Las Noches Size Downgrade

[Lynieryz]

Why is superhuman speed being used as an argument for pages and pages? This very superhuman speed is derived from calculations and cannot be used because of calc stacking.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I think a lot of people here are trying to apply how other verses are usually scaled to this series, and because Bleach handles it differently, they automatically label it as wank or dishonest scaling. In a lot of cases that would be fair, but every verse should be scaled based on the most reliable way that specific author gives information, not by forcing the standards of other series onto it. Different fictional works communicate scale in different ways. Some rely heavily on visuals, some rely more on narration or statements. To judge that properly, you need to understand the author’s strengths and weaknesses. I know that might sound like I’m just making excuses, but hear me out.

First, we can’t ignore the way the Seireitei is handled here. If you don’t have an issue with Seireitei scaling, then you really shouldn’t have an issue with Las Noches scaling either, because both have the exact same kind of issues. Their sense of scale is established in basically the same way: through statements about how many days it takes to travel across certain parts or the entire location. Without the Fade to Black material, there would only be one major statement giving us a sense of Seireitei’s size, which is the Yoruichi 10-day walking statement. We don’t have a similar movie for Las Noches, but the point is clear: most people treat Fade to Black as the best source for Seireitei’s scale. And the only thing in the manga that even lines up with that interpretation isn’t the visuals it’s the Yoruichi statement. Even then, it still comes out a bit smaller (less than 1.5x difference) than the movie interpretation. What that already shows is that the most reliable source of information for scale in Bleach usually comes from statements, not visuals. Kubo’s visual portrayals have their own issues and inconsistencies, and many of them don’t reflect the scale his statements imply.

Those same issues show up again in the next arc, where Kubo presents Las Noches in the same way: inconstent visuals, even made more inconsistent by statements from reliable characters and narrative context. Past inconsistencies show that visual portrayal is one of Kubo’s weaker areas, so it should be treated as a secondary source. Narratively important statements should carry more weight. So if your whole argument depends on pointing out visual inconsistencies, then you’re basically using one of the author’s known weaknesses to dismiss one of his clearer strengths. That approach might work in other verses where visuals are the most consistent source, but with Bleach, it’s the opposite. Kubo shows that repeatedly.

The blog on this topic already points out a lot of flaws in Kubo’s visual portrayals, including his lack of focus on backgrounds, which only reinforces that large-scale environmental depictions were never his strong point.


SO SHOULD VISUALS BE COMPLETELY DISREGARDED?

No, I don’t think visuals should just be ignored but just that they shouldn’t override statements. The best approach is to use them together. Statements should act as the main sense of scale, and then visuals can be used to figure out proportions like distances, area, and layout based on that scale. That’s basically the closest you can get to the author’s actual intent, especially when it comes to something like Seireitei and las noches scaling. We also can’t just throw away the methods that have already been used before and shown to be much closer to the author's intent and suddenly switch to a new approach especially when that new approach (relying heavily on visuals) is something Kubo has already contradicted in earlier arcs. That just creates inconsistency in how the verse is treated. That said, I’m not against compromise. A middle ground makes sense like factoring in things such as rest time, travel conditions, or other variables, so the final scale can reasonably satisfy both sides instead of completely favoring one method over the other.

 

[Damage3245]

We also can’t just throw away the methods that have already been used before and shown to be much closer to the author's intent and suddenly switch to a new approach especially when that new approach (relying heavily on visuals) is something Kubo has already contradicted in earlier arcs.

We can. There are no rules against it so far as I'm aware.

 

[Specterxxxx]

We can. There are no rules against it so far as I'm aware.

If you do, then you are disregarding what the author is trying to tell you for what suits your agenda better and that would be quite against the purpose of this site as far as i am aware, you can do whatever you want to at the end of the day, i am not a mod, i am just trying to show why the approach i am proposing is more closer to author's intent, it is left for yall to decide.

 

[Damage3245]

If you do, then you are disregarding what the author is trying to tell you for what suits your agenda better and that would be quite against the purpose of the site as far as i am aware, you can do whatever you want to at the end of the day, i am not a mod, i am just trying to show why the approach i am proposing is more closer to author's intent, it is left for yall to decide.

Personally I don't think the author's intent can be derived solely from statements; at the end of the day Kubo provides information to us in what he draws just as much as what he writes. It's the same for every single manga series.

And the worst possible option (in my view) is leaning preferentially in favor of statements when it is convenient and still relying on visuals that are inflated by said statements instead of taking the visuals at face value themselves. If we can't look at the visuals of a scene to determine roughly how big a structure is supposed to be, it is insane to me that we can look at those same visuals and say "Oh, yeah, the author clearly intended for that explosion to be hundreds of kilometers across."

 

[Lynieryz]

And the worst possible option (in my view) is leaning preferentially in favor of statements when it is convenient and still relying on visuals that are inflated by said statements instead of taking the visuals at face value themselves. If we can't look at the visuals of a scene to determine roughly how big a structure is supposed to be, it is insane to me that we can look at those same visuals and say "Oh, yeah, the author clearly intended for that explosion to be hundreds of kilometers across."

Yes, and that has already been addressed. The conclusion was to stop using that explosion and instead use the statements of destroying Las Noches from resurrection and CO/GRC.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Personally I don't think the author's intent can be derived solely from statements; at the end of the day Kubo provides information to us in what he draws just as much as what he writes. It's the same for every single manga series.

No, I don’t think visuals should just be ignored but just that they shouldn’t override statements. The best approach is to use them together. Statements should act as the main sense of scale, and then visuals can be used to figure out proportions like distances, area, and layout based on that scale. That’s basically the closest you can get to the author’s actual intent, especially when it comes to something like Seireitei and las noches scaling

I literally said the same thing, i don't think anyone disagrees with this.

And the worst possible option (in my view) is leaning preferentially in favor of statements when it is convenient and still relying on visuals that are inflated by said statements instead of taking the visuals at face value themselves. If we can't look at the visuals of a scene to determine roughly how big a structure is supposed to be, it is insane to me that we can look at those same visuals and say "Oh, yeah, the author clearly intended for that explosion to be hundreds of kilometers across."

It is insane, because kubo sucks at proportions and makes up for it with a scale of reference, a statement. It is not really our fault that the author consistently does things like this tho. I could intend for something to be so but i cant express it for others to understand without providing an easier, a statement cause if the author didnt intend it to be like that he wouldnt drop a statement BOTH times, he depicted a location when he knows his visual portrayal is not that good.

 

[YmTheSuper]

So I reread the arc and found few interesting things that make me lean towards agreeing with the downgrade for now.

So first of all let's look at the visibility and how distances are treated across the arc in Las Noches:

• Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were able to see the entirety of Las Noches at once in one view once they arrived to Hueco Mundo. We can also see how the central pillars are visible to them from the edge of the palace.
• Additionally the pillars at the center are a major feature of Las Noches, being visible in all the full shots of it.
• Nnoitra was able of noticing Nel's de-aging and transformation despite the fact that he's above Las Noches and she's at the bottom.
• After Aizen announced that Orihime is know located at one of the central pillars, Ichigo managed to reach there in few minutes from near the walls of Las Noches. We know that he was near the walls of Las Noches because he stayed in approximately the same location as the one he entered the castle from during his first fight with Ulquiorra, his fight with Grimmjow and Kenpachi and Nel's fights with Nnoitra. And we know that the duration of Ichigo's arrival to the pillars was brief as Ulquiorra's conversation with Orihime started right after Aizen's announcement and then was interrupted by the arrival of Ichigo.
• Similarly Renji, Rukia and Chad reached the pillars at similar times. For Rukia and Chad they stayed next to the walls for the whole length of the arc up until this point, as Chad was knocked out immediately once he reached under the Canopy of Las Noches by Nnoitra while Rukia was left near death in Aaroniero's palace, right next to the walls.
• The case is similar for the Exequias. Who we see go from the wall of Las Noches executing the privaron espada to the central towers/pillars.
• Ichigo and Ulquiorra manage to reach above Las Noches' canopy in seconds. It also takes a small time for Uryu and Orihime to reach it, seemingly few seconds to minutes at most.
• That hole that is created by Ichigo and Ulquiorra going above the canopy is pretty small, smaller than the pillars' width and not much larger than Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It is visible fron below to both Rudbon who is at the very bottom and Orihime and Uryu who are within the tower. We also later get another shot where the hole is visible from the ground below the palace.
• Ichigo's Cero creates this explosion which takes up a significant potion of Las Noches' roof. Yet we can see that Ulquiorra with half of his body gone managed to go outside of the hole created from its center in seconds.. And we can also see in that same shot that Uryu who is outside of the crater can view Ichigo who's at the center clearly.
• We also get a shot that showcases both the width of that hole from the inside along with the height of Las Noches.
• Another example of this is sequence where Ulquiorra drops Ichigo right next to the pillars, then Orihime moves him to her location where he transforms into his full hollow form, right after that Ichigo and Ulquiorra have a massive cero clash creating a massive blast which created this hole here. That means Orihime managed in few seconds to move Ichigo from the pillars to the other side of the crater which takes up a significant portion lf of Las Noches' canopy.

We know that the arc takes place in few hours, the majority of the events happen in less than an hour, due to Szayelaporro's statement that the time from the start of his fight with Uryu (An early event in the arc) to the arrival of the captains in Hueco Mundo (right before Ichigo's and Ulquiorra's fight) took less than an hour. We also have Grimmjow's statement that Ulquiorra would stay imprisoned for a maximum of 2 or 3 hours, confirming that the arc can't be much longer, since that caps the time between Ichigo's fights with Grimmjow and Ulquiorra at 3 hours. Keep in mind that essentially that whole period involved almost zero travel with purely fights, whenever the characters try to reach a location they do so in quickly as is the case with our characters reaching the pillars at the center in few minutes.

Also the travel speeds of the characters as portrayed shouldn't be absurdly and ridiculously above walking speed, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Renji to acknowledge the long time of travel after Nel's statement and it wouldn't make sense for Nel to mention the timeframe using walking considering that they used Bawabawa to reach Las Noches in the first place which Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were struggling to reach meaning Bawabawa should be faster for travel (she would have just said that it would take few minutes for them to reach the gate using him if the speed gap was that massive). The same Bawabawa was struggling to escape this hole of falling sand.

Although in my opinion the whole point about atmospheric physics is irrelevant and not convincing, fiction almost never treats such things as realistic and physically accurate.

Overall I don't think that Las Noches is supposed to be this country sized palace due to not only the visual contradictions but the fact that there's nothing we see implying that it's that large throught the arc other than Nel's statement. As for the replacement size I don't fully agree with the 5 kilometers value (I have seen an offsite calc giving a size of 13km which probably makes more sense), Although I did find that the scaling Las Noches to its height found from the blast that Ichigo's cero creates is pretty consistent giving a 5.9km width for Las Noches. (The cero was used on the left side of the palace which is why i used that location in Las Noches for the height)

Another option I wouldn't be against is having two values, a regular value for the pixel scaled size and the yields of its derivative calculations and a possibly value for the size using Nel's statement since both points of view are valid and rely on the events and the showings in the manga without anything super consistent or conclusive.

 

[TheDeadman21]

So I reread the arc and found few interesting things that make me lean towards agreeing with the downgrade for now.

So first of all let's look at the visibility and how distances are treated across the arc in Las Noches:

• Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were able to see the entirety of Las Noches at once in one view once they arrived to Hueco Mundo. We can also see how the central pillars are visible to them from the edge of the palace.
• Additionally the pillars at the center are a major feature of Las Noches, being visible in all the full shots of it.
• Nnoitra was able of noticing Nel's de-aging and transformation despite the fact that he's above Las Noches and she's at the bottom.
• After Aizen announced that Orihime is know located at one of the central pillars, Ichigo managed to reach there in few minutes from near the walls of Las Noches. We know that he was near the walls of Las Noches because he stayed in approximately the same location as the one he entered the castle from during his first fight with Ulquiorra, his fight with Grimmjow and Kenpachi and Nel's fights with Nnoitra. And we know that the duration of Ichigo's arrival to the pillars was brief as Ulquiorra's conversation with Orihime started right after Aizen's announcement and then was interrupted by the arrival of Ichigo.
• Similarly Renji, Rukia and Chad reached the pillars at similar times. For Rukia and Chad they stayed next to the walls for the whole length of the arc up until this point, as Chad was knocked out immediately once he reached under the Canopy of Las Noches by Nnoitra while Rukia was left near death in Aaroniero's palace, right next to the walls.
• The case is similar for the Exequias. Who we see go from the wall of Las Noches executing the privaron espada to the central towers/pillars.
• Ichigo and Ulquiorra manage to reach above Las Noches' canopy in seconds. It also takes a small time for Uryu and Orihime to reach it, seemingly few seconds to minutes at most.
• That hole that is created by Ichigo and Ulquiorra going above the canopy is pretty small, smaller than the pillars' width and not much larger than Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It is visible fron below to both Rudbon who is at the very bottom and Orihime and Uryu who are within the tower. We also later get another shot where the hole is visible from the ground below the palace.
• Ichigo's Cero creates this explosion which takes up a significant potion of Las Noches' roof. Yet we can see that Ulquiorra with half of his body gone managed to go outside of the hole created from its center in seconds.. And we can also see in that same shot that Uryu who is outside of the crater can view Ichigo who's at the center clearly.
• We also get a shot that showcases both the width of that hole from the inside along with the height of Las Noches.
• Another example of this is sequence where Ulquiorra drops Ichigo right next to the pillars, then Orihime moves him to her location where he transforms into his full hollow form, right after that Ichigo and Ulquiorra have a massive cero clash creating a massive blast which created this hole here. That means Orihime managed in few seconds to move Ichigo from the pillars to the other side of the crater which takes up a significant portion lf of Las Noches' canopy.

We know that the arc takes place in few hours, the majority of the events happen in less than an hour, due to Szayelaporro's statement that the time from the start of his fight with Uryu (An early event in the arc) to the arrival of the captains in Hueco Mundo (right before Ichigo's and Ulquiorra's fight) took less than an hour. We also have Grimmjow's statement that Ulquiorra would stay imprisoned for a maximum of 2 or 3 hours, confirming that the arc can't be much longer, since that caps the time between Ichigo's fights with Grimmjow and Ulquiorra at 3 hours. Keep in mind that essentially that whole period involved almost zero travel with purely fights, whenever the characters try to reach a location they do so in quickly as is the case with our characters reaching the pillars at the center in few minutes.

Also the travel speeds of the characters as portrayed shouldn't be absurdly and ridiculously above walking speed, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Renji to acknowledge the long time of travel after Nel's statement and it wouldn't make sense for Nel to mention the timeframe using walking considering that they used Bawabawa to reach Las Noches in the first place which Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were struggling to reach meaning Bawabawa should be faster for travel (she would have just said that it would take few minutes for them to reach the gate using him if the speed gap was that massive). The same Bawabawa was struggling to escape this hole of falling sand.

Although in my opinion the whole point about atmospheric physics is irrelevant and not convincing, fiction almost never treats such things as realistic and physically accurate.

Overall I don't think that Las Noches is supposed to be this country sized palace due to not only the visual contradictions but the fact that there's nothing we see implying that it's that large throught the arc other than Nel's statement. As for the replacement size I don't fully agree with the 5 kilometers value (I have seen an offsite calc giving a size of 13km which probably makes more sense), Although I did find that the scaling Las Noches to its height found from the blast that Ichigo's cero creates is pretty consistent giving a 5.9km width for Las Noches. (The cero was used on the left side of the palace which is why i used that location in Las Noches for the height)

Another option I wouldn't be against is having two values, a regular value for the pixel scaled size and the yields of its derivative calculations and a possibly value for the size using Nel's statement since both points of view are valid and rely on the events and the showings in the manga without anything super consistent or conclusive.

These are actually much better arguments for the downgrade imo because you bring up points that are narratively in conflict with Nel's statement with its context, so its beyond just the visuals. I disagreed before because I thought the evidence and the reasoning against Nel's statement isn't strong enough to override it, but for me this seems convincing for now.

 

[IbukiDoujisGiantTail]

I'm in agreement with a downgrade, or at least a recalc of the distances

There's been a lot of "statements vs visuals" arguments flying around but I think that there's just more evidence for Las Noches having an inflated size if it's solely contingent on Nel's statement. I don't think Nel's statement is entirely dismissable because despite suffering from some amnesia, she is meant to be a (mouthpiece) guide for the lore and is consistent with the lore drops she gives. But when there's so much more evidence towards the contrary, this one statement is not really the silver bullet towards keeping the bigger size that some are treating it as.

 

[Arkenis]

So I reread the arc and found few interesting things that make me lean towards agreeing with the downgrade for now.

So first of all let's look at the visibility and how distances are treated across the arc in Las Noches:

• Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were able to see the entirety of Las Noches at once in one view once they arrived to Hueco Mundo. We can also see how the central pillars are visible to them from the edge of the palace.
• Additionally the pillars at the center are a major feature of Las Noches, being visible in all the full shots of it.
• Nnoitra was able of noticing Nel's de-aging and transformation despite the fact that he's above Las Noches and she's at the bottom.
• After Aizen announced that Orihime is know located at one of the central pillars, Ichigo managed to reach there in few minutes from near the walls of Las Noches. We know that he was near the walls of Las Noches because he stayed in approximately the same location as the one he entered the castle from during his first fight with Ulquiorra, his fight with Grimmjow and Kenpachi and Nel's fights with Nnoitra. And we know that the duration of Ichigo's arrival to the pillars was brief as Ulquiorra's conversation with Orihime started right after Aizen's announcement and then was interrupted by the arrival of Ichigo.
• Similarly Renji, Rukia and Chad reached the pillars at similar times. For Rukia and Chad they stayed next to the walls for the whole length of the arc up until this point, as Chad was knocked out immediately once he reached under the Canopy of Las Noches by Nnoitra while Rukia was left near death in Aaroniero's palace, right next to the walls.
• The case is similar for the Exequias. Who we see go from the wall of Las Noches executing the privaron espada to the central towers/pillars.
• Ichigo and Ulquiorra manage to reach above Las Noches' canopy in seconds. It also takes a small time for Uryu and Orihime to reach it, seemingly few seconds to minutes at most.
• That hole that is created by Ichigo and Ulquiorra going above the canopy is pretty small, smaller than the pillars' width and not much larger than Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It is visible fron below to both Rudbon who is at the very bottom and Orihime and Uryu who are within the tower. We also later get another shot where the hole is visible from the ground below the palace.
• Ichigo's Cero creates this explosion which takes up a significant potion of Las Noches' roof. Yet we can see that Ulquiorra with half of his body gone managed to go outside of the hole created from its center in seconds.. And we can also see in that same shot that Uryu who is outside of the crater can view Ichigo who's at the center clearly.
• We also get a shot that showcases both the width of that hole from the inside along with the height of Las Noches.
• Another example of this is sequence where Ulquiorra drops Ichigo right next to the pillars, then Orihime moves him to her location where he transforms into his full hollow form, right after that Ichigo and Ulquiorra have a massive cero clash creating a massive blast which created this hole here. That means Orihime managed in few seconds to move Ichigo from the pillars to the other side of the crater which takes up a significant portion lf of Las Noches' canopy.

Not sure if anyone's pointed it out, but like guys, all you've done with bringing up visuals is further showing more inconsistencies with the art itself. I'll point out the most glaring inconsistency that idt anyone's said yet, but those large shots of LN just so happen to not show us the giant towers surrounding it. Where are they? Did I miss something that they got removed?

• Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were able to see the entirety of Las Noches at once in one view once they arrived to Hueco Mundo. We can also see how the central pillars are visible to them from the edge of the palace.
• Additionally the pillars at the center are a major feature of Las Noches, being visible in all the full shots of it.

They're a POI, they are not meant to be taken at face value. Please look at these instances and tell me they all look perfectly the same in size. Look at the example where Ulquiorra stands on one where all them are closely packed together, their scale is random.

Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were able to see the entirety of Las Noches at once in one view once they arrived to Hueco Mundo. We can also see how the central pillars are visible to them from the edge of the palace.

Yeah and then they travel for a long time and still LN looks massively far away.
Here's Los Noches after running

Here's after traveling on Bawabawa

Ichigo and Ulquiorra manage to reach above Las Noches' canopy in seconds. It also takes a small time for Uryu and Orihime to reach it, seemingly few seconds to minutes at most.

Is this supposed to be support? Or further inconsistency? For three characters who can fly fast this makes the canopy incredibly high and Ichigo himself questions how far Ulq's gonna go

That hole that is created by Ichigo and Ulquiorra going above the canopy is pretty small, smaller than the pillars' width and not much larger than Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It is visible fron below to both Rudbon who is at the very bottom and Orihime and Uryu who are within the tower. We also later get another shot where the hole is visible from the ground below the palace.

The more interesting part here is Uryu's surprise that LN really did have a canopy. Which lends more credence that the height is kms high, a conservative estimate being hundreds of meters to several km. Going by this, the pillars in the middle, would be tiny if they were just 100m~, also Ulquiorra wouldn't be easily visible on them like we see him and Ichigo are near them. Again, just more reason we should be dismissing them as a real measurement.

Nnoitra was able of noticing Nel's de-aging and transformation despite the fact that he's above Las Noches and she's at the bottom.

Same for this. The canopy is miles high, the walls would be similar yet Nnoitra could see her? They clearly have increased sight to see Nel from so high up or just felt her spirit energy. So this doesn't support the size smaller, just makes Nnoita have good eyes.

Since we're speaking on the visuals though, I'd like others to look at this. When Ichigo falls within the smoke from Ulq's OSC which you'll notice isn't anywhere near the pillars, yet when Ulq kicks him outside of it, the pillar just happens to be right there, and not only right there, but he kicks him right near the top of them.

But just shortly after, we're now shown that the smoke is much further away?

Overall I don't think that Las Noches is supposed to be this country sized palace due to not only the visual contradictions but the fact that there's nothing we see implying that it's that large throught the arc other than Nel's statement. As for the replacement size I don't fully agree with the 5 kilometers value (I have seen an offsite calc giving a size of 13km which probably makes more sense).

What visually would demonstrate a country size castle?

 

[Damage3245]

The more interesting part here is Uryu's surprise that LN really did have a canopy. Which lends more credence that the height is kms high, a conservative estimate being hundreds of meters to several km.

Why would Uryu's surprise lend credence to that? There is no way for them to judge on the inside if there is a ceiling or how far above them it is, as to them the ceiling looks like a realistic sky.

And several hundred meters to several km would go against the current size calc which puts the height of Las Noches' dome at 86 kilometers.

 

[Arkenis]

Why would Uryu's surprise lend credence to that? There is no way for them to judge on the inside if there is a ceiling or how far above them it is, as to them the ceiling looks like a realistic sky.

That's my point. The height is so high it messes with his perspective.

And several hundred meters to several km would go against the current size calc which puts the height of Las Noches' dome at 86 kilometers.

Yeah I said that's a conservative estimate. It goes along with the Nnoitra point if that wasn't clear on my half. Nnoitra seeing Nel isn't really a counter cuz then that makes the visuals still inconsistent.

 

[Damage3245]

That's my point. The height is so high it messes with his perspective.

No... I wouldn't say it's the height that messes with their perspective; it's the fact that it looks like a sky rather than the ceiling.

To put it another way; if you had an ultra-realistic photo of a street put onto a wall, and you walked into it; it wouldn't be because the wall was so far away from you that it looks like it stretched into the distance. It would be because what you saw in front of you was so realistic that you couldn't tall there was a wall there.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Also the travel speeds of the characters as portrayed shouldn't be absurdly and ridiculously above walking speed, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Renji to acknowledge the long time of travel after Nel's statement and it wouldn't make sense for Nel to mention the timeframe using walking considering that they used Bawabawa to reach Las Noches in the first place which Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were struggling to reach meaning Bawabawa should be faster for travel (she would have just said that it would take few minutes for them to reach the gate using him if the speed gap was that massive). The same Bawabawa was struggling to escape this hole of falling sand.

Another option I wouldn't be against is having two values, a regular value for the pixel scaled size and the yields of its derivative calculations and a possibly value for the size using Nel's statement since both points of view are valid and rely on the events and the showings in the manga without anything super consistent or conclusive.

I don't see how any of this narratively contradicts the walking-days statements. Even in humans, the difference between running and walking can reach around x10 in extreme cases, and this completely ignores any superhuman amps these characters have. How is a x10 difference not a lot? So your argument does not hold: “the arc lasted only some hours, so they must have taken only hours to walk around because their travel speed isn't much higher than walking speed.”

The idea of Bawabawa also does not contradict the walking-days statements. If you live in New York and you are in a rush, you might say, “It is 30 minutes walking distance.” You are using walking speed as the reference from your daily life to point out the distance; that does not mean the 30 minutes includes running or using Bawabawa as a ride. This also ignores the fact that Nel was not in a hurry and was just genuinely giving a plausible timeframe for them to reach the destination without rushing.

Overall, aside from visual inconsistencies, there are virtually zero contradictions to simply interpreting it as a walking-speed distance from one gate to the other.

Actually some shot posted by @Arkenis just show how much those buildings that are drawn close are in reality extremely far away from each other.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Is Nel superhuman?

She is one of the strongest beings in the verse at the time of that arc

I'm not as familiar with the source material, so forgive me if it's obvious by being more familiar with it.

But why did you post this album and say it indicates Ichigo went from the 11th division to the center in a single day? And similarly, why did you say this scan indicated a similar timeframe? And how does this scan say it's the third day since they got into the Seretei?

no problem, it's kinda hard to show scans for all parts as I'd have to post a boatload of scans for that but the gist ichigo and his whole friend group entered the seretei which is a circular structure, they all got split and shot near the edge (in ch85 iirc) from there onward he and his friends made there way to the centre of the seretei which rukia's castle is, all of ichigos friends more or less go towards the center and reach it despite taking fights in between so not even covering a whole day, the second scan, I'm using to show Orihime & Uryu were in disguises because this is an infiltration mission means they pretended to be one of their own and had to walk while in disguises to blend in very carefully, ganju and chad also made their way to the center similarly with the former character basically being a fodder, the last scan if you look in the second panel, this is a statement that was dropped when ichigo entered bankai training, their journey in the rukon district to Kukaku's house took 1 day, all the events of the seretei also took 1 day as it is the second day and then bankai training is listed the third day since they got into the soul society which mean a grand total of <1 day was taken for the journey while walking for all 5 members

If you do, then you are disregarding what the author is trying to tell you for what suits your agenda better and that would be quite against the purpose of this site as far as i am aware, you can do whatever you want to at the end of the day, i am not a mod, i am just trying to show why the approach i am proposing is more closer to author's intent, it is left for yall to decide.

idk how many times we told you this but the statement does not remotely mean what you swear it means

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Your arguments fundamentally fail, simply because it applies inconsistent standards to different types of evidence, and misrepresents how scaling works in context.

so this line is just a nothing burger yap, this rest of what you said is just more yap, if you're not even gonna respond to my carefully constructed counters and just parrot your previous claims you're just wasting my time and everyone's time, im skipping to the parts where I wanna demonstrate where you all fall short

Btw, your AI calculation is not what you actually proposed or said, it simply shows the difference between traveling across the curve, along the edge, noth to the center.

yes it does
because straight paths and curved paths are relevant here? the only way you could get faster than going along the curves is by going on a straight path which would shave off a 10 hour duration to 9 hours, that's the biggest benefit you could possibly argue here

Not that it matters, because like stated, Yoruichi specifically refers to walking. Ichigo is shown running.

Nope, they were in a rush buddy, the situation was dire in both cases, you think yoruichi is not gonna factor in how much fast they can move at? hell I've also proved with Orihime & Uryu's case that they were not running, they (most) dont have shunpo either so that argument gets thrown out of the window. Orihime and Ganju also never displayed superhuman speeds in the series so she'd be assumed to have human travel speed, same with Hanataro who's fodder

His friends Chad, Orihime and Uryu reached the center of the Seretei from near the edge within the same timeframe, the latter two were under disguises, moving at a much slower pace to blend in avoiding most fights aside from Jiboro

maybe you'd be making good arguments if you did not just parrot old shit like some broken record and actually attempt to counter those debunked arguments you keep repeating

---

So Hellscream ducks the rest but the main point I wanna emphasize here the fact that the timeframe statements the pro-bleach squad swears gets contradicted several times with several of the characters crossing the seretei distances within less than day (I say less because breaks and fights were also mixed in those same days)

when given the opportunity to challenge my argument, they could not refute this, only Hellscream addressed them and all he does is just repeat first lines & could not really debunk my counters as you can see in this very post so based on that I believe we should disregard those Nel statements as Kubo now has a proven history of having his timeframe statements get proven to not actually take that much time which weakens their weight and given how everyone swore it's 1:1 that seretei and las noches have 1:1 problems we should similarly disregard Nel's statement to also be incorrect, I say this because @Agnaa was waiting on me and him to hash it out before he comes to a conclusion so there you have it

 

[Hellscream]

so this line is just a nothing burger yap, fixed durations that get contradicted by travel within the series means it's not fixed and flimsy as hell and you keep forcing the idea that it is totally meant to indicate size

"walking" meaning that if they don't walk, the statement doesn't apply, is your mind blown yet or what?

which you can genuinely not prove, only spam claims, you can't even argue as to why my interp for it's narrative intent is wrong, you just repeat the same shit

i can and i did

this rest of what you said is just more yap, if you're not even gonna respond to my carefully constructed counters and just parrot your previous claims you're just wasting my time and everyone's time, im skipping to the parts with substance

there's no carefully constructed counter, you literally cannot comprehend narrative intent behind the actions on an author

yes it does
because straight paths and curved paths are relevant here? the only way you could get faster than going along the curves is by going on a straight path which would shave off a 10 hour duration to 9 hours

?.. you were talking about ichigo reaching the center of serieitei in 1 day

maybe you'd be making good arguments if you did not just parrot old shit like some broken record and actually attempt to counter those debunked arguments you keep repeating

I never said this either

you don't seem to realize it, but you didn't debunk anything..

"I am open to an averaged result of them all to aim for greater consistency, since it's a standard procedure i might add (this would include nel's statement too btw)"

How big is the Seireitei consistently?

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hellscream]

So Hellscream ducks the rest but the main point I wanna emphasize here the fact that the timeframe statements the pro-bleach squad swears gets contradicted several times with several of the characters crossing the seretei distances within less than day (I say less because breaks and fights were also mixed in those same days)

when given the opportunity to challenge my argument, they could not refute this, only Hellscream addressed them and all he does is just repeat first lines & could not really debunk my counters as you can see in this very post so based on that I believe we should disregard those Nel statements as Kubo now has a proven history of having his timeframe statements get proven to not actually take that much time which weakens their weight and given how everyone and their mother swore it's 1:1 that seretei and las noches have 1:1 problems we should similarly disregard Nel's statement to also be incorrect, I say this because @Agnaa was waiting on me and him to hash it out before he comes to a conclusion so there you have it

you literally cannot even comprehend my arguments, them travelling there within a day does not debunk a "walking" statement
like bro, it's really not that hard to understand

ill explain it very simple
Character A: mentions a distance with the specific travel speed of walking, that takes 10 days to reach
Character B: does not walk, runs towards the location and uses other movement methods, hence not being applicable to the "walking" statement as they did not walk

Hence the statement of character A remains valid.

Do you understand?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

said a whole bunch of nothing while ducking the core arguments


why do you keep ignoring these two lines? this is stonewalling

Nope, they were in a rush buddy, the situation was dire in both cases, you think yoruichi is not gonna factor in how much fast they can move at? hell I've also proved with Orihime & Uryu's case that they were not running, they (most) dont have shunpo either so that argument gets thrown out of the window. Orihime and Ganju also never displayed superhuman speeds in the series so she'd be assumed to have human travel speed, same with Hanataro who's fodder

His friends Chad, Orihime and Uryu reached the center of the Seretei from near the edge within the same timeframe, the latter two were under disguises, moving at a much slower pace to blend in avoiding most fights aside from Jiboro

 

[Hellscream]

said a whole bunch of nothing while ducking the core arguments


why do you keep ignoring these two lines? this is stonewalling

Bro i genuinely can't.



It does not matter if they were in a rush.
The measurement she spoke of is WALKING.
If they run or travel in any other way, the statement does not apply.

Ganju and orihime are superhuman, and are scaled to superhuman speed
Hanataro is a shinigami and is also superhuman

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bleach characters are normal humans for Las Noches but the flash for seretei? isn't that funny


Now Yoruichi's statement does not exclusively mean walking the context is important she follows up the 10 day statement by saying we don't have much time, she knows they can run as well & that would be encompassing of the running as well
Orihime has never ever showcased superman travel speed, Ganju did not either, we also KNOW orihime & Uryu could not run due to having to blend in and obey orders
Same with Hanataro he's a fodder with no superhuman speed feats, when he took ichigo down the underground tunnels they were not running either

 

[Hellscream]

Bleach characters are normal humans for Las Noches but the flash for seretei? isn't that funny


Now Yoruichi's statement does not exclusively mean walking the context is important she follows up the 10 day statement by saying we don't have much time, she knows they can run as well & that would be encompassing of the running as well
Orihime has never ever showcased superman travel speed, Ganju did not either, we also KNOW orihime & Uryu could not run due to having to blend in and obey orders
Same with Hanataro he's a fodder with no superhuman speed feats, when he took ichigo down the underground tunnels they were not running either

Reading comprehension of DOOM and Destruction

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

W duck +

if they all could get there by running in less than half a day might as well go around the seretei gates instead of taking this risky rocket to blast the gang inside the seretei lmao do you not see how this betrays logic

 

[Hellscream]

W duck +

if they all could get there by running in less than half a day might as well go around the seretei gates instead of taking this risky rocket to blast the gang inside the seretei lmao do you not see how this betrays logic

They did not have a day to spare, complete obliteration of the mind

I also explained to you that it takes less long to reach the center than it does walking across the edge, mind blown x2

 

[Arkenis]

No... I wouldn't say it's the height that messes with their perspective; it's the fact that it looks like a sky rather than the ceiling.

So we can look to real life for examples. When we look in the Sistine Chapel, you can tell its just paint, you can differentiate that the people are just painted people. Also Rukia's and Chad surprised by the skies thinking its real too.

Or the Würzburg Residence ceiling.

This is the difference here. They aren't surprised because it really looks like the sky, its the fact the height is so great that it leads them to believe it looks real. Otherwise, one look would tell them its just a painted ceiling.


Can the mods just decide on a compiling of ends? Regular human walking speed with breaks and without. Then superhuman with and without breaks? There's also the fact if it was 5km in diameter we'd be able to see the edges from anywhere. I know there's differences with how high you are that changes how far one can see yes? If we can't see the other palaces from one another that should make it clear the size is much wider. I'd say Szayelaporro's is a good start.

 

[Damage3245]

So we can look to real life for examples. When we look in the Sistine Chapel, you can tell its just paint, you can differentiate that the people are just painted people. Also Rukia's and Chad surprised by the skies thinking its real too.

Yeah... But the ceiling of Las Noches isn't just paint, lol. I don't think you're seeing what I mean with this but it's an irrelevant point in the grand scheme of things anyway. Uryu's surprise doesn't support 86+ km of height.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah... But the ceiling of Las Noches isn't just paint, lol. I don't think you're seeing what I mean with this but it's an irrelevant point in the grand scheme of things anyway. Uryu's surprise doesn't support 86+ km of height.

What else is special about it?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

They did not have a day to spare, complete obliteration of the mind

I also explained to you that it takes less long to reach the center than it does walking across the edge, mind blown x2

1) also mind you they dont need a whole 24 hours, they can use the same half day time that was needed anyway and skip the time consumed by breaks, fights, using the rocket etc, the extra saved up energy and stamina can also help towards better speeds too as fighting might drain your energy resulting in worse speeds

2) yeah it'll take one hour less to go in a B line, what you're saying does not chip off time needed by an order of magnitude that's 9 hours, why do you keep tiptoeing around this?

There's also the fact if it was 5km in diameter we'd be able to see the edges from anywhere.

about that.....

 

[Damage3245]

What else is special about it?

It looks like a literal sky with real sunlight and clouds on it; if it was a static image then they'd be able to tell that it's a fake ceiling.

 

[Arkenis]

It looks like a literal sky with real sunlight and clouds on it; if it was a static image then they'd be able to tell that it's a fake ceiling.

Oh when do we see the clouds move on it? I've forgotten a lot of Bleach but that makes sense if its some sort of digital display.

 

[Specterxxxx]

At the end of the day for every point you think you guys might have, there are always going to be valid arguments against it which is why using the visual arguments alone is a mess, why are you guys not understanding this? We are going to keep bringing up holes in your arguments, whether, it's the nel statement, narrative implications, other conflicting visual shots and basic logic. You cannot battle all this and think visuals are the superior interpretation

 

[Specterxxxx]

idk how many times we told you this but the statement does not remotely mean what you swear it means

Except what you swear it means is ridiculous when the author himself across multiple arcs SHOWS background shots are useless without a sense of scale, has an almost personal disdain for backgrounds and just sucks at proportions in general. I will take my chances using both the statement and the visuals that support it rather than just visuals alone

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

this is pretty late into the CRT, but taking a quick look at the Blog Post I think something to be pointed out is that Hueco Mundo's atmosphere doesn't work the same as our atmosphere. Hueco Mundo can't even be considered a globe as databooks even call it an "endless desert", thus trying to project Earth-like conditions onto Hueco Mundo does not work. It would make more sense to say that like having an "endless desert" it would have an endless atmosphere too.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Except what you swear it means is ridiculous when the author himself across multiple arcs SHOWS background shots are useless without a sense of scale, has an almost personal disdain for backgrounds and just sucks at proportions in general. I will take my chances using both the statement and the visuals that support it rather than just visuals alone

I interpret that as what it is aka just preferring not to do backgrounds when characters talk to not take away attention from them, that's not ridiculous, that's literally what he said
you take that and you stretch it into something else to mean **** art entirely and that the spreads showing the full structure is not to be used, that's reaching

At the end of the day for every point you think you guys might have, there are always going to be valid arguments against it which is why using the visual arguments alone is a mess, why are you guys not understanding this? We are going to keep bringing up holes in your arguments, whether, it's the nel statement, narrative implications, other conflicting visual shots and basic logic. You cannot battle all this and think visuals are the superior interpretation

likewise, im not accepting statements of stuff taking days when characters travel these distances in a half day's time

this is pretty late into the CRT, but taking a quick look at the Blog Post I think something to be pointed out is that Hueco Mundo's atmosphere doesn't work the same as our atmosphere. Hueco Mundo can't even be considered a globe as databooks even call it an "endless desert", thus trying to project Earth-like conditions onto Hueco Mundo does not work. It would make more sense to say that like having an "endless desert" it would have an endless atmosphere too.

the endless desert is a hyperbole, it has a moon and if the normal atmospheres are not at play surely you don't mind abstaining from all calcs from this arc as we don't know how the weird atmosphere & physics might affect calculations

 

[Agnaa]

Uhh no not really? There's many panels where human sized characters are blatantly visible neat the columns. Not as small specks or anything but with blatantly distinguishable features and whatnot. This is not a case of them just being visible as a small speck either to show where they are or that the panels are huge.

This would work if the characters were only visible as small specks but that's just not the case whatsoever.

Many? I'd say maybe three, and even there they are pretty damn small.

Other ones either don't show the full pillar (so we need to do curvature estimations, which are quite shoddy and give ridiculous results), or indeed show them as small specks.

Plus, these pillars only get to the size of LN as a whole by scaling through either this or this, going by the pillar diameter which is indeed only a few pixels.

I'm not, I'm against dismissing the visuals. I'm all for using the visuals.

You're saying they're unreliable. I'm just expecting consistency. Either they're too unreliable to use or not, you can't pretend they're unreliable when determining the size of LN but suddenly act like they're reliable when determining the size of a feat near LN.

Except they DO contradict it here. That's why YOU deemed them too inconsistent to use for the size measurements.

So if they're too inconsistent why would you use them for calculations? Either they're consistent and reliable or they're not. You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say they're too inconsistent to consider for size measurements but then say they're consistent enough for size measurements. Those are mutually exclusive opinions.

Yet you're arguing in favor of using the visuals of Las Noches to get the size of certain feats AND against using the visuals of Las Noches to get the size of it.

Either we use the visuals of Las Noches for size measurements or we don't. No in between

They're less reliable, so we're not using them when there's an alternative.

If there were other good ways to determine the key values for the feats, I'd be fine with using those instead.

But you're literally saying we should do that. YOU are saying we should disqualify the use of visuals when determining the size of Las Noches.

What I'm saying is that if we deem the visuals as inconsistent we shouldn't use them for calculations. Just like with everything we deem too inconsistent for size measurements.

"Completely disqualify" = "not use for anything".

I am doing the alternative I explicitly said I was doing earlier. Using the more reliable thing for information that it gives, and the less reliable thing otherwise.

What?

No clue why you'd say that statement was treated as a joke. That idea seems really out of left field to me.

---

Nnoitra was able of noticing Nel's de-aging and transformation despite the fact that he's above Las Noches and she's at the bottom.

I'm not familiar with Nnoitra's senses. What does this tell us about the distance?

• Ichigo and Ulquiorra manage to reach above Las Noches' canopy in seconds. It also takes a small time for Uryu and Orihime to reach it, seemingly few seconds to minutes at most.
• That hole that is created by Ichigo and Ulquiorra going above the canopy is pretty small, smaller than the pillars' width and not much larger than Ichigo and Ulquiorra. It is visible fron below to both Rudbon who is at the very bottom and Orihime and Uryu who are within the tower. We also later get another shot where the hole is visible from the ground below the palace.

I'm a bit confused by the scans here. Particularly in the second bullet point.

A lot of the album's scans have a lot of focus on a hole in the side of a pillar. It's hard for me to tell how the panels of the hole in the canopy relate to the rest of what's going on there.

Plus, I'm not sure where you're seeing the hole in this image. Is it the small white speck just above the pillar in the leftmost panel?

Ichigo's Cero creates this explosion which takes up a significant potion of Las Noches' roof. Yet we can see that Ulquiorra with half of his body gone managed to go outside of the hole created from its center in seconds.. And we can also see in that same shot that Uryu who is outside of the crater can view Ichigo who's at the center clearly.

Even if treating it as smaller, this seems like it requires Enhanced Senses, so I don't think it tells us much about size unless we have a limit on Uryu's sight.

We also get a shot that showcases both the width of that hole from the inside along with the height of Las Noches.

Are you saying that the beam extending down on the extended page has a width corresponding to the hole in the ceiling? Meaning that we can derive the height from that?

We know that the arc takes place in few hours, the majority of the events happen in less than an hour, due to Szayelaporro's statement that the time from the start of his fight with Uryu (An early event in the arc) to the arrival of the captains in Hueco Mundo (right before Ichigo's and Ulquiorra's fight) took less than an hour. We also have Grimmjow's statement that Ulquiorra would stay imprisoned for a maximum of 2 or 3 hours, confirming that the arc can't be much longer, since that caps the time between Ichigo's fights with Grimmjow and Ulquiorra at 3 hours. Keep in mind that essentially that whole period involved almost zero travel with purely fights, whenever the characters try to reach a location they do so in quickly as is the case with our characters reaching the pillars at the center in few minutes.

Also the travel speeds of the characters as portrayed shouldn't be absurdly and ridiculously above walking speed, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Renji to acknowledge the long time of travel after Nel's statement and it wouldn't make sense for Nel to mention the timeframe using walking considering that they used Bawabawa to reach Las Noches in the first place which Ichigo, Uryu and Chad were struggling to reach meaning Bawabawa should be faster for travel (she would have just said that it would take few minutes for them to reach the gate using him if the speed gap was that massive). The same Bawabawa was struggling to escape this hole of falling sand.

I'm not super familiar with the series' chronology and scaling, but this LN stuff seems to happen well after the Arrancar Arc, where Orihime has Hypersonic travel speed (or maybe the profile's structured badly? idk).

Putting that aside for now. The current diameter is 229km. If we say that it took them 3 minutes to cross the radius (to interrupt the conversation after the announcement), that would require 636 m/s travel speed, in the Supersonic range. If we scale that down to a 6km diameter, it'd need to be 17 m/s, modestly into the Superhuman range. So fair enough, that would only be a bit above human speeds.

I don't really understand what's happening with that falling sand scene. What's attacking them?

---

no problem, it's kinda hard to show scans for all parts as I'd have to post a boatload of scans for that but the gist ichigo and his whole friend group entered the seretei which is a circular structure, they all got split and shot near the edge (in ch85 iirc) from there onward he and his friends made there way to the centre of the seretei which rukia's castle is, all of ichigos friends more or less go towards the center and reach it despite taking fights in between so not even covering a whole day, the second scan, I'm using to show Orihime & Uryu were in disguises because this is an infiltration mission means they pretended to be one of their own and had to walk while in disguises to blend in very carefully, ganju and chad also made their way to the center similarly with the former character basically being a fodder, the last scan if you look in the second panel, this is a statement that was dropped when ichigo entered bankai training, their journey in the rukon district to Kukaku's house took 1 day, all the events of the seretei also took 1 day as it is the second day and then bankai training is listed the third day since they got into the soul society which mean a grand total of <1 day was taken for the journey while walking for all 5 members

Ah, so this page is from after the Seireitei portion had happened. Even though it's described as the originally planned timeframe, it's probably fair to say that's what the actual timeframe for that arc was.

Anyway, that still doesn't move me too much, since the Seireitei size estimations have other sources, so I'd really think it just indicates some degree of noticeably above human travel speed. Although tbf, with the size estimation, it doesn't actually need to be that far above, depending on how much rest there is. The radius of a circle is about 1.6x a quarter of its circumference. And the speed we use for getting distance from "time to walk" is already quite low. They'd need to be keeping up ~9m/s for a day, twice as much if they only travel for half the day, etc.

So we can look to real life for examples. When we look in the Sistine Chapel, you can tell its just paint

It would make more sense to say that like having an "endless desert" it would have an endless atmosphere too.

---

Also, I would still like someone to address Qawsedf's points from before:

Each of the Espada have castles and fortifications in Las Noches that aren't within visual distance of each other. In fact the place Rukia went to was the #9 Espada's castle and it was just an entire city

If there are at least nine castles, some of which are entire cities, and which aren't within visual distance of each other, then anything under like 20km diameter seems really hard to justify.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

if the normal atmospheres are not at play surely you don't mind abstaining from all calcs from this arc as we don't know how the weird atmosphere & physics might affect calculations

Okay then, let's do just that!

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Okay then, let's do just that!

Ah, so this page is from after the Seireitei portion had happened. Even though it's described as the originally planned timeframe, it's probably fair to say that's what the actual timeframe for that arc was.

yep the actual timeframes arent anywhere close to the stated ones

Anyway, that still doesn't move me too much, since the Seireitei size estimations have other sources, so I'd really think it just indicates some degree of noticeably above human travel speed. Although tbf, with the size estimation, it doesn't actually need to be that far above, depending on how much rest there is. The radius of a circle is about 1.6x a quarter of its circumference. And the speed we use for getting distance from "time to walk" is already quite low. They'd need to be keeping up ~9m/s for a day, twice as much if they only travel for half the day, etc.

what other source? the movie kubo supervised? we don't even know if kubo inserted that idea or if he believes that in the main canon or even took it seriously or that it carries his creative vision, that's genuinely just guessing and assuming, assumed shit wont cut it, not only is the movie canon, there's no proof that is what he believes or inserted
same with district method, they just forced a comparison with Japan and said they should have equivalent sizes when that does not necessarily need to be true, it's ultimately violating this rule, this is no different than saying "sth called a city must be city sized and since the author is from japan lets use tokyo as ref" so that's outta the window too, characters like orihime and uryu legit cannot run for it they have to suck up to the superiors and constantly ensure they are not the intruders and blend in properly & carefully so above human travel speed does not apply, walking speed is walking speed no matter the character so the additionally needed speed is to satisfy this is not present, more so when you factor in this which would include running in the original statement anyway

 

[Agnaa]

what other source? the movie kubo supervised? we don't even know if kubo inserted that idea or if he believes that in the main canon or even took it seriously or that it carries his creative vision, that's genuinely just guessing and assuming, assumed shit wont cut it, not only is the movie canon, there's no proof that is what he believes or inserted

Do you mean that the movie's known to be non-canon?

same with district method, they just forced a comparison with Japan and said they should have equivalent sizes when that does not necessarily need to be true, it's ultimately violating this rule, this is no different than saying "sth called a city must be city sized and since the author is from japan lets use tokyo as ref" so that's outta the window too

That's not anything close to what that rule means. We need calculations for most feats because they can be done in a variety of ways that could significantly change the value. Characters can destroy towns without creating a ground-based explosion that demolishes reinforced concrete buildings 1km away. We're still allowed to, and frequently use, references to real-life structures for these sorts of things.

Using Tokyo would be an outlier because Tokyo is an extraordinarily large city; it lies at the very upper bound of its reference class (that of cities). Why do you think that's the case for basing districts off of those in Japan, particularly for a work written by a Japanese author? Are Japan's districts 20x larger than those in other parts of the world?

characters like orihime and uryu legit cannot run for it they have to suck up to the superiors and constantly ensure they are not the intruders and blend in properly & carefully so above human travel speed does not apply, walking speed is walking speed no matter the character so the additionally needed speed is to satisfy this is not present, more so when you factor in this which would include running in the original statement anyway

I don't understand how that's helped by the place being smaller. No matter what the size of the place ultimately is, I don't think you'd contest that the interior walk is 1.6x shorter than the exterior walk. So either way, there's this contradiction where they probably could've run around the outside, instead of sneaking through the inside, and made better time that way.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If there are at least nine castles, some of which are entire cities, and which aren't within visual distance of each other, then anything under like 20km diameter seems really hard to justify.

• In Chapter 262 you see Rukia go to the Espada #9 Castle
• In Chapter 264 Gin shows that he manipulated Las Noches so that the groups all go to different areas
• In Chapter 282 you see Harribel and her crew watching Grimmjow from her castle and they're just surrounded by desert
• In Chapter 292 you see Szayelaporro's castle and it's not flanked by the other castles
• In Chapter 317 when Ichigo flies to the center where Aizen's place is, it's still surrounded by sand dunes without the other castles visible

Overall, like I said in my original comment, Las Noches has all the same issues that the Seireitei has in terms of visuals not matching character input and background information. Like I said, all of this and the next arc takes place over like two days, which is why everyone was rushing.

But having said that, I do agree that saying that visuals are bad and then scaling them up is just being hypocritical. I think the calcs involving Las Noches should be discarded, but events that are said to "destroy all of Las Noches" or something like the Lanza Being it's size are valid for scaling.