Kyogre's Roar downgrade

[Kepekley23]

I remember that in the Adventures Manga Primal Groudon and Kyogre destroyed fragments of the 5-B meteor, but were overwhelmed shortly after.

Oh yeah. This is a hilarious anti-feat, considering they were instantaneously KO'd back into base when the small fragments of the meteor actually hit them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Base forms are High 6-A. They're not going to High 6-B

 

[GyroNutz]

High 6-A was debunked above

 

[Kepekley23]

The actual thread disagrees.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I heavily disagree with said debunk.

 

[GyroNutz]

@Kep are you responding to me, or Cal?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Me

 

[Kepekley23]

Assuming there's no other feats, they'll be downgraded to either 'At least High 6-B, possibly 5-B' or 'At least 6-B, possibly 5-B'

Heavily disagree with a possibly 5-B considering the feat isn't KE thus it can't be 5-B.

We should just wait until they get better feats and scale them to the low-end, in spite of the lack of better options.

 

[Xerkser500]

As do I.

And i'll begin covering the other stuff that can save the Primals 5-B rating in a minute.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Primals aren't 5-B. That's end of story.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Kep are you responding to me, or Cal?

Cal, of course.

5-B is false. A small fragment of the 5-B meteor knocked them out so hard they reverted to base.

 

[GyroNutz]

Heavily disagree with a possibly 5-B considering the feat isn't KE thus it can't be 5-B.

We should just wait until they get better feats and scale them to the low-end, in spite of the lack of better options.

The 'possibly 5-B' has nothing to do with the storm, it's because Primal Groudon harmed Mega Rayquaza in the mega evolution special. If that's debunked by other feats though, that's fine

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait I never said I agreed with 5-B. I mean, I hate CAPE and I think its implementation was unwarranted, but with it innplace, they're no longer 5-B for sure.

 

[Kepekley23]

Can anyone provide a scan of Primal Groudon harming Mega Rayquaza?

As I said above, since High 6-A ignores the timeframe then they just aren't High 6-A based off of their "rising continents and evaporating oceans" feat.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, there is no timeframe. Of course, that may or may not support my argument but there is no timeframe for their feats.

 

[Kepekley23]

There is no exact timeframe, but we know it sure as heck took entire battles. That's the whole thematic of Kyogre vs. Groudon. An endless battle that gradually ruins the world's surface. It definitely isn't a second or a minute.

 

[GyroNutz]

@Kep here.

Couldn't find a non-AMV version, so apologies, but this shows the feat.

 

[Kepekley23]

That's a feat. Although we also have a direct anti-feat to contrast it considering Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre were instantly knocked out after being hit with fragments of the 5-B meteor that Rayquaza busted.

 

[Xerkser500]

5-B is false. A small fragment of the 5-B meteor knocked them out so hard they reverted to base.

This is false. Like, very very false.

I re-read the chapter for full context and Groudon and Kyogre were never de-primalized because of the meteor fragments hitting them. It was because Archie and Maxie vanished to nothing, who have a conntection with the 2.

 

[Kepekley23]

Very false? They were knocked out instantaneously. I missed one detail that's not even relevant to the anti-feat.

 

[Dark649]

If i recall Mega Groudon and Kyogre were powered up by Maxie and Archie using the spheres [Both seemed confident to bust it], however since they previously died, they were given a new body for a period of time and using the spheres for the Mega forms drained them of their remaining time, which affected and reverted the Legendary Pokémon.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, we know how Kyogre performs his ocean expansion - he creates storms which rain down endlessly...ie, the very storm that was calculated here and isn't High 6-A. The Pokédex states it multiple times. It isn't High 6-A.

Neither is Groudon's feat done with High 6-A methods, it is done gradually through two different methods, evaporating water and using underground magma to expand the lands. The Pokédex also says this. In fact, Groudon's powers were stated to be able to insta-evaporate rivers and lakes - conveniently it doesn't mention him instantaneously evaporating seas and oceans.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

5-B needs to go.

I'll still contest anything happening to High 6-A.

 

[Xerkser500]

If i recall Mega Groudon and Kyogre were powered up by Maxie and Archie, however since they previously died, they were given a new body for a period of time and using the Mega forms drained them of their remaining time, which affected the Legendary Pokémon.

This.

Archie and Maxie in the past absorbed the red and blue orbs into their bodies, and by doing that, they became connected with Kyogre and Groudon. Both were overflowed with tremendous energy and both fought each other, leading to Maxie winning. After Archie lost to him, he was sent to the Distortion World, followed by Maxie losing at the Battle Frontier. Both existed as forms of "consciousness" or something on a molecular level, and both became one.

After Dialga and Palkia fought Giratina to get it to open a portal to the outside world, a voice called out to Archie and Maxie and they went through the portal, becoming the Omega Ruby and Alpha Saphirre counterparts. They ended up in the Johto region and the same voice told them that they had to learn about Mega Evolution, return to Hoenn, reobtain the orbs and become one with Groudon and Kyogre again.

Both explain this before they completely vanish into thin air and the 2 pokemon de-primalizing.

 

[Kepekley23]

• "Terrible… So this is what was being depicted in that painting in Granite Cave. If this doesn't stop, all Hoenn—no, the entire world—will burn up"

This statement is made in-game about the AP of Groudon's heat which was what allowed him to make the continents in the series' lore. It is very gradual and it'd take a while to make the world "burn up.'

This is as close of a timeframe we will get and it isn't High 6-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Something tells me that says more for Giratina than it does for anyone else.

 

[Xerkser500]

So no, Groudon and Kyogre were never brought back to base from their Primal Forms because of meteor fragments.

It was because of Archie and Maxie dying, who have a connection to those 2.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just do it. I'm not gonna win this one.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Xerkser

And that is still not relevant to the overall point, the point being that they were knocked out cold by fragments of the 5-B meteor, regardless of whether it made them revert to base or not. It still shows them to be <<<5-B.

 

[Xerkser500]

Also, Primal Groudon doing that to Mega Rayquaza is not the only feat they pull of in their battle in the Mega Evolution special.

-Mega Rayquaza actively saw fit to enter the battle to stop them immediately Mega Evolved, which shows how strong the 2 are in relation to Mega Rayquaza

-Mega Rayquaza's Draco Meteor did no notable damage to either of the Primals

-Primal Groudon's Ancient Power attack visibly overwhelms Mega Rayquaza briefly and does minor damage; im guessing this is the staggering feat already mentioned so if it is, ignore it.

-Primal Kyogre is hit and pushed by Mega Rayquaza's hyper beam at point blank range and remains unscathed

-Primal Groudon's Precipicipe Blades briefly traps Mega Rayquaza and catches it in an explosion

-Mega Rayquaza is actively required to use its signature move, Dragon Ascent, to defeat and De-Primalize Groudon and Kyogre. Something that its ordinary moves failed to do.

At least 5 different feats of the Primals comparing to Mega Ray.

 

[Xerkser500]

@Xerkser
And that is still not relevant to the overall point, the point being that they were knocked out cold by fragments of the 5-B meteor, regardless of whether it made them revert to base or not. It still shows them to be <<<5-B.

Archie and Maxie were already shown to be dying before this happened, so no, this isnt an Anti-feat period.

 

[Dragopentling]

Also, Primal Groudon doing that to Mega Rayquaza is not the only feat they pull of in their battle in the Mega Evolution special.
-Mega Rayquaza actively saw fit to enter the battle to stop them immediately Mega Evolved, which shows how strong the 2 are in relation to Mega Rayquaza

-Mega Rayquaza's Draco Meteor did no notable damage to either of the Primals

-Primal Groudon's Ancient Power attack visibly overwhelms Mega Rayquaza briefly and does minor damage; im guessing this is the staggering feat already mentioned so if it is, ignore it.

-Primal Kyogre is hit and pushed by Mega Rayquaza's hyper beam at point blank range and remains unscathed

-Primal Groudon's Precipicipe Blades briefly traps Mega Rayquaza and catches it in an explosion

-Mega Rayquaza is actively required to use its signature move, Dragon Ascent, to defeat and De-Primalize Groudon and Kyogre. Something that its ordinary moves failed to do.

At least 5 different feats of the Primals comparing to Mega Ray.

I wouldn't say they were unscathed by the non-Dragon Ascent attacks, but yea, they tanked them fairly well. I honestly think Kyogre and Groudon should keep at least keep the 5-B key for "being able to easily harm someone or something of the same tier", though imo, the key should be like this: "5-C, likely 5-B". Just my suggestion, that's all.

 

[Schnee_One]

Why 5B and 5C? We already went over both

 

[Dragopentling]

Hurting someone who can destroy a planet buster isn't a feat?

 

[Schnee_One]

It isn't when it doesn't exist.

No one has yet to bring up Kyogre hurting Rayquaza to Kep

 

[GyroNutz]

I showed the video where Primal Groudon harmed Rayquaza already. It's here, if you haven't seen it.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yet again Gyro is helpful

 

[Dragopentling]

Oh, well, then. I tried, and bad habits just arose again.

Just do ya thing. I'm not trying to be antagonistic....I'm just fed up by this point, so sry.

 

[Xerkser500]

There's also literally the 6 other points I pointed out in what happened in that Mega Evolution episode too. If scans are needed, i'll provide.

And the funny thing is, there's still a couple more 5-B feats

 

[Elizhaa]

There's also literally the 6 other points I pointed out in what happened in that Mega Evolution episode too. If scans are needed, i'll provide.
And the funny thing is, there's still a couple more 5-B feats

The, can you post the additional 5-B feats, Xerkser500?