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That said, I still fully believe in Kyogre's moon level feats. The whirlpool, the storm dispersion.
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Kyogre's Roar downgrade
- Thread starter Enryu_The_Red_Tower
- Start date
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I'll be okay with that, then, but the "KE or no KE" factor is something I still can't agree with....at least not yet.The real cal howard said:
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'''Then make a thread on it or stop saying how you don't agree with it with no evidence.''' It doesn't sound like an argument but more denial. You're basically saying "I don't like it therefore it's questionable". It's annoying...
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I think Groudon has a good feat in the first PMD, his awakening was causing earthquakes and eruptions all over the world, but I'm not sure.
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Actually, interesting question and im wondering why this wasnt asked yet.Assaltwaffle said:
What reason is there for Kyogre's storm to not use KE? Im almost 100% sure Generations shows us Kyogre physically manipulating the storm.
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I think "creating a storm" and "physically manipulating a storm" are calc'ed differently now, for the time being. I don't see how Kyogre's feat isn't KE-involved, either? Like, do you want Kyogre to physically make a certain movement that creates and/or expands a storm, instead of just roaring? Kyogre can't punch, btw LOLXerkser500 said:
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@Xerkser
Kyogre just roars and generates the storm. We never see him physically expanding it, as is the assumption of the calculation.
Kyogre just roars and generates the storm. We never see him physically expanding it, as is the assumption of the calculation.
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Dragonmasterxyz said:
Just back away slowly...
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Then what is Kyogre doing here at 3:04 onward?Assaltwaffle said:
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Dragopenting, please stop. Your not helping this thread with your personal issues toward the topic.
Leave it out please.
Leave it out please.
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It's literally just flying in the air. Nothing implying it is physically stirring up the storm.Xerkser500 said:
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Except the entire scene itself implies that it is?
If the storm was already fully made and doing its job, why is Kyogre doing that? The storm is literally entensifying while Kyogre flaps its fins. We even see lightning and water tornados being generated while Kyogre does that, so something was influenced by its movement.
If the storm was already fully made and doing its job, why is Kyogre doing that? The storm is literally entensifying while Kyogre flaps its fins. We even see lightning and water tornados being generated while Kyogre does that, so something was influenced by its movement.
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"Except the entire scene itself implies that it is? If the storm was already fully made and doing its job, why is Kyogre doing that? We even see lightning being generated while Kyogre does that, so something was influenced by its movement."
So we assume just because Kyogre is deciding to float in the air that he's moving the storm with his fins? No. That is not what the scene is implying. And lightning striking around it means nothing. The storm would create lighting regardless.
"The storm is literally entensifying while Kyogre flaps its fins."
The storm would intensify regardless. Nothing supports that Kyogre flying in the air is powering it up. Especially with how the cause of the storm is a roar. Kyogre flapping its fins is literally how it stays in the air.
So we assume just because Kyogre is deciding to float in the air that he's moving the storm with his fins? No. That is not what the scene is implying. And lightning striking around it means nothing. The storm would create lighting regardless.
"The storm is literally entensifying while Kyogre flaps its fins."
The storm would intensify regardless. Nothing supports that Kyogre flying in the air is powering it up. Especially with how the cause of the storm is a roar. Kyogre flapping its fins is literally how it stays in the air.
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>So we assume just because Kyogre is deciding to float in the air that he's moving the storm with his fins?
That by itself? Maybe not. But what he does when floating above the water does and that goes back to the lightning and water tornados. Lightning may be made from the storm itself, but it's up to you or someone to prove that is the case. The lightning didnt even appear from the start of the storm either, so im inclined to say Kyogre's influence from it's movement is what's causing it.
Even if im wrong on that, Kyogre in this specific instance was also shown having an aura around itself, showing that it's gathering up power for something. Which would be uneccessary if the storm was already made and doing its job.
That by itself? Maybe not. But what he does when floating above the water does and that goes back to the lightning and water tornados. Lightning may be made from the storm itself, but it's up to you or someone to prove that is the case. The lightning didnt even appear from the start of the storm either, so im inclined to say Kyogre's influence from it's movement is what's causing it.
Even if im wrong on that, Kyogre in this specific instance was also shown having an aura around itself, showing that it's gathering up power for something. Which would be uneccessary if the storm was already made and doing its job.
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The Burden of Proof is on you to prove that him flapping and this aura meant that this storm was being physically channeled in the first place. Where is this stated, or made apparent when the storm itself was created via roar and not a flap.
"Even if im wrong on that, Kyogre in this specific instance was also shown having an aura around itself, showing that it's gathering up power for something. Which would be uneccessary if the storm was already made and doing its job."
So basically, it's impossible for a storm to get stronger on its own. Let's not forget that this is literally Kyogre's passive ability.
"Even if im wrong on that, Kyogre in this specific instance was also shown having an aura around itself, showing that it's gathering up power for something. Which would be uneccessary if the storm was already made and doing its job."
So basically, it's impossible for a storm to get stronger on its own. Let's not forget that this is literally Kyogre's passive ability.
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I've already stopped, thanks for the concernXerkser500 said:
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Answering with kind that of gif make you like a douchebag honestly, Pent.
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As far as aura's go....im pretty sure if a character unleashes an aura thats a common fictional trope that they're gathering or releasing power for a certain action. Which I fail to see why Kyogre would do either if the storm was already made and doing it's job.
>Lets not forget that this is literally Kyogre's passive ability.
Assuming Primordial Sea on its own is planetary in range, the ability clearly doesnt have a factor in this or else why would Kyogre actively roar to make the storm in the first place? If the ability had any play, then that means the roar didnt make the storm in this case either. Same thing with Groudon's Desolate Land and the heat wave.
>Lets not forget that this is literally Kyogre's passive ability.
Assuming Primordial Sea on its own is planetary in range, the ability clearly doesnt have a factor in this or else why would Kyogre actively roar to make the storm in the first place? If the ability had any play, then that means the roar didnt make the storm in this case either. Same thing with Groudon's Desolate Land and the heat wave.
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You also have to consider this. Kyogre doesn't usually fly or float in the air. so I don't see how KE via some aura or other abilities isn't involved hereXerkser500 said:
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Got any source of statement that that is what Kyogre's aura does? The storm was clearly doing it's job. Doesn't mean Kyogre has to just sit in the water. If the whale wants to fly, let it fly. Still nothing that states that the flapping of the fins strengthened the storm.
Okay, let's assume Primordial Sea is activated by roar. Even with it not being passive, it still does not prove KE.
Okay, let's assume Primordial Sea is activated by roar. Even with it not being passive, it still does not prove KE.
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Kyogre stayed afloat in the air while the storm is growing to the point of drowning everything else on the planet. It was after the storm had grown to such immense levels to where Kyogre decided to do something else like......persay, dive back down and have a few humans for lunchDragonmasterxyz said:
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I mean...Archie was calling to it.
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He done screwed up cause of it. as if turning every city on Earth into Atlantis wasn't bad enoughDragonmasterxyz said:
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And I bet he was delicious. ovo
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>Got any source of statement that that is what Kyogre's aura does?
And....why would we need something like that for this? It's obvious what an Aura does for characters, its signaling that they're gathering or releasing power for an action. Thats what an Aura is, to have energy envelop the user for different purposes.
Naruto using Kurama's chakra, any DB character having a KI Aura, Bleach characters with Reiatsu, etc. I don't see why Kyogre having an aura in this instance is suddenly so different that we need to prove it's energy based when the common presumption is everything in the former.
>Okay, let's assume Primordial Sea is activated by roar. Even with it not being passive, it still does not prove KE
The issue here though is we know Kyogre doesn't actively use Primordial Sea (at least as far as im aware). It's activated just by him undergoing Primal Reversion, and Primal Kyogre still clearly had to actively do x to make a storm on such a scale.
I agree this point doesnt prove KE but using the ability as a counter argument isnt right either as that would go completely against Kyogre's roar being the main indicator.
And....why would we need something like that for this? It's obvious what an Aura does for characters, its signaling that they're gathering or releasing power for an action. Thats what an Aura is, to have energy envelop the user for different purposes.
Naruto using Kurama's chakra, any DB character having a KI Aura, Bleach characters with Reiatsu, etc. I don't see why Kyogre having an aura in this instance is suddenly so different that we need to prove it's energy based when the common presumption is everything in the former.
>Okay, let's assume Primordial Sea is activated by roar. Even with it not being passive, it still does not prove KE
The issue here though is we know Kyogre doesn't actively use Primordial Sea (at least as far as im aware). It's activated just by him undergoing Primal Reversion, and Primal Kyogre still clearly had to actively do x to make a storm on such a scale.
I agree this point doesnt prove KE but using the ability as a counter argument isnt right either as that would go completely against Kyogre's roar being the main indicator.
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LOL Ikr?
But referring back to the topic at hand....I honestly think we do need a separate thread discussing when KE should be considered and when it should not, in a less subjective manner, to prevent less misunderstandings here. Cause from what I see it, "passive creation" and "kinetic creation" of a certain abnormality, event, or natural disaster, etc.....are calc'ed quite differently. I don't think the stuff covered in the page "Kinetic Energy Feats" is enough to cover that, imho.
But referring back to the topic at hand....I honestly think we do need a separate thread discussing when KE should be considered and when it should not, in a less subjective manner, to prevent less misunderstandings here. Cause from what I see it, "passive creation" and "kinetic creation" of a certain abnormality, event, or natural disaster, etc.....are calc'ed quite differently. I don't think the stuff covered in the page "Kinetic Energy Feats" is enough to cover that, imho.
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"Naruto using Kurama's chakra, any DB character having a KI Aura, Bleach characters with Reiatsu, etc. I don't see why Kyogre having an aura in this instance is suddenly so different that we need to prove it's energy based when the common presumption is everything in the former."
Because not all Aura's do the same thing, hence the categories. Even if it is an aura of energy. Still not proving KE.
Because not all Aura's do the same thing, hence the categories. Even if it is an aura of energy. Still not proving KE.
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Well, here's one of the categories for Aura's taken from its page:
"Catastrophe-inducing - Aura that causes natural (or supernatural) disasters on a humongous scale. Might even allow the user to absorb from surroundings at an unlimited scale."
And what Kyogre does is...well....yeah.
But aside from that, what exactly is an Aura if it isnt energy then? The purposes can obviously be different but the auras itself are still energy. And I know Kyogre having an aura alone doesnt prove he's physically manipulating the storm. Its just a part of my argument. A factor.
The Aura itself doesnt mean its KE based, but what I am saying that is KE based is that Kyogre in that instance has an aura to indicate he's using energy, he's floating above the ocean, and flapping his fins. While doing that, the storm gets worse and effects like lightning and water tornados are formed. Mitigating factors all adding up to one big factor: him manipulating the storm.
"Catastrophe-inducing - Aura that causes natural (or supernatural) disasters on a humongous scale. Might even allow the user to absorb from surroundings at an unlimited scale."
And what Kyogre does is...well....yeah.
But aside from that, what exactly is an Aura if it isnt energy then? The purposes can obviously be different but the auras itself are still energy. And I know Kyogre having an aura alone doesnt prove he's physically manipulating the storm. Its just a part of my argument. A factor.
The Aura itself doesnt mean its KE based, but what I am saying that is KE based is that Kyogre in that instance has an aura to indicate he's using energy, he's floating above the ocean, and flapping his fins. While doing that, the storm gets worse and effects like lightning and water tornados are formed. Mitigating factors all adding up to one big factor: him manipulating the storm.
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I concede and agree with the aura bit, however, you have not proven that the aura and fin flapping are at all correlated. You have not proven that it wasn't simply the aura doing so and that the fin flap had anything to do with the storm.
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That is, either way, completely irrelevant and doesn't allow KE to be used. We should just go ahead and downgrade the profiles already.
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To clarify:
With the primal's 5-B feats out of the way, are there any scalable feats between the primal's old feat and Lugia's 6-B feat?
Ik about Jirachi, but Jirachi scales to no-one. Pikachu's storm dispersion is another one, and according to Kukui this Pikachu was different from anime Pikachu, so it may not be an outlier (and even then the low-end is also 6-B).
I saw somewhere that Primal Groudon had a moon level feat, but I'm not sure how legit that is
With the primal's 5-B feats out of the way, are there any scalable feats between the primal's old feat and Lugia's 6-B feat?
Ik about Jirachi, but Jirachi scales to no-one. Pikachu's storm dispersion is another one, and according to Kukui this Pikachu was different from anime Pikachu, so it may not be an outlier (and even then the low-end is also 6-B).
I saw somewhere that Primal Groudon had a moon level feat, but I'm not sure how legit that is
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It's not irrelevant just because you think it is. And I disagree with downgrading the pages yet as even if this storm feat doesnt work out at all, the Primals still have other stuff backing them being 5-B too.Kepekley23 said:
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Yes, it is frankly irrelevant. Kyogre has aura that can create storms. How would that at all prove the storm formation is KE-based? It is a most-perfect example of a non-sequitur.
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>You have not proven that the aura and fin flapping are at all correlated.
Occams Razor, it was for the storm as Kyogre has no other reason to be showing off an aura. We know Kyogre doesnt need an aura in order to flap its wings or fly mid air, the episode even shows this a minute later when Kyogre devours Archie and his ship. Kyogre's aura was gone in that instance. So Kyogre enveloping himself in an aura was used for something, but not that. What else can it be representive for besides doing the storm feat?
>You have not proven that it wasn't simply the aura doing so and that the fin flap had anything to do with the storm.
Debatable i'll admit, but then answer me this question. Lets assume your right and that the aura itself is whats manipulating the storm, not the fin flapping. Why would Kyogre be flying mid air? If his aura was enough, Kyogre wouldnt need to be in mid air for it to do the job. We know he doesnt need the aura to fly around, so him floating about the ocean has some other significance to it.
Occams Razor, it was for the storm as Kyogre has no other reason to be showing off an aura. We know Kyogre doesnt need an aura in order to flap its wings or fly mid air, the episode even shows this a minute later when Kyogre devours Archie and his ship. Kyogre's aura was gone in that instance. So Kyogre enveloping himself in an aura was used for something, but not that. What else can it be representive for besides doing the storm feat?
>You have not proven that it wasn't simply the aura doing so and that the fin flap had anything to do with the storm.
Debatable i'll admit, but then answer me this question. Lets assume your right and that the aura itself is whats manipulating the storm, not the fin flapping. Why would Kyogre be flying mid air? If his aura was enough, Kyogre wouldnt need to be in mid air for it to do the job. We know he doesnt need the aura to fly around, so him floating about the ocean has some other significance to it.
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I apologize for not following but what do they get downgraded too?Kepekley23 said:
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5-C
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