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Knuckles VS Tails (Knuckles: 5, Tails: 8, Inconclusive: 1) [[CONCLUDED]]

Dude, the Master Emerald isn't here, OP just confirmed, imagine that they transformed with those off screen then flew to battle without it
 
The OP didn't understand what the Master Emerald would bring to the fight (given he blatantly asked why Knuckles would need it) so i tried to explain.
 
GalacticIron said:
The OP didn't understand what the Master Emerald would bring to the fight (given he blatantly asked why Knuckles would need it) so i tried to explain.
Click to expand...
Imagine this scenario: Tails and Knuckles both have the Chaos Emerald and guard the Hidden Palace Zone and the Master Emerald (which is still irrelevant to the fight and they can't use it), and they turn both into their Super forms to keep the area safe. However, for unknown reason, a big argument happened between Tails and Knuckles and now they're fighting each other and would even kill if necessary (state of mind provided by SBA).

There, now you got how both turned Super and are fighting each other
 
Plus giving the Master Emerald would just make them fight in base, which would be counter intuitive to fighting in a super form, to just not do that
 
If neither of them have any ways to truely hurt eachother then wouldn't this match ultimately end up being inconclusive? I mean, as i said before Tails' gadgets won't last long enough to do anything because they simply weren't designed to combat beings of this level of power. If my knowledge on Sonic lore is on point enough, any machines powered by the emeralds were specifically designed to be, which isn't the case for anything Tails has made aside from a dimention-traveling device (which isn't combat aplicable). I mean, in theory Tails could design a device specifically to work with the emeralds, but he won't be able to do that without prep-time (and tbh, if prep-time were allowed then Knuckles would use the Master Emerald so i think it's only fair to not allow prep-time if Knux can't use the Master Emerald). I mean, for comparison, any machines created by people in the Robotnik family that were powered by the emeralds were specifically created to be, unlike any of Tails' inventions aside from the dimention-travel machine which isn combat aplicable.
 
No, it doesn't work like that, we already saw in canon super forms giving their energy to other beings, none of the machines were made designed to use the emeralds, plus Tails own super aura would be giving them their power, they don't need to built in purpose, plus they do have dura negating hax, it's only Tails would be more likely to use it
 
Sigh... If only Tails and Knux were more relevant in the recent games (aside from being Sonic's cheerleaders), I know it's unrelated to this thread but I wished they expanded on Tails being all tech support with his gadgets/gizmos while Knux is more into the mystical side of things with his knowledge of the ancient past and possibly magic... :/

Either way, I see this as inconclusive imo.
 
Yeah, i did vote for Knux, but after this whole debate i'll just switch to inconclusive. I mean, neither can really do much to the other as Tails' gadgets won't last long enough and Knuckles won't get past the invulnerabillity. Also before anyone brings Tails' ranged attacks up again, Knuckles has ranged attacks too and is willing to spam them in character if needed (as shown during his fight with Rouge in SA2 where he spams his thunder arrow through the whole fight).
 
Theuser789 said:
No, it doesn't work like that, we already saw in canon super forms giving their energy to other beings, none of the machines were made designed to use the emeralds, plus Tails own super aura would be giving them their power, they don't need to built in purpose, plus they do have dura negating hax, it's only Tails would be more likely to use it
Click to expand...
Oh yes it does. To compare him to Eggman again, we've astablished that Eggman can't harness the power of the emeralds without his machines and it's pretty clear that each of these machines was specifically designed ahead of time to use the energy of the emeralds. Also, looking throught both profiles again, Tails doesn't have hax that ignore durabillity so no he won't get past invulnerability (if you're talking about optional equipment, Tails has nothing there that Knuckles doesn't have and Knuckles will use it too if he needs to)
 
What? No, Tails has Void Manipulation and Transmutation, and that's all standard, plus I literaly explained before why Tails would use his hax first in my earlier comments

Again, Eggman needs machines because he by himself can't use Chaos Energy, but as seen in multiple games a super form can share energy with other things, so Tails can share with them, plus alot of Eggman's machines usef the emeralds without he needing to make the machines to use them, like Metal and Mecha, so that isn't a real thing

Tails would just share his energy like he does to his Flickies and Sonic did in Heroes and 06
 
Theuser789 said:
What? No, Tails has Void Manipulation and Transmutation, and that's all standard, plus I literaly explained before why Tails would use his hax first in my earlier comments

Again, Eggman needs machines because he by himself can't use Chaos Energy, but as seen in multiple games a super form can share energy with other things, so Tails can share with them, plus alot of Eggman's machines usef the emeralds without he needing to make the machines to use them, like Metal and Mecha, so that isn't a real thing

Tails would just share his energy like he does to his Flickies and Sonic did in Heroes and 06
Click to expand...
Actually, void and transmutaion are optional, just look on his profile. It doesn't even matter because Knuckles has those same hax and is willing to use them as well.

They can share energy with living beings, it's never been used to share with machines. Metal and Mecha Sonic are special cases because they were designed to adapt to their opponents (heck, in Mecha Sonic's case, he can't even use the energy for very long). Even if he could these machines are simply too frail to last long enough to help Tails and that will leave Tails without options that Knuckles can't replicate, which is where Knuckles' combat skill becomes more important again as he's just as willing to use these options as Tails is and has kept up with others who do far more consistantly then Tails has.
 
Theuser789 said:
Okay fine, I think Tails will win

In a battle of super forms Ap and how well you do in combat is irrelevant because of invulnerability, but Tails gadgets and Flickies can easily stun Knuckles away, and unlike Knuckles Tails is the type to go for the best way of beating a opponent by analysaying him, Tails will know everything Knuckles might do and analyse the best counterattack, Tails knows Wisps way more and for longer than Knuckles, so his more likely to use them

td.lr Tails wins because of more varied abilities, a more strategic mind, and more likelability to use hax, he will know a physical fight is pointless faster than Knuckles will
Click to expand...
Why are you ignoring my earlier comments? I literaly explained why Tails is more likely to use hax them Knuckles, even if they have the same equipment, combat skill helps in the physical fight, which is irrelevant because of invulnerability, Tails has been in as many fights as Knuckles and even more so than him

It's not like there's a diference in canon about those, and they have copying abilities doesn't matter about using Chaos Energy, you are creating to many assumptions and headcanons about simple things, by Occam's razor he would be able to share, because it requires the least assumptions

Plus those would give Tails the time to analyze the situation, all those attacks are worthless because of invulnerability, and Knuckles goes to physical blows way more than Tails

They aren't listed as optional in the profiles, the profiles barely have optional equipment in them in the first place, and even if they were that's wrong
 
They are listed in optional equipment, did you even bother to look at the profiles at all?

Oh yes there is a diffrence: in Sonic Heroes it was made clear that Metal Sonic could only use chaos energy because he copied data from Shadow and Froggy, the former having basically a perfect connection with the emeralds and the latter possesing some dna from Chaos. Tails never made machines that adaptable and even if he could he wouldn't get the time to prepare here which he needs to make such machines.

I'm not ignoring your comments i'm just comming up with counters. Knuckles has actually been in more fights then Tails and keeps up with heavy hitters far more consistently, it's the reason why Knuckles has a 5-A key while Tails doesn't. And again, Knuckles has shown that he's willing to use his hax and ranged attacks if he needs to, if Tails tries to stay out of his range Knuckles will adapt accordingly by spamming ranged attacks and hax like in his fight with Rouge in SA2. Also, physical combat isn't completely irelevant as Knuckles' uppercuts can negate durabillity, and since Knuckles knows about the invulnerability he's likely to use his durability ignoring hax.

Let me just say this: this fight has a ton of variables, Tails could win in some cases while Knuckles could win in others, this is why i decided to switch to inconclusive.
 
They are but they shouldn't

Because a machine by itself can't use it, but Tails is already using them, and they can share energy of the emeralds, and in Mania Adventures he used the emeralds as well

But those aren't counters, you aren't countering my argument about Tails using hax first and my reasoning, you are just saying no, Knuckles is only 5-A because we assume he scales to the modern cast, that's AP, not bigger experience, Tails has been following Sonic's adventures for more games than Knuckles

Thunder Arrow would do nothing because invulnerability and Tails has more ranged attacks
 
No point making a fuss about wether they should or shouldn't be optional, keep that stuff to content reversions.

You still have yet to give any proof that Tails' machines can use the energy of the emeralds, my point that they weren't designed to keep up with this level of power stands unless you can find definitive proof that they can be powered by the emeralds, as i've provided more evidence that they can't then you have that they can.

You're ignoring the bigger picture here: Knuckles has kept up with characters willing to use the same hax far more consistently then Tails has. Yes, Tails has been on Sonic's side longer, but Knuckles has been on the battlefield against heavy hitters far more consistently then Tails, just because Tails is by Sonic's side that doesn't mean he's always fighting alongside him as seen in more recent games. And again, even if Knuckles would preffer to fight up close (as i mentioned before, he has ranged options too and is willing to use them) he has actual durability negation outside of optional equipment that Tails doesn't since Knulkes' uppercut can negate durability.

Thunder Arrow and other ranged attacks can still be used as counters to Tails' ranged options even if they don'get past the invulnerability of Tails himself. Who has more ranged attacks doesn't matter much if both are willing to spam them.
 
GalacticIron said:
Thunder Arrow and other ranged attacks can still be used as counters to Tails' ranged options even if they don'get past the invulnerability of Tails himself. Who has more ranged attacks doesn't matter much if both are willing to spam them.
Click to expand...
You're still forgetting that Tails has his flickies that might not be able to damage Knuckles, but they can definitely distract him, especially since they attack on their own
 
Pretty sure you're not supposed to argue in favor of either side since you're the OP. And again, it doesn't really matter because Knuckles' powers are amped as well due to his ranged attacks comming from his connection to the Master Emerald. Yes i know Knuckles can't use the ME in this fight, but these powers use chaos energy so his superform does increase their power. The Flickies would help if Knuckles didn't have invulnerability, which renders any attacks that don't ignore durability moot.
 
I'm not arguing for either side. You just forgot about the flickies. I don't vote for any of them and I think that both can win, and both have durability negating haxes, so don't see me like I'm voting for Tails.
 
I didn't forget the Flickies, i just didn't bring them up because they are just not relevant to this fight because they can't get past the invulnerability.
 
There already were CRTs that already accepted what I said, the equipment of the characters is barebones

I did prove, I explained so, I brought examples, I done all of that, your evidence is just a bunch of headcanon or assumptions, that require way more jumps of logic that I provided, and using examples of beings that can't use Chaos Energy like Eggman

No he hasn't fought many people that would use hax, and even so Knuckles is the guy to physical fight first than any other character in the series, and he fighting people with higher AP is irrelevant to my argument, since Tails has also fought multiple enemies that use hax as well, Knuckles is only 5-A because he keeps up with Sonic in AP in modern games because he being strong was always his thing, while Tails has fought and seen way more enemies than Knuckles, plus Runners would make Tails 5-A anyways

Tails way of fighting would use his equipment way faster than Knuckles would, that's my entire point
 
None of what i said was headcanon, i pulled evidence from the games to support my arguments. If anything, the things you brought up require more assumptions as Tails' gear wasn't designed to keep up with this level of power and you have given no real proof that the emeralds could power them. Heck, even machines Eggman made specifically to be powered by the emeralds lack the invulnerability that the characters with superforms have, proving ever further that Tails' gadgets won't last against this level of power

Knuckles has fought people that spam their hax and range in character, the previously mentioned battle with Rouge also had her spam her ranged attacks. And as i said, Knuckles has shown that he's willing to spam special hax if he needs to, and since Tails lacks hax that Knuckles doesn't have Knuckles can easilly counter anything Tails throws at him by using the same abillities.
 
This is becoming extremely circular right now, we are just repeating ourselfs right now

We already laid out our arguments, so let's see which people will vote
 
Yeah. You two should both summarize your arguments to make it easier for people to understand both sides.

Anyway, I agree that it goes nowhere rigt now
 
Their stats are relatively the same, with Tails being canonically a bit faster while Knuckles is a bit stronger. Beyond this, Tails is smarter and has a wider arsenal plus similar abilities and some hax plus flight that's better than Knuckles's glide, but Knuckles has the better abilities and is more of a skilled fighter which could allow him to counter a good amount of Tails's repertoire.

I'd probably lean more towards Tails if I had to choose since he can spam stuff like Dummy Rings and a whole myriads of bombs from afar and has the better coverage via flight and better speeds to be able to make getaways and perform his own hax and spam. Plus, just because Knuckles has more versatily doesn't mean he can overwhelm Tails. Geokinesis is useless as a single tail swipe deal with the rocks. Hell, in character Knuclles never uses the ME to depower the Emeralds and the hax they can perform nor has he used the ME to empower himself beyond maybe one instance, but that's an outlier. There's also the fact that Tails can just steal the ME and even shatter it since he knows that's a viable strategy.

But like I said, Knuckles's persistence and powerful fighting skills can't be denied and this can allow him to handle most of what Tails can throw his way as well. If Knux was smart, he'd burrow in the ground to wait out Tails's flight, but that's not in character at all, and this is assuming Tails just doesn't throw a bomb down the hole he makes anyways.

I dunno. I guess I'll lean towards Tails, but if Knuckles lands one hit and can get close to Tails it would prove hard for Tails.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Their stats are relatively the same, with Tails being canonically a bit faster while Knuckles is a bit stronger. Beyond this, Tails is smarter and has a wider arsenal plus similar abilities and some hax plus flight that's better than Knuckles's glide, but Knuckles has the better abilities and is more of a skilled fighter which could allow him to counter a good amount of Tails's repertoire.

I'd probably lean more towards Tails if I had to choose since he can spam stuff like Dummy Rings and a whole myriads of bombs from afar and has the better coverage via flight and better speeds to be able to make getaways and perform his own hax and spam. Plus, just because Knuckles has more versatily doesn't mean he can overwhelm Tails. Geokinesis is useless as a single tail swipe deal with the rocks. Hell, in character Knuclles never uses the ME to depower the Emeralds and the hax they can perform nor has he used the ME to empower himself beyond maybe one instance, but that's an outlier. There's also the fact that Tails can just steal the ME and even shatter it since he knows that's a viable strategy.

But like I said, Knuckles's persistence and powerful fighting skills can't be denied and this can allow him to handle most of what Tails can throw his way as well. If Knux was smart, he'd burrow in the ground to wait out Tails's flight, but that's not in character at all, and this is assuming Tails just doesn't throw a bomb down the hole he makes anyways.

I dunno. I guess I'll lean towards Tails, but if Knuckles lands one hit and can get close to Tails it would prove hard for Tails.
Click to expand...
Speed is equalized so there is no speed diffrence here. Also, this is between superforms so Tails' bombs do nothing against invulnerabillity and it takes Tails' flight options away since Knuckles can also fly in his superform.
 
Both have invincibility, so neither of their standard attacks would work because of it. If one of them want to win, they'd have to use their durability negating haxes
 
Ok i'll just go and get my final thoughts out. Tails doesn't have a lot of options that Knuckles can't simply counterpick by using the same abillities because the gadgets are too frail to last against this level of power, especially since Knuckles is more powerfull then Tails. Yes invulnerabillity could be a alight issue, but Knuckles can negate durabillity with his uppercuts, technically giving him more options to get past invulnerabillity then Tails has. While Knuckles isn't as smart as Tails and can be rather gullible, he is by no means stupid and his greater skill and more consistent experience keeping up with the series' heavy hitters like Sonic and Shadow (Tails has very few fights with the former and said fights are usually in a less serious context like simple sparring matches compared to Knuckles having serious fights with him, while the only time Tails managed to fight Shadow without help from Sonic was when Shadow was wounded and hadn't fully recovered from his injuries) makes me believe he has the edge, and again, he has shown to be willing to spam special abillities if he needs to. I want to make clear that nobody is in the right or wrong for voting for either character as i believe this match-up has a lot of variables, but if you forced me to pick one of the two, i ultimately lean towards Knuckles. Considder that my final vote.
 
Gilad Hyperstar said:
Both have invincibility, so neither of their standard attacks would work because of it. If one of them want to win, they'd have to use their durability negating haxes
Click to expand...
I know, but he brought up those points that add nothing and contradict the rules and setting of the fight.
 
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