Lancer of Red (Karna) vs Lancer (Scáthach)

[-BANLK-]

Both are in character.

Godslayer.


Praise the Sun.

Both are at their strongest.

Both are 1 km apart.

Win by death or ko.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Oh god i'm smelling some steamy lancer class action *shot*

I thought you would put karna's quote saying: Weapons are boorish, A hero kills with a glare

Anyway what do each do IC? Idk each but mind as well participate

 

[Neofighter]

Raw power : karna > scathach

But since they are both fate characters and we know fate characters doesnt always mean stronger=victory... in fate there are counters and stuff.

Karna is almost invincible with armor on. Karna looses this armor after he shoots vasakti shakti. And as seen in fate apoc, abilities and noblephantasms that opens a world can stop vasakti shakti from murdering its target. (Achilles'np opened a mini world and caught vasakti shakti, and saved sieg and astolfo)

And we know karna becomes VERY vulnerable that sieg wielding astolfo's sword can stab him, the dead. Karna dead.

So, moving on to how scathach can do the same, except better. Scathach can use gate of skye, which opens the land of the shadows, and that is no "mini" world... and gate of skye has an insta death effect, survivng the insta death effect depletes your mana to zero. So, imagine what would a vulnerable, mana less karna do against a god slaying immortal witch...

So how will scathach know when to use the gate of skye? Simple...

Claivoryance, she uses this a lot to determine an outcome of a battle. She will know when and where karna will use vasakti shakti, so her timing with the gate will never fail.

And since you refer to them as lancer, I would assume that they are in their servant form, specifically lancer classed servant. So, we know karna is VERY costly in mana. And scathach can use all skills(except rank ex skills and skills that are unique to a particular hero) and she can definitely use independent action(possible independent manesfitation as well as she appeared in front of mashu and protag without being summoned) anyway, inde action should do the trick. Ad she isnt as costly as karna. So she has more mana supply than karna. And in character, they are most likely not gonna go all out right away. We see that karna went easy on vlad, and when he fought sieg, it took a while before he finally uses vasakti shakti. We see that sieg can withstand or evade karnas regular attacks, and i think its safe to say scathach can also withstand or evade karna's regular attacks. So karna will use his vasakti shakti just like what he did to sieg, but scathach will know this because of claivoryance and instinct skill A, and will use gate of skye to catch vasakti shakti, then karna becomes vulnerable and drained in mana, if not then gate of skye will drain him of mana if it doesnt kill him.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Red

That's one of his Noble Phantasm quotes. I put it in the NP page above Brahmastra.

 

[Schnee_One]

Unless Karna can bypass Type 8 I think Scathatch has a higher chance here.

 

[ZeroOmar]

in close combat the advantage is probably for karna since his mana burst flames is just so destructive for scath to deal with, the only reason sieg managed to keep up with him in their final battle was probably thanks to balmung spam and scath doesn't seem to have something like that, also she can't hurt him at all while his armor is active unless she resorts to noble phantasm(which he proably can survive like he survived cu alter's gae bulg even without having his armor) and karna has way more firepower to the point where he destroyed a world encompassing shield that can't be destroyed by anything other than Ea so overall I'll give it to karna

I think we also shouldn't forget that statement from apocrypha material "During the great battle in the second volume, Lancer of Black's repeated attacks weren't half-hearted at all, and any other Lancer besides Karna wouldn't have been able to withstand it." I believe the material was released after scathash and enkidu's debut in the franshise so "any other lancer" applies to them too that just shows how ridiculously strong karna's armor is and if scath can't withstand vlad's attacks then she won't be able to withstand karna's

@Neofighter
dude you make gate of the skye sound like avalon with your explanation even Ea would be blocked by it that way and it wasn't implied to be used as a defensive noble phantasm before

 

[Neofighter]

No it isnt a defensive one. We just know that opening a world will stop vasakti shakti from reaching its target, just like what achilles' np did as seen in fate apocrypha. Gate of skye opens up a world too.

 

[Neofighter]

As seen in fate apocrypha, achilles' np did that but the shield itself is not what stopped vasakti from reaching its target, as the shield got destroyed, but the world that was opened contained vasakti shakti u til the shield got destroyed

 

[Reppuzan]

@Neo

I don't get your point. The expanding world is the shield.

 

[Neofighter]

According to typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/akhilleus_kosmos, the shield is able to stand most attacks by deploying a mini world.

And what I meant by "the shield itself" I meant the object astolfo was holding.

But one thing for sure, if you cannot stop vasakti shakti by force, a world can contain it. Gate of skye opens the land of the shadows, and insta kill anyone nearby, and if you survive the insta kill, it takes away your mana.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Neo

Which is the Shield's activation as s Noble Phantasm. The shield itself is just something to hold it with.

Vasavi Shakti is powerful but it's not unstoppable.

I know how Gate of Skye works.

 

[ZeroOmar]

@Neo

I get your point but gate of skye wasn't implied to be used for defence at all, heck if it can be used that way scath would be cabaple of blocking any attack by sending it to the land of the shadows and she never did this before

the instant kill effect should be negated by karna's armor since it can negate conseptual attacks too. the point is I just can't see scath surviving vasavi shakti at all when she almost got killed by cu alter's gae bulg

 

[Neofighter]

She didnt almost get killed by cu's gae bolg. It was another noble phantasm currid something its called. And cu says that that is the only noble phantasm he has that can punch a hole in scathach's gut.

During their fight, cu alter vs scathach, they were throwing gae bolgs but the gae bolgs were cancelling each other out. Meaning, a grail powered gae bolg is just about equal to gae bolg alternative.

And a grail powered gae bolg killed karna in one shot. So gae bolg alternative can do the same.

 

[Neofighter]

And I might have misunderstood how gate of skye works, and the only thing we have seen get thrown in the gate is herself so far.

Insta kill, not sure if karna can survive it, his armor only resist 90% of the attack. He will still take 10% of the insta kill. But insta kill is like an infinite amount of damage, since its supposed to instantly kill anyone

 

[Neofighter]

And besides, scathach's gae b8lg alternative can reach A++ or A+++.

Gae bolg alternative is B+ rank. According to typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Noble_phantasm, gae bolg's rank can increase up to A by using runes. So now gae bolg alternative is A, and scathach can use most A rank skills, mana burst is one of them. Rank A of mana burst can double an attack power or more. And according to typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/parameter_rules, a lower rank can surpass higher rank, an example it gave is B+ surpassing rank A, which makes it A+. This surpass B++, B+++ and A.

Summation: gae bolg alternative rank B+ plus runes equals gae bolg rank A, plus mana purst equals gae bolg rank A++ or A+++. And karna's armor can only handle A+ rank noble phantasm.

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

Karna is superior in many way.

His armor reduce any attack by 90% and combined with his Mana Burst (Flame), not even an A+ noble phantasm can harm him.
He has 3 nuke noble phantasm, even his skill make his attack become a nuke power.
Exquisite spearmanship that reach the realm of gods, so high that he can make his B rank STR become A just with his pure spearmanship and strenght.
Higher Regenerationn ability compare to other average servant, at least as fast as normal servant Regenerationn + healing magecraft.
Unlogical asspull Indian willpower, make him still stand against Hakuno's servant to the point he look like a zombie in Gilgamesh's eyes in CCC or survive from sun buff A+ Excalibur Galatine in worst condition and without armor in CCC Fox Tail or survive from Cu Alter's B++ Gae Bolg only with his sun boost defence and still manage to unleash weakened Vasavi Shakti in FGO (Didnt use it in Apo)

The reason why Sieg manage to match him is because
- Armor of Fafnir (nullfied B or lower attack and even make A STR equal to E)
- Galvasim boost (incresed his Siegfried's physical parameter stats, incresed both his combined homonculus Regenerationn ability and servant Regenerationn ability, and gain an ability to re-fill his mana instantly)
- Spamming A+ Balmung non-stop (In the LN, Sieg tried to unleash Balmung as quick as possible to counter Karna's destruction power. The anime just didnt do it well)
- Achilleus Cosmos (to counter Vasavi Shakti)

Scathatch has none of these, even if her Wisdom of the Abbys give her the same ability like galvasim, she cant do it at full potensial like Sieg.

As a servant, Scathatch lose her immortality. Every time she mentioned about her immortality and such, she always use past tense in japanese language.
Not to mention she almost died from Cu Alter's noble phantasm and also said she could died with a single strike if Li Shuwen manage to hit her. Laking a powerful mystery such as noble phantasm to justify her immortality is another reason why she dont have such ability anymore.

Scathatch only chance is to use Gate of Skye to drag Karna in, but Karna has B rank MGI and the result is pretty much like Saber vs Gae Bolg.

Overall, Karna take this fight

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

And besides, scathach's gae b8lg alternative can reach A++ or A+++.
Gae bolg alternative is B+ rank. According to typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Noble_phantasm, gae bolg's rank can increase up to A by using runes. So now gae bolg alternative is A, and scathach can use most A rank skills, mana burst is one of them. Rank A of mana burst can double an attack power or more. And according to typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/parameter_rules, a lower rank can surpass higher rank, an example it gave is B+ surpassing rank A, which makes it A+. This surpass B++, B+++ and A.

Summation: gae bolg alternative rank B+ plus runes equals gae bolg rank A, plus mana purst equals gae bolg rank A++ or A+++. And karna's armor can only handle A+ rank noble phantasm.

In Extella material, Mana Burst is categorized as personal skill. Unlike Imperial Privilege, Wisdom of Abbys cant use any personal skill so Mana Burst is out.

Even is she can do it for the sake of argument, Mana Burst was never used as a boost for noble phantasm. There is no such thing from Arthuria, Modred, or Arthur mention it. Karna and Arjuna is exception because the nature and description from their noble phantasm (Even Bryn who has the same skill with Karna cannot do it)

Futhermore, saying Scathach's Gae Bolg can reach a firepower equal to A++ is like saying its power almost equal to EA. In FSN VN and FGO material, EA output is equal or higher than Excalibur. Its totally impossible it can reach something like A+++

In America, Scathach' Gae Bolg and Cu Alter's Gae Bolg cancel each other. There are many dialogue in previous chapter mention that Cu Alter is out of league and Scathach will go all out against him. Therefore, Scathach's Gae Bolg maximum power output is B++ (a little stronger tahn A+)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The Scathach wank is really real here........

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The Scathach wank is really real here........

 

[ZeroOmar]

She didnt almost get killed by cu's gae bolg. It was another noble phantasm currid something its called. And cu says that that is the only noble phantasm he has that can punch a hole in scathach's gut.
During their fight, cu alter vs scathach, they were throwing gae bolgs but the gae bolgs were cancelling each other out. Meaning, a grail powered gae bolg is just about equal to gae bolg alternative.

And a grail powered gae bolg killed karna in one shot. So gae bolg alternative can do the same.

Cu alter had to backstab Karna using that gae bulg and karna still survived and used a weaker Vasavi shakti, but in a direct fight without backstabing you think Karna will just stand there and let Cu or Scathach use gae bulg on him? in a direct fight Scathach will have to survive a full powered Vasavi shakti that can destroy an expanding world, if the attack can kill a being like Sypher it should be cabaple of defeating Scathach.

It doesn't matter what Cu alter used to beat her. the Apo material states that any other lancer besides Karna can't withstand Vlad's attacks in roma therefore she shouldn't be able to withstand Karna's

 

[Promestein]

"the Apo material states that any other lancer besides Karna can't withstand Vlad's attacks in roma"

Clearly hyperbole

 

[ZeroOmar]

I honestly though it's not much of an exaggeration when it makes sense because no other lancer possesses a defence like kavacha and kundala, maybe I shouldn't have taken it literally

my vote still goes for Karna for the other reasons tho

 

[Schnee_One]

How does he get past Type 8 again?

 

[ZeroOmar]

How does he get past Type 8 again?

I believe like BLACKWATHERRR said she loses her immortality as a servant, otherwise a noble phantasm weaker than Vasavi Shakti like Curruid Coinchenn wouldn't have made her almost die and lose 90% of her organs without destroying the land of the shadows

 

[John985]

Look at the op it was stated at their strongest, so type 8 is still a thing.

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

Look at the op it was stated at their strongest, so type 8 is still a thing.

If we use Scathacth in her strongest form which is her immortal spirit, then we also must use Karna in his Heroic Spirit form which not only his lancer class but also his archer and rider class combined

Servant vessel limit their power by dividing them into class system...

 

[John985]

He has no showing of his Heroic Spirit form, unlike Scathacth.

 

[ZeroOmar]

Yet scathash still can't beat Karna, the reason cu alter managed to kill him with gae bulg was because he backstabbed him, if scathash tries to use gae bulg he would simply use mana burst flames to vaporize her, push her back, and stop her form getting close, and if she uses gate of Skye he would survive the mana check and the instakill effect thanks to his armor, so honestly even if she has her immortality, I think the worst case scenario for karna would be a stalemate

 

[John985]

Kavacha Kundala isn't almighty you know, it was stated in Davinci Fate/Go Materials that her NP can bypass his.

 

[ZeroOmar]

It's not, it can block a balmung blast and stronger beams when used with mana burst flames but my point wasn't even about the armor , you see the only reason sieg managed to keep up with him was spamming balmung while scathash doesn't have an A+ noble phantasm that she can spam in order to deal with his destructive casual attacks fused with mana burst, so I think she wouldn't win as long as karna doesn't get gae bulged like in America and keep using mana burst to push her away whenever she tries to get close and use it. Of course that depends on them having infinite mana in this fight and the op doesn't specify whether they do or not but since we're using them at their strongest and allow scathash to have her immortality I assumed they do.

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

Kavacha Kundala isn't almighty you know, it was stated in Davinci Fate/Go Materials that her NP can bypass his.

Yes, Kavacha Kundala is not almigthy, like other immortality its has a weakness of its own

The problem is, Scathacth dont have any method or np to bypass his armor. All her attack will reduce to 90% and even more lower if Karna combined it with his Mana Burst(Flame) Also, nothing stated in the material that her 2 np can bypass Kavacha Kundala

 

[Neofighter]

Gate of skye can defeat Karna. Like gae bolg, it delivers an insta kill effect. I do not know what will happen if you subtract 90% from an insta kill. Instakill doesnt really have any specific amount of damage. Its like limitless, it simply kills the target. Limitless minus 90% is still limitless. It can be resisted by having high luck and mana. Karna's luck isnt good, its only rank D. His Mana is okay, which is Rank B. If and only if Rank B is enough for karna to survive Gate of skye's insta death effect, his mana will be rapidly drained to zero and take a huge amount of damage(now this can be subtracted by 90%, as it is no longer instakill). Not much he can do without any mana against a god slaying immortal scathach. Some say gate of skye is slow and can be easily interrupted, like what Cu did. Well all attacks can be interrupted, but gate of skye wasn't interrupted by Cu. Gate of skye was infact unleashed, which swallows both scathach and Li shuwen(who was probably stalking scathach, he survive because scathach allowed him to(According to typemoon wiki, scathach can allow access to targets)) so its clear that it was unleashed, as it affected two servants in the area. Cu was unaffected despite being in range. How? Its the same reason how he was unaffected or barely affected by Nero's NP. The grail power. This gives him infinite mana, high mana means he can survive insta kill effect. Infinite mana means no matter how rapid it drains his mana, it will not run out. Gate of skye is rank A+. Runes might even make it stronger.

Also karna cannot maintain mana burst for more than 10 seconds. Also, if he uses vasakti shakti, scathach will know when he will use this due to clayvoriance. Scathach can throw herself into gate of skye(which will also affect karna) then come back. Just like what she did in america singularity, except it took her a while to come back because she was damaged. Then if she comes back, karna will have no armor and mana. And he would want to avoid using vasavi shakti against scathach, as she has clayvoriance. Last thing he wants is to loose his armor when gate of skye is open. Even if he hits scathach, he will loose his armor and die. Also, Vasavi shakti has a lower range than gate of skye(Vasavi = 2~5, while gate of skye is 2~50). So it is impossible for him to both shoot vasavi and stay out of range of gate of skye.

So how can he defeat immortality type 8, without using vasavi? As using it does NOT guarantee victory. He could succeed, but scathach clayvoriance is in the way so he might hit scathach and die from gate of skye(resulting in draw, if scathach somehow dies), or just die from gate of skye without hitting scathach. Also, his armor dismantles FIRST before the launch, so he might not even be able to launch it and gate of skye kills him already. Or gae bolg can also do the trick when his armor is gone. So If Karna knows what scathach can do, it would be best to avoid using vasavi and keep his armor as scathach has a couple of insta kill effect in her arsenal(and agian, my point earlier about instakill subtracted by 90%). but what can defeat immortality type 8 now?

 

[Neofighter]

so lets say instakill is somehow not instakill anymore when you subtract 90% from it(Doesnt make sense but lets say it does that)in events he uses vasavi, he looses his armor before the launch, which leaves him vulnerable to gate of skye which has longer range and gae bolg alternative. Mana burst only last 10 seconds which depletes his mana terribly, so he wouldnt wanna spam that. His Brahmasta is the only NP he can use without worrying about instatly dying off. It will chase scathach and surely hit her. But its range is 1~10. Gae bolg alternatives and gate of skye still has better reach than Brahmasta and vasavi. Brahmastra Kundala can only be utilized if vasavi is used and Kavacha and Kundala is destroyed. Both vasavi and bahmastra kundala can never be launched without kavacha and kundala's destruction. Loosing kavacha and kundala leaves him very vulnerable to a point where astolfo's blade can slay him.

 

[ZeroOmar]

Karna's armor protected him from BB's anti world noble phantasm and the moon cell authority, which is much more hax than gate of skye's "instant kill" also karna's mana is enough to allow him to survive it so he will only get mana drained by10% of its original value thanks to his armor, also he doesn't need to destroy his armor in order to use brahmastra kundala he can spam it while having his armor on, he did it in apocrypha and he keeps doing it in extella, and its conceptually bound to hit its target, that's why its an anti country np so I doubt keeping distance would work for scathash if she wants to avoid getting vaporized

You're allowing scathash to have her immortality which she lost and restrict them from having infinite mana Which is a disadvantage for karna alone? How do you plan on using them at their strongest without allowing karna to go all out like he does in apo volume 5 ?

Karna soloed altera's faction in his side story in extella which means that he defeated gil who has a clairvoyance superior to scathash and he even said in tamamo's story that his chance against gil would be 50/50, clairvoyance doesn't guarantee victory if your opponent is stronger and superior in raw power, otherwise she would've predicted that gate of Skye won't work on cu alter

So overall I am still giving it to the one with superior nps and skills (karna)

Inconclusive if she has type 8 immortality tho

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

Karna's Mana Burst(Flame) last 10 second because his master cant support him anymore, he can still can spam his fire magic as long he has mana.

Scathacth never shown the same level of destruction with Karna, who can destroy a platue with just a single swing with his MB(F). Easily destroy everything around him when he fighting with Sieg and capable to summon many lighting spear which cause more destruction power. Unless she can atleast do this with her Primordial Runes, i cant see that she can match Karna toe to toe.

Clairyovance doesnt gurenteed you to know every single move your opponent will make. We have Chiron and Arash who also has the same or even higher tier of Clairvoyance than Scathatch yet both of them still get ****** up. Despite having a high level Clairvoyance, Scathatch failed to saw Cu Alter's np attack.

You do realize that Karna still destroying everything around him when he fusing his armor with his spear. Sieg(fried) still stand because his body is protected by Armor of Fafnir and super Regenerationn from his healing magecraft and galvaism.

Even if Scathach has her immortality, her body still can be destroyed thus she can't do anything than wait to fully regenerate (she wait for days to regenerate from Cu Alter's np and she still not fully recovered). That count as lose to me.

 

[ZeroOmar]

I just noticed the thread states that win is by death or K.O so if karna knocks her out with any of his nps and she takes time to regenerate it would be his win

 

[Schnee_One]

@BLACK she comes back in basically no time, that's not a loss.

 

[ZeroOmar]

Uh, scathash's durability is mountain level... and vasavi shakti is strong enough to inflict extinction on a being who can survive the heat of a star (sypher), so even with her immortality are we really sure she would take that attack and stay in one piece? I mean vasavi shakti is said to be strong enough to kill "immortal" Kamigami from the first age of gods when they still had authority, so I think it would be strong enough to knock her out at the very least

And even then I think vasavi shakti SHOULD be capable of killing her because it removes all impurities to kill immortal beings on a higher scale than scathash in the first place but since we are not sure I'll stick with brahmastra or VS knocking her out

 

[Schnee_One]

Durability has legit nothing in relation to type 8.

Also I'm not sure how literally vaporizing someone is going to KO them over killing them, Brahmaputra is ridiculously over the required capacity to KO her.

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

Ohh wait Extella Link confirmed that Scathacth is indeed not immortal. She died in one of the route, killed by Cu