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Kratos vs Madara
- Thread starter Axl233
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Offmon seems like he'd be a good match for a bloodlusted PoH Kratos. Or even Revivemon.
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Damnit Kratos has a lot of scheduled matches now. I'll write some of 'em down while we wait for Perp to post his counters ovo.
What about a Kratos vs. Lucifer rematch? Kratos now has counters to the hax that made that a stomp.
What about a Kratos vs. Lucifer rematch? Kratos now has counters to the hax that made that a stomp.
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Revivemon and Kratos fought pre update before iirc. So we can have a redux of that.
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Guess that will serve as a distraction.
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Ahem...
A lot of the logic upon which Kratos's win is predicated seems to be that he would absorb large chunks of Madara's AP and Dura over time... I do not see this as being the case. Unless this power draining effect is explicitly percentage based or some such in some way, I can't see it draining that much more than his max AP per hit, at most... which is what, 40+ Petatons per hit via scaling from Atlas? (Probably closer to 60 or so, given how far Zeus/Power of Hope are above Atlas, but oh well)
If that's what he leads with, then yeah, he might start chipping away at that difference fairly quickly I guess, but with Madara's... 3.8 Zettatons or so, that's not at all as drastic as you seem to say. What are the mechanics behind this power-steal, anyways, out of curiosity?
At any rate, Standard Battle Assumptions in play, they start 4 kilometers apart, right? And within line of sight presumably? The moment Kratos makes any motions, Madara's pre-cog will pick up on them, since it would at least initially require some brief amount of acceleration- even if he is much slower, Madara would still be able to at least react to it, in much the same way that a human can react to a fast, but far away, vehicle.
If Kratos does lead with Blades of Exile, Madara will not only know where he's swinging, but he'll be able to throw out several Limbo clones to intercept (on top of immediately thereafter using Susano'o to just Barrier himself in from all directions.)
Kratos has... not put himself in a good situation at this point. He's definitely faster than any of his opponenets, but there's at least six of them, all right next to him since he would have pulled himself adjacent or Madara to him after the attack, and after his next few actions its very possible that Madara's next move would be dropping more summons to stack the pressure. On top of all of this, the Infinite Tsukiyomi is constantly trying to mess with him in the background- I understand that Kratos's mind hax resistance is pretty crazy, but it is also worth noting that IT mind-haxxed an entire planet full of people, including a sizable contingent specifically trained to counter exceptional genjutsus, without any real hassle at all. I have a hard time believing that Kratos wouldn't be at least mildly phazed/slowed down by this...
So, Kratos's next few moves at this point are crucial, because unlike Madara he doesn't have the advantage of being able to one-shot with whatever attack he happens to choose from his gigantic pool (many of which have such stupidly massive area-of-effect that Kratos might not be able to wholly dodge even with his immense speed.) So, what are his options...?
> Block/swat away a Limbo clone. This is an awful idea, as the raw force behind it compared to Kratos would shatter his arm, possibly stagger him briefly, and as a consequence of these two things very possibly get him merced before he has a chance to reposition/recover/what have you.
> Throw out some AoE energy attack. With the immense AP difference, this fails to do more than singe Madara's coat, but let's say for the sake of argument that he threw out his Poseidon's Rage, which evidently can atomize people it hits.
I am... very skeptical of this being some kind of molecular hax, as the description of it mentions nothing of the sort. To use an example of what I'm getting at-
Raiden, in Metal Gear Rising, has a High-Frequency Blade which explicitly seperates the molecular bonds of physical matter it is swung at. This can be considered molecular hax. Poseidon's Rage, on the other hand, seems to simply be an AP feat that we consider vaporizing due to how it appears- it mentions nothing about specifically targeting the molecular bonds of its targets or anything of the sort. So, we have no reason to assume it can vaporize people above his weight class, let alone hundreds of thousands of times so.
> Time Manipulate via the Amulet of Uroboros. It's questionable whether or not it'd be able to pierce Susano'o I think, but assuming it does Madara full well might not dodge it even with the extra distance he's got, and would probably be his best bet for regaining his old speed advantage.
> Wail away at Susano'o... not working. At most, he might snatch a bit of AP/Dura.
> GTFOing out of there before Madara does something crazy. Kratos generally behaves like a berserker out for blood rather than developing complex strategies, this doesn't seem in-character.
> Using Petrify. Again, assuming Madara doesn't react to it with Precog. following by Izanagi-cheat death, and its not blocked by the gigantic Susano'o chakra wall between him and Kratos, this'd definitely be his best bet, as Madara lacks Transmutation Resist iirc. However, this also seems out-of-character, as Kratos enjoys killing his foes in spectacularly brutal fashions if it can be chosen over anything else. Plus- correct me if I'm wrong- don't most GoW bosses resist Petrify? He'd probably assume the same holds here, against this "ultra-boss", as it were- and not bother trying, I would imagine.
> Something else to the tune of one of these things.
And if he's dodging all five attackers in the middle of all of this, still, and the Truth-Seeking Orbs that have just been passively flying out this whole time deleting everything they touch (a little NLF-baity, I know, but it definitely ought to work on beings weaker than him), then Madara's next attack would be... not one of his strongest things, certainly, but probably either Wood Dragon or Great Fire Destruction. The AoE on both skills being as massive as they are, and the danmaku hell Madara's set up at this point, make it a good deal more likely than not that Kratos is getting clipped by something or other, and with the AP difference even getting clipped once is likely the end of it on its own.
...after the battle, of course, Kratos's self-ressurection would begin to kick in, but I don't really doubt Madara would be able to see that happening either. The first listed power of the Sharingan is it's ability to perceive the flow of Chakra- both spiritual energy (i.e. souls/psyche) and physical energy, and what binds the two together. He would definitely be able to see that Kratos's spirit is beginning to resurrect itself, promptly begin to take the battle utterly seriously because self-resurrection is kind of a big deal in the Naruto-verse as far as how much of a threat its considered, last I checked, and proceed to Human Path/Naraka Path to incapacitate for at least long enough to count as a victory, or Preta Path and disperse his chakra that way (preventing the spiritual/physical energies from properly reconnecting with one another)... etc.
Yes, Kratos has Resistance to Soul Manip. to at least partially stop that from happening, and to Power Null so that Madara can't just throw out Chakra Chains and fix the problem that way, but all things considered I see the fight going to Madara at least 7, maybe 8 of 10 times. Even if Madara can't stop him from coming back forever via Power of conceptual Hope-et cetera, he certainly can long enough to call it a win and go run off to somewhere else.
P.S.: I'm pretty sure saying that the Blade of Olympus would just eat Susano'o on contact is also NLF, since it's based on similar logic to the Blades of Exile thing.
P.P.S.: If Kratos started with a ranged attack like, say, Apollo's Bow, Ice of Poseidon, etc., it's probably not going to turn out any better. Kratos's hax don't work that well at range, and with the AP difference it'd just be like shooting nerf darts at a mildly aggravated steel wall. Madara would have time to set up a bit more and/or toss out a Lightning Dispatch or Chibaku Tensei as a show of force, Kratos would get pissed and close the distance upon realizing that range isn't exactly his game to play in this match-up (assuming he doesn't get nuked from orbit like a dumbass, which I wouldn't expect to happen), and it likely proceeds from there as prior described.
So, yeah. That' smy argument I guess.
A lot of the logic upon which Kratos's win is predicated seems to be that he would absorb large chunks of Madara's AP and Dura over time... I do not see this as being the case. Unless this power draining effect is explicitly percentage based or some such in some way, I can't see it draining that much more than his max AP per hit, at most... which is what, 40+ Petatons per hit via scaling from Atlas? (Probably closer to 60 or so, given how far Zeus/Power of Hope are above Atlas, but oh well)
If that's what he leads with, then yeah, he might start chipping away at that difference fairly quickly I guess, but with Madara's... 3.8 Zettatons or so, that's not at all as drastic as you seem to say. What are the mechanics behind this power-steal, anyways, out of curiosity?
At any rate, Standard Battle Assumptions in play, they start 4 kilometers apart, right? And within line of sight presumably? The moment Kratos makes any motions, Madara's pre-cog will pick up on them, since it would at least initially require some brief amount of acceleration- even if he is much slower, Madara would still be able to at least react to it, in much the same way that a human can react to a fast, but far away, vehicle.
If Kratos does lead with Blades of Exile, Madara will not only know where he's swinging, but he'll be able to throw out several Limbo clones to intercept (on top of immediately thereafter using Susano'o to just Barrier himself in from all directions.)
Kratos has... not put himself in a good situation at this point. He's definitely faster than any of his opponenets, but there's at least six of them, all right next to him since he would have pulled himself adjacent or Madara to him after the attack, and after his next few actions its very possible that Madara's next move would be dropping more summons to stack the pressure. On top of all of this, the Infinite Tsukiyomi is constantly trying to mess with him in the background- I understand that Kratos's mind hax resistance is pretty crazy, but it is also worth noting that IT mind-haxxed an entire planet full of people, including a sizable contingent specifically trained to counter exceptional genjutsus, without any real hassle at all. I have a hard time believing that Kratos wouldn't be at least mildly phazed/slowed down by this...
So, Kratos's next few moves at this point are crucial, because unlike Madara he doesn't have the advantage of being able to one-shot with whatever attack he happens to choose from his gigantic pool (many of which have such stupidly massive area-of-effect that Kratos might not be able to wholly dodge even with his immense speed.) So, what are his options...?
> Block/swat away a Limbo clone. This is an awful idea, as the raw force behind it compared to Kratos would shatter his arm, possibly stagger him briefly, and as a consequence of these two things very possibly get him merced before he has a chance to reposition/recover/what have you.
> Throw out some AoE energy attack. With the immense AP difference, this fails to do more than singe Madara's coat, but let's say for the sake of argument that he threw out his Poseidon's Rage, which evidently can atomize people it hits.
I am... very skeptical of this being some kind of molecular hax, as the description of it mentions nothing of the sort. To use an example of what I'm getting at-
Raiden, in Metal Gear Rising, has a High-Frequency Blade which explicitly seperates the molecular bonds of physical matter it is swung at. This can be considered molecular hax. Poseidon's Rage, on the other hand, seems to simply be an AP feat that we consider vaporizing due to how it appears- it mentions nothing about specifically targeting the molecular bonds of its targets or anything of the sort. So, we have no reason to assume it can vaporize people above his weight class, let alone hundreds of thousands of times so.
> Time Manipulate via the Amulet of Uroboros. It's questionable whether or not it'd be able to pierce Susano'o I think, but assuming it does Madara full well might not dodge it even with the extra distance he's got, and would probably be his best bet for regaining his old speed advantage.
> Wail away at Susano'o... not working. At most, he might snatch a bit of AP/Dura.
> GTFOing out of there before Madara does something crazy. Kratos generally behaves like a berserker out for blood rather than developing complex strategies, this doesn't seem in-character.
> Using Petrify. Again, assuming Madara doesn't react to it with Precog. following by Izanagi-cheat death, and its not blocked by the gigantic Susano'o chakra wall between him and Kratos, this'd definitely be his best bet, as Madara lacks Transmutation Resist iirc. However, this also seems out-of-character, as Kratos enjoys killing his foes in spectacularly brutal fashions if it can be chosen over anything else. Plus- correct me if I'm wrong- don't most GoW bosses resist Petrify? He'd probably assume the same holds here, against this "ultra-boss", as it were- and not bother trying, I would imagine.
> Something else to the tune of one of these things.
And if he's dodging all five attackers in the middle of all of this, still, and the Truth-Seeking Orbs that have just been passively flying out this whole time deleting everything they touch (a little NLF-baity, I know, but it definitely ought to work on beings weaker than him), then Madara's next attack would be... not one of his strongest things, certainly, but probably either Wood Dragon or Great Fire Destruction. The AoE on both skills being as massive as they are, and the danmaku hell Madara's set up at this point, make it a good deal more likely than not that Kratos is getting clipped by something or other, and with the AP difference even getting clipped once is likely the end of it on its own.
...after the battle, of course, Kratos's self-ressurection would begin to kick in, but I don't really doubt Madara would be able to see that happening either. The first listed power of the Sharingan is it's ability to perceive the flow of Chakra- both spiritual energy (i.e. souls/psyche) and physical energy, and what binds the two together. He would definitely be able to see that Kratos's spirit is beginning to resurrect itself, promptly begin to take the battle utterly seriously because self-resurrection is kind of a big deal in the Naruto-verse as far as how much of a threat its considered, last I checked, and proceed to Human Path/Naraka Path to incapacitate for at least long enough to count as a victory, or Preta Path and disperse his chakra that way (preventing the spiritual/physical energies from properly reconnecting with one another)... etc.
Yes, Kratos has Resistance to Soul Manip. to at least partially stop that from happening, and to Power Null so that Madara can't just throw out Chakra Chains and fix the problem that way, but all things considered I see the fight going to Madara at least 7, maybe 8 of 10 times. Even if Madara can't stop him from coming back forever via Power of conceptual Hope-et cetera, he certainly can long enough to call it a win and go run off to somewhere else.
P.S.: I'm pretty sure saying that the Blade of Olympus would just eat Susano'o on contact is also NLF, since it's based on similar logic to the Blades of Exile thing.
P.P.S.: If Kratos started with a ranged attack like, say, Apollo's Bow, Ice of Poseidon, etc., it's probably not going to turn out any better. Kratos's hax don't work that well at range, and with the AP difference it'd just be like shooting nerf darts at a mildly aggravated steel wall. Madara would have time to set up a bit more and/or toss out a Lightning Dispatch or Chibaku Tensei as a show of force, Kratos would get pissed and close the distance upon realizing that range isn't exactly his game to play in this match-up (assuming he doesn't get nuked from orbit like a dumbass, which I wouldn't expect to happen), and it likely proceeds from there as prior described.
So, yeah. That' smy argument I guess.
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I mean.
Fighting 6 opponents doesn't mean much if you can just blitz them all.
Fighting 6 opponents doesn't mean much if you can just blitz them all.
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...Jesus f*%#, this has to be my longest thread comment since Dante vs Ragna was a thing
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@Perp Dante vs Ragna was longer than Madara vs Swain? ovo
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My longest comment, not necessarily longest thread
Unless I had some gigantic comment then I've forgotten about? Idk, I remember being the one who made that thread myself, maybe I'm misremembering.
Unless I had some gigantic comment then I've forgotten about? Idk, I remember being the one who made that thread myself, maybe I'm misremembering.
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I still don't understand how Madara will think let alone react to something hundreds of times faster.
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...Kratos's not hundreds of times faster though
He's ten to fifteen times faster, about, and being constantly stared down by the Tsukuyomi would probably also distract him a bit, I'd think (unless you'd argue that's just range? It'd still scale to the potency of a focused Genjustu)
And gravity manipulation would also slow, on top of that... if Madara's fighting someone obviously faster than him, he'd bridge the gap if at all able, yeah?
He's ten to fifteen times faster, about, and being constantly stared down by the Tsukuyomi would probably also distract him a bit, I'd think (unless you'd argue that's just range? It'd still scale to the potency of a focused Genjustu)
And gravity manipulation would also slow, on top of that... if Madara's fighting someone obviously faster than him, he'd bridge the gap if at all able, yeah?
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Okay not hundreds of times faster
But over 10x is a blitz.
But over 10x is a blitz.
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...I don't feel like typing for a solid half-hour straight again, so I'll just say "yes, but", and leave the above comment to speak for itself as to how that can be overcome in this particular instance.
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Fair enough.
Inconclusive for now
Inconclusive for now
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Perpetual did convince me with that comment...
Guess I'll change to inconsclusive too, for the time being unless Kep has something else to offer ovo
Guess I'll change to inconsclusive too, for the time being
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Wait, how Kratos is gonna fight Madara's Rinbo Hengoku ? Can he sense them ?
A defensive formation of 4 Shadows + Madara himself would be useful to counter Kratos' speed
A defensive formation of 4 Shadows + Madara himself would be useful to counter Kratos' speed
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Change to Inconclusive for Perpetuals reasons
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> People changing their vote before I post a counter
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As I expected, it's mostly due to lack of knowledge on the God of War background lore (not to offend anyone, the God of War background lore is obscure, so it's understandable)
I will reply.
I will reply.
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Switching my vote to Madar I'm sorry but no matter how many times faster he is at how many times he attacks Madar by the time he can even decently harm him Kratos will be extremely low on stamina and his speed will eventually decrease to the point where Madar can one-shot. Not to mention the fact that Madar couse just use the Rinnegan to pull Kratos towards him...
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> Pulling Kratos towards him
Worst mistake of his entire life.
Plus, Madara doesn't have anything that can kill Kratos. We have already established this.
I'm still debunking Perp's post, so wait for it.
Worst mistake of his entire life.
Plus, Madara doesn't have anything that can kill Kratos. We have already established this.
I'm still debunking Perp's post, so wait for it.
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Not really. Nothing Kratos can do will ever harm him, and even if he has Dura ignoring attacks unless he's been able to harm Low 5-B's with them assuming he can is just the highest form of NLF.
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> Nothing Kratos can do will ever harm him,
Except the countless methods I described on my OP.
Except the countless methods I described on my OP.
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mma go with madara fra, especialy with omnidirectonal attacks, sensing and precogniton allowing him to feel .
and obviusly clones
and obviusly clones
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Kratos is scaling to Helios right? Who is unquantifiably High 6-A, usually we would only place the baseline for such things so that would be 1.855604e25 Joules. Meanwhile Madara scales to a 7.48975e30 joules calc.
7.48975e30/1.855604e25 = 403628.684
So Madara's durability is 403628.684x Kratos AP. How is saying that any dura negating hax method being capable of harming Madara not NLF when he's over 400,000× more powerful?
7.48975e30/1.855604e25 = 403628.684
So Madara's durability is 403628.684x Kratos AP. How is saying that any dura negating hax method being capable of harming Madara not NLF when he's over 400,000× more powerful?
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i belive its the petrification and soul suking, tho soul sucking neds to owherwhelm the enemy if what they said above was trueRinkakuKagune said:
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I'm still writing the debunk post.
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i belive its the petrification and soul suking, tho soul sucking neds to owherwhelm the enemy if what they said above was true
Pertrification still follows the NLF and if you yourself have said the Soul Sucking requires him to overpower the enemy...yeah well thats not happening at all.
Pertrification still follows the NLF and if you yourself have said the Soul Sucking requires him to overpower the enemy...yeah well thats not happening at all.
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Petrification works on anyone who doesn't have resistance here.
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Also, Madara's complete lack of means of killing Kratos for good means this fight isn't going to him. At the very best, it's an Inconclusive.
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petrification works for 10 seconds and bypasses dura, so no, ap wont change this. thouGH i dont know if it changes hes dura
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@Ricsi
It does.
Wait for my post. I can say this fight is at best an Inconclusive for Madara, though. He has no means of putting Kratos down with his resurrection.
It does.
Wait for my post. I can say this fight is at best an Inconclusive for Madara, though. He has no means of putting Kratos down with his resurrection.
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Taken right from our pages.
16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF) This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."
You can easily say that yes Petrification works on anybody without resistance but unless they has shown the ability to harm characters much more powerful than them you cannot just assume it will work.
16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF) This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."
You can easily say that yes Petrification works on anybody without resistance but unless they has shown the ability to harm characters much more powerful than them you cannot just assume it will work.
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he can restrict for 24 hours, put him into the zetsu transformator (how good is hes resictence? cuz unless its better than a planetary illusion that works on everything , even the ones with resictences, its be an nlf to say he can take it)Kepekley23 said:
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