Koichi Hirose vs The Spy

[JustANormalLemon]

Evidence? There isn't really any skill feats on the profile.

The revolver is a Weapon with effective 100 meters of range that's was made to be usedin It's mediun range to bellow, what would give It around 50 meters, spy is proficient and trained in this gun and It's variants, including the embassador, a gun made to be effective with headshoots and almost useless other wise. I accept if you don't considere this enough as I'm too tired to look for scans at the moment, the only other thing I could say would be that ion It's original releasse the embassador Headshoot damage was so good at long range that was one of the best ways to play spy, finishing of enemies tring to run away

Knowing they exist and knowing which one is out, what they're doing, where they are, etc is a completely different thing, given they, too, are invisible, always.
They don't make sound, can't be seen and can even fly and phase, for all intents and purposes, they have the better stealth physiology.

You say all he has to do is wait for a good opportunity, but when would that be? What if Koichi shuts himself off in a building and lays traps? And in that same vain, why can't Koichi do the same?
It was said that uncloaking makes an audible sound ealier in the thread, why wouldn't that tip the Stands off to his presence?
Koichi doesn't kill so that's useless, he'll cripple or incap, Act 1's Empath Manip for example, if struck, Spy has no way around it and would basically just give up.

Well, as said before spy has ways to keep It self invisible indefinetly, and diferent from Koich the entire spy is invisible while koich him self isn't, and if Spy knows koich is looking for him PK should make him aware that his stand is far away what has been show to be a problem before, not to mention Spy can diguisse him self as a random person that dosn't even live in Morio to hide him self where every one can see, playing the long game

I didn't say he survived a donut, in fact, I said that's like the only thing we've seen actually put him down. It being a surprise attack doesn't mean much if the Stands spot him from 100m away pulling out a gun to shoot or whatever, reminder, Koichi has used them before to go 50m into the air to scan his surroundings for a large distance, in fact, he's done so in every major fight he's been in from Yukako, to Kira.
If he unveils himself and doesn't actually kill Koichi, all he did was reveal his location and now Koichi is gunning for him.

Spy would be better off laying traps that aren't actually easy to spot while invisible and then **** off and wait for them to proc, maybe he could snipe him, but Morioh lacks any tall buildings and has a lot of closed-off buildings, or empty fields.
Which also begs the question, where in Morioh are they fighting? I doubt it'd be a populated area given Koichi wouldn't want to risk civilians getting involved so he'd probably move the fight away from crowded locations if possible.

If koich goes inside a building to try take cover and set traps Spy is a lot more wise in passing trough them, trough I need to say, he would have a hard time dealing with traps setted by act 2 he should be able to figure out a way to enter where no one would set traps (IDK like entering by the upper floor window or by the chimney)

I will admmit trough, If koich starts to guard a house with ACT 2 I will give my vote for him.

It's just strange to think he would use act 2 or 1 after getting act 3 sinse after act 3 we never saw the other acts again

About the killing part... that's not how dead ringer work, If spy is hurt in any way with the ead ringer in his hand a fake corpse of him will appear and he will go invisible intantly, like a lizard shadding It's tail off

Do crits matter? If he lands a solid blow on Koichi where it matters like the head or chest, a crit or not isn't really going to change much, and when it comes to the Stands, a crit or not isn't going to change the fact they can block it. Excluding Act 1 anyway.

They would make body shoots a lot more dangerous thanks to how much they multiply the damage of atacks

If The Spy starts at all within 50m of Koichi, he's going to have to get very lucky to escape him.
And if The Spy starts at all within field of view, he's going to have trouble slipping away even if he can turn invisible, doubly so as Koichi knows that invisibility as a power exists (Achtung Baby is a thing) and he knows due to PK that he has invisibility as a power.
Also I've been arguing under the assumption they start much further given at the 5m range Act 3 would just go brrr. And even a distance like this makes ti hard for stealth to be used.

Dead ring or imediatly cloaking should let him hide


To be honest I agree with most things you say, I tried to argue for spy but meh... having a invisible shield and a invisible invulnerable traking ghost makes things to dificult for spy... wait spy here also is in robot war tier and has the power ups and spell! **** this is a entire new can of worms to open now

he now can teleport, tranfear damage, sent plagues to Koich, etc... and even become invincible him self

Isnt Act 3's ability touch based? I dont remember

No, he can affect anything in 5 meters around him

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Magic Spells and Power Ups

Magic (Via Magic Spells), Fire Manipulation (with Fireball and Meteor Shower), Teleportation (with Shadow Leap), Invisibility (with Stealth), Explosion Manipulation (with Pumpkin MIRV), Summoning (with Skeleton Horde and Summon Monoculus), Electricity Manipulation (with Ball O' Lightning), Statistics Amplification and Size Manipulation (with Power Up), Invulnerability and Healing (with Overheal), Self-Healing (with Shadow leap, Blast Jump, Overheal, Stealth and Power Up), Regeneration (Unknown type) (with Regeneration, Vampire, and King), Damage Transferal with Reflect (80% of the damage dealt is reflected to the attacker), Disease Manipulation (Touching an enemy gives them the Plague), and Regeneration Negation (Block's King powerups regeneration), Status Effect Inducement (Supernova stuns all nearby players), Damage Reduction, Resistance to Disease Manipulation (with Resistance), Resistance to Damage Transferal (Resistance and Vampire give immunity to Reflect powerup)

Robot War upgrades and itens

Same as his base, Regeneration (Unknown type), Self-Healing with Health on Kill, Superior Durability Negation via Armor Penetration, Superior Technology Manipulation via Robot Sapper Power, Statistics Amplification (with Crits on Kill), Resistance to Fire Manipulation and Explosion Manipulation, Teleportation and Statistics Amplification with Teleport to Spawn Canteen (Teleports the user to spawn and gives a 5 second speed boost), Invulnerability with Become Ubercharged Canteen, Statistics Amplification with Become Crit Boosted Canteen, Immunity to Soul Manipulation (Due to the Medic surgically implanting himself with every other mercenary's soul)

I always forget this whem dicussing TF2

 

[DaReaperMan]

You know Monoculus is actually a powerful threat, since it upscales quite a bit from the mercs, if spy brings it out Koichi 8s dealing with repeated explosive shots and once defeated will BFR the hell out of Koichi

 

[JustANormalLemon]

spy wis by summoning a giant lazer shooting eye that explodes in piss

 

[Chariot190]

Isnt Act 3's ability touch based? I dont remember

It is, but he has a range of 5m, hence why at 5m, Spy getting clapped.

The revolver is a Weapon with effective 100 meters of range that's was made to be usedin It's mediun range to bellow, what would give It around 50 meters, spy is proficient and trained in this gun and It's variants, including the embassador, a gun made to be effective with headshoots and almost useless other wise. I accept if you don't considere this enough as I'm too tired to look for scans at the moment, the only other thing I could say would be that ion It's original releasse the embassador Headshoot damage was so good at long range that was one of the best ways to play spy, finishing of enemies tring to run away

I do not consider this enough, being able to use a gun a high range doesn't mean you're skilled enough to headshot from over 50m away with while accounting things like wind speeds, enemy movement, obstacles and just a bunch of other shit.

If you're talking about if a Player can do a headshot, while playing Spy, I don't really think that's reflective of canonical skill.

Well, as said before spy has ways to keep It self invisible indefinetly, and diferent from Koich the entire spy is invisible while koich him self isn't, and if Spy knows koich is looking for him PK should make him aware that his stand is far away what has been show to be a problem before, not to mention Spy can diguisse him self as a random person that dosn't even live in Morio to hide him self where every one can see, playing the long game

Bruh, Koichi isn't the problem. The Stands are, koichi himself isn't fighting. Koichi's Stands, two of which, have 50m movement, but they also actively use it to scan the environment by flying up high to look around for hundreds of meters.
PK does make him aware of the Stand, but it doesn't help him know where they are, what they're doing, which one is up, and so on.

Spy disguising himself, as previously established, is useless, Koichi knows he can do that, if Koichi sees someone loitering around, approaching his general direction, or pull out a gun he's going to know it's Spy.

Morioh isn't exactly a populated place, it has only about 50,000 residents, which seems like a lot, but if you've ever read the manga you'd know that unless it's the plaza really, Morioh is bordering on a ghost town, with maybe one or two pedestrians around, and sometimes none at all in the suburban parts, and none at all in places like the fields, capes, and more. Koichi is a swell lad, he's not going to fight in populated places as he wouldn't want to risk civilian causality, Koichi is liable to move the fight elsewhere.

If koich goes inside a building to try take cover and set traps Spy is a lot more wise in passing trough them, trough I need to say, he would have a hard time dealing with traps setted by act 2 he should be able to figure out a way to enter where no one would set traps (IDK like entering by the upper floor window or by the chimney)

Uh, my dude, Spy can't perceive the traps as the traps are made from Echoes' ability, and they aren't conventional, he can make simply touching anything a trap, Koichi could do something as simple as make it so touching a door and walking on steps activates a huge **** off explosions, electrocutes, or burns the dude.
Honestly, entering through some place like a chimney or window is dumb, that's not exactly not obvious, though, why are we assuming these houses have such a thing? Most of the houses in Morioh lack chimneys and windows sure,but that's a prime place to set a trap.

I will admmit trough, If koich starts to guard a house with ACT 2 I will give my vote for him.

He did so in his fight with Yukako. But here it's just a matter of knowing "stealth dude with gun".

It's just strange to think he would use act 2 or 1 after getting act 3 sinse after act 3 we never saw the other acts again

That's literally wrong though. We see him use Act 1/2 after getting Act 3, it's why we know he can select which one to use. This one isn't even a "well he probably could", he straight up has.

About the killing part... that's not how dead ringer work, If spy is hurt in any way with the ead ringer in his hand a fake corpse of him will appear and he will go invisible intantly, like a lizard shadding It's tail off

Well 1, Koichi knows about that, 2 Act 1 doesn't cause any physical damage, and Act 2's shit would probably leave more visible signs like steam anyway.

They would make body shoots a lot more dangerous thanks to how much they multiply the damage of atacks

Given I'm arguing unless he can snipe he probably won't be getting those off either, eh...

Dead ring or imediatly cloaking should let him hide

Not really, Koichi can just send his FTE movement Act 2 to cut him off if he starts within 50m at all, given FTE > Superhuman.
He ain't getting far given the movement discrepancy.

To be honest I agree with most things you say, I tried to argue for spy but meh... having a invisible shield and a invisible invulnerable traking ghost makes things to dificult for spy... wait spy here also is in robot war tier and has the power ups and spell! **** this is a entire new can of worms to open now

he now can teleport, tranfear damage, sent plagues to Koich, etc... and even become invincible him self

Ngl, it doesn't really matter what he has unless it's instant, or faster on the draw than Act 2 just going brr toward him and plastering SFX on him.
Probably makes it much harder, but starting within the effective range of a Stand is usually a death sentence. If neither had prior knowledge, at that point Spy would be cookin tho ngl.

No, he can affect anything in 5 meters around him

Nah it do be touched based. Needs contact, once contact has been made, the effect will stay active as long as they stay within 5m of him.

You know Monoculus is actually a powerful threat, since it upscales quite a bit from the mercs, if spy brings it out Koichi 8s dealing with repeated explosive shots and once defeated will BFR the hell out of Koichi

Koichi can spam explosive shots too tho, he can even control how big and powerful they are, from building sized to non-lethal book sized.

I will say Act 2 does have a pretty big drawback in its tail thing, but it can split apart for multiple shots. Act 1 has no such limit tho and can mold SFX out of nothing, though the SFX there is merely audio with some empath-esque effects.

 

[Comiphorous]

Would koichi even see the gun or knife be pulled out? His disguises usually disguise his equipment into another item to match with his disguise.

 

[Chariot190]

If that's the case, Koichi would know that's a thing due to PK, and seeing someone randomly whip out some wacky item in the middle of a street, or countryside is just as suspicious ngl.

That's assuming Koichi doesn't move the fight away from populated centers, which honestly isn't that hard given Morioh's suburban setting, at that point, any dude around would be suspect.

 

[TheGatememer]

I doubt Spy hitting his shots from a distance is gonna be an issue, since A: He's an expert assassin who has years of experience at minimum, and is probably one of the most skilled mercenaries on Team Fortress, and B: He has a revolver designed to be as accurate as a sniper rifle.

 

[Chariot190]

That's cool, but where the feats at?
Also, being as accurate as a sniper rifle doesn't mean much, even those can stray by whole inches from a distance and you need to properly account for it.
Being an expert assassin is cool, but without feats that's just a title, especially when he has tech that would allow anyone to do such a thing like invisibility.

 

[TheGatememer]

Sniper rifles in TF2 can accurately hit targets from 5 miles away, so Spy hitting a shot from a range of 20m isn't gonna be an issue, at all.

I mean, the dude's entire ordeal is being precise with his attacks, and abusing pressure points, whether it be through headshots or backstabs. Like to give an example, Spy was confident he could kill an entire room full of people with a knife that's the size of a toothpick. Unless you are incredibly precise with your attacks, there isn't anyway you could realistically kill someone with a knife of that size.

On top of all this, Spy has an ability that reduces bullet spread by 90%, so, uh yeah.

 

[Chariot190]

Sniper rifles in TF2 can accurately hit targets from 5 miles away, so Spy hitting a shot from a range of 20m isn't gonna be an issue, at all.

And he can hit a target exactly where he needs to, not just in gameplay, but actual lore, from such a distance? Especially given the profile doesn't even mention multi-km range with the highest listed being a mere 100m.

I mean, the dude's entire ordeal is being precise with his attacks, and abusing pressure points, whether it be through headshots or backstabs. Like to give an example, Spy was confident he could kill an entire room full of people with a knife that's the size of a toothpick. Unless you are incredibly precise with your attacks, there isn't anyway you could realistically kill someone with a knife of that size.

So I assume you can show some feats of his marksmanship then?
Being precise with a knife isn't the same being precise with firearms.

On top of all this, Spy has an ability that reduces bullet spread by 90%, so, uh yeah.

Sounds like something more to do with a shotgun or what not.

Literally none of this matters though, it's as if everyone is just ignoring that Echoes exists and can't block a bullet, or just outspeed, cut off and intercept Spy given the starting distance.

 

[TheGatememer]

And he can hit a target exactly where he needs to, not just in gameplay, but actual lore, from such a distance? Especially given the profile doesn't even mention multi-km range with the highest listed being a mere 100m.

He has comparable skill to Sniper, who was going to do exactly that in lore, so yes. It's going to be changed later in a CRT.

So I assume you can show some feats of his marksmanship then?
Being precise with a knife isn't the same being precise with firearms.

Unless you count scaling to Sniper as a feat, there aren't many clips of Spy using a gun, but that doesn't really matter. It doesn't really need to be said that someone with years of experience can reliably hit a target from 20 meters away, especially with a gun that is stated to be precise, and having an ability that reduces spread by 90% on top of that.
Unless you can prove Spy is an incompetent **** with his gun, he's probably not going to miss lol

Sounds like something more to do with a shotgun or what not.

It applies to all guns.

Literally none of this matters though, it's as if everyone is just ignoring that Echoes exists and can't block a bullet, or just outspeed, cut off and intercept Spy given the starting distance.

Speed is equal, so the most Echoes can do is take a shot for Koichi, which will in turn also damage Koichi, especially considering bullets pierce, and the fact that Spy has higher AP. Spy has passive amps to his speed as well, and Spy can increase his speed even further if he fakes his death, or uses a spell, if need be. Though, I doubt Spy is going to immediately run away, since he wouldn't be able to see the murder ghost rapidly approaching his direction.

Also, out of curiousity, can stands bleed?

 

[Chariot190]

He has comparable skill to Sniper, who was going to do exactly that in lore, so yes. It's going to be changed later in a CRT.

Based on what exactly?

Unless you count scaling to Sniper as a feat, there aren't many clips of Spy using a gun, but that doesn't really matter.

I don't really count it as anything unless they explicitly say "oh yeah, in terms of marksmanship he's equal to this dude". Random "they're just as skilled" without clarification means nothing and could be in anything.

It doesn't really need to be said that someone with years of experience can reliably hit a target from 20 meters away,

My dude, if he tries to shoot from 20m away he loses, his shot gets bodyblocked by the noncorporal entity he can not harm, and then gets railed by it. He's gonna want to **** off and try and snipe, not try and shoot a dude that has an invisible ghost buddy that'll just deflect the bullet and then fly over and incap The Spy because he decided to waste his time firing a useless shot instead of escaping and playing it smart. And even if he does that, he's in for the fight of his life trying to escape an invisible ghost that has 50m manifestation while he starts within 20m of it, who has higher movement speed and flight.

especially with a gun that is stated to be precise, and having an ability that reduces spread by 90% on top of that.

At 20m, that is going to do nothing, not because he can't hit, but because ghost.

Unless you can prove Spy is an incompetent **** with his gun, he's probably not going to miss lol

It isn't on me to prove he's incompetent, but on you to prove he's competent. This has "well you cant prove he's NOT [thing here]" energy.

 

[TheGatememer]

Based on what exactly?

I don't really count it as anything unless they explicitly say "oh yeah, in terms of marksmanship he's equal to this dude". Random "they're just as skilled" without clarification means nothing and could be in anything.

Something something Spy has fought sniper a ton of times throughout the Gravel War, and killed each other a number of times, but like I said, Spy's accuracy is a non-issue in this fight.

My dude, if he tries to shoot from 20m away he loses, his shot gets bodyblocked by the noncorporal entity he can not harm, and then gets railed by it. He's gonna want to **** off and try and snipe, not try and shoot a dude that has an invisible ghost buddy that'll just deflect the bullet and then fly over and incap The Spy because he decided to waste his time firing a useless shot instead of escaping and playing it smart. And even if he does that, he's in for the fight of his life trying to escape an invisible ghost that has 50m manifestation while he starts within 20m of it, who has higher movement speed and flight.

At 20m, that is going to do nothing, not because he can't hit, but because ghost.

**** forgot the whole deal with Stands can only hurt stands.

He's not going to instantly lose to Echoes the moment it catches up to him. Spy has higher dura, on demand invulnerability and self-healing, as well as passive healing, and can fake his own death via the Dead Ringer, which he can use to leave behind a fake corpse, and increase his speed for a short period of time.

Again, I don't know why you keep saying Echoes has higher movement speed, since this is a speed equalized match where Spy has passive amps to his speed, and can increase his speed even further with certain abilities.

Funny enough, Echoes being invisible also kinda works against him, since if Spy uses either, or both of his summons, the summons will target Koichi, and not Echoes. In which case, Echoes will be forced to either keep pursuing spy and risk letting a giant eyeball shooting explosives kill Koichi, or Echoes can switch targets, which will in turn allow Spy to once again turn his focus towards killing Koichi while Echoes is distracted.

Alternatively, Spy can just run away for a bit, then teleport back to his starting location and shoot Koichi while he's defenseless.

It isn't on me to prove he's incompetent, but on you to prove he's competent. This has "well you cant prove he's NOT [thing here]" energy.

Why would I need to prove someone with at least 8 years of experience, has a gun that's stated to be precise as a weapon that can hit from 5 miles away, and has an ability that reduces basically all bullet spread, would be able to hit someone from 20-50m etc away? I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that Spy's accuracy is gonna be an issue.

 

[TheGatememer]

Wait shit didn't read that both have prior knowledge, this could change the way Spy approaches the fight, since he now knows that an invisible, invincible ghost is going to be chasing him down.

 

[Chariot190]

Something something Spy has fought sniper a ton of times throughout the Gravel War, and killed each other a number of times, but like I said, Spy's accuracy is a non-issue in this fight.

So based on nothing then. This is a non-argument, how does killing a sniper translate to being as skilled as a sniper in terms of marksmanship?

He's not going to instantly lose to Echoes the moment it catches up to him. Spy has higher dura, on demand invulnerability and self-healing, as well as passive healing, and can fake his own death via the Dead Ringer, which he can use to leave behind a fake corpse, and increase his speed for a short period of time.

Oh yes he will, between Echoes Commands, which he has no resistance towards and is thus basically an instant loss, to explosions that scale relatively to Spy anyway which Echoes can shoot multiple of (which Spy cant dodge because he cant percieve them), to things like electrocution or burning, which he has no resistance to, etc.
If Echoes gets him, he loses, he can't escape it, he can't fight it, he can't even see to dodge it, he just gets wailed on till he's ko'd or told to **** off via SFX.

Healing is cool, but then Echoes just hits him again, and again, and again, or just uses a SFX to incap him.

Dead Ringer is useless, Koichi knows it's a thing, he's not going to fall for such an obvious ploy if he knows it exists, which he does thanks to OP, his speed being increased needs to surpass Echoes Act 2's movement speed, which based on what I'm seeing on the profile, ain't gonna cut it.

Again, I don't know why you keep saying Echoes has higher movement speed, since this is a speed equalized match where Spy has passive amps to his speed, and can increase his speed even further with certain abilities.

Because speed is equalized to combat speed, and the other stats are lowered or risen comparatively. Echoes Act 2 has higher movement speed than The Spy, ergo, Act ain't outrunning Act 2 between flight and higher movement.

Having speed amps doesn't help if those amps don't actually push him above Act 2's movement, which as said, looking at the profile, doesn't seem to be the case.

Funny enough, Echoes being invisible also kinda works against him, since if Spy uses either, or both of his summons, the summons will target Koichi, and not Echoes. In which case, Echoes will be forced to either keep pursuing spy and risk letting a giant eyeball shooting explosives kill Koichi, or Echoes can switch targets, which will in turn allow Spy to once again turn his focus towards killing Koichi while Echoes is distracted.

Gets incapped by Act 1 which has no limit to the amount of SFX it can conjur.
As mentioned, Act 2 is fast, quite fast, moving 50m to floor spy, back to Koichi, and back again ain't unreasonable, especially if the summons have to actually cross that distance to reach Koichi as well.

I would also like to point out, what makes you think Spy is going to have a chance to use all this? You keep going "well he could do this" or "he has that", but is he really going to be able to get off and use this list of moves before Act 2, or even 1 just rolls up on him?

Alternatively, Spy can just run away for a bit, then teleport back to his starting location and shoot Koichi while he's defenseless.

How. To run away, he must be faster than Act 2's movement, which he is not.
Koichi is never going to be defenseless, especially if Koichi knows he can teleport, like I can not stress enough how ******* useless a gun is against a Stand, the fact you think a Stand that can actually reach the shooter, and is faster than him, even in speed equal, is somehow getting the time to take aim, and fire, a headshot or something against a dude who themselves can just dodge a bullet from a distance, well I don't know what to tell you.

Why would I need to prove someone with at least 8 years of experience, has a gun that's stated to be precise as a weapon that can hit from 5 miles away, and has an ability that reduces basically all bullet spread, would be able to hit someone from 20-50m etc away? I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that Spy's accuracy is gonna be an issue.

Because that's how the wiki works? You can't just say "oh he can do this", without actually having a feat, like statement or a feat close to such ok, but all you've said is "he has experience" and "he killed a sniper" or "he's an assassin" (the latter especially as he has lots of good ways to do that without sniping) neither of which mean much by themselves.
My dude, once again, if the spy actually tries to fight Koichi within 20-50m, he loses, nocap, his shots won't land, and have fun taking aim while being attacked by something you can't even see or sense or dodge or hurt or etc.

The issue is if Spy can hit a target from 50m+ away, in a spot that would be lethal, based on feats, nobody is saying he can't aim and shoot from 20m away, even I can do that, but he really doesn't wanna stick around within that 20m.

Having a gun with an effective range that can hit targets from such a distance is cool, but even snipers irl can (some anyway), you still need to account for conditions tho, having an ability that reduces spread by 90% is cool, but 90% ain't 100%.

Wait shit didn't read that both have prior knowledge, this could change the way Spy approaches the fight, since he now knows that an invisible, invincible ghost is going to be chasing him down.

And that's also why none of The Spy's invisibility, fake corpses, and so on are going to work to let him get away or close, and why the invisible ghost just rolls up immediately. Honestly, Koichi could just have Act 2 preoccupy The Spy in the time it takes him to cover 20m (so about 1.5 seconds) and then just have Echoes go Act 3 and plant The Spy into the ground.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Considering RN Koichi has unknown movement/combat speed cause his profile sucks, the acts are effectively equalized

 

[Chariot190]

No? Koichi doesn't have movement listed (it's like 40 to 60kmph btw), but all the Acts do (They have generalized speed). So not sure what you're talking about.
The Stands also get equalized comparatively in terms of combat speed as well, so all but Act 1 is fast as **** here because they're all way above Koichi's combat speed, the profile even mentions Act 2 and 3 blitz him and that's something you started in regards to stands >>> main body even in speed equal.
If Koichi and Spy's combat speed gets equalized, and every other stat relative to that, my argument holds true even with Koichi's mid af profile.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No? Koichi doesn't have movement listed (it's like 40 to 60kmph btw), but all the Acts do (They have generalized speed). So not sure what you're talking about.
The Stands also get equalized comparatively in terms of combat speed as well, so all but Act 1 is fast as **** here because they're all way above Koichi's combat speed, the profile even mentions Act 2 and 3 blitz him and that's something you started in regards to stands >>> main body even in speed equal.
If Koichi and Spy's combat speed gets equalized, and every other stat relative to that, my argument holds true even with Koichi's mid af profile.

Except right now, Koichi has unknown combat speed, so his everything gets equalized becuase his profile's speed section is hot garbage

 

[Chariot190]

Literally not how it works though, the profile even specifies that it's his reactions that are fast, and even specifies both Stands are blitz worthy above him.

For argument's sake, let's say that if Koichi is unknown and gets equalized to Spy in every facet from his reactions, combat and movement, that doesn't change the fact both Stands are explicitly noted and accepted to be blitzing Koichi, who is getting equalized.
If anything that just makes it more concrete as if his reactions also get equalized due to nonspecification, that all but confirms his Stand's blitzing here as you just said, all of Koichi's speeds will be equalized the exact same, ergo, Stands > Koichi, thus fast here.

Even working with a lack of speed options listed, this doesn't change Act 2 or 3 blitzing here, let's not pretend otherwise you started this anyway

 

[TheGatememer]

Oh yes he will, between Echoes Commands, which he has no resistance towards and is thus basically an instant loss,

I'm assuming you're referring to his sound manip? If so, I don't see how it's an instant loss, unless it can produce sounds above what Spy normally deals with from his guns, which produces 140-160 dB. Spy also deals with mic spammers on a regular basis so this is nothing new for him

to explosions that scale relatively to Spy anyway

Spy resists Explosions, and Spy scaled to that explosion when he didn't have any of his resistances.

which Echoes can shoot multiple of (which Spy cant dodge because he cant percieve them), to things like electrocution or burning, which he has no resistance to, etc.

Spy resists fire, and he can heal from that.

Healing is cool, but then Echoes just hits him again, and again, and again, or just uses a SFX to incap him.

Then Spy keeps healing, makes himself invulnerable, or teleports tf out. Better yet, Spy can just let Echoes keep hitting him, since 80% of the damage Echoes deals to Spy will be reflected onto Echoes, and in turn Koichi.

Because speed is equalized to combat speed, and the other stats are lowered or risen comparatively. Echoes Act 2 has higher movement speed than The Spy, ergo, Act ain't outrunning Act 2 between flight and higher movement. Having speed amps doesn't help if those amps don't actually push him above Act 2's movement, which as said, looking at the profile, doesn't seem to be the case.

So his speed would be 30,000 m/s or smthing? Don't know how this works tbh since Act 1's speed is just normal human

Gets incapped by Act 1 which has no limit to the amount of SFX it can conjur.

Which is also insanely slow compared to the other Acts, and as such, Spy would actually be able to get away from it.

As mentioned, Act 2 is fast, quite fast, moving 50m to floor spy, back to Koichi, and back again ain't unreasonable, especially if the summons have to actually cross that distance to reach Koichi as well.

Good luck actually killing his summons, since Monoculus scales far above Spy in AP and Dura. Echoes is going to have to be dealing with 3 skeletons chasing after Koichi, a giant Eyeball bombarding him with explosives, and Spy either using his spells, or shooting his rapid fire revolver, which can fire like 10 shots a second because of his upgrades + powerups.

I would also like to point out, what makes you think Spy is going to have a chance to use all this? You keep going "well he could do this" or "he has that", but is he really going to be able to get off and use this list of moves before Act 2, or even 1 just rolls up on him?

Because they take like a second to pull off, and Echoes isn't going to want to be dealing any kind of damage from Spy, unless he wants Koichi to also take that damage.

Koichi is never going to be defenseless, especially if Koichi knows he can teleport, like I can not stress enough how ******* useless a gun is against a Stand, the fact you think a Stand that can actually reach the shooter, and is faster than him, even in speed equal, is somehow getting the time to take aim, and fire, a headshot or something against a dude who themselves can just dodge a bullet from a distance, well I don't know what to tell you.

If it was just a guy with a normal gun, maybe. But we're talking about a dude with a rapid-fire revolver which fires shots capable of blitzing that dude, who is/can be backed up by skeletons, and a Eyeball constantly firing explosives. Since Echoes combat speed is equalized, it isn't gonna be able to stop every single attack.

Because that's how the wiki works? You can't just say "oh he can do this", without actually having a feat, like statement or a feat close to such ok, but all you've said is "he has experience" and "he killed a sniper" or "he's an assassin" (the latter especially as he has lots of good ways to do that without sniping) neither of which mean much by themselves.

You're the one who brought up the argument of Spy not being able to hit someone well within his effective range, so it's on you to prove it. Missing once or twice isn't a big deal when his revolver can fire really fast anyhow.

Having a gun with an effective range that can hit targets from such a distance is cool, but even snipers irl can (some anyway), you still need to account for conditions tho, having an ability that reduces spread by 90% is cool, but 90% ain't 100%.

It's a gun that's already stated to be precise having it's spread reduced by 90%.

and then just have Echoes go Act 3 and plant The Spy into the ground.

Not gonna happen with his Class 5 LS.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Spy should be Peak Human LS scaling to Engi cause scaling to Heavy is sus as ****

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also 160 decibels isn't even enough to kill, that's 190-200 decibels

 

[JustANormalLemon]

It is, but he has a range of 5m, hence why at 5m, Spy getting clapped

Nah it do be touched based. Needs contact, once contact has been made, the effect will stay active as long as they stay within 5m of him.

Nop

 

[Chariot190]

I'm assuming you're referring to his sound manip? If so, I don't see how it's an instant loss, unless it can produce sounds above what Spy normally deals with from his guns, which produces 140-160 dB. Spy also deals with mic spammers on a regular basis so this is nothing new for him

I'm referring to telepathy, it can cause pain, people to follow the commands and effect mental states.
You have to be lowkey ******* insane to just ignore it like Yukako did, or utterly delusional.

Spy resists Explosions, and Spy scaled to that explosion when he didn't have any of his resistances.

Spy doesn't resist shit, I ain't seeing "resistance to explosions" anywhere on his profile. Unless you just mean he can tank explosions, which, while cool, isn't a resistance, that's a durability thing.

Spy resists fire, and he can heal from that.

I didn't say fire, I said burning, Act 2 can cause a SFX like sizzle or whatnot, that when contact is made with it, causes burning. It burns through supernatural means, not fire.
He can heal from it, and then he does it again, or he cranks it up, or he etc, etc, etc. Why are you acting like the Stand is just gonna sit there and let him do whatever?

Then Spy keeps healing, makes himself invulnerable, or teleports tf out. Better yet, Spy can just let Echoes keep hitting him, since 80% of the damage Echoes deals to Spy will be reflected onto Echoes, and in turn Koichi.

koichi, quite literally has dealt with attack reflection before brother, and ahs even had his own attacks reflected back to him 1:1, Koichi pulls enough to cripple, incap, KO, not kill. And, as with everything else, Koichi would know about this, so why would he not use something more abstract instead of pure damage?
To further that, can this even reflect back unconventional damage?

So his speed would be 30,000 m/s or smthing? Don't know how this works tbh since Act 1's speed is just normal human

Act 2 is not, in fact it's at least subsonic, possibly rel. And it's the Stand with 50m range as well, and flight, and most of the versatile options. It's just it can swap between Act 1 as well.
That, would be how it works.

Koichi can swap between Stand Act's, though Act 3 is only allowed within 5m.

Which is also insanely slow compared to the other Acts, and as such, Spy would actually be able to get away from it.

See above.
also lmao no he wouldnt, he wouldnt even know where it is, and Koichi obviously isn't leading off with that, not withstanding Act 1 has projectiles, an unlimited amount he can conjur up and throw as well, or place onto things

Good luck actually killing his summons, since Monoculus scales far above Spy in AP and Dura. Echoes is going to have to be dealing with 3 skeletons chasing after Koichi, a giant Eyeball bombarding him with explosives, and Spy either using his spells, or shooting his rapid fire revolver, which can fire like 10 shots a second because of his upgrades + powerups.

Doesn't need to kill them, he just needs to incap them, or empath hax, or drive them mad, or etc. Or hell blow them away. He doesn't need to throw hands with them.

And again, why in the actual **** do you think Spy is getting all this off within like literal first second the match starts? Because that's how fast he's gonna need to because, again, Act 2 just rolls up on him immediately. Can Spy get all these off while being ragdolled, tossed around, blown up and more without any respite?
And 10 shots is nothing, stand go brrr.

Because they take like a second to pull off, and Echoes isn't going to want to be dealing any kind of damage from Spy, unless he wants Koichi to also take that damage.

He has other ways to deal with him. Not withstanding if he can even reflect back unconventional properties.

You're the one who brought up the argument of Spy not being able to hit someone well within his effective range, so it's on you to prove it. Missing once or twice isn't a big deal when his revolver can fire really fast anyhow.

I bring it up because the Stand can just block them. Like come on, don't strawman the most basic argument here.

So no, it's on you to actually bring up some skill and marksman feats instead of just going "well he can", because he ain't hitting shit due to the Stand.

If it was just a guy with a normal gun, maybe. But we're talking about a dude with a rapid-fire revolver which fires shots capable of blitzing that dude, who is/can be backed up by skeletons, and a Eyeball constantly firing explosives. Since Echoes combat speed is equalized, it isn't gonna be able to stop every single attack.

Implying he even gets all this off within, quite literally, less than a second from his perspective.
And wrong again, it's Koichi's combat speed that gets equalized, not the Stand's, you can blame Reaper for that one. Act 2 and 3 are blitz-worth speed here due to upscaling off Koichi himself.

It's a gun that's already stated to be precise having it's spread reduced by 90%.

And I'm telling you to post an actual marksman feat, a gun being precise or even 90% reduction, doesn't mean it's infalliable, an actual example would be nice.

Not gonna happen with his Class 5 LS.

Uh, Act 3 has accepted Class K calcs, I'm not talking about the Stand's LS, but it's ability to increase gravity by literally hundreds of times. The gravity would be what plants him in the ground.

So I'll ask again, what's stopping Koichi from just whipping out Act 2, and Spy having to figure out what to do against the invincible Stand that's attacking him in the 1 second it takes Koichi to roll up and 3 Freeze him. Or even just Act 1 tbh.

Nop

Fair enough.
pretty inconsistent though given his fight with Kira & SHA, Enigma, Black Sabbath, Gio, had him make contact first though I guess you could argue he stopped the car from a distance or he just learned how to do it at range eventually.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually here's a question, is this shit even passive? The profile words it all as if he has to use these things, like the magic and spells.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Actually here's a question, is this shit even passive? The profile words it all as if he has to use these things, like the magic and spells.

Yes, the MVM upgrades are passive

 

[Chariot190]

Which is just Robot War right?
why doesnt spy have a notable technique section explaining any of his shit, even koichi has one, lackluster that it is

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, and this is his Robot War key so... yeh

 

[DaReaperMan]

why doesnt spy have a notable technique section explaining any of his shit, even koichi has one, lackluster that it is

Becuase folks are more worried about tiering then actually making the profiles good

To be fair I'm not exempt from that, I have a CRT to get rid of the Classic team's 9-A scaling sans C!Pyro and C!Heavy

 

[Chariot190]

Please point out which abilities are passive, and thought based too.
All his abilities, give or take a few say "via [item]", which leads me to think they require an item to use (duh), or in the case of magic, needing to actually use a spell.

Some obviously seem passive, like random crits, healing upon killing, crits on kill, regen (which isnt specified at all...), and the resistances, it's just that everything else isn't coming off as such to me in how it's worded.

Kinda need to know what items or hax he can use in any situation basically, or are automatic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I can only really speak for MvM but there's other shit I know

Crit, Uber, ammo, and Return to base canteens are thought-based, the rest are passive For MvM or just shit he uses normally being improved

ALL spells are activated with a handwave, and can't speak for powerups

 

[Chariot190]

Does he have a limit to these items? Or does he have an infinite amount?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

speak for powerups

Most are tecnically passive, not one of them need to be activated sinse they mostly apply effects over alread existing atacks, just the like of plague would need contact, but none need to be really activated, so passive

 

[DaReaperMan]

Does he have a limit to these items? Or does he have an infinite amount?

Canteens are 3 of each, I'm unsure on spells

 

[JustANormalLemon]

As I know they have 1 of each cantine with 3 uses each

Canteens are 3 of each, I'm unsure on spells

Aparently are a single magic book that they can use magic from It if they have It in hands

 

[Chariot190]

Given Koichi has prior knowledge, the only real problematic shit I'm seeing is some of the spells, but if they're gesture based why can't Act 2 just attack his hands at the start of the match? Long enough for Koichi to cross a 15m gap (which ain't gonna take even a full second), and have Act 2 become Act 3 to sweep?
That alone prevents damage transfer, healing, and summoning. Teleportation being thought based I can see being an issue, but it's only an issue if the spawn point is far away, if the place the match starts is treated as the spawn, it doesn't actually do anything or get him away from 3 Freeze's short range.

While it's true that Spy has prior knowledge, idk what he can really do about it, the main issue at play here is Echoes, but he can't see Echoes, he can't damage Echoes, he can't even hear Echoes move around, and he starts within its range,

As I know they have 1 of each cantine with 3 uses each

Aparently are a single magic book that they can use magic from It if they have It in hands

Reading through that, it looks like each spell has only 1 or 2 uses, requires an item to be used as well.
why are we assuming Spy has like fifty books and potions in this match that need to be picked up and aren't apart of a standard kit, that sounds more like optional equipment to me
Not only that, it seems he can only have one spell at a time, excluding rare ones, but rare ones only have one use.
So I'm gonna have to ask, which spell does OP have Spy equipped with in this match? He can't have them all simultaneously, and he obviously isn't gonna be able to pick up mofre due to battlefield location.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

This is a fine-looking spellbook, but it's still missing pages! Once it has enough pages, you'll be able to equip it and use it to cast spells.

Empty fancy spell book description

This is a fine-looking spellbook, full of pages you've collected. But one can never have enough magic...

Fancy spell book description

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Reading through that, it looks like each spell has only 1 or 2 uses, requires an item to be used as well.
why are we assuming Spy has like fifty books and potions in this match that need to be picked up and aren't apart of a standard kit, that sounds more like optional equipment to me

This is mostly game mechanics sinse their descriptions It self state they only need to have the pages in the book to use the speels

 

[Chariot190]

This is mostly game mechanics sinse their descriptions It self state they only need to have the pages in the book to use the speels

My dude, almost all of this is game mechanics.
What makes some game mechanics ok but others not?

Also some pretty sus stuff in there lads like "Unlike the real MONOCULUS, the one created by this spell will not move." or "If not destroyed, skeletons suicide after 30 seconds have passed." A lot of this really doesn't come off as an issue.