Klonoa Low 1-C and 2-A Upgrades

[Bobsican]

The series is considerably downplayed and even has a forgotten accepted CRT from over 5 years ago.

Anyways, the arguments and results are here, please discuss with an open mind.

 

[Shmooply]

Following for now.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

From that blog and previous CRTs of a similar nature, that would only be 2-A, not Low 1-C

 

[Bobsican]

May i ask how exactly? The argument leans into the "true form" of Klonoa being Low 1-C out of basically dreaming up the main setting and being the player, with the 2-A ratings for his avatar and others that'd scale.

 

[Everything12]

I'm going to have to disagree with Low 1-C. I personally think that instead of the conclusion that the Player dreams up the setting, it is more likely they just dreaming in the setting, which is why their dreams become adventures.

Basically, the world of dream existence is not dependent on the player and they simply enter the dreams as Klonoa when they fall asleep.

 

[Bobsican]

Not dependant on the player? Uh... Klonoa himself is called a dream that cannot be corrupted by nightmares, and at no point of the series is the true form threatened from whatever happens to what otherwise would be the main cosmology. The webcomic also goes rather explicit on Klonoa dreaming everything up.

 

[Everything12]

Not dependant on the player? Uh... Klonoa himself is called a dream that cannot be corrupted by nightmares, and at no point of the series is the true form threatened from whatever happens to what otherwise would be the main cosmology. The webcomic also goes rather explicit on Klonoa dreaming everything up.

So their exists dreams that aren't entire worlds, so that means that the line of thought that any mention of dream or nightmare = entire universe is false.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... as mentioned in the blog, the instruction manual indirectly calls the setting of the first game (where what I've linked in my previous post takes place) a universe.

Don't we rate a character as tier 1 if there's qualitative superiority in relation to what's considered as the main setting? The dreams are the main setting of the series and Klonoa's "true form" can manipulate them as much as explained in the webcomic.

 

[Everything12]

Uh... as mentioned in the blog, the instruction manual indirectly calls the setting of the first game (where what I've linked in my previous post takes place) a universe.

Don't we rate a character as tier 1 if there's qualitative superiority in relation to what's considered as the main setting? The dreams are the main setting of the series and Klonoa's "true form" can manipulate them as much as explained in the webcomic.

Where does the webcomic say that.

Two, just because Klonoa is dependent on the player, obviously as they are their avatar, doesn't mean a setting that they exist in as an outsider does. And a being creating something from their dreams is different from seeing something as nothing but a dream in comparison to themselves.

Three, the revelation that dreams and nightmares can be non-universal in size puts into question the 2-A feats that rely solely on the character manipulating, being powered, or threatening a large amount of dreams without proof that they are universe-sized dreams and not non-universe-sized dreams.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What exactly stops this from being the same as OMORI or Yume Nikki, where humans dream whole multiverses and use avatars to interact with these dream worlds, but are still 10-B in the True Self?

 

[Everything12]

"Gathers the power to dream and in turn gives shape to Phantomile." Is also different then saying Phantomile is the Nexus of all dreams throughout existence. Put me down for disagree to 2-A for that reasoning as well.

Or just put me down for a complete disagree for the all CRT, as the evidence presented does not match the conclusions that your summary is presenting for the CRT.

The player dreams of Klonoa, but Klona itself is stray dream that travels through dreams and belongs to no one dream. The dreams that Lola and Nahatomb manipulate aren't stated to be universe-sized ones, nor is Phantomile the nexus of all dreams across the multiverse.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

In Klonoa Heroes, Lolo is shown to have the power to gather all the dreams in the world. Garlen mentions shortly after the first link mentioned here that this is to have "unbeatable power", clearly correlating this to AP.

This should scale to AP

Nahatomb is also stated to have the power to consume all nightmares, which are shown as his darkness, and it's then stated that this darkness is endless, and should thus be infinite, because of this it should be 2-A, as even if there aren't infinite dreams (universes), it'd still have the capability to store as many, this kind of stuff has precedence like how Kingdom Hearts is rated as 2-A based on a similar kind of reasoning.

This is not 2-A, this is like saying if someone the size of an infinite universe consumes multiple other universes, he should be 2-A

Phantomile is the nexus of all dreams

It just says dreams will be turned into nightmares

So their exists dreams that aren't entire worlds, so that means that the line of thought that any mention of dream or nightmare = entire universe is false.

Agree with this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I definitely agree with the 2-B to 2-A stuff easily, though our standards on Low 1-C are admittedly inconsistent plus it's not something I'm too skilled at grasping. So I'm neutral on Low 1-C.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, I'm just going to answer from scratch for the sake of readability and to ensure everything is answered better while at it.

So their exists dreams that aren't entire worlds, so that means that the line of thought that any mention of dream or nightmare = entire universe is false.

No? This is just a bad interpretation of what's actually stated in the context. Ignoring that "dream" here isn't even meant to signify the dreams we explore and is more akin to a metaphor for Klonoa's bizarre and special nature as a Dream Traveler (unless you're implying that Klonoa is a universe, again, Phantomile is stated to be a universe and is also regarded as a dream), this doesn't disprove that dreams are universal in size.

The blog already details this and proves this, it's on you to suggest how this would debunk the general scope and size of a dream in Klonoa.

Where does the webcomic say that.

Hmmm... nevermind, however, the webcomic doesn't have to mention that though. The webcomic is canon, and in canon, dreams are universes, it's stated directly and anything outside of that is literal headcanon. You have yet to actually debunk the general sizes of dreams and are just using one statement that doesn't even pertain to the dreams we explore but Klonoa's nature.

Two, just because Klonoa is dependent on the player, obviously as they are their avatar, doesn't mean a setting that they exist in as an outsider does. And a being creating something from their dreams is different from seeing something as nothing but a dream in comparison to themselves.

Three, the revelation that dreams and nightmares can be non-universal in size puts into question the 2-A feats that rely solely on the character manipulating, being powered, or threatening a large amount of dreams without proof that they are universe-sized dreams and not non-universe-sized dreams.

Regarding the whole Player thing, we have no reason to ignore that. Klonoa is literally just an extension of The Player, like not some fictional player or similar, but the player that's playing the game. There's a major difference there and given how this wiki works, with Undertale being 5-D off the same principle, I see no reason why Klonoa is any different.

At worst, The Player in Klonoa is just vastly larger than a 2-A cosmology

"Gathers the power to dream and in turn gives shape to Phantomile." Is also different then saying Phantomile is the Nexus of all dreams throughout existence. Put me down for disagree to 2-A for that reasoning as well.

Or just put me down for a complete disagree for the all CRT, as the evidence presented does not match the conclusions that your summary is presenting for the CRT.

The player dreams of Klonoa, but Klona itself is stray dream that travels through dreams and belongs to no one dream. The dreams that Lola and Nahatomb manipulate aren't stated to be universe-sized ones, nor is Phantomile the nexus of all dreams across the multiverse.

Your arguments doesn't debunk the evidence, so either way, you don't have an argument here and thus your declination is kinda questionable here. Please tackle the meat of the argument with substantial evidence as opposed to using one-off statements for a character's nature and associating it with something that explicitly is differentiated in universe.

Since when was it a standard that they had to be mentioned to be universal in size? It's arbitrary to say otherwise as the blog provides evidence that dreams are universes. For this to be the case, you have to prove that dreams aren't universes, as otherwise this is a headcanon argument and irrelevant.

Also Phantomile being the nexus point of all dreams is supported by the context. It's literally where all dreams go, as stated in the game itself, to say otherwise is ignoring on-screen statements in favor of delusions.

This is not 2-A, this is like saying if someone the size of an infinite universe consumes multiple other universes, he should be 2-A

Thing is that the darkness came from Nahatomb, and it's stated that he was going to consume them all, in fact all his darkness vanished after being defeated. While he may not have consumed all of them out of Lolo holding the dreams from him, the fact that Lolo can empower the Wind Ring, and Klonoa eventually outgrowing the need to have her empowering to use it beforehand are more feats supporting 2-A.

It just says dreams will be turned into nightmares

"gathers the power to dream and in turn shapes Phantomile"
If you want more direct statements, there's this:

Agree with this

There's also the setting of Heroes being called a universe, if you want more consistency on that
On that note, as mentioned in the blog, dreams being universes is already accepted from a previous CRT everyone just forgot to apply.

 

[Everything12]

Regarding the whole Player thing, we have no reason to ignore that. Klonoa is literally just an extension of The Player, like not some fictional player or similar, but the player that's playing the game. There's a major difference there and given how this wiki works, with Undertale being 5-D off the same principle, I see no reason why Klonoa is any different.

The Player in Undertale isn't 5D though.

 

[Bobsican]

The Player in Undertale isn't 5D though.

Oh, my bad, however...

The Player should possess an ontological superiority to the rest of the verse as it's fictional in the perspective of the Player, which we can also deduce since The Player in Klonoa is just literally the same player that's playing the game.

This is further supported with the book, which basically holds Phantomile (a 2-A structure) as merely a page in the larger structure that'd be the book itself. Additionally, this further implies that it's no different from a lower-dimensional universe embedded into an higher dimension (similarly to DMC's case for Tier 1 on the site).

I'm also going to quote from the TS FAQ:

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh, my bad, however...

The Player should possess an ontological superiority to the rest of the verse as it's fictional in the perspective of the Player, which we can also deduce since The Player in Klonoa is just literally the same player that's playing the game.

This is further supported with the book, which basically holds Phantomile (a 2-A structure) as merely a page in the larger structure that'd be the book itself. Additionally, this further implies that it's no different from a lower-dimensional universe embedded into an higher dimension (similarly to DMC's case for Tier 1 on the site).

I'm also going to quote from the TS FAQ:

What exactly stops this from being the same as OMORI or Yume Nikki, where humans dream whole multiverses and use avatars to interact with these dream worlds, but are still 10-B in the True Self?

Uhm...

 

[StrymULTRA]

The thing is that the Player shouldn't just be "I see these things as dreams so I must be R>F over them." Because they also need to prove to be actually superior to those, showcasing this actual superiority about hierarcy. Otherwise is like those 2 verses where the True Self just can access those worlds from dreaming, given the lack of proof of said superiority.

 

[Reiner04]

Agree with 2B not sure of 2A as it states that "darkness extended infinitely" which obviously is not same as infinite.

 

[Armorchompy]

Why would... any of this scale to stats? Someone having tier 2 ED and then being said to be very strong is the weakest argument for scaling I've ever heard.

 

[Reiner04]

Why would... any of this scale to stats? Someone having tier 2 ED and then being said to be very strong is the weakest argument for scaling I've ever heard.

Nahatomb was stated to have the power to consume all nightmares (with priestess soul).

 

[Armorchompy]

... And? That's still ED, especially if he needs a special item to do it

 

[Reiner04]

... And? That's still ED, especially if he needs a special item to do it

Well, true , OP might explain then how will it scale to their stats (if it's even the case).

 

[Rokim21]

While I'm not too sure on how high this might quantify, in the webcomic Klonoa does have the feat of surviving LOTS of dreams exploding in his face.

 

[Reiner04]

While I'm not too sure on how high this might quantify, in the webcomic Klonoa does have the feat of surviving LOTS of dreams exploding in his face.

Can you link the chapter? It had be better with context

 

[StrymULTRA]

While I'm not too sure on how high this might quantify, in the webcomic Klonoa does have the feat of surviving LOTS of dreams exploding in his face.

Assuming each dream is an universe it would be 2-B.

 

[Reiner04]

Assuming each dream is an universe it would be 2-B.

It doesn't state that those universes exploded tho, it just states that those dreams unleashed, simply means that all those created. Can it even contribute to AP?

 

[StrymULTRA]

It doesn't state that those universes exploded tho, it just states that those dreams unleashed, simply means that all those created. Can it even contribute to AP?

It sounded like Big Bang stuff tho.

 

[Reiner04]

It sounded like Big Bang stuff tho.

I read this chapter just now, it wasn't a kind of distruction or creation (bigbang) energy but just a missile of nightmares distroyed the order of dreams which caused all streams of dreams to get unstable and flows randomly and klona used that flow to go into different world.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I read this chapter just now, it wasn't a kind of distruction or creation (bigbang) energy but just a missile of nightmares distroyed the order of dreams which caused all streams of dreams to get unstable and flows randomly and klona used that flow to go into different world.

Lmao.

 

[Armorchompy]

Assuming each dream is an universe it would be 2-B.

wouldn't that be Low 2-C x a lot? It's just a lot of individual explosions all happening at once

Though further context makes that sus too yeah

 

[StrymULTRA]

wouldn't that be Low 2-C x a lot? It's just a lot of individual explosions all happening at once

Technically is because we treat things as absorbing universes as 2-C at minimum, and most of the time multiversal busting happens through an explosion-like attack across all of them at once.

 

[Reiner04]

Here, they are just random stream energy coming from the hole created by missile which caused their order to get destroyed, these streams aren't harmful at all and hasn't caused anything distructive even when it got into another world.

 

[Rokim21]

Considering the fact it's exerting force, to the point it allows Klonoa to literally ride on it, it seems pretty reductive to assume that explosion was weightless.

 

[Reiner04]

Considering the fact it's exerting force, to the point it allows Klonoa to literally ride on it, it seems pretty reductive to assume that explosion was weightless.

"To the point it allows klonoa to ride on it"? Dude, they are streams and that's how it works.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Considering the fact it's exerting force, to the point it allows Klonoa to literally ride on it, it seems pretty reductive to assume that explosion was weightless.

I mean, if that force is not destructive in nature, then is not worth as a feat.

 

[Bobsican]

Why would... any of this scale to stats? Someone having tier 2 ED and then being said to be very strong is the weakest argument for scaling I've ever heard.

... And? That's still ED, especially if he needs a special item to do it

Well, true , OP might explain then how will it scale to their stats (if it's even the case).

Thing is that the darkness came from Nahatomb, and it's stated that he was going to consume them all, in fact all his darkness vanished after being defeated. While he may not have consumed all of them out of Lolo holding the dreams from him, the fact that Lolo can empower the Wind Ring, and Klonoa eventually outgrowing the need to have her empowering to use it beforehand are more feats supporting 2-A.

As an extension of the above, Nahatomb doesn't require Lolo (the priestess' soul, calling her an item is reductive, lol) to consume them, she does the job of gathering the dreams, which is different.

As for the comic stuff, let's look at the context, shall we?

From what can be seen, Master Hue appears to desire to take the power of dreams, and so he sends a rocket that threatens Noctis Sol and forces it to release its power to absorb it with gathering fields, Noctis Sol has the power of many dreams, and so with the given context correlating this to AP it'd be a legitimate feat, Noctis Sol even mentions that this was threatening the order of dreams, which'd be universes for arguments mentioned in the blog and stuff accepted in a past CRT.

Klonoa not taking significant damage from it doesn't dismiss its potency, but quite the contrary as it shows he's consistently that durable with the other feats discussed in this thread. I already had plans for Popka to scale to the tier 2 stuff as he's a direct companion to Klonoa in Lunatea's Veil.

If the stream of dreams is the concern, note by the background that it was already there beforehand, the flash of the power of dreams of a million worlds is just separate and shouldn't be treated as the same thing as far visuals go, especially with the context.

Regarding the arguments against tier 1, I'm still preparing arguments off-site, please wait on that regard.

 

[Reiner04]

Missiles of knightmares shown to destroy the order of dreams which caused those dreams to start randomly flowing in all directions. I don't see how those streams are distructive in nature in anyway given that they're shown to be literally nothing like that, klonoa is literally enjoying surfing on it and even when those streams reach the other world we see that those streams doesn't cause any damage at all but just keep flowing and he is consistently 2B durable? When?

 

[Armorchompy]

As for the comic stuff, let's look at the context, shall we?

From what can be seen, Master Hue appears to desire to take the power of dreams, and so he sends a rocket that threatens Noctis Sol and forces it to release its power to absorb it with gathering fields, Noctis Sol has the power of many dreams, and so with the given context correlating this to AP it'd be a legitimate feat, Noctis Sol even mentions that this was threatening the order of dreams, which'd be universes for arguments mentioned in the blog and stuff accepted in a past CRT.

Klonoa not taking significant damage from it doesn't dismiss its potency, but quite the contrary as it shows he's consistently that durable with the other feats discussed in this thread. I already had plans for Popka to scale to the tier 2 stuff as he's a direct companion to Klonoa in Lunatea's Veil.

If the stream of dreams is the concern, note by the background that it was already there beforehand, the flash of the power of dreams of a million worlds is just separate and shouldn't be treated as the same thing as far visuals go, especially with the context.

It doesn't even seem like an explosion though it's just kind of a flash, and then they pop out somewhere else. Especially if it IS absorbing it, then it makes sense they wouldn't be actually tanking anything, it's not the full output or anything, hell it wouldn't make sense for those dreams being mentioned to be hitting them instead of being absorbed.

Also the fact that they're afraid of falling and unable to stop a rocket because of its size in the same scene... doesn't really paint the best picture for these alleged tier 2/1 characters.

 

[Armorchompy]

Thing is that the darkness came from Nahatomb, and it's stated that he was going to consume them all, in fact all his darkness vanished after being defeated. While he may not have consumed all of them out of Lolo holding the dreams from him, the fact that Lolo can empower the Wind Ring, and Klonoa eventually outgrowing the need to have her empowering to use it beforehand are more feats supporting 2-A.

There's a lot of context we don't have here. How was she preventing the dreams from being taken by him? It could very well be powernull. The darkness vanishing in itself doesn't really mean anything.

By looking around your scans, she seems to be gathering them by praying which does not really seem like something related to AP. In fact, the power he boasts about gathering through that method doesn't really sound like he's boosting himself physically but rather utilizing the dreams as a weapon directly.