Kyojuro Rengoku vs Roronoa Zoro

[K4yshey1]

Zoro has resistance to Fire and Heat manip(although Rengoku shouldn't deal fire damage, since the fire in the Fire Breathing Technique isn't actually there).
Rengoku also has resistance to pain.

Besides inteligence(since Zoro is a "Combat Genius", and Genius>Gifted) and the amount of swords, Zoro doesn't have much going for him. Also, what's the distance? Zoro has more range than Rengoku.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Also, what's the distance? Zoro has more range than Rengoku.

Is the range for Zoro ranged attacks.

 

[SlendVeny]

Zoro does have regen, and though it won't do much in early combat, he regens quickly enough that it will eventually help.

 

[Mickey1940]

That's false. Rengoku is only "Gifted" in intelligence according to the profile, Zoro is "Combat Genius". Unless a CRT is performed for alteration, Zoro is objectively the most intelligent and skilled here.

Zoro's intelligence in this key comes from him surpassing several dojo's worth of combatants with his 3 sword style, as well as mastering 1 and 2 sword styles as well. All of his other skill feats haven't actually happened yet so it's not applicable to BoS Zoro
Rengoku's intelligence comes from fighting on par with Akaza, who did the same thing Zoro did when he was still human. They're really not that far apart. Both have their respective masteries in their own sword styles, both have been training since childhood, and both are capable of toppling entire swordfighting schools by themselves. Saying that Zoro bodies simply because the wiki labels them as different is ignoring the actual feats

Insignificant.

The AP advantage is not insignificant. Refer to the chain I mentioned above:

Rengoku fought equally against Akaza, who's far stronger than Hantegu/Zohakuten, who should be stronger than Swordsmith Village Arc Marked Tanjiro as Tanjiro was hopeless agaisnt him, who's base form is comparable to Entertainment District Arc Marked Tanjiro, who is 100 times stronger than his base form, who killed Enmu, who's far stronger than Rui, who's far stronger than the Spider Demon Father, who's 0.008 tons
meaning that Rengoku should scale far beyond 80 tons by a colossal margin

Zoro can fight against Luffy, who barely defeated Arlong, who casually defeated Sanji, who's 113 tons

their AP is not that far apart. Rengoku might actually have the edge due to the longer scaling chain

there are several 1 shot worthy gaps in this scaling chain that I didn't calculate since it's not needed to prove my point

Rengoku has no resistance to pain in his profile. As for the comparison, Zoro was still able to continue fighting Mihawk even after being severely punctured. I don't remember any damage that Rengoku suffered close to that.

Stamina: Superhuman (Pillars can train for several months on end. Superior to Tanjiro who endured extremely taxing training for seven days non-stop with no food, no sleep, and only a small amount of water from rain, later drained for even greater stamina, was also getting injured frequently during the training session. Far superior to Inosuke who can hunt for 3 days. Comparable to fellow Pillars who fought Lower Moon-level demons in the Dimensional Infinity Fortress for nearly 5 hours on top of fighting Upper Moons. In his Special One-Shot, Kyojuro ruptured his eardrums, yet didn't flinch in the slightest, ignoring the pain and continuing to fight and win. In Kyojuro Rengoku's Story, he suffered dozens of severe wounds and injuries from gunshots and explosions coming from the former Lower Moon 2, Hairo, but continued to stall enough time for all the bombs he planted to be disarmed without showing any signs of pain or fatigue, which shocked Hairo, who questioned himself on whether the person he met in the past was really the same person he was fighting now. Furthermore, his battle against Enmu when he fused with an entire train, he was able to keep him at bay in 5 different train carts without tiring.
Lastly, he managed to keep up with Akaza, one of the strongest demons in existence despite physically and mentally exert himself beyond his limit and sustaining multiple irreparable and fatal wounds, like a smashed eye, shattered ribs and damaged internal organs. Most impressively, he managed to keep Akaza at bay despite having his vital spot, his Solar Plexus, pierced by the Upper Moon's arm and bleeding out. Despite all of his fatal wounds and injuries, he never once flinched or showed signs of pain or agony)

Not to mention, this is BoS Zoro, who hasn't done that feat yet. Even if you calculate that feat into the mix by using Arlong Park Zoro, the scans you provided include Zoro getting stabbed in the chest, and then immediately giving up by letting Mihawk slash him in the chest. That's not a good stamina or pain feat

Why should Rengoku scale to Tanjiro's feat?

cuz Rengoku needed to have had to experience the same thing or something of equal intensity in order to use breathing styles in the first place

Zoro resists.

No he doesn't
Zoro resists Heat Manipulation
Rengoku uses Perception Manipulation
He doesn't literally burn people, therefore Zoro doesn't resist

Zoro fights with at least 3 swords and still has other "spare" swords with him, and he has enough mastery to block a 8-sword combo attack. Rengoku has never shown himself capable of avoiding being cut by an opponent who uses more than a sword.

Beating someone with 6 swords (not 8, 2 of his tentacles are his legs) sounds impressive at first glance until you realize that the 6 sword user isn't particularly strong or skilled compared to literally anyone in both One Piece or Demon Slayer. I can beat up a toddler with 2 swords without a weapon of my own. It's not a particularly noteworthy skill feat. The amount of swords isn't ever going to be relevant in any vs battle since both combatants are intelligent, skilled, and adaptable in their own right

Not to mention, if you really want to go there, Rengoku nearly beat someone with 2 fists and high mid regeneration with just 1 sword.

 

[Mickey1940]

Zoro does have regen, and though it won't do much in early combat, he regens quickly enough that it will eventually help.

that's not relevant when you're pitting hypersonic+ characters who can slash each other in half against each other. Recovering wounds after days isn't going to help you here

 

[SlendVeny]

Beating someone with 6 swords (not 8, 2 of his tentacles are his legs) sounds impressive at first glance until you realize that the 6 sword user isn't particularly strong or skilled compared to literally anyone in both One Piece or Demon Slayer. I can beat up a toddler with 2 swords without a weapon of my own. It's not a particularly noteworthy skill feat. The amount of swords isn't ever going to be relevant in any vs battle since both combatants are intelligent, skilled, and adaptable in their own right.

Zoro was jumping around and clowning on this guy while feverish and bleeding out. He literally jumped on top of his swords and ran around.

 

[Mickey1940]

Zoro was jumping around and clowning on this guy while feverish and bleeding out. He literally jumped on top of his swords and ran around.

you're proving my point
Hatchan isn't a skilled swordsman

 

[SlendVeny]

you're proving my point
Hatchan isn't a skilled swordsman

Pretty sure he explicitly said he could outskill any human he'd seen.

 

[Mickey1940]

Pretty sure he explicitly said he could outskill any human he'd seen.

he's seen a couple of regular ass pirates, and it's not hard to outskill cannon fodder when you have 6 arms

not to mention that's a NFL

 

[SlendVeny]

he's seen a couple of regular ass pirates, and it's not hard to outskill cannon fodder when you have 6 arms

not to mention that's a NFL

How is that the National Football League?

 

[Fezzih_007]

How is that the National Football League?

Wow.

 

[Mickey1940]

How is that the National Football League?

NLF

my b

typo

I'm american, I have muscle memory

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'm voting for Rengoku as well for the reasons above.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Just wanna clarify a thing, Kyojuro actually does have a form of Fire and Heat manipulation exclusively with his Ninth Form

 

[TauanVictor]

Rengoku FRA I guess.

 

[Mickey1940]

Just wanna clarify a thing, Kyojuro actually does have a form of Fire and Heat manipulation exclusively with his Ninth Form

It's still not listed as fire manip in his profile

at bets it would be heat manip

 

[SlendVeny]

NLF

Makes even less sense, since my statement wasn't an NLF.

 

[AThe1412]

Makes even less sense, since my statement wasn't an NLF.

To be fair, I don't think he can outskill someone like say... Mihawk.

 

[LordGinSama]

To quote Deceived "I'll comment later."

 

[SlendVeny]

To be fair, I don't think he can outskill someone like say... Mihawk.

He hasn't met Mihawk

 

[AThe1412]

He hasn't met Mihawk

It doesn't matter anyway since Zoro beats him and Mihawk humiliates Zoro with a dining utensil.

 

[Shmooply]

To quote Deceived "I'll comment later."

Don't quote bureaucrats, you might accidentally notify and summon them.

 

[SlendVeny]

It doesn't matter anyway since Zoro beats him and Mihawk humiliates Zoro with a dining utensil.

Mihawk would wipe Rengoku with a pine needle, what does this have to do with anything?

 

[AThe1412]

Hang on. Didn't Tanjiro defeat a 6 armed puppet thing that was designed to replicate a fraction of the skill of the most skilled character in the verse? (Yeah, it was during Swordsmith Village Arc where he wasn't Hashira level yet). And Rengoku is superior to Tanjiro so shouldn't he upscale from that?

 

[Nierre]

currently 0-5 in rengoku's favor

 

[SlendVeny]

Here's half-dead Zoro dodging 6 attacks and attacking a comparable character at the same time, with two of his swords not even being his own:

Of note is the fact that Hatchan uses a special sword style that utilizes his 6 arms and flexible body at the same time.

He can also:
-Dodge attacks he can't even see
-Grow stronger at a higher rate
-Fire pressurized air slashes
-Easily analyze techniques and weapons, even telling a sword was cursed just by looking at it.
-Rush through flames unaffected.
-Increase his travel speed as he attacks with Onigiri?
-Defeat two somewhat comparable foes at once
-Utilize Three Thousand Worlds, which is seemingly stronger than normal attacks.
-Block with some of his swords as he attacks with others.
-Fight 2 comparable guys, one of them in a 1v1, then get hit by a guy way stronger than him,, then take on all of Luffy's pain and stay standing.
-Blitz with Iai attacks.

 

[Deceived3596]

To quote Deceived "I'll comment later."

You better comment now, it's been 13 days

 

[Mickey1940]

Here's half-dead Zoro dodging 6 attacks and attacking a comparable character at the same time, with two of his swords not even being his own:

Of note is the fact that Hatchan uses a special sword style that utilizes his 6 arms and flexible body at the same time.

He can also:
-Dodge attacks he can't even see
-Grow stronger at a higher rate
-Fire pressurized air slashes
-Easily analyze techniques and weapons, even telling a sword was cursed just by looking at it.
-Rush through flames unaffected.
-Increase his travel speed as he attacks with Onigiri?
-Defeat two somewhat comparable foes at once
-Utilize Three Thousand Worlds, which is seemingly stronger than normal attacks.
-Block with some of his swords as he attacks with others.
-Fight 2 comparable guys, one of them in a 1v1, then get hit by a guy way stronger than him,, then take on all of Luffy's pain and stay standing.
-Blitz with Iai attacks.

1. As previously stated, Hacchan is a dogshit swordsman compared to almost every other character we've seen in the series. He claims to be able to "outskill any human he sees", which is very obviously bullshit and was meant as one of the "ha ha I'm a fishman and fishman are stronger than humans" trope we've seen time and time again in One Piece. Rengoku has very obviously superior skill feats compared to Hacchan
2. Rengoku > Mitsuri, who could dodge attacks from Muzan, who was casually blitzing everyone during the final fight to such an extent that she couldn't perceive his attacks, with her instinctual reaction
3. This isn't significant enough to really give Zoro an edge in this fight, as it's only really been used against Daz Bones, and even then he didn't get a direct stat buff, he just unlocked Buso Haki, not to mention Rengoku's AP is either not very far behind Zoro's at all, or vastly superior to Zoro's depending on how you look at the scaling chain. Heck, Doma while poisoned and half dead was able to shit out a 70 ton feat, which is over half of what Zoro is capable of. Not to mention, Rengoku can temporarily match any buff Zoro gets with his own Awakened Power, which allowed Rengoku to overpower and nearly behead a bloodlusted Akaza without using his breathing, despite him losing previously to a rather casual Akaza beforehand and receiving multiple injuries and an arm through his torso,
4. Zoro can't do this in this key
5. How is that going to help him here? And how is that better than Rengoku's Extrasensory Perception
6. 9th Form basically does the same thing, as he blitzed Akaza from several meters away with it
7. Rengoku once again doesn't use fire, he uses perception manip, which Zoro doesn't resist
8. you mean the cat brothers? the 2 fodder who Zoro fended off by himself with 1 sword while also being distracted in order to protect Nami and Usopp? The cat brothers who needed to be hypnotized in order to keep up with him, only for Zoro to get his other 2 swords back and bodying them later?
9. He can't use that in this key
10. that's not particularly impressive. I guess that's what's to be expected from his sword style, but that won't necessarily give him a notable advantage, especially since he's fought numerous other opponents with fewer swords/weaponry before and he still gets pressured sometimes despite his inherent advantage
11. Zoro's resilience won't really help him if he loses a limb or gets cleaved in half, meanwhile Rengoku's clothing provides resistances to sharp/slashing attacks, meaning unless Zoro powers through it completely (which is difficult due to the AP similarities), he's going to be more vulnerable to severe damage compared to Rengoku
12. Once again, 9th form basically does the same thing

 

[LordGinSama]

1. As previously stated, Hacchan is a dogshit swordsman compared to almost every other character we've seen in the series. He claims to be able to "outskill any human he sees", which is very obviously bullshit and was meant as one of the "ha ha I'm a fishman and fishman are stronger than humans" trope we've seen time and time again in One Piece.

Uhhhh what? No that's not the case in the slightest. Hacchan is not a dog shit swordsman, not sure where the hell you got that from outside of sheer downplay. Hacchan is directly stated to be a better swordman than most humans due to extra limbs and how agile and fluid the movements with said limbs are, making his strikes un-predictable and nearly unavoidable by attacking at all directions at once.

Rengoku has very obviously superior skill feats compared to Hacchan

You literally hasn't proven that. You simply said Rengoku is more skilled without posting actual feats of skill.

2. Rengoku > Mitsuri, who could dodge attacks from Muzan, who was casually blitzing everyone during the final fight to such an extent that she couldn't perceive his attacks, with her instinctual reaction

Rengoku is not >>>> Mitsuri. She's one of the fastest Hashira, with Shinobu being the fastest. Also that's a speed thing, not a skill feat. She also has shit like See Through World so again, not a skill feat.

3. This isn't significant enough to really give Zoro an edge in this fight, as it's only really been used against Daz Bones, and even then he didn't get a direct stat buff, he just unlocked Buso Haki

Mickey just stop it. Goken is durability negation and Analytical Prediction, it isnt Buso Haki. Two completely different things. Air slashes are also something different from Buso, Air Slashes are a result of the Goken swordsmanship style.

, not to mention Rengoku's AP is either not very far behind Zoro's at all, or vastly superior to Zoro's depending on how you look at the scaling chain.

Going by numbers Zoro is still stronger.

Heck, Doma while poisoned and half dead was able to shit out a 70 ton feat, which is over half of what Zoro is capable of.

Which isnt quantifiable.

Not to mention, Rengoku can temporarily match any buff Zoro gets with his own Awakened Power, which allowed Rengoku to overpower and nearly behead a bloodlusted Akaza without using his breathing, despite him losing previously to a rather casual Akaza beforehand and receiving multiple injuries and an arm through his torso,

Rengoku needs to be on the verge of death before he can use Awakened Power.

4. Zoro can't do this in this key

Zoro can, the feat was literally from East Blue pretty early on.

6. 9th Form basically does the same thing, as he blitzed Akaza from several meters away with it

9th form isn't a speed amp.

7. Rengoku once again doesn't use fire, he uses perception manip, which Zoro doesn't resist

Which is irrelevant since they still leave behind similar effects to what they're using. Zoro resists the effects of heat so even if Rengoku doesn't use real fire he's still leaving heat behind which Zoro resists.

11. Zoro's resilience won't really help him if he loses a limb or gets cleaved in half, meanwhile Rengoku's clothing provides resistances to sharp/slashing attacks, meaning unless Zoro powers through it completely (which is difficult due to the AP similarities), he's going to be more vulnerable to severe damage compared to Rengoku

Zoro was willing to cut off his own legs to keep fighting and got half way through them with no ill effect.

 

[Mickey1940]

Uhhhh what? No that's not the case in the slightest. Hacchan is not a dog shit swordsman, not sure where the hell you got that from outside of sheer downplay. Hacchan is directly stated to be a better swordman than most humans due to extra limbs and how agile and fluid the movements with said limbs are, making his strikes un-predictable and nearly unavoidable by attacking at all directions at once.

You literally hasn't proven that. You simply said Rengoku is more skilled without posting actual feats of skill.

Rengoku is not >>>> Mitsuri. She's one of the fastest Hashira, with Shinobu being the fastest. Also that's a speed thing, not a skill feat. She also has shit like See Through World so again, not a skill feat.

Mickey just stop it. Goken is durability negation and Analytical Prediction, it isnt Buso Haki. Two completely different things. Air slashes are also something different from Buso, Air Slashes are a result of the Goken swordsmanship style.

Going by numbers Zoro is still stronger.

Which isnt quantifiable.

Rengoku needs to be on the verge of death before he can use Awakened Power.

Zoro can, the feat was literally from East Blue pretty early on.

9th form isn't a speed amp.

Which is irrelevant since they still leave behind similar effects to what they're using. Zoro resists the effects of heat so even if Rengoku doesn't use real fire he's still leaving heat behind which Zoro resists.

Zoro was willing to cut off his own legs to keep fighting and got half way through them with no ill effect.

1. Which is why I stated this to be a NLF since he claims himself to be superior to most humans when every other human swordsman in the series has shown better skill feats due to either defeating, upscaling from, or being comparable to either the main cast of their respective arcs or a similarly skilled/powerful enemy. Hacchan's only feat was keeping up with Zoro who at the time only had one sword, had several gaping gashes across his chest from Mihawk, and was exhausted from the events of that day, only to get 1 shot once Zoro had more swords. Hacchan's page on this wiki also doesn't do him any favors
Hacchan is a comparatively unimpressive swordsman compared to the vast majority of the verse, so using Zoro's feats against him isn't a good skill feat. He has a bevy of other feats, but you guys seem to gravitate around this one the most, which doesn't make much sense to me
2. Man surpassed his dad by reading a couple of books, and was consistently severely injuring Akaza, who solo'd 67 Kendo users by himself when he was alive, and only survived due to his regeneration. He's also vastly superior to the likes of Tanjiro, Zenitsu, and Inosuke, who are some of the strongest and most skillful in their respective breathing styles among non-Hashira Demon Slayers, even this early in the series.
This certainly sounds more skilled than a dude with 6 arms and 300kg swords that basically uses 2 moves, one of which points all 6 swords at someone and charges headfirst into them, and the other that is literally described on the wiki as "swinging his swords wildly at his opponent while charging at them".
3. Rengoku is Mitsuri's teacher, and his feats against Akaza are better than MARKED Mitsuri against Hantegu. If you want to remove Mitsuri's Instinctive Reaction from her profile, make a CRT
also she doesn't have See Through World, where did you get that from? And even if she did, that allows the user to see organs, that doesn't help anyone with dodging anything.
4.

• Busōshoku Haki (Color of Armaments): Zoro can utilize an application of Armament Haki known as Mighty Blade swordsmanship (Goken) which allows him with his swords to cut through the thickest steel when he wishes and at the same time for it not the cut the thinnest of paper. To do this he senses the "Breath" of what he wishes to cut or not cut. When sensing the "Breath" of something he can know the trajectory of it's movement before it happens as well as it's location despite not being visible to him. By doing so he can determine the speed, power and angle of where he should cut. Then by conveying his will into his sword, it allows him to achieve his desire to cut through things he otherwise couldn't with strength alone.

this is what he unlocked against Daz Bones
Not to mention Zoro doesn't get ranged attacks until Skypiea, which isn't the key being used
5. Except if you read the scaling chain I provided, Rengoku is vastly above 80 tons (several 1 shot worthy gaps between several steps in the chain), vs Zoro's 113 ton feat. Zoro's really not that much stronger, at bare minimum Rengoku's only less than 50% weaker, and Rengoku has blatant mid battle amps via Awakened Power while Zoro doesn't in this key
6. And why wouldn't that be applicable in this fight?
7. Pressurized Air Slashes aren't unlocked for him until Skypiea where he invented 108 Pound Phoenix. He can't use that in this key
8. I'll concede on this point, I thought Rengoku blitzed Akaza with it. Regardless, this doesn't give him a power amp, and even if he managed to land the move, it'll be extremely difficult to one shot Rengoku with it, not only due to the lack of a x7 difference in power, but also Rengoku's aforementioned outfit resisting slashing effects
9. Once again, no, that's not what happens. Demon Slayers don't have elemental manipulation, and although they can technically use heat using their Nichirin Blades and the Red Blade techniques, Rengoku's Fire Breathing directly ***** with people's senses to feign heat without actually emitting it. he doesn't use the Red Blade techniques, and he can still cause the sensation of burning regardless. Therefore, it still works on Zoro since it bypasses his heat resistance.
10. But a person... can't fight... without legs?
you're missing my point
it doesn't matter if you survive a hit if said hit leaves you incapacitated physically. When Zoro took Luffy's pain, he still has incredible pain tolerance and all of his limbs intact, so therefore he could have theoretically kept fighting if he was fighting someone at the time. However, if he gets bisected at the waist, there's really nothing either of them can do, regardless of how much of the pain they can ignore. I'm not trying to downplay Zoro's pain resistance, I'm saying that no one can fight with significant portions of their body missing.

 

[Nierre]

Yes Hatachan is generally unimpressive in the grand scheme of things. His skills would not get him very far in the Demon Slayer verse at all, let alone a Pillar.

If I haven't already (I forgot) I'll vote for Rengoku FRA

 

[SlendVeny]

1. Which is why I stated this to be a NLF since he claims himself to be superior to most humans

That has nothing to do with you saying he's fodder. You're like Basil Hawkins here, you keep using the same Straw Man against Zoro.

 

[LordGinSama]

1. Which is why I stated this to be a NLF since he claims himself to be superior to most humans when every other human swordsman in the series has shown better skill feats due to either defeating, upscaling from, or being comparable to either the main cast of their respective arcs or a similarly skilled/powerful enemy.

Again this argument doesnt work. It's not a no limits fallacy whenever that statement is only applicable to the swordsmen we've seen thus far in the series for Hacchan to compare to. The statement is in reference to his advantage of being a fish-man that allows him to wield swords more effectively than most humans due to cephalopods having brains in each limb that act independently from one another, allowing for unmatched flexibility and unpredictability. Excluding Mihawk of course.

Hacchan's only feat was keeping up with Zoro who at the time only had one sword, had several gaping gashes across his chest from Mihawk, and was exhausted from the events of that day, only to get 1 shot once Zoro had more swords. Hacchan's page on this wiki also doesn't do him any favors.

That's a feat for Zoro, not an anti feat for Hacchan.

Hacchan is a comparatively unimpressive swordsman compared to the vast majority of the verse, so using Zoro's feats against him isn't a good skill feat.

Hacchan isnt an unimpressive swordsman, this is absolute downplay of his skill. He's directly stated to have been the most skilled fishman in terms of swordsman untill the time skip.

He has a bevy of other feats, but you guys seem to gravitate around this one the most, which doesn't make much sense to me.

It's more so what Zoro did rather than Hacchan's scaling. Dodging through every possible direction a sword can strike at while half dead and injured then break dancing on an opponent unleashing a volley of sword slashes with 8 separate limbs, each of which can react independently is a very valid skill feat for Zoro.

2. Man surpassed his dad by reading a couple of books, and was consistently severely injuring Akaza, who solo'd 67 Kendo users by himself when he was alive, and only survived due to his regeneration.

Zoro literally did the same shit at his Dojo and various other dojo's as a child. Let's not act like Zoro doesn't have the same shit going on.

He's also vastly superior to the likes of Tanjiro, Zenitsu, and Inosuke, who are some of the strongest and most skillful in their respective breathing styles among non-Hashira Demon Slayers, even this early in the series.

Early Series Tanjiro isn't at at remotely close to the top of the skill hierarchy that's actually funny. Blud had to be be trained to even use a sword effectively. Inosuke isn't exactly a skilled swordman either, his entire thing is using strength to overpower shit.

This certainly sounds more skilled than a dude with 6 arms and 300kg swords that basically uses 2 moves.

It doesnt use 2 moves, what? He's a cephalopod, each limb acts independently.

one of which points all 6 swords at someone and charges headfirst into them, and the other that is literally described on the wiki as "swinging his swords wildly at his opponent while charging at them".

While half dead, with incredible blood loss and still skill stomped the same dude that's the best swordman on fishman Island with 6 separate brains for each limb to act independently and moves in a very unpredictable manor.

3. Rengoku is Mitsuri's teacher, and his feats against Akaza are better than MARKED Mitsuri against Hantegu.

Rengoku being her teacher is irrelevant, they use two different breathing styles and Mitsuri by the time she went against Muzan had more than enough time to surpass what Rengoku had taught her.

If you want to remove Mitsuri's Instinctive Reaction from her profile, make a CRT.

I never said she didn't have Instinctive Reaction so miss me with that CRT shit blud.

also she doesn't have See Through World, where did you get that from? And even if she did, that allows the user to see organs, that doesn't help anyone with dodging anything.

Fair enough.

4.

• Busōshoku Haki (Color of Armaments): Zoro can utilize an application of Armament Haki known as Mighty Blade swordsmanship (Goken) which allows him with his swords to cut through the thickest steel when he wishes and at the same time for it not the cut the thinnest of paper. To do this he senses the "Breath" of what he wishes to cut or not cut. When sensing the "Breath" of something he can know the trajectory of it's movement before it happens as well as it's location despite not being visible to him. By doing so he can determine the speed, power and angle of where he should cut. Then by conveying his will into his sword, it allows him to achieve his desire to cut through things he otherwise couldn't with strength alone.

this is what he unlocked against Daz Bones
Not to mention Zoro doesn't get ranged attacks until Skypiea.

Nope not true, he had ranged attacks way before Skypiea. Skypiea just gave him more range. Furthermore that's just correct as it's accepted that Goken and Buso aren't the same.

which isn't the key being used.

Which is irrelevant as he still has it.

5. Except if you read the scaling chain I provided, Rengoku is vastly above 80 tons (several 1 shot worthy gaps between several steps in the chain), vs Zoro's 113 ton feat.

Scaling chains dont effect actual number values.

Zoro's really not that much stronger, at bare minimum Rengoku's only less than 50% weaker, and Rengoku has blatant mid battle amps via Awakened Power while Zoro doesn't in this key

You mean the Awakened Power that needs to have him nearly die? It's not something that he can suddenly muster up.

7. Pressurized Air Slashes aren't unlocked for him until Skypiea where he invented 108 Pound Phoenix. He can't use that in this key.

Bullshit.

8. I'll concede on this point, I thought Rengoku blitzed Akaza with it. Regardless, this doesn't give him a power amp, and even if he managed to land the move, it'll be extremely difficult to one shot Rengoku with it, not only due to the lack of a x7 difference in power, but also Rengoku's aforementioned outfit resisting slashing effects.

The effects of the slashing would be less effective against something stronger than it's durability.

9. Once again, no, that's not what happens. Demon Slayers don't have elemental manipulation, and although they can technically use heat using their Nichirin Blades and the Red Blade techniques, Rengoku's Fire Breathing directly ***** with people's senses to feign heat without actually emitting it. he doesn't use the Red Blade techniques, and he can still cause the sensation of burning regardless. Therefore, it still works on Zoro since it bypasses his heat resistance.

It's not bypass his heat resistance if all it is is perception manipulation. That doesn't make it better than resisting the actual phenomenon.

10. But a person... can't fight... without legs?
you're missing my point

It's anime boss, and considering Zoro had long ranged attacks he could have still fought.

it doesn't matter if you survive a hit if said hit leaves you incapacitated physically. When Zoro took Luffy's pain, he still has incredible pain tolerance and all of his limbs intact, so therefore he could have theoretically kept fighting if he was fighting someone at the time.

Buddy if Kuma did the same to Rengoku his soul would leave his body. Not even sure why your mentioning this.

However, if he gets bisected at the waist, there's really nothing either of them can do, regardless of how much of the pain they can ignore. I'm not trying to downplay Zoro's pain resistance, I'm saying that no one can fight with significant portions of their body missing.

That's death yeah, nobody is saying otherwise.

 

[Mickey1940]

Again this argument doesnt work. It's not a no limits fallacy whenever that statement is only applicable to the swordsmen we've seen thus far in the series for Hacchan to compare to. The statement is in reference to his advantage of being a fish-man that allows him to wield swords more effectively than most humans due to cephalopods having brains in each limb that act independently from one another, allowing for unmatched flexibility and unpredictability. Excluding Mihawk of course.

That's a feat for Zoro, not an anti feat for Hacchan.

Hacchan isnt an unimpressive swordsman, this is absolute downplay of his skill. He's directly stated to have been the most skilled fishman in terms of swordsman untill the time skip.

It's more so what Zoro did rather than Hacchan's scaling. Dodging through every possible direction a sword can strike at while half dead and injured then break dancing on an opponent unleashing a volley of sword slashes with 8 separate limbs, each of which can react independently is a very valid skill feat for Zoro.

Zoro literally did the same shit at his Dojo and various other dojo's as a child. Let's not act like Zoro doesn't have the same shit going on.

Early Series Tanjiro isn't at at remotely close to the top of the skill hierarchy that's actually funny. Blud had to be be trained to even use a sword effectively. Inosuke isn't exactly a skilled swordman either, his entire thing is using strength to overpower shit.

It doesnt use 2 moves, what? He's a cephalopod, each limb acts independently.

While half dead, with incredible blood loss and still skill stomped the same dude that's the best swordman on fishman Island with 6 separate brains for each limb to act independently and moves in a very unpredictable manor.

Rengoku being her teacher is irrelevant, they use two different breathing styles and Mitsuri by the time she went against Muzan had more than enough time to surpass what Rengoku had taught her.

I never said she didn't have Instinctive Reaction so miss me with that CRT shit blud.

Fair enough.

Nope not true, he had ranged attacks way before Skypiea. Skypiea just gave him more range. Furthermore that's just correct as it's accepted that Goken and Buso aren't the same.

Which is irrelevant as he still has it.

Scaling chains dont effect actual number values.

You mean the Awakened Power that needs to have him nearly die? It's not something that he can suddenly muster up.

Bullshit.

The effects of the slashing would be less effective against something stronger than it's durability.

It's not bypass his heat resistance if all it is is perception manipulation. That doesn't make it better than resisting the actual phenomenon.

It's anime boss, and considering Zoro had long ranged attacks he could have still fought.

Buddy if Kuma did the same to Rengoku his soul would leave his body. Not even sure why your mentioning this.

That's death yeah, nobody is saying otherwise.

1. Well at this point in the series we've seen zero swordsman besides Zoro himself and a few kids who were training in Zoro's hometown. It's still not anything particularly noteworthy, and it's a stretch to claim that he's a better combatant compared to other pirates before this section of the story. He's certainly stronger due to the weight of his swords and his ease of swinging them, but seeing what he's capable of, he's really not that skilled outside of his natural biology. He's essentially flailing them around like a madman. Rengoku and Zoro as well as any other skilled individual, can easily bypass this (with sufficient enough physical strength and speed, of course). Heck, Zoro treated him as a waste of time in the clip you sent me.
2. Yes it's a feat for Zoro, but it's just not very good one due to Hatchan's not good skill
3. Hatchan is the ONLY fish swordsman we've seen at this point in the series, which isn't saying much
4. It's also entirely possible that Zoro's just faster/smaller and can block blows easier with those advantages. Sure, blocking 6 swords with 1 is impressive, but that doesn't mean he's going to have an advantage over anyone with less swords. The ONLY advantage Hatchan has over literally any other fodder character in the verse is the number of arms he has.
5. I know he did that. Therefore their skill is comparable.
6. Mugen Train Tanjiro is superior to basically every other Demon Slayer by virtue of being able to do ANYTHING against the Spider Demon Family, when countless others failed to accomplish anything despite them being able to utilize breathing techniques. He got further training after that. Rengoku is vastly vastly VASTLY superior to that Tanjiro.
7. His first move is swinging wildly, his second move is a 6 armed thrust. Yes, his 6 arms act independently, but the dude's not an actual swordsman, he's just swinging like a berserker 99% of the time.
8. Mitsuri's breathing style is derived off of Rengoku's and her feats are inferior overall. Ripping off Muzan's arm isn't anything impressive when A. that's the only contribution she provided, and B. the likes of Zenitsu and Inosuke were also able to injure Muzan, and both of them individually are weaker than the likes of Marked Giyu and Marked Tanjiro, who struggled against Akaza, whom Rengoku fought off and nearly killed on his own. Rengoku should scale at least on par with her's and other demon slayers's level of instinctive reaction. He literally has it on his profile
9. He's never shown this on screen besides using Tatsumaki, which isn't a ranged attack, and Taka Nami, which is pathetic and used against groups of vastly inferior enemies. All of his other ranged attacks are locked behind other keys. So no, he doesn't have any relevant ranged attack he can use here
10. Except the scaling chain includes several explicit x100 multipliers from Tanjiro's Demon Slayer Mark, so yes it does
11. It's something he has when approaching death, something Zoro doesn't have, and can still nab Rengoku the win, since these 2 are close enough in skill and power that they could wound each other to that extent
12. See point 9
13. It's still a layer of resistance regardless, and provides Rengoku something that Zoro doesn't have. Zoro will take the full brunt of any attack Rengoku throws at him, and he can't harden his skin with Haki like in later keys.
14. ?????? Rengoku's "heat" is completely different compared to what Zoro is resistant against, so why would Zoro resist what Rengoku has?
15. Rengoku's pain tolerance is nothing to scoff at. He shrugged off all of his injuries from Akaza with no visible reaction, he's vastly superior to BoS Tanjiro who trained for 7 straight days with no food, sleep, and rainwater, while also being clobbered by logs and traps at all times. A younger Rengoku in his previous key survived having his eardrums shattered, several gunshots and explosion wounds from Hairo without flinching at all, and bought enough time to disarm all of his bombs. Not to mention, Zoro doesn't have that stamina feat yet. This key of Zoro got folded like an omelet after a couple of slashes in the chest.

 

[LordGinSama]

Mickey for the love of God learn how to use paragraphs. Responding to all this shit when it's clustered up is literally hurting me on a spiritual, emotional and mental level.


Responding to arguments that are clumped up like that makes it that much more difficult to read it and reply.

 

[LordGinSama]

Except the scaling chain includes several explicit x100 multipliers from Tanjiro's Demon Slayer Mark, so yes it does

This isn't even accepted btw. Actual wank.

 

[Mickey1940]

This isn't even accepted btw. Actual wank.

Demon Slayer Page:
The 8-C's like Post-Rehabilitation Training Marked Tanjiro are scaled to be 100x the 9-A Spider Demon Father (0.8 Tons)

Tanjiro's Page
At least Small Building level (Fought Enmu who was enhanced by Muzan Kibutsuji's blood), higher with Constant Flux, even higher with Hinokami Kagura (Can somewhat keep up with Base Daki), Building level with Demon Slayer Mark (Struck with a hundred times his normal strength to overpower Gyutaro and slice off his head) | Building level (Was stated to have surpassed the level he was on when he fought Gyutaro. Capable of fighting Hantengu’s emotion clones), Multi-City Block level with the Demon Slayer Mark (Easily overpowered and cut off three of Hantengu’s emotion clones' heads. Can also cut the real Hantengu's neck)

TLDR Tanjiro's Demon Mark is a x100 boost, his base in Swordsmith Village is as strong as his Demon Slayer Mark from the last arc (Post Rehab Training/Entertainment District Arc Marked Tanjiro), and he can use his Demon Slayer Mark again on top of his Demon Slayer Mark level base

so Swordsmith Village Arc Demon Slayer Mark Tanjiro is x100 stronger than 0.8 tons, or 80 tons

Rengoku is FAR stronger than that due to matching Akaza, who far surpasses Zohakuten, who is Hantegu's strongest emotion clone and therefore stronger than Hantegu himself, whom Marked Tanjiro struggled to behead

not to mention, Post Rehab Training/Entertainment District Arc Tanjiro is far far FAR stronger than the Spider Demon Father since he could slice Rui's strongest threads and nicked his neck, and Rui is far stronger than the Spider Demon Father

so Rengoku is VASTLY above 80 tons

 

[LordGinSama]

When was the 100x figure ever accepted? I'm looking through the edit history and I can't find the thread that accepted the 100x amp.

 

[Mickey1940]

When was the 100x figure ever accepted? I'm looking through the edit history and I can't find the thread that accepted the 100x amp.

the profile itself supports it. There's no justification whatsoever across the entire wiki or series for Tanjiro's 8C bsides scaling to Gyutaro for beheading him, but Gyutaro has no calcs tied to his profile either

Gyutaro's profile:
Attack Potency: At least Building level (He is the true Holder of the Position of Upper Rank Six and much stronger than his sister. Managed to fight Tengen Uzui and Post-Rehabilitation Tanjiro Kamado at the same time and overwhelm them. Tanjiro needed a hundred times more than his usual strength, and awaken his Demon Slayer Mark, to cut his neck off. Despite the fact that he was decapitated, Gyutaro was still capable of creating long-ranged tornados of razor sharp blood that decimated the surroundings with ease severely, injuring and maiming Tengen, Tanjiro, and Inosuke, and would have likely killed them if it wasn't for Nezuko's own unique Blood Demon Art saving them. Muzan said that Daki was holding Gyutaro back and that Gyutaro would've killed Tengen, Tanjiro, Nezuko, Zenitsu, and Inosuke all by himself if he had been the one fighting from the beginning)

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm aware it's in the profile but a thread was never made for it, thus it should be removed. I'll make a CRT about the 100x amp to remove it so this thread can be paused.