Kumagawa vs Gowther

[Firephoenixearl]

The only way to win against Kumagawa is through Soul Erasure or stronger Hax which neither of these Gowther possesses.

Soul Erasure is mostly just a theory doe. There is no proof that he "can't" come back, but there is no proof that he "can" come back, so "can't" takes priority here.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Eh... he's resistant not immune, I am not sure what are you saying right now. Not to mention the feat, if I am not mistaken, comes from the little boy that comes around with Mister Mind Control, feel free to correct me on that, and if you tell me _he_ is at the level of Gowther? I'd have to ask you if you are being serious.

How is a technique that managed to affect Escanor not workable? Where's the actual logic on that? And headcanon? Gowther can alter, rewrite and delete memories, he can torture people in their mind, BLACKOUT literally knocks people in a 3 mile radius out and Blackout arrow is a single target version of this.

I'd like you to actually try and check before claiming nothing.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Kumagawa isn't Escanor, don't know what you're trying to say here.

"BlackoutÒÇîÕñºÕü£Úø╗ÒâûÒâ®ÒââÒé»ÒéóÒéªÒâê Daiteiden (Burakkuauto); literally meaning "Great Power Outage"ÒÇì: After summoning his sacred treasure, Gowther uses his power to envelop everything within a three mile radius of himself. Everyone with a spirit level of less than 400 caught within range of the technique is rendered unconscious for exactly ten minutes."

Why would you think that Kumagawa's Spirit is under 400?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

We have no way of quantifying Kumagawa's spirit level. I guess you could compair him to characters with a spirit number.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There's no way of knowing his spirit level, but does the skill even have merit for versus battle then if it can't be applied?

Not to mention, Merlin helped boost it, but I am having a hard time processing a skill that could knock out Sunshine Escanor not having an effect on Kumagawa. Someone like Gilthunder, just for an idea, has around 530 in Spirit. Meliodas before Galant even showed up, however, had 2100. A Prideful Sun-infused Escanor? Well...

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Bump

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

So, what's the biggest argument for both sides. So, this can finally be settled and added.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So, what's the biggest argument for both sides. So, this can finally be settled and added.

Well Gowther will mind control while Kumagawa will just toy with his opponent or use bookmaker.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

I don't see how mind control would work against someone who has Resistance to it and could just erase Gowther or his abilities. Yes, Escanor has also Resistance to it and it did a effect on him, but Kumagawa is a damn Reality Warper with Hax, while Escanor is a mere Powerhouse.

Nobody in the series was ever able to read his mind and his aura alone makes others avoid contact with him.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Kumagawa's scary, I won't deny that, but the only mind readers/manipulaters were children. I'd be will to bet an adult with many more years experience would be a bit better.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Being an adultÔëáhaving experience.

I genuinely meant nobody. The Chairman&Zenkichi's mother included. Yukuhashi, whose main power is reading minds, was unable to, aswell as do the pupils think that his mind is beyond help.


Also, making him uncounscious is useless. He stood up after collapsing.

 

[Walking_Strawman]

@Unforgiven

You should toss those in an Imgur and see if you can get that added to the feats on his profile

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Bump


What are the votes

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The pupils comments don't really matter one bit since they ended up wrong. Kumagawa is as odd as always, but he was obviously not beyond help. The Chairman and Zenkichi's mom are not mind readers, even if they are very experienced and likely insightful characters.

EVEN more so, Oudo's body control through his Weighted Words can be resisted by the likes of Zenkichi after training (granted I can't remember if he used his Abnormality at full power then), and Yukuhashi is his opposite in receiving signals instead of sending them. Do you really think Gowther is the equal of either of these 2? Kumagawa is resistent, not immune.

Finally, Kumagawa has been shown a number of times just getting up from hits that should knock off any normal human, if not outright kill them. That's related to his resistance to pain and stubborness, not some immunity to passing out. How's oxidating him knocking him out? He's getting killed, not incapacitated.

 

[PaChi2]

Good sir, how is this fair?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@LSirLancelotDuLacI

Yes Kumagawa has only shown resistance.

Resistance to pain doesn't make him immune to getting stabbed in the brain. That will kill you, that's like say "a true man doesn't cry from having his brain stabbed" no he won't but he will die, kumagawa won't as he has shown.

Kumagawa will most likely STILL come back from the brain ***. Remember what happened when ezumaching mind fuked him? Yeah, that was a total mental shut down there, and he came back. All Fiction just brought him back (there is no other way). What is there to say All Fiction won't bring him back from Gowther's mind hax?

And i still don't get how any of this is relevant at all if Kumagawa just bookmakers him right off the bat. Gowther won't be activating his skills before Kumagwa can time hax.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Even with Speed equalized, shouldn't he be able to skip until the match's end anyway?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If it's decided that Kumagawa will just resist whatever Gowther throws his way, I have to ask the same question as Pachi.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@Unforgiven0815 Time skip isn't gonna help much unless he Bookmakers, Gowther is a doll and getting 'screwed' won't do anything. And I only remember one instance of time skip + bookmaker in the entire manga.

@Firephoenixearl What...? My point was that Kumagawa has immense pain tolerance and stubborness, so he is still standing despite wounds that should kill him or at least make him unconcious. All Fiction revives automatically once he dies and in no other circumstances. It doesn't automatically make him conscious if passed out, otherwise this whole fight would be a stomp and should be done away with, likewise if he's somehow no-selling all of Gowther's mind hax.

 

[BurlapJack]

I think we should take into account gowther's physical strength level, and how about gowther being a doll that doesn't pay any mind (heh) to getting his head cut off

 

[Unforgiven0815]

How would Gowther win when killing Kumagawa is useless and only Soul Erasure would be the way to go here, which Gowther is not able to do?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The problem Burlap, is that physical prowess means nothing because Kumagawa automatically undoes his death when it happens, and All Fiction means restraining him with his body is going nowhere.

Unforgiven, you can stop acting like resistance means Kumagawa is gonna disregard all of Gowther's mind hax when the two people with mind powers in Medaka Box don't even approach Gowther, and his resistance is derived from the comments of one of those two. Kumagawa only auto All Fiction's when he dies.

 

[BurlapJack]

All i can say is as a demon's doll maybe,(and this is a big MAYBE) he may possess some soul stealing skills but if (IF) he did have that ability like all demons do, it would be out of character (current gowther)

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Unforgiven, you can stop acting


No thanks.

 

[BurlapJack]

Well then i dont get this match up other than "xd both possess mind powers" may as well give it to kuma or whatever

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Read Kumagawa's profile then, Burlap.

We base resistance on feats Unforgiven, and you are the one with the burden of proof that Oudo and Yukuhashi is in anyway comparable to Gowther in mind hax. Otherwise, he's not resisting being knocked unconscious, getting his memory rewritten, or erased, etc. Nightmare Teller is probably useless, however.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

"In no other circumstances will all fiction work"

Not true, as i already told you it worked on a full mental shut down, All Fiction brought him back from an unconscious state that is "NOT" death, the case with ezumachi.

"His pain tolerance"

Pain won't make u take a knife through the brain without budging. Kumagawa didn't die and come back after that stab, he literally just stood there without even caring he had a knife through his brain, that's not just pain tolerance. As for pain, it's no big deal, he'll just erase his "pain" same as how he did with aura.

Again, battle start Kumagawa time bliztes Gowther and bookmakers, calls it a day.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Who is Ezumachi, I can't find that name at all.

You actually would likely be able to survive something like that, literally you'd probably end up dead because of the intense shock and pain or bleeding out unless that knife went in really deep and hit something really important(people can still live with chunks of their brain missing, and a damaged eyeball is not exactly an instant kill). You do know this is the same dude that got an arm blown off in one attack and he didn't even flinch, right? You survive a lot unless it's downright fully fatal if there's no pain and shock getting to you.

And again, that's a lot to assume when that has never been Kumagawa's go to strategy. He tends to take some hits in, monologue, use his normal screws, maybe time blitz and impale people... no really, even against Medaka and the Style user girl, he didn't outright use the thing. He's not an efficient, finish them outright person, unlike Gowther.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ezumachi is the dude who uses colors. He used blue on his body so that Kumagawa's brain would interpret them as "hits" or "dmg" and he fell unconscious. All Fiction brought him back.

He said "aim for a vital spot". And brain dmg is 1 thing, getting shot through the head won't mean "u might survive". He was hit in a vital stop such as his brain and didn't even care (did it for fun actually).

First of all Kumagawa's strategy to 'take a hit' comes from the fact that he was looking for an op ability that could beat Ajimu. Against Medaka he started right away with Bookmaker (and he had failed to find an opening). He used it right after he "stopped caring about their powers" against Jakago Aki, he used it right after Emuake was dumped against the style user. In all of these cases he was waiting for something and didn't use it right away, as soon as that matter was concluded and Kumagawa decided he wanted to "end the fight" which is what we'r doing in SBA, he trashed each of them with bookmaker.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

He also once put a screw through his head so there's that.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If you argue he was unconscious, the school day had already ended when Kumagawa woke up, unlike all other uses of All Fiction reviving him within the moment and apparently without his say on it.

Have you actually seen mortality rates for being shot in the head? And again, all of this sketchy at best considering Medaka Box's nature as a heavy satire, and as Kumagawa ca and should be dead as normal and him dying like any normal person(disregarding his stubborness) is much more consistent than him pulling crazy tricks like that, I doubt you can really use that.

He actually wanted to use it on Medaka - his demeanor wasn't normal Misogi even more, that occasion is very situational. AGAIN, he didn't use it against Jakago Aki because he didn't have it, he took his sweet time against the style user and mainly because her style countered All Fiction. If SBA was so simple, Gilgamesh would pull his treasury out full stop first moment when he's not bloodlusted. This is in character last I saw and Kumagawa isn't a full-force-from-first-turn character, and any instance otherwise is the exception not the norm.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He actually wanted to use it on Medaka - his demeanor wasn't normal Misogi even more, that occasion is very situational. AGAIN, he didn't use it against Jakago Aki because he didn't have it, he took his sweet time against the style user and mainly because her style countered All Fiction. If SBA was so simple, Gilgamesh would pull his treasury out full stop first moment when he's not bloodlusted. This is in character last I saw and Kumagawa isn't a full-force-from-first-turn character, and any instance otherwise is the exception not the norm.

The screw suggests otherwise with Jakago's case. That was a bookmaker screw.

The style user never countered All Fiction, it countered normal attacks, and the moment his job was done (stall time for emuake to confess) he stomped hard.

And Medaka's case Misogi was in his "i want to win" state, which is close enough to SBA.

My point a "wanting to win" Kumagawa won't hesistate to use Bookmaker. And if not that, then All FIction is a good one.

Kumagawa wants to win = Bookmaker Kumagawa doesn't want to win but just wants to toy with his opponent= All Fiction is much scarier.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Appearances don't trump logic, even if it's a meta parody like Medaka Box. He shouldn't have Bookmaker by then, Jakagi doesn't show the signs of being afflicted, and that's that. To argue otherwise is an exercise in futility. She commented making things nothing as well, so the indication is pretty heavily that. I'll just let anyone else casting votes decide what they think.

SBA is in character, but the character being willing to kill. They aren't bloodlusted, and this isn't the Misogi that fought Medaka. Stop the one sided assumptions.

And my point is that Misogi is never like that, and him acting otherwise is a contextual situation and not something that'll happen for funsies. The fact that Kumagawa doesn't eliminate people directly with AF, doesn't delete powers with AF, tends to be pretty carefree and not to the point, versus the highly pragmatic and direct Gowther doesn't help him at all. Even more so since one Blackout Arrow and he's down, or his memories getting wiped to the point he doesn't even remember he has any minuses, and this same technique burned off hundreds of years of a Giantess' mind pretty damn fast. But by now we are just going in circles, so I'll try to shut up and see if anyone else has an opinion.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok bookmaker is out of the question.

Now is the All Fiction problem, Kumagawa does like to erase concepts in order to mess with his opponent, he would do the same in this case.