonder that Link got killed by a moon drop. Nothing about that Link, lacking the power he used to defeat Ganondorf, being killed by a moon drop contradicts what he did in other games.

As far as Ganondorf constantly seeking the Full Triforce to do "anything significant", how about the fact that everyone constantly thinks of it as being an "omnipotent" object in verse? A fairly obvious fallacy, but that doesn't change the fact that they still believe it to be such. Finally,

5. Some Links are strong enough to physically contend with Ganon, rather than having to resort to sealing him, as made evident when they, well, kill him. Some examples of this are in A Link to the Past, the Oracle games, the original Legend of Zelda (in which the Master Sword doesn't even exist), and so on.

-

Summary, in case this is somehow too fluffy: Ganondorf/Links that don't have to resort to banishing Ganondorf > Zeldas that can fight worth anything = Vaati > Majora's Mask > The vast majority of the verse.

The weakest link in this chain according to the counterargument is that the statement of Vaati > Majora's Mask cannot be used, despite the fact that this is essentially the textbook example of a usable statement. It is therefore legitimate proof, whether you like it or not, no matter how many times you tell me to "stop" and play by your rules, and thus it is fine to use.

If you have an actual piece of evidence that contradicts this: one that hasn't been refuted yet, at least: do go ahead and share it, rather than telling me I'm wrong at leaving it at that. You had one on the Song of Time thread, that was cool. You've pointed out the Faron calc map, this is also fine and will be looked at. The HW calc really shouldn't be on there just on principle of it being non-canon. This, however? You've still not disproven anything. The burden of proof lay on me to prove the claim true, I did so by working under the rules of the Wiki. Declaring that power-scaling doesn't work because another character lacks feats misses the entire point of power-scaling: to scale characters.

-

Now, to address a couple of other things.

Regarding The Full Triforce

Now, I've found a new quote where the Hyrule Historia explains:

"The Sacred Realm, once home to the Triforce, was plunged into darkness by Ganondorf's wicked heart. It could also be thought of as the Underworld counterpart to the Light World." -The Hyrule Historia, pg. 97

This makes the Dark World being automatically transformed merely by reflecting the heart of the one who holds it a lot more consistent with what actually happened in the game, and it wins out when it conflicts with the A Link To The Past Manual by virtue of being newer/more up to date. This really only affirms that the Triforce passively provides power, though:

"At last, Ganondorf found himself in possession of the Triforce of Wisdom that dwelt within Zelda, and the Triforce of Courage that dwelt in Link. His true power acheived, he transformed into the Demon King. The Seven Sages of Hyrule, led by Princess Zelda, sealed Ganon and the Triforce in the Sacred Realm as a final resort." -The Hyrule Historia, pg. 92

Here, Ganon is shown to have transformed into the Demon King simply by attaining the Triforce, not by making any wish, and it's still around when they seal both it and Ganon with it into the Sacred Realm. Care to explain why a power granted by the Triforce is being assumed to not be as powerful as anything else the Triforce does? It also doesn't explain why Hyrule, the Light Realm, was afflicted with catastrophes after Ganon wished to rule the world.

"Black clouds permanently darkened the sky, and many disasters beset Hyrule." -A Link to the Past Manual, pg. 5

So yes, Ganon had access to the Light Realm. He's typically just too proud to engage enemies who aren't worth his time, as shown in Ocarina of Time when he just sort of handwaved Link as no real threat rather than finishing him for his insolence.

--"And yeah, he had no Triforce of Power, you're right! Glad my point is getting across. Because the actual Triforce wasn't on him. It's probably why he does nothing impressive in game."

The Triforce doesn't need to be "on him." It already granted him the power he then wielded against A Link to the Past! Link later. His heart wished to rule the world, so he ruled the world he was in, as part of his ruling it made it dark and evil, that's just how Ganon likes ruling his worlds. The reason he hadn't conquered the Light World by then was because, again, he wanted to break the seal keeping him in there and flood it with his armies, that's rather a reccurring theme with Zelda villains.

Why hadn't he just held onto the Triforce and wished the seal between them to be broken? Well, I can't exactly provide you an answer that wouldn't be, again, speculation, but there's all sorts of reasons it could be the case: he could've been under the impression that be couldn't do that with it or had no desire to, which would both fall squarely into Character Induced Stupidity, or in that narrative it simply could've been too much for Ganondorf to accomplish which would be ludicrous amounts of PIS/Outlier. Regardless, the fact remains that Ganondorf didn't do that, and that's what matters.

-

Now, as for Demise:

The whole "commanding enough power to destroy the world" thing is... vague...? Not really sure about that one. I mean, if he doesn't hold that power himself, how the hell do you propose he "destroys the world," as spoken of by the Hyrule Historia? Pollute it or something? It seems rather illogical that it would be referring to burning it down or anything of the sort: really, the only argument against it as far as I've seen is that it is Hyperbole: and an island collapsing on it most certainly doesn't contradict that in any meaningful way.

It wasn't even an island killing it that destroyed it, it was a wish made with the Triforce that killed it in the form of the island (not even all that big an island, either) dropping onto it.

Which brings up some more points: in the video, you pretty clearly see Link moving the Triforce around with his mind, rather than having to touch it, meaning the whole "characters have to touch it to make a wish using it" thing is sort of just gone out the window. Additionally, closer to the end of the video , the Triforce is quite clearly still floating around, right there and ready to be used again. They explain later that it was hidden away because reliance on it's powers would bring disaster, this being what prompts Rauru to construct the Temple of Time to seal it away in the Sacred Realm.


"Rauru, the Sage of Light, constructed the Temple of Time, which contained the only existing entrance to the Sacred Realm, where the Triforce was located." -Hyrule Historia, pg. 77

All of these things are fairly in contrast with the Triforce granting a single wish and that's all.

-

In short, no, I'm really not going to budge on this one. I get that you don't agree with me, this is fine. However, I have important matters to attend to in my personal life that are going to be keeping me away from here, and really am just sort of demotivated in general after my last attempt at this just sort of failed, and if you're just going to make the same points that have quite literally been made dozens of times now, then as you said there really is nothing else to be discussed here. We will need a verdict delivered, one that I may or may not vehemently agree/disagree with, and that will be that.

 

[Antvasima]

@ThePerpetual Well, I personally think that you make sense, including that explicit author statements definitely count, and appreciate your effort, so I am currently inclined to agree with you.

However, it would probably be best to ask the rest of the wiki's admins and moderators to take another look at this thread to help render a verdict. This is the most inconclusive long-running thread since the Mario upgrades, and I need their help to provide input.

I am kept very busy myself with the current monitoring backlog, and then with adjusting various Marvel character tiers, but you can tell them that I requested their assistance.

 

[LordXcano]

I thought the Mario downgrades were the most inconclusive and long-running thread?

Either way I agree with Perpetual obviously, thanks for typing that for me and getting quotes I wouldn't have been able to find.

Also just as an FYI I'm pretty sure the Light Force is like the combined memories or essence of everyone in Hyrule while the Deity Mask is just everyone in Termina, so it should be stronger just by quantity as well as author intent.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, I've scoured practically all of Zelda lore, I'd like to think that I've covered everything and made my stance clear.

Still, we ought to give Shad what time he needs to counter if there's anything left to counter. Obviously if it's just the same points again then that'll be that, but it seems hardly fair to assume that and just end it given I was also allowed some time to research. I'm just saying I'd like it to be wrapped up soon, and to be handled civilly: I'm concerned I've sparked up all sorts of bad blood between everyone involved, and that's quite honestly the last thing I want to come out of this.

Until then, I'll notify the others and ask them to look through this for a verdict.

 

[Metabro]

Ugh I really hate this comment system sometimes. Just had my long reply to Perp deleted -_-


Retyping now I guess