Kumagawa vs Gowther

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

So All Fiction is a pretty powerful skill right? It's not unbeatable, but it's weaknesses aren't too many.

Well, what about mind/memory manip? Gowther has gotsome pretty potient mental powers. Let's see who takes it. Speed Equalized

Win via any means.

Gowther -

Kumagawa Misogi -

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Unless Gowther can mind manipulate Kumagawa into unconciousness and not using both his powers, he is likely toast. Getting screwed hard is likely not gonna affect him due to his body, but he has nothing to resist Bookmaker and AF.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

bump

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Kumagawa wipes the floor.

All Fiction, Imagination Manifestation, No Presence, Book Maker, etc.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Imagination Manifestation is not a thing.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Says who?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

The only chapter that was thing in was when everyone was playing make belive. Outside of that exact scenario it's nothing. On top of that Kumagawa pessimism makes it next to worthless anyway. The rest of your points were all valid, just wish you would elaborate a little more.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Just because it wasn't shown later on doesn't mean that he's not able to.He never used Non Fiction as well, yet he possesses it. In fact, Akune theorized that Kumagawa's Imagination Manifestation is how he imposes the mental image of a screw onto others when using Book Maker. His gloomy mindset allowed him to manifests his imagination of a sword, capable of killing magical beasts. What hinders him of imagining a sword, capable of killing dolls(Gowther's Immortality probably saves him there.)? The only thing his pessimism hinders, is him imagining a win.

Gowther's strength is Mind Manipulation, Telepathy, etc. However, Kumagawa possesses "Resistance to Telepathy and other mental abilities."

What hinders Kumagawa from erasing Gowther?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

"Akune theorized that Kumagawa's Imagination Manifestation is how he imposes the mental image of a screw"

I don't remember that in the first place, but the fact that you say theorized means it was never proven and shouldn'tt be taken as fact. Secondly, The source the screws has always been claimed as Book Maker. Maybe Imagination Manifestation assists, but that's it. Thridly, the "Sword" broke immediatly, without ever even hitting the mark. If you wanted to say he could just imagine a weapon to kill dolls (which sounds very NLF) the same resault would occur. A broken, worthless fake weapon.

Again, aside from Imagination Manifestation, you bring up good points. I forgot Kumagawa resisted mental assaults.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

So, what's your opinion on who would win?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I made the thread to figure that out and I dislike debating on my own matches, but I hate Imagination Manifestation so much more. That's why got so heated.

But if I had to give an opinion I figure both have a pretty good chance. Kumagawa has his usual methods, but I figured Gowther had a pretty good chance of winning with alternative methods to death since, you know, death kinda dosn't mean much to Kumagawa.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

It's fine, I was talking bullshit before, I completely forgot that the sword broke.

My biggest problem with this is, is how I can't see how Gowther would win.

Speed? Gowther is likely Massively Hypersonic+ while Kumagawa is at least Speed of Light+him being able to erase the time for him to attack or get something/somewhere.

Gowther's Attacks?

Invasion wouldn't work in any way&Transformation is useless. There'd be nothing left. Even if he tries to get in his mind and make him unconscious(which Gowther never did?), it would be pointless.

But I respect your opinion.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

All fiction is a bit broken. Even if mind manipulation were to work on Kumagawa, Kumagawa is faster so he would just erase gowther first. Is this getting closed?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Speed? Gowther is likely Massively Hypersonic+ while Kumagawa is at least Speed of Light+him being able to erase the time for him to attack or get something/somewhere.

ah shit. I forgot. Speed Equalized.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

ah shit. I forgot. Speed Equalized.

Now there is still the fact that Kumagawa was unaffected by mind attacks.

 

[Walking_Strawman]

Imagination Manifestation exists, its just that Kumagawa's is useless due to his personality. and no, not everyone there was playing make believe, it is just not all of thembelieved what was going on

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Imagination Manifestation exists, its just that Kumagawa's is useless due to his personality. and no, not everyone there was playing make believe, it is just not all of thembelieved what was going o

He can't rly just spawn shit out of his mind, w8 actually....what if it's THAT ability that allows him to just pull screws out of his ass when needed? It never crossed my mind.

 

[Walking_Strawman]

its theorized that, but I don't think so. I think its too unlike his other skills. Probably just something left over from Book Maker. Like a passive effect

 

[Firephoenixearl]

its theorized that, but I don't think so. I think its too unlike his other skills. Probably just something left over from Book Maker. Like a passive effect

That sword thing is just his imagination, his scary presence made everyone believe that he actually spawned something, i mean it was just role playing after all. But just how does Kumagawa just spam his screws like that. Ok the small ones are believeable to some extend but when he just summons screws the size of a casual brown bear, then it gets disturbingly weird.

 

[Walking_Strawman]

It was roll play, but it was also up in the air how much of it was legit magic and how much was just imagination. We know magic has credence in Medaka Box cuz Wargold and Ajimu. I was planning to make a profile for the magic user they fought

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Gowther is actually a fairly good opponent for Kumagawa since he has the tools to manage and shut him off, or his tools, without killing him. Also, 'erasing' Gowther is unlikely if they are in-character. I don't know where people pulled this off from, but Kumagawa doesn't erase people. This didn't even happen when he trashed the entire student council in that Good Loser Kumagawa side chapter, or against anyone else in the school while he was still a twisted, crooked weird thing. You'll have to give me substantial proof he's gonna aim All Fiction directly at Gowther, and that it'll be in character for him.

And as Zenkichi said, Kumagawa is the kind to take someone's first hit. Granted, Gowther is likely ****** if he doesn't take the chance to properly shut him off.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm Kumagawa doesn't spam All Fiction on ppl, but he spams AF blitz and Bookmaker which is basically the same thing. Both are insta win conditions. Also Kumagawa is stated to be immune to mind hax.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He has resistance, not immunity in the least. Gowther is pretty much the resident lord of ******* with minds, and I doubt he's something Kumagawa can just ignore.

Also, Gowther is a doll. He's no actual human. Getting pierced by screws won't kill him, and the only moment I can remember Kumagawa blitz Bookmakering someone was that Style user girl. He does blitz plus screws, but he also DOES just take the first hit of things a lot of times. I am unsure about just sayin Bookmaker would affect Gowther normally, but I'm leaning to say it does. Kumagawa's best chance is using that, but there's nothing to point out it'll be his straight, go to move. There's many battles where that's exactly not the case.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2 things to say on this topic.

1. Is this even in character?

2. Bookmaker will most likely affect him.

Also yeah probs not immunity but resistent, my bad choice of words there.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Bump

 

[Firephoenixearl]

All Fiction erases before anything else, or just erases his powers. Bit easy for Kuma.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Bump

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Gowther has no way of winning this.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He actually has. Kumagawa is not impervious to mind hax, he's not gonna be deleting someone directly, he never does, and I fail to remember an instance of him just deleting someone's powers. In character Kumagawa doesn't just do this, even if he could potentially if he saw no other options. But he can still Bookmaker Gowther, so that's also unlikely.

Finally, All Fiction automatically resets him back alive... but Gowther using his mind control to not let him activate All Fiction or to incapacitate him does not count as Death.

 

[Walking_Strawman]

He is resistent. A telepath couldn't read or influence him. He has deleted someone directly before. He attempted to delete Emukae's powers, but she was resistent so it didn't work. He also did erase that one murderer who isn't a murderer's powers, tho it wasn't via All Fiction, its a long story i just wanted to correct you on that.

he would come back to life even if he didn't want to. I don't have the scan, but @Fire showed me it before.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

My thinking when making this match was All Fiction is automatic on death only. Gowther has ways around that with Mental Incap.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Exactly. Kumagawa is resistant and not outright immune to those things, plus Oudo and his little friend who are the ones with the mind related powers are leagues below Gowther. Where Zenkichi and Medaka could resist Oudo, Gowther easily body controlled two vampires without much difficulty and even Hijacked(actual name of the ability) mindless rock constructs made by Diane.

I don't see Kumagawa taking a Blackout Arrow and remaining the same, shrugging off Rewrite, or having a good counter for Lost World if he erases his memories back to before getting All Fiction, or even further back than Bookmaker.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

My thinking when making this match was All Fiction is automatic on death only. Gowther has ways around that with Mental Incap.

Well yeah, that's true but still, Kumagawa is a bit out of Gowther's league. Kumagawa is resistant to mental shit but not immune ok, Gowther should surpass him, but still putting someone who's casually universal+ level of erasure and has 1 hell of a strong seal he likes to spam against Gowther, is a bit unfair.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Fire, again, that's merely an statement and one that isn't taken at face value here because of the meta nature of Medaka Box. We go with the most he has been shown to do, which is far, far below universal.

And again, he doesn't spam Bookmaker. You are fairly free to show otherwise by citing examples, of course.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Kumagawa is stated to be universal+ in this wiki doe, anyway, it's not like it even matters here. Kumagawa bookmakered the Student council girls, screwed (he didn't want to cause them any harm) both the middle school girls and his team mates, bookmakered Kugurugi, he said he couldn't find an opening to use Bookmaker on Medaka (which means he did try, but his inability to do so stopped him from Bookmakering Medaka, which won't be the case here), Bookmakered zenkichi and the others when Medaka was going to destroy the moon, screwed zenkichi and emuake, screwed ezumachi (though he did toy with all fiction a bit before that), bookmakered all the ppl the mind control card user put on to kill him. Kumagawa DOES LOVE HIS SCREWS man. He mostly uses AF when he's toying with his opponents doe.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He's... not, stated to be universal+. Are you sure you checked his profile correctly? Unknown is what's there because it's Unknow what it truly is and it was decided there wasn't enough evidence for Universal.

And no, he didn't use Bookmaker in any of them. Bookmaker has very obvious physical tells and none of the Student Council Girls in Good Loser Kumagawa have them. Rather, this was before Ajimu took All Fiction to give him Bookmaker, so not really sure what made you think that. You aren't thinking of Bookmaker, you are thinking about his normal screws. He's been using screws as weapons dozens of chapters before Bookmaker was even introduced, they are normal, if oversized, screws.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not rly he does use bookmaker fairly often when he does own it.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6498/53a3daa98f91dc6883d4a80a61e8b19297e91f94_hq.jpg

https://78.media.tumblr.com/b5d24e9cc68464467647d05ea4328242/tumblr_n24fv6xdub1t070zuo6_1280.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pbGLruQ.jpg

And the case with Medaka ofc when he tried to use it almost right away. When he has Bookmaker he likes to use it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Once more, he didn't even have Bookmaker when he was in that other school. That thing isn't bookmaker, and to claim otherwise would be a story inconsistency since Ajimu gave it back to him later.

Also, we are speaking battles here. The case with Shiranui and against those 3 really doesn't count. Medaka wanted to get those 3 out of there quick and Kumagawa helped, Bookmaker was the best way. Likewise making an arena of it for Shiranui - otherwise, I would be lying since he did erase Hitoyoshi to make Shiranui angry, so he did erase someone directly... but it was for that, to make Shiranui scared and have her react, he fully intended to have Hitoyoshi back in 3 minutes. Erasing people directly is unlike him, using Bookmaker willy nilly is unlike him. So far we only have 3 good cases, one wasn't a battle(Ajimu), the two others he doesn't use it right away, and in one of those he even uses it because the opponent shuts down All Fiction, so he doesn't have other options.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Gowther was never seen making somebody unconscious so that's just your headcanon that he can do it. Blackout is not not a worthable feat here, it's like saying Genjutsus would work against DB characters. The only way to win against Kumagawa is through Soul Erasure or stronger Hax which neither of these Gowther possesses.

Mind Abilities, the only abilities Gowther is good at, won't work on someone who is resistant to it. Kumagawa takes this Mismatch 11/10.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

As u can see the screw he puts on the school girl IS a bookmaker, it has a flat head, no other screws have flat head besides bookmaker (idk how he used bookmaker back then doe). Then there is also the point will gowther instantly go for the mind control?