Lancer of Red (Karna) vs Lancer (Scáthach)

[ZeroOmar]

Well she wouldn't even be summoned as a servant if she didn't lose her immortality lol, but since the thread uses them "at their strongest" we gave it to her I guess.

 

[Nairoo_Jyu]

Why isn't it mentioned that Karna could prolly counter/negate Gate of Skye by firing Brahmastra Kundala at it? Compare it to Cu Alter's Curruid Coinchenn NP which Cu used in F/GO to counter Gate of Skye. Not only does Brahmastra Kundala exceed Cu's NP in rank and range, but also in pure destructive power.

Provided that Karna could negate Gate of Skye with Brahmastra Kundala he could still use Vasavi Shakti at another opportunity.

As mentioned before by ZeroOmar. Scathach isn't immortal due to being summoned in a Lancer Servant container. (she is mentioned as Lancer Scathach in the op).

I'm gonna have to go out on a limp and say that both characters should be granted infinite mana in this battle even as Servants. Especially due to the fact that Karna can't even fight at full power without the proper mana support as seen in Fate/ Extra CCC and CCC Foxtail. So not assuming that would mean that "both characters are at their strongest" can't happen.

As for the "instant kill" effect vs Kavacha and Kundala. The type moon wiki states that Karna's armor reduced 90% of all damage. Including that of conceptual effects such as an instant kill attack.

indeed. 10% of an instant kill isn't exactly an amazing equation, but you can't argue that the effect of being killed instantly upon hit dissipates when it's effect is reduced by 90%

 

[John985]

@Nairoo


It feels like you didn't read any Fate/Go Materials, Da Vinci can bypass the conceptual defence of Karna.

 

[ZeroOmar]

As far as I remember from tha materials Da vinci's noble phantasm is said to be an all-purpose gauntlet that can't be reduced by any defensive-type Noble Phantasm. ...but what does that have to do with scathash ? Karna's armor is considered hard to destroy even for the Kamigami, da vinci's np is a special case that counters any defensive np, heck it never actually clashed with Kavacha and Kundala for us to know whether it can truly bypass its conceptual defences or not and even if it can. Scathash has nothing like that and her gate of skye is completely different and (as I said before) weaker than BB's authority that couldn't bypass the armor's conceptual defences

And I guess since the thread is indeed using her as a lancer servant like Nairoo Jyu said, she can't have her immortality

 

[Solacis]

While I lean towards Karna, Scathach can maybe spam GBA to exploit his D rank Luck and at least wound him heavily, but Karna will probably learn to keep his distance and just nuke her after the first attempt. On the other hand, if Scathach knows she loses upon knock-out, she can likely give herself a crap ton of mental skills to prevent being knocked out regardless of damage; assuming she keeps her immortality; assuming her body isn't utterly destroyed with Karna's massive AP in comparison to her Dura.

Voting for Karna, overall.

EDIT: Is True Name Discernment a skill Scathach can make herself learn? If so, then I could see her maybe deducing Karna's abilities, sneak attacking with Presence Concealment and rush him with melee GB spam before he can recover. She does have a crap ton of Gae Bolgs.

Also, Gae Bolg's causality reversal most likely bypasses Kavacha and Kundala, since "piercing the heart" would come before "piercing the skin" upon activation, and since the armor only protects Karna's exterior the damage to his internal organs wouldn't be reduced. Worse comes to worst, she uses her multiple Gae Bolgs as broken phantasms to fry his insides in addition to piercing his heart.

Something to think about, unless I'm misunderstanding the technicalities of causality reversal.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So,what the current vote?

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

While I lean towards Karna, Scathach can maybe spam GBA to exploit his D rank Luck and at least wound him heavily, but Karna will probably learn to keep his distance and just nuke her after the first attempt. On the other hand, if Scathach knows she loses upon knock-out, she can likely give herself a crap ton of mental skills to prevent being knocked out regardless of damage; assuming she keeps her immortality; assuming her body isn't utterly destroyed with Karna's massive AP in comparison to her Dura.

Voting for Karna, overall.

EDIT: Is True Name Discernment a skill Scathach can make herself learn? If so, then I could see her maybe deducing Karna's abilities, sneak attacking with Presence Concealment and rush him with melee GB spam before he can recover. She does have a crap ton of Gae Bolgs.

Also, Gae Bolg's causality reversal most likely bypasses Kavacha and Kundala, since "piercing the heart" would come before "piercing the skin" upon activation, and since the armor only protects Karna's exterior the damage to his internal organs wouldn't be reduced. Worse comes to worst, she uses her multiple Gae Bolgs as broken phantasms to fry his insides in addition to piercing his heart.

Something to think about, unless I'm misunderstanding the technicalities of causality reversal.

I dont think she can spam GBA. Its take a lot of preparation and time to do it, also cost a big load of mana.

She dont have true name discrement since its a skill only for ruler. Her present itself is so strong that even in Assassin Class she only has E rank, i doubt she has it in lancer form.

Reverse causality is a technique made by Cu Chulainn and only he can do it. Scathacth has one but different. Instend a reverse causality, her trust freeze the space around her opponent and lock them (in gameplay she cast an absolute stun to her opponent), but the range is very limited, prob the same or lower than Cu's trust gae bolg

 

[Solacis]

Ah, I misunderstood the description of GBA, which says it combines Cu's two techniques. Turns out the melee part of GBA only freezes the opponent in space, and doesn't reverse causality. Whoops.

I was always confused by what "particular of certain heroes" meant when it comes to Wisdom of the Hallowed Ground. Is it restricted to personal skills and can't grant class-specific skills? Can it not grant her "burdens of the body" like Divinity? Can it not grant skills that came from a hero's specific story, like Dantes' Wisdom of Predicament? Or its it a combination of all of the above? Nasu really needs to be more clear about these things...

Anyway, my vote for Karna still stands regardless, so eh.

 

[-BANLK-]

This is probably the longest active versus match on this site.

 

[Schnee_One]

Not even close

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

I'd like to see the instance where Karna survives Cursed Cutting Crater, since it's used as an argument here.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Swag

BB never uses C.C.C. against Karna.

But after Karna's defeat, he should have been deleted by the Moon Cell. He holds on for an entire week to preserve Jinako's life before giving his armor's protection to her to allow her to escape the Moon Cell's deletion and authority and return to Earth.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

I know that, but I'm not sure others know that. And considering that our pages don't contain such explanations, people might start getting the wrong idea.

It is very important to understand that BB never used C.C.C. against Karna.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

Karna wins. Most of his weaknesses keep getting retconned one after another. At this point mana issues is the only problem he has.

 

[Solacis]

Necro