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Koichi Hirose vs The Spy

DaReaperMan said:
How fast can Koichi run? How fast can he throw a punch or dash?

If, by looking at the profile, you can't answer that, you see my problem.
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Yes yes, but considering Koich has a invisible indestructable shield, why whould he need to run or daash instead of doing a defensive aproch? (Not saying isn't bad how the profile is, just questioning why It's so relevant here)

And punching isn't comparable to reaction speed?
 
JustANormalLemon said:
Yes yes, but considering Koich has a invisible indestructable shield, why whould he need to run or daash instead of doing a defensive aproch? (Not saying isn't bad how the profile is, just questioning why It's so relevant here)

And punching isn't comparable to reaction speed?
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Because, without anything on the profile, for all we know for the match the faster acts are comparable to Koichi himself, IE Speed Equal does a number on him.

Here's a verse full of characters who are Rela+ but have FTL Reactions. Someone having faster reactions then their combat speed is not exactly uncommon you know, even folks like Ash have that
 
Tring to find good movement speed feats for echos at the moment, the best untill now beingh that he should be at least as fast as Kira SHA but not much more
 
Either way if Koichi catches Spy out chances are Spy dies, so it's a question of will he see through Spy's disguise before Spy backstabs him, and I don't think he will do it more then 50% of the time since Spy's deceit skills would've fooled Classic Sniper while disguising as a close friend of his(Classic Sniper's) if he couldn't literally see through disguises and even walls and shit
 
Act 3 is Rel all around. Act 2 has at least FTE movement though (Act 1 is garbage tho).
Koichi is just peak human outside of reactions (scales to Josuke and stuff, has kept up with him while running), but he also doesn't run, punch, etc himself in a fight and never will.

Koichi though ain't dumb, if he's fighting an enemy that uses stealth or is going to try and sneak attack him, Koichi does have ways around that, for example, he can plaster SFX onto himself, so when an enemy tries to touch him the SFX will activate and attack them, something he did against Yukako where upon grabbing Koichi, the SFX he used on himself triggered and blew up her hair, blowing apart Love Deluxe and launching her away.
He also set up traps in the vicinity like making it so if she touched the door or steps she'd be burned or shocked.

His Stand also has 50m AOE and is good at recon, if it sees someone approaching Koichi that's acting a bit sus, it should be able to warn him, though ACT 3 can't do that, as it's limited to just 5m, his other two can.

It depends on how much Koichi knows going into this, if he knows he's fighting someone and they're sneaky, he has the tools to get around it, but if he doesn't know that he's fighting a sneaky mf, he might not use his kit properly.
 
Chariot190 said:
It depends on how much Koichi knows going into this, if he knows he's fighting someone and they're sneaky, he has the tools to get around it, but if he doesn't know that he's fighting a sneaky mf, he might not use his kit properly.
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Which is excactly why I was flip-flopping so much earlier.
 
Chariot190 said:
His Stand also has 50m AOE and is good at recon, if it sees someone approaching Koichi that's acting a bit sus, it should be able to warn him, though ACT 3 can't do that, as it's limited to just 5m, his other two can.
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Eh, like i said Spy already would've deceived Classic Sniper if he couldn't see through disguises anyway, and Spy at the time was disguising as Classic Engineer, one of C!Sniper's close friends, so I'd say that Koichi doesn't have much of a chance of noticing someone sus at that distance
 
That's kind of a false equivalence though. The spy mimicking someone's close friend, something that I'd assume lowered his guard, isn't the same as Echoes just going "hey bro, someone's approaching for some reason" and Koichi knowing he's in a fight and thus, anyone or anything approaching him will be treated with caution, even the most unsuspecting person kinda learned that with Kira, it's less about a person being sus, and more the fact a person is approaching his vicinity at all for no real apparent reason, that act itself is the sus factor.
Not to mention, The Spy is gonna be hard-pressed to actually workaround and avoid being spotted by Echoes as it's imperceptible to him, Echoes could be 50m above him in the sky, or right in his face planting SFX on him, and he'd never know. Like there's a chance Echoes somehow just doesn't spot him, but that's entirely luck and a matter of "he simply wasnt look that way at that specific time and by the time he looked back the spy luckily moved elsewhere".
JustANormalLemon said:
How if Koich is in directly in teh reciving end of the Josuke 9-B feat?... wtf
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He's on the end of receiving end of multiple 9-B feats, 10-A is a placeholder, literally just because they haven't been calculated and blogged completely yet, everyone knows he's 9-B (in durability, not AP), but we ain't gonna update him without the calcs first basically Jotaro, Josuke and Kira scale btw, doesn't matter much tho because Spy is 9-A so it doesn't effect the match.
 
Chariot190 said:
That's kind of a false equivalence though. The spy mimicking someone's close friend, something that I'd assume lowered his guard, isn't the same as Echoes just going "hey bro, someone's approaching for some reason" and Koichi knowing he's in a fight and thus, anyone or anything approaching him will be treated with caution, even the most unsuspecting person kinda learned that with Kira, it's less about a person being sus, and more the fact a person is approaching his vicinity at all for no real apparent reason, that act itself is the sus factor.
Not to mention, The Spy is gonna be hard-pressed to actually workaround and avoid being spotted by Echoes as it's imperceptible to him, Echoes could be 50m above him in the sky, or right in his face planting SFX on him, and he'd never know. Like there's a chance Echoes somehow just doesn't spot him, but that's entirely luck and a matter of "he simply wasnt look that way at that specific time and by the time he looked back the spy luckily moved elsewhere".
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As I've said about 5 times, Classic Sniper Saw through it BECAUSE he can see through the tech it takes to disguise, so unless quite literally nobody walks the streets of Morioh at all ever, Spy has a very good chance of deceiving Koichi with a disguise, especially since Koichi knows what spy looks like in the first place, unless Koichi goes around killing everyone who gets anywhere near him, Spy can get close enough to just backstab him
 
There's litterally only two people here in 2fort. Koichi should suspect Spy as an enemy and at leats stay on guard even if the latter is disguised.
 
CrackerVolley said:
There's litterally only two people here in 2fort. Koichi should suspect Spy as an enemy and at leats stay on guard even if the latter is disguised.
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This is in Morioh. Not 2fort.

Also why the hell wasn't the starting distance changed? 5 meters still lets Koichi just pancake Spy with gravity
 
Comiphorous said:
Hear me out what if spy uses his time out of sight to get pictures of himself having intercourse with koichi’s mom, therefore winning by leaving koichi utterly flabbergasted. 🤨🤨🤨🤨
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To be fair... Scout is Spy's only confirmed kin, meaning he's a bit of a womanizer, but he's not THAT much of a womanizer
 
DaReaperMan said:
As I've said about 5 times, Classic Sniper Saw through it BECAUSE he can see through the tech it takes to disguise, so unless quite literally nobody walks the streets of Morioh at all ever, Spy has a very good chance of deceiving Koichi with a disguise, especially since Koichi knows what spy looks like in the first place, unless Koichi goes around killing everyone who gets anywhere near him, Spy can get close enough to just backstab him
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What? That literally doesn't matter though, Koichi isn't going to let anyone get close to him, it doesn't matter if he's disguised or not, he's going to be cautious of everyone. This isn't even a match specific thing, that's just a general thing basically all Stand Users do, even someone like Shigechi knows that much and he's definitely handicapped
Koichi doesn't need to go around killing everyone, he just needs to avoid everyone or incap, Spy has to come to him, not the other way around, Spy isn't sneaking up on Koichi with a disguise because it quite frankly doesn't matter what he's disguised as, Koichi won't let anyone get close to him, and if someone tries, they're probably the spy and get incapped, and if not, well they'll live untill the real spy tries to stealth him, given Act 1 can use its ability without restriction on how many times it can be used and on how many people, an ability Spy has no resistance toward either.

Plus as mentioned, Spy is gonna have trouble avoiding Act 1/2's scouting, Koichi is going to know if some stranger is coming towards his general direction for some reason, little bit sus ngl. Moment Spy comes within 50m, he's in Stand Range and can be attacked or incapped, his best is unironically the gun I think as that outranges Koichi's abilities, but that runs the risk of just being dodged or blocked while also signaling to Koichi his general location.
 
Chariot190 said:
What? That literally doesn't matter though, Koichi isn't going to let anyone get close to him, it doesn't matter if he's disguised or not, he's going to be cautious of everyone. This isn't even a match specific thing, that's just a general thing basically all Stand Users do, even someone like Shigechi knows that much and he's definitely handicapped
Koichi doesn't need to go around killing everyone, he just needs to avoid everyone or incap, Spy has to come to him, not the other way around, Spy isn't sneaking up on Koichi with a disguise because it quite frankly doesn't matter what he's disguised as, Koichi won't let anyone get close to him, and if someone tries, they're probably the spy and get incapped, and if not, well they'll live untill the real spy tries to stealth him, given Act 1 can use its ability without restriction on how many times it can be used and on how many people, an ability Spy has no resistance toward either.
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I would like to see Koichi incapping anyone who gets near him sans, ya know, close friends like Josuke
 
DaReaperMan said:
I would like to see Koichi incapping anyone who gets near him sans, ya know, close friends like Josuke
Click to expand...
Brother, you and me both know there's never been a fight like this with koichi, don't ask for the impossible as if that somehow discredits what I've been saying, but that doesn't mean Koichi is suddenly dumb as shit and will let people get close to him knowing he's in a fight, especially knowing his foe's abilities (Because don't forget, they both have prior knowledge, but unlike Spy, Koichi can actually work around something as simple as a disguise).
That's actual insanity, Koichi has used his abilities on people the moment they've gotten close to him before though like against Yukako, he can even just create omnidirectional gusts of winds to blow people away, set traps, or as mentioned if anyone makes contact with him, get blown to hell.

The only conceivable way The Spy is getting close enough to stealth is if Koichi just decides to throw all his experience out the window, not use any of his abilities, and disregard what he's been taught by Jotaro, Josuke, and has learned first-hand in regards to enemy Stands and Stand Users.

The Spy disguising himself is a useless tactic, you're arguing he has to get close to Koichi, but the mere act of approaching Koichi while he's in a fight is a suspicious action in and of itself, he doesn't need to kill people, he can just use Act 1 to command them to go away, if it's a normal person they will, or he himself can just move away from a crowded area which to be fair, ain't hard, Morioh ain't that populated and most places aren't packed in the slightest, he could even just enter a building and wait, setting up SFX on doors or what not so Spy can't get to him without attacking, a tactic he employed against Yukako (The omnidirectional wind above was pasted on a door, when she touched it she was blown away).

Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
And then gunning him down with the ambassador
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What's stopping Act 3 from just blocking it? It's a gun, it ain't exactly subtle.
 
Chariot190 said:
Brother, you and me both know there's never been a fight like this with koichi, don't ask for the impossible as if that somehow discredits what I've been saying, but that doesn't mean Koichi is suddenly dumb as shit and will let people get close to him knowing he's in a fight, especially knowing his foe's abilities (Because don't forget, they both have prior knowledge, but unlike Spy, Koichi can actually work around something as simple as a disguise).
That's actual insanity, Koichi has used his abilities on people the moment they've gotten close to him before though like against Yukako, he can even just create omnidirectional gusts of winds to blow people away, set traps, or as mentioned if anyone makes contact with him, get blown to hell.

The only conceivable way The Spy is getting close enough to stealth is if Koichi just decides to throw all his experience out the window, not use any of his abilities, and disregard what he's been taught by Jotaro, Josuke, and has learned first-hand in regards to enemy Stands and Stand Users.

The Spy disguising himself is a useless tactic, you're arguing he has to get close to Koichi, but the mere act of approaching Koichi while he's in a fight is a suspicious action in and of itself, he doesn't need to kill people, he can just use Act 1 to command them to go away, if it's a normal person they will, or he himself can just move away from a crowded area which to be fair, ain't hard, Morioh ain't that populated and most places aren't packed in the slightest, he could even just enter a building and wait, setting up SFX on doors or what not so Spy can't get to him without attacking, a tactic he employed against Yukako (The omnidirectional wind above was pasted on a door, when she touched it she was blown away).


What's stopping Act 3 from just blocking it? It's a gun, it ain't exactly subtle.
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So you're arguing stomp match then, is that it?

Spy can shoot from 100 meters out if he has to, bullets are pretty small
 
DaReaperMan said:
So you're arguing stomp match then, is that it?

Spy can shoot from 100 meters out if he has to, bullets are pretty small
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I'm arguing The Spy is gonna need to do more than just slap a disguise on, does his weapon have any silencers? That way Act 2 or 3 can't just pinpoint him after the shot and casually block it, or just see some dude in the distance whip out a gun and start taking aim. Or does Spy set traps up? If he can set a trap for Koichi instead of going to him directly, that'd make more sense.
The bullets might be small, but Koichi is the posterboy of "stand is way the **** faster than the user", even in speed equal, where the gun is gonna be faster than Koichi and Spy, Koichi's Stands will be as well (In that scan above, even Act 2 is FTE to Koichi, and Act 3 seems to teleport from his perspective DBZ-style and is literally floored from its speed).

100 meters is in fact out of Koichi's range tho, depending on the gun that could be problematic.
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
Ambassador is the best option since headshot + crit = 1 dead school kid
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Would have to be a headshot or something, anywhere else and Koichi can probably powerthrough it as long as it ain't hitting the heart or whatever hell koichi survived being punched through the torso for a good minute, even if it was ultimately fatal if not for josuke.
 
Chariot190 said:
I'm arguing The Spy is gonna need to do more than just slap a disguise on, does his weapon have any silencers? That way Act 2 or 3 can't just pinpoint him after the shot and casually block it, or just see some dude in the distance whip out a gun and start taking aim. Or does Spy set traps up? If he can set a trap for Koichi instead of going to him directly, that'd make more sense.
The bullets might be small, but Koichi is the posterboy of "stand is way the **** faster than the user", even in speed equal, where the gun is gonna be faster than Koichi and Spy, Koichi's Stands will be as well (In that scan above, even Act 2 is FTE to Koichi, and Act 3 seems to teleport from his perspective DBZ-style and is literally floored from its speed).

100 meters is in fact out of Koichi's range tho, depending on the gun that could be problematic.

Would have to be a headshot or something, anywhere else and Koichi can probably powerthrough it as long as it ain't hitting the heart or whatever hell koichi survived being punched through the torso for a good minute, even if it was ultimately fatal if not for josuke.
Click to expand...
Spy just has like 3 or 4 revolvers, and like, one gun that uses some obscure ass tiny round for it's barrel width to work, so it's likely gonna be a revolver
 
Chariot190 said:
Would have to be a headshot or something, anywhere else and Koichi can probably powerthrough it as long as it ain't hitting the heart or whatever hell koichi survived being punched through the torso for a good minute, even if it was ultimately fatal if not for josuke.
Click to expand...
To be fair Spy does have good enough aim for that (Would be kinda useless the embassador existing in his cannon if he couldn't do accurate shoots)

I will vote spy If we spreed them more them 5 meter and give the spy the "hiden" advantage, can totally see him just sneaking around and gunning koich by surprise and seeing as the reliable guy does not have any way to really find the spy even a single shoot in the leg would probable eventually kill koich from blood loss
 
JustANormalLemon said:
To be fair Spy does have good enough aim for that (Would be kinda useless the embassador existing in his cannon if he couldn't do accurate shoots)

I will vote spy If we spreed them more them 5 meter and give the spy the "hiden" advantage, can totally see him just sneaking around and gunning koich by surprise and seeing as the reliable guy does not have any way to really find the spy even a single shoot in the leg would probable eventually kill koich from blood loss
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He has good enough aim to land a lethal blow from over 50m away?
Again, how, sneaking isn't gonna work, Act 1/2 is literally classified as reconnaissance Stands. they can cover 50m, can look from an aerial point of view to view the surroundings, etc. Sneaking up on Koichi simply isn't feasible, at all, and couple that with The Spy not being able to actually avoid Echoes' view given he doesn't even know where they'd be at any given time as they're imperceptible to him, this argument doesn't make sense in the slightest.
Finding The Spy really isn't that hard, disguise or not, just find someone who's hanging around, or approaching Koichi.

Or the dude who's pulling out a gun, that also works tbh.

A shot to the leg won't do shit, Koichi has dealt with far worse than just a stray bullet wound to the leg, hell he's had his back torn open even and continued fighting just fine. He's only ever gone down from actual fatal blows like stabbing through the neck or having his entire torso punched through.
Notwithstanding two of his Stands can just block a bullet with little issue and doing such a thing is liable to reveal The Spy's location.
 
Chariot190 said:
He has good enough aim to land a lethal blow from over 50m away?
Click to expand...
surprising but yes

Chariot190 said:
Again, how, sneaking isn't gonna work, Act 1/2 is literally classified as reconnaissance Stands. they can cover 50m, can look from an aerial point of view to view the surroundings, etc. Sneaking up on Koichi simply isn't feasible, at all, and couple that with The Spy not being able to actually avoid Echoes' view given he doesn't even know where they'd be at any given time as they're imperceptible to him, this argument doesn't make sense in the slightest.
Finding The Spy really isn't that hard, disguise or not, just find someone who's hanging around, or approaching Koichi.
Click to expand...
Always forget about act 1 and 2, but sinse spy know about them he could use the Cloak and Dagger to stay invisible, all he need to do is wait a good oportunity, uncloak, shoot and re cloak or get the Dead ringer in hand and wait to be "Killed" by koich ivisible ghost

Chariot190 said:
A shot to the leg won't do shit, Koichi has dealt with far worse than just a stray bullet wound to the leg, hell he's had his back torn open even and continued fighting just fine. He's only ever gone down from actual fatal blows like stabbing through the neck or having his entire torso punched through.
Notwithstanding two of his Stands can just block a bullet with little issue and doing such a thing is liable to reveal The Spy's location.
Click to expand...
Okay, I adimit I exagerated with the "Shoot in the leg" thing

and about he blocking the shoot, we are talking about a surprise shoot, even trough Koich survived getting donutted he would have died If he wasn't healed, all spy need is to keep cloaking and unkloaking with the likes of Cloak and Dagger to stay hidden and atack
 
JustANormalLemon said:
surprising but yes
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Evidence? There isn't really any skill feats on the profile.
JustANormalLemon said:
Always forget about act 1 and 2, but sinse spy know about them he could use the Cloak and Dagger to stay invisible, all he need to do is wait a good oportunity, uncloak, shoot and re cloak or get the Dead ringer in hand and wait to be "Killed" by koich ivisible ghost
Click to expand...
Knowing they exist and knowing which one is out, what they're doing, where they are, etc is a completely different thing, given they, too, are invisible, always.
They don't make sound, can't be seen and can even fly and phase, for all intents and purposes, they have the better stealth physiology.

You say all he has to do is wait for a good opportunity, but when would that be? What if Koichi shuts himself off in a building and lays traps? And in that same vain, why can't Koichi do the same?
It was said that uncloaking makes an audible sound ealier in the thread, why wouldn't that tip the Stands off to his presence?
Koichi doesn't kill so that's useless, he'll cripple or incap, Act 1's Empath Manip for example, if struck, Spy has no way around it and would basically just give up.
JustANormalLemon said:
and about he blocking the shoot, we are talking about a surprise shoot, even trough Koich survived getting donutted he would have died If he wasn't healed, all spy need is to keep cloaking and unkloaking with the likes of Cloak and Dagger to stay hidden and atack
Click to expand...
I didn't say he survived a donut, in fact, I said that's like the only thing we've seen actually put him down. It being a surprise attack doesn't mean much if the Stands spot him from 100m away pulling out a gun to shoot or whatever, reminder, Koichi has used them before to go 50m into the air to scan his surroundings for a large distance, in fact, he's done so in every major fight he's been in from Yukako, to Kira.
If he unveils himself and doesn't actually kill Koichi, all he did was reveal his location and now Koichi is gunning for him.

Spy would be better off laying traps that aren't actually easy to spot while invisible and then **** off and wait for them to proc, maybe he could snipe him, but Morioh lacks any tall buildings and has a lot of closed-off buildings, or empty fields.
Which also begs the question, where in Morioh are they fighting? I doubt it'd be a populated area given Koichi wouldn't want to risk civilians getting involved so he'd probably move the fight away from crowded locations if possible.
JustANormalLemon said:
Would sapping random eletronics in morio give Spy Diamondback crits?
Click to expand...
Do crits matter? If he lands a solid blow on Koichi where it matters like the head or chest, a crit or not isn't really going to change much, and when it comes to the Stands, a crit or not isn't going to change the fact they can block it. Excluding Act 1 anyway.
 
alright, sorry the late change in the prompt, I've been kinda tired lately and feel asleep. The distance is now 20 meters
 
If The Spy starts at all within 50m of Koichi, he's going to have to get very lucky to escape him.
And if The Spy starts at all within field of view, he's going to have trouble slipping away even if he can turn invisible, doubly so as Koichi knows that invisibility as a power exists (Achtung Baby is a thing) and he knows due to PK that he has invisibility as a power.
Also I've been arguing under the assumption they start much further given at the 5m range Act 3 would just go brrr. And even a distance like this makes ti hard for stealth to be used.
 
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