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Lavos should take this for the reasons stated above.
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Lavos vs Homura
- Thread starter Yobo_Blue
- Start date
- Status
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I think that manipulating a 2-A hive mind of sort doesn't count as mindf***ing multiple 2-As.
The main thing is that they are all part of a greater consciousness (Madoka) who is 4-D, but that doesn't make the individual parts (who are magical girls) 2-A (as a consciousness) individually.
Kinda like how Madoka can't make infinite 2-A M-bodies at once
The main thing is that they are all part of a greater consciousness (Madoka) who is 4-D, but that doesn't make the individual parts (who are magical girls) 2-A (as a consciousness) individually.
Kinda like how Madoka can't make infinite 2-A M-bodies at once
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Even with the fact that they gained her cosmic awareness <They also had her memories>?
But ok, even then, while the argument of passive mind manip may be off the table, law manip and unconvential memory / power drain resistance at least warrants an inconclusive.
But ok, even then, while the argument of passive mind manip may be off the table, law manip and unconvential memory / power drain resistance at least warrants an inconclusive.
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Don't really see her putting any laws in place to stop Lavos' advances.
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Never said she would have to put a law.
Just use law based power null.
Just use law based power null.
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Guess I can drop my vote agreeing with the Lavos side based on the match appearing to be close but then infinite dupes.
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I've been meaning to ask about that, given that Homura affected the entirety of Madoka, who herself has infinite m-bodies (not at once, but through all of space-time), wouldn't the same be applied here?
She is also omnipresent through all of time and space, so she would really be fighting all of them already no?
She is also omnipresent through all of time and space, so she would really be fighting all of them already no?
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Kaltias said:
/\ Not the case for Lavos. So they're all already there in their respective timelines.
EDIT: Also this is for SD, just quoting the point that Kal already said.
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Yeah I know, that's why I pointed out through space-time, not at only one moment.
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About the consciousness part, keep in mind that every LoC magical girl has awareness of infinite other timelines (as in, past, present and future) on an infinite multiverse, and as seen in rebellion when homura mind haxed everyone but sayaka so she could tease her a bit they have their own consciousness, because if they were one and the same she would have been mindhaxed along with madoka, nagisa and every one else
To me this seems more than just mindhaxing a single 2-A consciousness
Not voting for now
To me this seems more than just mindhaxing a single 2-A consciousness
Not voting for now
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Lavos for Fate and Cal's reasons
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I dunno how much (i know it's a lot, like one of the best) but still madoka's is pretty good too
As in, she was even able to manifest before coming into existence as a concept in the old multiverse (before the whole multiversal rewriting), and the wole singularity of cause and effect thing (might be forgetting something)
As in, she was even able to manifest before coming into existence as a concept in the old multiverse (before the whole multiversal rewriting), and the wole singularity of cause and effect thing (might be forgetting something)
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Since base? Yes.
Since it landed? No.
Does it matter? Probably not.
As far as Time and Causality itself are concerned Lavos has always been in the DD ~ TD phase. Non-Existent Lucca outright states "It's a matter of cause and effect but the ruined future will manifest anyways." DBT where it resides and came to be, being non-existence, is also a Dimensional Void without time, space, no beginning and no end as well.
There are a bajillion reasons across threads and an entire blog post made for that, but long story "short"... Base Lavos was active in both base and from other time eras immediately after its defeat prior to even getting any upgrades in tier. Still in base, he transcends Time and Space and resides outside of its flow (even things that channel a fraction of its power such as the black omen work like this) and are unaffected by changes in it. At its absolute weakest as spawn as it just arrived on the planet, its presence alone distorts time enough to be creating gates across eras. Again, he was active immediately after his defeat both through his defeated self that ended up in the DBT and his past self in 12000 BC as well as an alternate that became aware of its defeat in 1999 and worked on solving that across another timeline. STILL in Base, it has alternate self summon shenanigans. All of its incarnations across timelines are "the same being yet entirely different". Way less significant characters are TP immune by default in the series (See CT cast which has way less of a paycheck in the space-time department than Lavos). Still in base, Ignored the Universal scale Cause and Effect of an entire timeline being restored that would dictate he should return to existence along with it. In base, if there were no restrictions of tiers in threads he would actually come back not long post its defeat and erasure as the DD instead of simply using base alternates as that's what happened in the verse.
Now this was all for base.
DD and TD Lavos is an entity with no beginning and no end, who gets so ridiculous that no matter how you kill it, there is an alternate for each and every timeline (of which there are infinite ones) and an alternate for each and every timeline erased from existence that ends up in the DBT (of which there are infinite ones as well).
You need to wipe it from every era, from every timeline across existence and from the entirety of the dimensional void that is the DBT, otherwise alternates will resume whatever it was doing instantly. OR the same Lavos you just defeated will just be sent to the DBT again which at this point is basically like taking a quick trip to the bakery for the thing. To get past that people use literal thousands years of prep and developed a Macguffin that was tailor made to oneshot it. Then they channeled the power of everyone across the timelines and channeled Lavos' own power against it as well because by itself the Macguffin was still not a sure fire. With that they wiped it from every single timeline along with the DBT.
And after doing that they reality warped every single timeline of the multiverse into a single plane of existence so there were 0 alternates left and 0 chances of there ever possibly being a point in time it could reappear from. Without any timelines other than the Unified one, the only absolute result is that "Lavos was wiped". And because "time was no longer dividided" - as in, there are no such things as "as many universes as there are potentialities", that means there wouldn't ever be any point or pobrability of Lavos reappearing or there being whatever "timeline" where an alternate could emerge from.
Since it landed? No.
Does it matter? Probably not.
As far as Time and Causality itself are concerned Lavos has always been in the DD ~ TD phase. Non-Existent Lucca outright states "It's a matter of cause and effect but the ruined future will manifest anyways." DBT where it resides and came to be, being non-existence, is also a Dimensional Void without time, space, no beginning and no end as well.
There are a bajillion reasons across threads and an entire blog post made for that, but long story "short"... Base Lavos was active in both base and from other time eras immediately after its defeat prior to even getting any upgrades in tier. Still in base, he transcends Time and Space and resides outside of its flow (even things that channel a fraction of its power such as the black omen work like this) and are unaffected by changes in it. At its absolute weakest as spawn as it just arrived on the planet, its presence alone distorts time enough to be creating gates across eras. Again, he was active immediately after his defeat both through his defeated self that ended up in the DBT and his past self in 12000 BC as well as an alternate that became aware of its defeat in 1999 and worked on solving that across another timeline. STILL in Base, it has alternate self summon shenanigans. All of its incarnations across timelines are "the same being yet entirely different". Way less significant characters are TP immune by default in the series (See CT cast which has way less of a paycheck in the space-time department than Lavos). Still in base, Ignored the Universal scale Cause and Effect of an entire timeline being restored that would dictate he should return to existence along with it. In base, if there were no restrictions of tiers in threads he would actually come back not long post its defeat and erasure as the DD instead of simply using base alternates as that's what happened in the verse.
Now this was all for base.
DD and TD Lavos is an entity with no beginning and no end, who gets so ridiculous that no matter how you kill it, there is an alternate for each and every timeline (of which there are infinite ones) and an alternate for each and every timeline erased from existence that ends up in the DBT (of which there are infinite ones as well).
You need to wipe it from every era, from every timeline across existence and from the entirety of the dimensional void that is the DBT, otherwise alternates will resume whatever it was doing instantly. OR the same Lavos you just defeated will just be sent to the DBT again which at this point is basically like taking a quick trip to the bakery for the thing. To get past that people use literal thousands years of prep and developed a Macguffin that was tailor made to oneshot it. Then they channeled the power of everyone across the timelines and channeled Lavos' own power against it as well because by itself the Macguffin was still not a sure fire. With that they wiped it from every single timeline along with the DBT.
And after doing that they reality warped every single timeline of the multiverse into a single plane of existence so there were 0 alternates left and 0 chances of there ever possibly being a point in time it could reappear from. Without any timelines other than the Unified one, the only absolute result is that "Lavos was wiped". And because "time was no longer dividided" - as in, there are no such things as "as many universes as there are potentialities", that means there wouldn't ever be any point or pobrability of Lavos reappearing or there being whatever "timeline" where an alternate could emerge from.
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Remember when Fate didn't have to worry about Lavos fights? What happened to that? ovo
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rofl Somehow I knew Dragon would troll me on that one.
It's that explaining the Acausality stuff got surprisingly simple after way back when I made these blog posts. Clarification is actually simple for me.
The part that would exhaust me was if I was legit questioning/debating anyone else's points. Which I'm leaving to Cal as you can see here.
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- Hugs Fate because Fate's been through a lot about the acausal stuff.
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Damn right. I will do so everytime I see you give input on a Lavos match. ovoFateAlbane said:
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@Cal *Hugs because while I'm 'k now, the flashbacks still give me nightmares.*
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As far as Time and Causality itself are concerned Lavos has always been in the DD ~ TD phase.
Just like Madoka
DBT where it resides and came to be, being non-existence, is also a Dimensional Void without time, space, no beginning and no end as well.
Just like the World of Witches
DD and TD Lavos is an entity with no beginning and no end
Just like Madoka
You need to wipe it from every era, from every timeline across existence and from the entirety of the dimensional void that is the DBT
Madoka did the same thing (for the first part) on an infinite multiverse by rewriting it and keeps her superior witch form from coming in the world of wraiths from the world of witches (which is basically the same as the DBT) via conceptual/law manip, and Homura should scale due to having comparable conceptual and law manip
Just like Madoka
DBT where it resides and came to be, being non-existence, is also a Dimensional Void without time, space, no beginning and no end as well.
Just like the World of Witches
DD and TD Lavos is an entity with no beginning and no end
Just like Madoka
You need to wipe it from every era, from every timeline across existence and from the entirety of the dimensional void that is the DBT
Madoka did the same thing (for the first part) on an infinite multiverse by rewriting it and keeps her superior witch form from coming in the world of wraiths from the world of witches (which is basically the same as the DBT) via conceptual/law manip, and Homura should scale due to having comparable conceptual and law manip
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No, Madoka did it to a concept.
Not to another 2-A.
She doesn't need to be erased from all of existence and all of non-existence either and then have the entire multiverse be changed to a single possibility so there's not the possibility of her being at all in the entire existence AND non existence as well for her to stay down.
I have 0 idea where that's coming from.
Not to another 2-A.
She doesn't need to be erased from all of existence and all of non-existence either and then have the entire multiverse be changed to a single possibility so there's not the possibility of her being at all in the entire existence AND non existence as well for her to stay down.
I have 0 idea where that's coming from.
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Anyway.
4:2 for Lavos ATM
4:2 for Lavos ATM
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Like, I'm not questioning anything else on the match, and if anyone wants to say Homura by whatever reasons, go ahead.
The only thing that doesn't fly for me at all is saying Madoka's Acausality compares to that of Lavos.
The only thing that doesn't fly for me at all is saying Madoka's Acausality compares to that of Lavos.
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How does that equal "Madoka has acausality equal to a being that ignores causality to the point where all of its infinite alternates scattered across timelines need to be erased from all of existence and non existence, all of its infinite alternates scattered across non-existent timelines must be erased as well and all of time must be unified into a single timeline, a Multiverse can't even exist lest it will come back and anything less than that will turn out inconsequential to the being as a whole"?
If she had done anything similar, Kriemhild Gretchen would never have been an actual problem in the first place.
If she had done anything similar, Kriemhild Gretchen would never have been an actual problem in the first place.
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I don't think the duplicate thing actually has that much to do with acausality (I might be wrong), seems more like a direct connection between the various self, and even then Homura's conceptual/law null might be useful for this as it works on a multiversal scale, and btw she is omnipresent across the space-time of the entire multiverse
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It has. Textbook definition of Acausality is "this being is hard to kill because on top of being unaffected by Causality, even if you manage to destroy it it may appear again from alternate timelines", etc.
Lavos takes that and puts it up to 11.
And Madoka doesn't manifestate infinite M-bodies as it was said above.
Lavos takes that and puts it up to 11.
And Madoka doesn't manifestate infinite M-bodies as it was said above.
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RKGenki said:
...There isn't one, though.
There is one for every timeline and one for every erased timeline. And whatever happens to one doesn't affect the alternates. Not stopping your vote, just clarifying this.
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In Madoka's case it's not at once from what I gather of what was discussed above. Either way, as I pointed above... My vote remains unchanged, but not stopping anyone else's either.
Since I already clarified on how the powers of the thing work, I suppose I can go back and leave whatever we get out of this for others again. Peace out.
Since I already clarified on how the powers of the thing work, I suppose I can go back and leave whatever we get out of this for others again. Peace out.
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Infinite at once is only for 3-D bodies as of now, for 4-D ones we only know she is costantly fighting UKG but no multiple bodies at once, but still the law manip encompasses all the multiverse and arguabily the old one too so that might be enough to keep all duplicates at bay
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