Last Dragonborn speed downgrade.

[Shazam121]

This site lists the LDB reaction and combat speed as massively hypersonic because of the following calculation:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160306215526/http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=201317

I don't think this is a valid calculation. It uses our Earth and our Sun; the sun in the elder scrolls is not a star, it's a hole through which magic flows and the distances used by this calculation are not applicable to TES.

The mortal realm (Mundus) is infinite, the distance between Nirn and the "Sun" is probably infinite. This means the bow shoots arrows that can cover an infinite distance or it works purely through magic and distance is irrelevant here; the latter is more likely.


So, either the LDB can react to something travelling infinitely fast (which is ridiculous) or he isn't massively hypersonic (much more likely).

 

[VenomElite]

I don't know who's our TES expert(s). I can say myself that, the calculation is not valid due to the Sun not being an actual star as you already pointed out but I want more staff input on this before I discredit anything as I could be wrong (haven't played the game in a long time).

 

[Shazam121]

I can't believe I overlooked such a simple thing: even if the arrow was able to move infinitely fast it wouldn't scale to the LDB. Only the LDB uses Auriel's bow in Skyrim, no one uses it against him so it can't be a measure of his reaction time.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

We don't use the MFTL end, though. We use the distance between Earth and Space, not the distance between Earth and the Sun. Granted, my Elder Scrolls lore is pretty rusty so I'm not sure if that is contradicted by lore as well.

 

[VenomElite]

Well, I'll highlight this for more input.

 

[Shazam121]

We don't use the MFTL end, though. We use the distance between Earth and Space, not the distance between Earth and the Sun. Granted, my Elder Scrolls lore is pretty rusty so I'm not sure if that is contradicted by lore as well.

Well here's the thing, it doesn't even matter what the arrow does. The LDB never has to react to it, they only ever use it, no one ever uses it against them.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Even considering TES lore Nirn should still have some kind of atmosphere which the arrow would need to cross in order to reach the Sun.

But yeah he does need a downgrade since npcs can dodge the arrows from several meters and not from point black range.

I think this has been discussed and the final value came at Hypersonic+ level.

@VenomElite Sheoth used to be our TES expert but he isn't active anymore.I have more than 500 hours on Skyrim, a few on Oblivion and i've read some of its lore so even though i'm not an expert i do have some good knowledge of it.

 

[LordXcano]

Does it really need to cross the atmosphere though? It just blots out the Sun IIRC, and that can be done from any arbitrarily high distance. I can see people saying that it must cross at least the height of the Throat of the World though, since I'd assume the sky would still be blackened from that high up.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

But yeah he does need a downgrade since npcs can dodge the arrows from several meters and not from point black range.

Wouldn't this be game mechanics? Considering Dragonborn can get killed by crabs..

 

[VenomElite]

@VenomElite Sheoth used to be our TES expert but he isn't active anymore.I have more than 500 hours on Skyrim, a few on Oblivion and i've read some of its lore so even though i'm not an expert i do have some good knowledge of it.

I miss Sheoth :/

Anyway, I ask the same question as Scarlet. Is that not game mechanics or...?

 

[Sera_EX]

Ehh, I'm not sure on the whole game mechanics topic. But I can agree with a downgrade. I'm not a TES expert per se, my knowledge of the lore is pretty on point.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that this seems reasonable.

Are there any other Elder Scrolls calculations that we can scale the Dragonborn, and all related characters, from, or do we have to adjust them to Unknown ratings?

 

[Shazam121]

I also think that this seems reasonable.
Are there any other Elder Scrolls calculations that we can scale the Dragonborn, and all related characters, from, or do we have to adjust them to Unknown ratings?

Either unknown or somewhat superhuman is a pretty safe bet. The races of TES tend to be stronger and/ or faster than normal humans. You could scale him from the ESO trailers which typically show low-superhuman feats, LDB should be superior to any of the mortals in th ESO trailers at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TvZ8arIamo&t=10s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuHWWC9xxmk&t=19s

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Can we scale from trailers?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that Unknown seems like a better option in that case.

 

[Shazam121]

Unknown is fine with me too.

I'm gonna make a few more TES content revision threads, a couple more downgrades and maybe one upgrade. I hope thats okay ^^

 

[LordXcano]

Just FYI, if we go with assuming it crosses the height of the Throat of the World and we high-ball the TotW's 7000 steps to be 1 meter each that'd be 3500 m/s. Although, IRL, most "steps" tend to be 7.75 to 10 inches. So assuming each step is 7.75 inches here that'd be 688.98 m/s. So I'd say that either way it's some form of supersonic speed.

Although there is still the possibility that the clouds the arrow releases travel vertically as well as horizontally, thus removing the need to travel so high up.

 

[Legion350]

What about this feat?

 

[LordXcano]

I got Mach 199.1 for that, but it didn't seem to go anywhere.

 

[Shazam121]

Calcs are not that great at working out how powerful TES is. Cus game mechanics and all that.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

hm...

Yeah, npcs dodging arrows fired from Auriel's bow is probably game mechanics since all ingame arrows travel at the same speed.

From ingame feats Dovahkiin isn't really special, though Slow Time shout helps a bit.

For anything regarding Odahviing's flight speed i'll need to research on how big Skyrim actually is, which of course is going to change the results of some other calcs since until now i used some values i found on TES wiki.

Also i doubt that cinematics are cannon.

 

[LordXcano]

Odahviig's flight was already based on lore given distances.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordXcano Perhaps you could make a calculation blog for the feat, in case it is possible to scale from it?

 

[LordXcano]

Don't need to, it was already done. That's what I linked.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if it was accepted by the OBD, we should probably be able to use it.

 

[BRAFF_ZACKLIN]

this is legitimate as elder scrolls cosmology is completely ******. until someone provides a better way to quatify his speed though i would suggest lowering it to say subsonic normally (can dodge arrows at point blank consistently), and supersonic with whirlwind sprint (creates a sonic boom when used)

 

[Antvasima]

So, is anybody willing to apply the changes?

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Darkanine and the OP are corrent, the disctance from the sun and space should be more valid and the sun to the earth.

However enemies do not weild that weapon, and the fact they cannot even use the weapon at that speed, unless they point it at the sun itself.

The calc take adavantage of the common vs debater's lack of knowledge of how TES works and the lore.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, this makes sense. However, somebody still has to modify the pages according to the above discussion.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop would like to however Hop is too busy for anything more than a quick comment. Tomorrow at latest Hop will begin revisions.

 

[Shazam121]

Unknown would be the best rating imo. Game mechanics make calculations dubious when it comes to TES.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

That is a good point, but it is preferable that we do have something listed, as there are things we can scale or calculate.

 

[Shazam121]

Placing the LDB anywhere near the speed of sound seems pretty ridiculous I think.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Can you elaborate why, or disprove the previous method of how?

To be fair, with all of his powers he could be extremely fast if game emchanics were removed. For instance, his fastest two handed attacks plus Slow Time shout and Elemental Fury shout put together would put him in Subsonic+ combat speed, at least. That's absurdly fast for a charcter in ES lore, well, excluding beings outside of Mundus.

 

[Shazam121]

Stacking different magical powers I suppose it would be in the realms of possibility, but It's not easy to say where game mechanics begin and end. How fast they are normally? Impossible to say, we can't be sure what race the LDB was and different races have different advantages. Ideally we need some kinda of in-game or WoG information to shed some light on what the Thuum is capable of.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Ideally, we could use Bethesda's interpretation. A Nord, male or female, makes no difference, and probably well built. Also in canon, we do know the LDB does do all the main quests in the vanilla game, and the DLC. So LDB > Harkon, Alduin or Miraak is reasonable to assume. So he/she could scale to all of those characters.

 

[Shazam121]

Seems reasonable.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Of course. As for the scaling to Ariel's Bow. IDK, sounds dumb. Firstly, the arrow might go that fast, but an enemy never wields it or uses it against the Dragonborn. So Hop is leaning toward discarding that logic, as in game and especially in lore, probably not feasible or even reasonable to pretend it could happen.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Hop. So what should we change the speed statistics to instead, and which characters would be affected?

 

[BRAFF_ZACKLIN]

since the last dragonborn can consistently react to arrows at point blank he should be placed at subsonic until someone has legitimate proof of a higher speed. arrows being able to travel around 68 meters per second which qualifies as sub sonic.