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Lavos + Chrono Cross Cast Attack Potency Revisions

Jinsye

She/Her
10,452
1,532
This could potentially be minor or major, depends on your interpretation. Currently Serge is rated as tier 1 for merging all of the universes into a higher-dimensional plane. This kinda sucks, and we should expand on it more.

The Evidence for Multiple Dimensions in Chrono

The current rating for Serge's tier is this statement where it is stated that the universe would be evolving into the next dimension after time is unified. This isn't the strongest evidence due to the fact that it's not entirely clear on what "evolving" means. However, one could supposedly use it as evidence to prove higher-dimensional activity exists within Chrono. As there is a second statement for such a fact.

ZpNCL2H.png


The second piece of evidence comes from Trigger, where we reach a location known as the Black Omen. The Black Omen has been stated in no uncertain terms in guides and also the game itself to transcend space-time entirely. What this means is just a special form of Acausality, as we don't give higher tiers based off of these statements. This lines up with the fact that the Black Omen exists in every single point in time no matter where you travel to, as it exists beyond the timeline and wouldn't be affected by changes within it.

gFrcbbl.png


However, that is just the English version. In the Japanese version, there is a more elaboration on why the Black Omen is what it is.

Japanese Translation​

In 2008, the Chrono Compendium started a project to translate the original game to make it "more accurate" to what the Japanese was actually saying with little localization involved. This involves directly altering the "transcend space and time" statement to something a little more specific.

xxgeN7m.png

The left is the official English translation, the middle is the Japanese, and the right is a "more accurate" translation. As you can see, with this statement it pretty blatantly says implies that the reason why the Dark Omen is the way it is, is because it flows across multiple different temporal dimensions.

The translation is accurate because あらゆる means either "all/every", and "時間次元" means 'time dimension' or 'time perspective'. That is where a bit of trickiness comes in, because 'jigen' can mean multiple things. This leads to another weird translation where "をこえてながれている" can mean "flowing over", "flowing and exceeding" or "flowing beyond", "flowing across" depending on what part of the sentence you decide to translate. However, since it specifically mentions 'flow', I would assume that it is talking about the mathematical dimension of time over simply perspectives of time.

Due to the use of "all/every", one would could take from this that the implication is that there are multiple dimensions of time that exist within the world of Chrono. Thus, this would naturally explain why the Black Omen does not change no matter what time period you go to, as it is simply functioning on another axis of time which makes it so that it is immutable.

Thus we have an implication of at least 3 spatial dimensions, and possibly more than one temporal dimension. The default option for this would be Low 1-C. This is because Serge merges and unifies all of time which would include this extra temporal dimension, and also Lavos has been stated to devour all of existence and return it to nothingness multiple times in no uncertain terms.

Conclusion​

This leaves us with the following three options. All of which I don't have much of an opinion on.

  1. Completely remove Low 1-C from Serge entirely. One could take these two statements as vague or unclear, and also that "all/every" could just mean it flows through the one (albeit I find that unlikely, as you'd be better of taking dimensions to mean something else here).
  2. Remove Low 1-C from Serge, and replace it with a "possibly higher" due to the clear implications of extra dimensions. Lavos would also get the same thing.
  3. Keep Low 1-C on Serge, and change Lavos' 2-A key to Low 1-C. Lavos is capable of devouring all of space and time so an extra temporal axis would also be accounted for in regards to this.
I can't decide which one personally.
 
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Personally I think it's option one. Evolve to the next dimension sounds like it could be a bit more of a metaphor then talk about actual dimensions, as in everything will move forward. (Though I'm unsure as I've never played the game and don't know the context behind the statement)

While their is talk of temporal dimensions in Chrono Trigger, I feel like the "dimensions" in questions are less mathematical or higher dimensional in scale, and more just a way to refer to alternate timelines or periods of time and it existing across multiple of them at the same "time".

As evidenced by the fact that in-game the Dark Omen:
Until the party enters this vast dungeon and defeats Queen Zeal, it will appear at all points in time (save for the pre-historic).
 
While their is talk of temporal dimensions in Chrono Trigger, I feel like the "dimensions" in questions are less mathematical or higher dimensional in scale, and more just a way to refer to alternate timelines or periods of time and it existing across multiple of them at the same "time".
This doesn't entirely contradict the idea that the Black Omen functions on it's own system of time, which is expanded upon in the Japanese translation to be due to it existing in it's own temporal dimension.

latest


The game makes it pretty explicit that the Black Omen exists outside of the current timeline as we know it and it functions as such (as well as jigen generally either meaning dimension or perspective and the latter definition doesn't work all too well with the word 'flow'). So I would think that there being a higher temporal dimension could be a reasonable conclusion.

But still

Remove Low 1-C: 1 (Everything12)
Possibly Higher: 0
Low 1-C: 1 (DarkDragonMedeus)
 
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Bumping for interest.
Question: How can we be sure "Evolving into the next dimension" is referring to the Home World & Other World of Chrono Cross's settings ceasing to be separated or such? Wasn't there some kind of split related to Lavos & the Frozen Flame? The Time Crash?
 
Option 1 looks the most sensible to me. Though, I have no knowledge of the games and I'm mostly going off of what I can see here.
 
Bumping for interest.
Question: How can we be sure "Evolving into the next dimension" is referring to the Home World & Other World of Chrono Cross's settings ceasing to be separated or such? Wasn't there some kind of split related to Lavos & the Frozen Flame? The Time Crash?
Because Schala specifically says that "everything has been leading up to this one moment." Which directly implies she's referring to the merge.
 
I am surprised option 1 is winning because I personally think option 2 is a bit more reasonable (as the former pretends the possibility doesn't exist period) but eh.

Remove Low 1-C: 3 (Everything12, Planck69 Setsuna_tenma)
Possibly Higher: 0
Low 1-C: 1 (DarkDragonMedeus)
 
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Because Schala specifically says that "everything has been leading up to this one moment." Which directly implies she's referring to the merge.
The Merge? The Dimensional Evolution refers to Home & Other Dimensions that CC takes place in?
Or do you mean a different merge?
In what context is "evolve into the next dimension" said?
Sorry for the dumb questions, been a while since I considered this series's lore.
 
The Merge? The Dimensional Evolution refers to Home & Other Dimensions that CC takes place in?
Or do you mean a different merge?
In what context is "evolve into the next dimension" said?
Sorry for the dumb questions, been a while since I considered this series's lore.
The merge (or the Unification of Time) directly involves the evolution into the "next dimension". Since those screens take place directly after Schala is unmerged from Lavos and Serge fixes all of time once more. It directly states in the next paragraph that "Time which has been divided, shall be unified once more". So it would refer to Home, the other dimensions, and the entire multiverse.

The 'evolving into the next dimension' is implied to be an effect of Serge unifying all of time. Though it's vague on what exactly that means.
 
Not very knowledgeable on this verse but option 3 sounds the best.
 
Might as well gather all of the other beyond time/extra temporal dimension statements in Chrono.

The Arena of Ages is a thing, where it is stated that time does not flow normally, like a different dimension altogether. It functions in such a way that if you were to go into a different timeflow then everything you've done will be washed away altogether. I do not have the Japanese translation for this statement though. If we treat this as an alternate temporal dimension then that would be supporting evidence for Low 1-C, as it'd be consistent with it having time coordinates that are beyond the flow of the timeline (for reference the End of Time is times coordinates infinity or infinity years into the future), and we generally equalize that to some alternate time dimension.

There's also the Darkness Beyond Time in which in order to get there, you need an item that travels beyond space-time altogether. It basically encompasses and is beyond all dimensions in the multiverse. It's where all lost timelines go when they get erased, which includes conceptual things such as the dreams that make up reality (they make up the Darkness Beyond Time, they're just nonexistent). Lavos naturally exists here too, and due to the fact that he devours nonexistence it can be presumed he devours the nonexistent dreams here too.
 
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Tbh it should be "2-A, likely Low 1-C", for both DD and TD and Serge, Chrono Cross or not.

Reason is because Black Omen flows through temporal dimensions, and thus flows outside of regular time, implying there's another temporal dimension which is not the "4th". It's vague, but there's enough interpretation for that imho.

Anything else shouldn't be considered, is just another universe/void which isn't really transcendent tbh.
 
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