Lavos vs Homura

[FateAlbane]

But isn't this new stuff for Madoka?

I mean, does Homura *get* all this stuff from Madoka as well? If Homura *legit* scales to all of these Madoka's feats and gets the hax on both sides (Existence and Non-Existence) I might rethink my vote for the moment as otherwise this would be toss-up in some cosmic thug of war across everywhere and nowhere with Homuras across Existence and Non Existence vs Infinite Lavos across both as well.

 

[RKGenki]

Actually I think it should, but now that you made me notice no one brought that up in the upgrade thread

I'll have to ask there

Edit: nevermind, solved

 

[RKGenki]

The range upgrade affects Homura too, Kal said that in the comments, and her law manip already affects 2-As so that's why she isn't mentioned in the thread

 

[FateAlbane]

Thing is that range alone doesn't change much of where *I* stand. If she gets all Madoka is getting, I'll agree to stalemate, tho. I'll wait for Kaltias on this since he's on this thread already.

If he confirms all this from Madoka scales to Homura then I might say Inconclusive (the "not at once" thing still makes me feel iffy enough to wait for him before making this change).

Removing my vote for the time being, until Kal clarifies on this one.

 

[RKGenki]

Yeah, although the main point of the upgrade was to prove Madoka can affect 2-A beings which Homura already does, but still let's wait for him, he surely knows better than me

 

[RKGenki]

The range means that she can keep it in place in the DBT from the multiverse she is in

 

[RKGenki]

Going to sleep now, I'll check this tomorrow

 

[FateAlbane]

On Madoka's case she's perpetually duking it out with Kriemhild Gretchen from where she is.

If Homura got the stuff from Madoka, I presume she would be doing the same thing against DD here meaning they both get stuck in the aforementioned thug of war across everywhere and nowhere.

Range alone doesn't give her the W.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's also a matter of time before Lavos uses Homura's powers as his own (whether through that time scan or absorbing at least one Homura), and then gives her a taste of her own medicine.

 

[FateAlbane]

Time scan probs wouldn't work considering she's outside of it so that's a no no.

Though I never heard about infinite homura bodies all at once, hence why I'm waiting for Kal's word on this (Like, Kal outright stated above that Madoka herself is not getting infinite dupes all at once, so I'm stuck with somewhat conflicting info - or poor understanding on my end as I'm not up to date with Wraith arc - here in regards to where Homura stands on this).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The 7-B Homu with all that hax or Homulily aren't though, so that could work to gain her powers (not put her down though. Any form of Acausality shots that down). Alternatively, lolabsorb ovo.

But yeah, a wrench just got thrown into the match...

 

[SomebodyData]

Infinite Homura bodies isn't a thing from what I know @Fate

7-B homura shouldn't exist since everything got reset when Homura took over @Cal

 

[RKGenki]

She doesn't need infinite bodies for this, since the law alone encompasses the multiverse, and lavos doesn't resist conceptual and law manipulation, which UKG resists

 

[FateAlbane]

Eeeeh, I guess I should just remove my vote altogether and let you all decide.

• throws the towel to the thread.

Besides Homura will certainly get more upgrades later anyways, thus nullifying this match like with Bolas, so. ovo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Given that she can't destroy concepts, that won't work for long. And she can't put any law to stop Lavos.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Anyway, I keep my initial sentiment. Lavos eats her, and even if he doesn't put her down that's way, and she somehow has infinite duplicates, he can now pull a Homura on Homu.

 

[SomebodyData]

Like I said before Cal, she used law manip not to add a law, rather as an unconventional (geez whats with the unconventional abilities) power null and concept manip to rip the weakest part of Madoka out.

Again, bringing up the unconventional resistance here cal. Eating her at best will do nothing. At worst work against him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If we're talking about the Madoka screwery, that requires touch, which is suicide, and I still see absolutely nothing proving against Homura's assimilation, as it works on a higher scale against beings greater and more abstract than her. Remember how I said there was an original Dragon God? Lavos is the new Dragon God after eating him. The 7 nonexistent sentient fragments that was originally the OG Dragon God fused back together to get Lavos, not the OG Dragon God.

 

[SomebodyData]

Power Drain =/= Law Manipulation.

The OG Dragon God is more abstract than Madoka? Do tell. Considering how you seem to accept what Kal tells you, then I'm pretty sure he can tell you just how abstract Madoka is compared to even most conceptual beings.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What Law would she manipulate to mess with Lavos? Even when fighting it, she doesn't know what it is, as it's an Eldritch. Let alone where it's powers come from.

 

[SomebodyData]

Given she emoved the LoC assistants' powers by simply snapping her fingers and didn't even know why they were even there, I'm pretty sure she doesn't need to know specifics, just the being its being used on.

 

[FateAlbane]

>>> LoC assistants.

They're fodder as far as this match is concerned.

 

[SomebodyData]

Manipulating the concept has nothing to do with those who use the ability. Although technically the same can be applied for Madoka afterwards if you want to argue that.

 

[FateAlbane]

So you're basically comparing dealing with the assistants to dealing with infinite dupes of DD when each dupe could care less about whatever bad effects happen to one another individually?

And, even taking Madoka into account, that all of those same dupes would be kindly waiting while Homura does whatever to them one after another.

...Welp.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm guessing you're ignoring the part where the concepts have literally nothing to do with Lavos or the assistants?

Not to mention I already mentioned the same can be applied for Madoka...

In a snap.

...K.

 

[FateAlbane]

No, though you did ignore the part where they are so much fodder at this point I could outright throw it back at you that Lavos Omnilocks Homura as soon as the match starts with the same sort of logic despite feats no coming close to that scale.

LoC assistants is the same old case as "Madoka never wiped a 2-A so she can't wipe Bolas". Feats against characters ridiculously below the current target don't fly.

I didn't say a thing about you using Madoka to compare. That flies at this scale. Assistants, nope.

It's Infinite vs 1. I've never seen Homura haxxing Infinite M-Bodies at once myself.

So yeah. Justified welp.

 

[Schnee_One]

People please, this is meant to be a fun debate and this shit happens....

 

[FateAlbane]

Relax, Garg, I'm pretty 'k here. o/ Admittedly the Assistants part may have made me go "Eeeeh" but not much more than that.

Like, if it was just the "did so to Madoka" that would be fair play.

 

[SomebodyData]

Wow again, manipulating the concept of something does not consider the ap or dura. And like I said three times now, it happened to Madoka. I was just pointing out it has happened before with the LoC assistants. Why are you making a point of it at all????

Wow once again, she manipulated Madoka beyond just her m-body, who was enframed in all of space-time. Unless you're telling me that she only manipulated Madoka for that moment, and therefore Madoka still exists as the LoC in the future and past, then it would have affected all of them.

Heck, the very fact that Madoka exists in each timeline already puts her at infinite m-bodies. I don't know what Kal is referring to at this point.

Its quite justified, for me that is.

 

[FateAlbane]

Two words: Dimensional. Lvl. If someone manipulates the concept of some 3-D, doesn't mean same character can do so to 4-Ds. I'm asking myself why you even persist on this when you have the actually reliable point that she did it to Madoka. That's what amuses me more than anything.

...Madoka never manifested infinite bodies at once.

When everyone but one person, including people who aren't voting (and people who know the series) agree to a particular point, that should probably tell something.

 

[Schnee_One]

"Wow again"

"Wow once again"

If you're acting like this over fictional characters I'm wondering why you even bother debating.

Calm. Down.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

>Another Homura related thread went downhill.

 

[FateAlbane]

lol The sad part is that I even removed my vote and gave up on saying anything about the result itself.

The only things I'm adressing at this point are things that sound strange to me when I read them.

Will it make it better if I vote Homura FRA?

 

[SomebodyData]

You're right Gargoyle, sorry. I guess I got agitated with the "welps"

@Fate

It was supposed to be an explanation of how it works, basically.

Lemme get Kal over here since no one believes me anymore apparently.

That's called a fallacy, not sure why you're bringing it up.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

"Wow again"
"Wow once again"

If you're acting like this over fictional characters I'm wondering why you ecen bother debating.

Calm. Down.

Yeah, Maybe this should be closed

 

[FateAlbane]

@SD On the fallacy thing, that was supposed to be in regards to the other side actually making good enough points as well and being reliable enough for you to consider them. But I suppose the way it was worded did make it seem like authority/more people (?) fallacy. My bad.

 

[SomebodyData]

Nah its alright Fate, its already been pretty apparent no one believes any more in regards to PMMM, gg.

 

[Kaltias]

A few things:

Madoka's acausality does allow her to pull alternate timelines shenanigans, seeing how she was able to appear to Tamura while in a different universe before becoming the LoC (With that i mean, witches were still a thing, so the LoC was 100% not a thing. If the LoC exists, witches cannot exist, yet that's exactly what was happening)

Also I believe that SD's point was that manipulating Madoka encompasses the entire multiverse + nonexistence by default simply because that's the "size" of the LoC.

The OG Dragon being more abstract than Madoka is something that i'm not buying unless the guy is somehow more abstract than someone who is quite literally only the concept, because there is a difference between something embodying a concept (Say, Lilithmon-lust) and something being said concept. Heck, it's the reason why Madoka has Mid-Godly and type 9 while Lilithmon has type 8.

 

[FateAlbane]

Original DG is not more abstract than Madoka from a mile away.

Post-Lavos DG tho should be around the same type of Non-Corporeality Lavos itself has, being reduced to quasi-existences and later non-existent as well.

I'd say PL!DG's lvl of abstraction is above Dreams, Thoughts and Memories, and around the same Lavos itself has - aka "I'm as abstract as a non-existent timeline".

How far or how close to Madokami that is, I do not know because again, not up to date on Wraith Arc.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also I believe that SD's point was that manipulating Madoka encompasses the entire multiverse + nonexistence by default simply because that's the "size" of the LoC.

The counter point was that it's still one 2-A, rather than a bunch of it. Yes, that's the size of the LoC.

Yet, it's one being. Opponent here is a bunch of copies of the same 2-A scattered over and over rather than just one that encompasses that far. Juuuust to make sure, this is not my point on "Homura can't do that". It's my point on "Homura is not doing that easily to them all while said beings wait for it".