Klonoa Low 1-C and 2-A Upgrades

[Bobsican]

Okay, I'll have to retackle the topic once again as it seems I require clarifying a lot to Armorchompy.

Why would... any of this scale to stats? Someone having tier 2 ED and then being said to be very strong is the weakest argument for scaling I've ever heard.

Please prove that this is ED over just arbitrarily claiming so with no basis beyond downplaying. This is ignoring that in the blog itself, there's multiple instances shown of dreams and nightmares being used for power either way, so whatever is done with them scales back regardless, making your point invalid here.

... And? That's still ED, especially if he needs a special item to do it

Nahatomb never needed a special item for it, from where did you get that? It's never hinted that Nahatomb required any special condition to nuke all dreams aside from just beng born, which requires sufficient energy to bring it into being.

Beyond that, this doesn't prove that Nahatomb can't destroy Phantomile under normal circumstances nor does it actually suggest it's a form of ED, especially since it's Nahatomb's own nightmare energy.

wouldn't that be Low 2-C x a lot? It's just a lot of individual explosions all happening at once

Though further context makes that sus too yeah

This is outright headcanon and it isn't what happens. It's a single burst that happens, and once again, we have no reason whatsoever to suggest it wasn't destruction. If your only logic is that it didn't harm Klonoa, that's just evidence they tanked it and not that it wasn't destruction.

That's like saying that a character surviving the big bang means that it wasn't destructive, ignoring the fact that's not how the energy works as a physical medium, and keep in mind that even using inverse square law, it wouldn't matter as it's a tier 2 explosion.

It doesn't even seem like an explosion though it's just kind of a flash, and then they pop out somewhere else. Especially if it IS absorbing it, then it makes sense they wouldn't be actually tanking anything, it's not the full output or anything, hell it wouldn't make sense for those dreams being mentioned to be hitting them instead of being absorbed.

Also the fact that they're afraid of falling and unable to stop a rocket because of its size in the same scene... doesn't really paint the best picture for these alleged tier 2/1 characters.

Please prove it's not an explosion or don't make speculative points, we clearly see Klonoa and Popka get pushed by it, so it obviously was some type of force and using common sense, it was a violent burst of energy (or what a normal person would call an explosion).

And as said before, it doesn't matter if it's full output or not, even using inverse square law would make it tier 2 (unless you're going to argue it's not a tier 2 explosion to begin with). Either way, this scales, unless you argue it's not destructive, in which case please provide evidence or concede the topic.

Also, please don't pull legitimate PIS as an argument, I know because you've pulled a similar thing to Mario, you may think that you can use it here but Klonoa is nowhere near as inconsistent nor has continuity issues. This is legitimately "X doesn't destroy Y from just simply walking, so they aren't Y level" levels of bad faith argumentation.

Note: The Player doesn't interact with the lower world, so the fact you even brought this up as a supposedly contradictory thing for tier 1 proves you don't even know what you're talking about and are just arbitrarily going for low ends for the sake of it and not out of any real legitimacy.

There's a lot of context we don't have here. How was she preventing the dreams from being taken by him? It could very well be powernull. The darkness vanishing in itself doesn't really mean anything.

By looking around your scans, she seems to be gathering them by praying which does not really seem like something related to AP. In fact, the power he boasts about gathering through that method doesn't really sound like he's boosting himself physically but rather utilizing the dreams as a weapon directly.

Please prove it's Power Null or don't make speculative points. Why doesn't darkness vanishing mean anything? Don't just make arguments and say them without explaining how they are even worth the time or consideration, or why they should be considered refutation as opposed to personal opinion.

I'd appreciate if you could stop making "it seems like" statements without evidence or anything to suggest your word should be taken. Why does that make it not AP, and why does any of what you say have a shred of validity to it?

Let's also keep in mind, it's simply stated that Master Hue has "gathered the energy of Noctis Sol", and furthermore states "The power of dreams and nightmares is mine to wield". What about that suggest he's using dreams as a weapon and isn't empowering himself with said energy???

Do I even have to mention that the Priestess even states they "feel a great power arriving in Lunatea", further proving he did absorb that energy, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to sense Master Hue himself, or the fact Master Hue displays the power of dreaming and states it's "my power". All of this is about as blatant as it gets.

 

[Reiner04]

This is outright headcanon and it isn't what happens. It's a single burst that happens, and once again, we have no reason whatsoever to suggest it wasn't destruction. If your only logic is that it didn't harm Klonoa, that's just evidence they tanked it and not that it wasn't destruction.

That's like saying that a character surviving the big bang means that it wasn't destructive, ignoring the fact that's not how the energy works as a physical medium, and keep in mind that even using inverse square law, it wouldn't matter as it's a tier 2 explosion.

They were said to be incapable of even surviving the explosion of missile and here we are saying that they survived 2B explosion which wasn't even the explosion in the first place, they were order of dream that got unstable and streamed down randomly in all directions, they were literally surfing on it and the stream can be seen to travels to another world but didn't caused any damage (bigbang will oliberate anything came in sight if not durable enough smh) to anything and kept flowing like a normal river and also it wasn't bigbang.

Also are these world's are alternate dimensions/universes? As the moon in the instruction manual said to be capable of creating anything in the universe, seems like moon just collects energy from ppls dreams and use that energy to shape the world/planet given that 3 spirits that maintains the world are actually referred as Wind, tree, water spirits and these energies are whatsover needed to maintain a planet things. These things balantly suggest them to be just planets that kolona dreams of, not that they are entirely different universes.

 

[Reiner04]

I've read the blog and no where it's suggested that these world's are alternate world's (even alternate word hasn't been used) or different universes, neither different timeline and whatsover. Whatever exist suggest them to be just mere planets exist in the universe.

Agree with 3A.

 

[Bobsican]

They were said to be incapable of even surviving the explosion of missile and here we are saying that they survived 2B explosion which wasn't even the explosion in the first place, they were order of dream that got unstable and streamed down randomly in all directions, they were literally surfing on it and the stream can be seen to travels to another world but didn't caused any damage (bigbang will oliberate anything came in sight if not durable enough smh) to anything and kept flowing like a normal river and also it wasn't bigbang.

Nowhere is it actually stated they couldn't survive the explosion of the missile, and two, this is the same missile that was able to disturb Noctis Sol, who objectively is narratively supposed to be a cosmic force that contains dreams and their energies. The point being made here is that this is in no way a standard missile and treating it as it was is disingenuous on every level imaginable.

Also keep in mind, none of that disproves that:

1) The burst was an explosion, by definition a violent burst of energy is an explosion and it's contextually supposed to be the case anyways.

2) That Klonoa and Popka shouldn't scale to it. If anything, you are proving why it SHOULD scale, as they no-sold the burst and would be obliterated if they couldn't. It's as simple as that, no need to arbitrarily assume things when basic logic and common sense can be at play here. Are we suddenly just throwing standards out of the window or what?

Also are these world's are alternate dimensions/universes? As the moon in the instruction manual said to be capable of creating anything in the universe, seems like moon just collects energy from ppls dreams and use that energy to shape the world/planet given that 3 spirits that maintains the world are actually referred as Wind, tree, water spirits and these energies are whatsover needed to maintain a planet things. These things balantly suggest them to be just planets that kolona dreams of, not that they are entirely different universes.

How does that prove that Phantomile is a planet or anything other than dreams being sort of a universe. My guy, did you just skim through the blog and not read it ? One of the instances of characters referring to dreams verbatim calls it a universe:

http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~aoi-k/other/e_w6.html

つきのせかい(The moon world)

The universe! For former me, it is unimaginable that I came to such place. Although I want to enjoy the space travel peacefully, let's land on the moon to run after Janga first of all!

Guntz: ...Really...? Pango: Well, the universe is full of mysteries... Klonoa: Uh, oh... Hello... Do you understand...?

Do you know where The Moon Kingdom resides in? Phantomile, and do you know what that is referred to as? A dream....
This is getting actually ridiculous to how much ignoring of scans we are getting to on this thread.

At worst Phantomile is the size of a universe, but we don't even need that. We've seen dreams contain starry skies, celestial bodies and so on. In other words, we have no reason to suspect dreams are planets and that's clearly not what the series is pointing towards at all, I could even go with semantics on the JP term for "world" (sekai) only being usable either for a society, a planet or a universe, and the former two meanings don't match with the context.

What the series is actually point towards is that dreams are universes, again, we see that many other dreams have celestial bodies outside of Phantomile too and other stuff... Phantomile being called a universe just only explicitly proves it (although Phantomile is more accurately a multiverse anyways, and it being called a universe wouldn't disprove it being a multiverse as "multiverse" is a fan-term that we don't require a series to abide to when talking about multiple universes).

I've read the blog and no where it's suggested that these world's are alternate world's (even alternate word hasn't been used) or different universes, neither different timeline and whatsover. Whatever exist suggest them to be just mere planets exist in the universe.

Agree with 3A.

No, that's just your bad interpretation. The series is very clear about dreams being universes, whether it be explicitly calling them such or the fact that Klonoa can travel to dreams is considered a special ability, implying that travel to dreams aren't possible despite the fact we see that Klonoa as a verse has many worlds with tech that would reasonably allow them to travel to other worlds (in fact, Klonoa Heroes shows us this much).

Let's also address the fact that everything that is shown in a dream is considered a dream (case in point, The Moon still being apart of the dream or the fact Moon Kingdom still being apart of Phantomile despite not being bound to it's land) and not just the land itself, once again debunking this notion that dreams are just planets of the universe.

 

[Reiner04]

Nowhere is it actually stated they couldn't survive the explosion of the missile,

Sure.

Also keep in mind, none of that disproves that:

1) The burst was an explosion, by definition a violent burst of energy is an explosion and it's contextually supposed to be the case anyways.

2) That Klonoa and Popka shouldn't scale to it. If anything, you are proving why it SHOULD scale, as they no-sold the burst and would be obliterated if they couldn't. It's as simple as that, no need to arbitrarily assume things when basic logic

Idk how this all even relates to what I said and how it can prove that the streams weren't harmful in anyway, not were bigbang and anything even in another world they acted like a simple stream. So can we stop with random pull ups?

How does that prove that Phantomile is a planet or anything other than dreams being sort of a universe. My guy, did you just skim through the blog and not read it ? One of the instances of characters referring to dreams verbatim calls it a universe

Omg, How does it disprove that they are universes when there is no evidence for them being universes. Moon creates anything IN THE UNIVERSE, the spirit energies are what represent NECESSITIES OF PLANETS LIVE SUSTAINANCE, if anything all the evidence is just them being mere planets, Sagan standards, prove that they're universes.

One of the instances of characters referring to dreams verbatim calls it a universe:

It refers to space travel in the universe, Lmfao. Further proves that all of these are in universe planets whatsover.

The universe! For former me, it is unimaginable that I came to such place. Although I want to enjoy the space travel peacefully, let's land on the moon to run after Janga first of all!

Nothing suggess here that dreams are universes but just kolona referring to universe as amazing place and suggesting his space travels as something he enjoys.

a planet or a universe, and the former two meanings don't match with the context

They clearly do, I don't see any reason as to why not, phantomile itself is just a planet or a solar system. there being other planets or celestial bodies doesn't mean they are universes smh, earth having moon and Mars near to it doesn't means earth is a universe.

that's just your bad interpretation. The series is very clear about dreams being universes

Prove it, I am not buying a random explaination that has no substance in it whatsover. Whatever has been suggested is for them being either mere planets or solar system arguably nothing more.

 

[Reiner04]

Also rather than writing an essay with no substantial evidence whatsover, giving direct evidence will be appreciated. Kindly read our standards for when we treat world's as universes.
Standards for when to consider world's as universes or alternate dimensions.

 

[Bobsican]

Sure.

How does that statement proves Klonoa couldn't? This comes from a character who knows nothing of Klonoa's power and the likes, why should be taken as a reliable source? Not that it matters because we see this isn't true anyways since Klonoa survives the Noctis Sol's release of energy anyways.

Idk how this all even relates to what I said and how it can prove that the streams weren't harmful in anyway, not were bigbang and anything even in another world they acted like a simple stream. So can we stop with random pull ups?

Your argument relies on the burst of energy not being an explosion. I already explained why it would be the case, if you are trying to suggest that an explosion isn't harmful, then I'm afraid the burden would be on you to prove that and not on me.

Not sure if you understand how debating works but the negative claim needs support if it's attacking the positive, meaning the burden of proof was never on me to begin with because it's common sense that an explosion is logically harmful.

So again, I ask you for proof because It was never on me to actually prove anything, especially since your claim can be debunked by using common sense and basic logic and context of what an explosion entails.

Omg, How does it disprove that they are universes when there is no evidence for them being universes. Moon creates anything IN THE UNIVERSE, the spirit energies are what represent NECESSITIES OF PLANETS LIVE SUSTAINANCE, if anything all the evidence is just them being mere planets, Sagan standards, prove that they're universes.

My guy, you are suggesting that Phantomile is a literal planet but what you seem to forget is Phantomile refers to the entire dream and the Moon Kingdom, despite being on the moon itself, is still apart of Phantomile. Your logic is like saying that our moon is apart of Earth, which clearly isn't the case unless you want to prioritize more assumptive claims.

What shoots your argument in the foot here is we see that the Moon Kingdom shows that Phantomile has stars within it, meaning that the dream itself is clearly bigger than a planet.



Remember, you are claiming that Phantomile itself is a planet, but if that's the case, then explain the Moon Kingdom, more so explain why it's still considered a part of Phantomile despite being in space. See how overly assumptive and questionable this is? All of your arguments is unsubstantiated headcanon, it's obvious to anyone who abides by any semblance of common sense that dreams in the context of the series are much larger than a planet.

It refers to space travel in the universe, Lmfao. Further proves that all of these are in universe planets whatsover.

Please explain how this proves Phantomile is merely a planet, matter of fact, how does this debunk what I even said?. If they can travel to different worlds, then how they can't just travel to a different dream If a dream is just merely a planet?, how come many dream worlds that have technology capable of doing so isn't able to just hop around dreams like Klonoa? Yeah, let's just ignore that Klonoa's ability to travel dreams is a special ability and istreated as a unique trait.

Nothing suggess here that dreams are universes but just kolona referring to universe as amazing place and suggesting his space travels as something he enjoys.

Yes, a direct statement saying it's a universe isn't an explicit statement, I would get that if not for the fact we are in reality and that's not how reality works. Clearly you haven't played the game or series for that matter because you'd know the Moon Kingdom is apart of Phantomile and by saying Phantomile is a planet, you are unironically saying the Moon is apart of Earth, which obviously isn't the case as said before.

In fact, the original scan you even used for this odd argument doesn't even hint that they are planets either, please carefully read more carefully from the instruction manual that you've even quoted:

"The Moon Spirit gathered the energy to give shape to the world" suggests the Moon Spirit created Phantomile but wait a minute? "He was jealous of the omnipotent power of The Moon Spirit to create anything in the universe" proves that Phantomile is merely a planet? So are we gonna just forget that "the world" was what the Moon Spirit created and "anything in the universe" clearly is just a reference to said "world"???

It isn't rocket science, it's clearly calling the "world" a universe here and it's obvious based on contextual clues alone. Combined with what I presented earlier, your premise holds no weight and all offense to that too because such a argument relies on just being dishonestly ignorant of context as far I can see.

I'm also noticing that the instruction manual image in your post doesn't come from Imgur, but from Discord (don't bother editing, mods can see past versions of a post), and given it's clear as day you haven't really touched the series beforehand, are you arguing in bad faith based on what an off-site group thinks after you've presumably shared it? Please don't do that to say the least.

They clearly do, I don't see any reason as to why not, phantomile itself is just a planet or a solar system. there being other planets or celestial bodies doesn't mean they are universes smh, earth having moon and Mars near to it doesn't means earth is a universe.

No strawman, my argument wasn't that other planets exist and therefore Phantomile is a universe, the argument here is that if Phantomile is stated to be a planet, then why is the Moon Kingdom considered a part of it despite being a whole moon kilometers away???

Prove it, I am not buying a random explaination that has no substance in it whatsover. Whatever has been suggested is for them being either mere planets or solar system arguably nothing more.

This holds no weight when you don't even bother explaining how this is relevant to how the structure of Phantomile is being argued, but let's see...

If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.

Already proven in the OP, you have yet to actually debunk it and I've provided evidence against it

If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.

Dreams are capable of containing Nahatomb's infinite darkness, so they are infinite in size

If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

While we don't have a stated barrier or anything, we do know dreams are separated and I already provided scans for that, we also see that they have celestial bodies and the likes, once more proven above.

So once more, you are doing baseless assumptions that overall just backfire on your premise.

 

[Reiner04]

How does that statement proves Klonoa couldn't? This comes from a character who knows nothing of Klonoa's power and the likes, why should be taken as a reliable source? Not that it matters because we see this isn't true anyways since Klonoa survives the Noctis Sol's release of energy anyways

Omfg, first you said there wasn't even a statement like this exist and now when it does you are set forth for nah, the guy is just random pull up in the story, character in question who was aware of the risk and sacrifices before ahead is not reliable who was aware of klonoa is powered by dreams and whatsover hasn't been contradicted in least. Man, it's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Your argument relies on the burst of energy not being an explosion. I already explained why it would be the case, if you are trying to suggest that an explosion isn't harmful, then I'm afraid the burden would be on you to prove that and not on me.

They're just random streams randomly flowing in all directions as has been shown and didn't caused any distruction even when reached another world but just acted like normal streams. Idk what has been left to prove rather you explain why those streams hasn't caused anything distructive when reached another world and Why it's a 2B explosion and the guy who is not even capable of tanking a missile explosion can tank a 2B explosion. The burden of proof is on you who is asserting that these streams was an 2B explosion and are distructive in nature as shown things suggest otherwise.

My guy, you are suggesting that Phantomile is a literal planet but what you seem to forget is Phantomile refers to the entire dream and the Moon Kingdom, despite being on the moon itself, is still apart of Phantomile. Your logic is like saying that our moon is apart of Earth, which clearly isn't the case unless you want to prioritize more assumptive claims.

What shoots your argument in the foot here is we see that the Moon Kingdom shows that Phantomile has stars within it, meaning that the dream itself is clearly bigger than a planet.



Remember, you are claiming that Phantomile itself is a planet, but if that's the case, then explain the Moon Kingdom, more so explain why it's still considered a part of Phantomile despite being in space. See how overly assumptive and questionable this is? All of your arguments is unsubstantiated headcanon, it's obvious to anyone who abides by any semblance of common sense that dreams in the context of the series are much larger than a planet.

Please explain how this proves Phantomile is merely a planet, matter of fact, how does this debunk what I even said?. If they can travel to different worlds, then how they can't just travel to a different dream If a dream is just merely a planet?, how come many dream worlds that have technology capable of doing so isn't able to just hop around dreams like Klonoa? Yeah, let's just ignore that Klonoa's ability to travel dreams is a special ability and istreated as a unique trait.



Yes, a direct statement saying it's a universe isn't an explicit statement, I would get that if not for the fact we are in reality and that's not how reality works. Clearly you haven't played the game or series for that matter because you'd know the Moon Kingdom is apart of Phantomile and by saying Phantomile is a planet, you are unironically saying the Moon is apart of Earth, which obviously isn't the case as said before.

In fact, the original scan you even used for this odd argument doesn't even hint that they are planets either, please carefully read more carefully from the instruction manual that you've even quoted:

"The Moon Spirit gathered the energy to give shape to the world" suggests the Moon Spirit created Phantomile but wait a minute? "He was jealous of the omnipotent power of The Moon Spirit to create anything in the universe" proves that Phantomile is merely a planet? So are we gonna just forget that "the world" was what the Moon Spirit created and "anything in the universe" clearly is just a reference to said "world"???

It isn't rocket science, it's clearly calling the "world" a universe here and it's obvious based on contextual clues alone. Combined with what I presented earlier, your premise holds no weight and all offense to that too because such a argument relies on just being dishonestly ignorant of context as far I can see.

Sigh, phantomilia has other celestial bodies near it, it can mean this it can mean that.... Bud, regardless whatever you said nothing proves that they are universes as per our standards neither disprove that those are just merely celestial bodies, these arguments of yours aren't proofs yk, a words w/o substantial evidences, no one cares for them.

I've explained dozens of times that why them being planets or celestial bodies holds more wright than them being universes which hasn't been implied for the god sake even single time. Moon was capable of creating anything "in the universe" and other 3 spirits which represents elements necessary for sustaining planets and it's environment sustain those world's. Nothing suggest them being universes or even different dimensions.

I'm also noticing that the instruction manual image in your post doesn't come from Imgur, but from Discord, and given it's clear as day you haven't really touched the series beforehand, are you arguing in bad faith based on what an off-site group thinks after you've presumably shared it? Please don't do that to say the least.

Ad hominem fr, I don't care about off site things or whatever, my opinion is all comes from me. I use discord links as they are easy one for me, many, all guys here on vsbw already knows that I mostly use discord links unless I've to make a crt. Don't do this again, saying anything just because you feel so, nah.

Phantomile is stated to be a universe

When?

Already proven in the OP, you have yet to actually debunk it and I've provided evidence against it

Argument from belief and Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam. You are the one who have to prove they are universes not others.

Dreams are capable of containing Nahatomb's infinite darkness, so they are infinite in size

Nahatomb darkness was capable of devouring dreams smh.

While we don't have a stated barrier or anything, we do know dreams are separated and I already provided scans for that, we also see that they have celestial bodies and the likes, once more proven above

All celestial bodies are seprated non of them are present in one place. There is need to have them being seprated by barrier of spacetime.

Nothing you quoted even comes near to them being universes, dimensions, timelines and whatsover. I don't know what's this quote was even for.

 

[Reiner04]

Also as there is literally nothing for me to see as Tier 2, I disagree with the whole crt.

 

[Armorchompy]

Please prove that this is ED over just arbitrarily claiming so with no basis beyond downplaying. This is ignoring that in the blog itself, there's multiple instances shown of dreams and nightmares being used for power either way, so whatever is done with them scales back regardless, making your point invalid here.

Cool it with the accusations, there's literally no evidence in this case that it's actually being used that way.

Beyond that, this doesn't prove that Nahatomb can't destroy Phantomile under normal circumstances nor does it actually suggest it's a form of ED, especially since it's Nahatomb's own nightmare energy.

And? Still no UES.

This is outright headcanon and it isn't what happens. It's a single burst that happens, and once again, we have no reason whatsoever to suggest it wasn't destruction. If your only logic is that it didn't harm Klonoa, that's just evidence they tanked it and not that it wasn't destruction.

No, it's headcanon to say that it was a 2-whatever blast given the energy was absorbed before the explosion.

That's like saying that a character surviving the big bang means that it wasn't destructive, ignoring the fact that's not how the energy works as a physical medium, and keep in mind that even using inverse square law, it wouldn't matter as it's a tier 2 explosion.

Please prove it's not an explosion or don't make speculative points, we clearly see Klonoa and Popka get pushed by it, so it obviously was some type of force and using common sense, it was a violent burst of energy (or what a normal person would call an explosion).
And as said before, it doesn't matter if it's full output or not, even using inverse square law would make it tier 2 (unless you're going to argue it's not a tier 2 explosion to begin with). Either way, this scales, unless you argue it's not destructive, in which case please provide evidence or concede the topic.

Bro we're both speculating, that's the entire point of battleboarding, I gave reasoning for my argument, I'm not gonna let you say "waah headcanon" when you haven't brought forward any for yours.

Also, please don't pull legitimate PIS as an argument, I know because you've pulled a similar thing to Mario, you may think that you can use it here but Klonoa is nowhere near as inconsistent nor has continuity issues. This is legitimately "X doesn't destroy Y from just simply walking, so they aren't Y level" levels of bad faith argumentation.

No, this is "X struggles with lower tier feats in the same scene so they aren't infinitely stronger than that", **** off with the "bad faith" and remind yourself of what an anti-feat is, you don't get to just pick the biggest number and ignore everything else below it.

Note: The Player doesn't interact with the lower world, so the fact you even brought this up as a supposedly contradictory thing for tier 1 proves you don't even know what you're talking about and are just arbitrarily going for low ends for the sake of it and not out of any real legitimacy.

I literally never even brought him up.

Please prove it's Power Null or don't make speculative points. Why doesn't darkness vanishing mean anything? Don't just make arguments and say them without explaining how they are even worth the time or consideration, or why they should be considered refutation as opposed to personal opinion.

I'd appreciate if you could stop making "it seems like" statements without evidence or anything to suggest your word should be taken. Why does that make it not AP, and why does any of what you say have a shred of validity to it?

Prove it isn't man, you've brought forward literally no evidence that it's something that would scale to AP, and that is not the default assumption so burden on proof is on you.

Let's also keep in mind, it's simply stated that Master Hue has "gathered the energy of Noctis Sol", and furthermore states "The power of dreams and nightmares is mine to wield". What about that suggest he's using dreams as a weapon and isn't empowering himself with said energy???

Cool, he can control them. Why does that make him physically stronger as a result? You're literally showing something unrelated and claiming it's iron-solid evidence.

Do I even have to mention that the Priestess even states they "feel a great power arriving in Lunatea", further proving he did absorb that energy, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to sense Master Hue himself, or the fact Master Hue displays the power of dreaming and states it's "my power". All of this is about as blatant as it gets.

None of this implies it's actually empowering him, though

 

[Bobsican]

Omfg, first you said there wasn't even a statement like this exist and now when it does you are set forth for nah, the guy is just random pull up in the story, character in question who was aware of the risk and sacrifices before ahead is not reliable who was aware of klonoa is powered by dreams and whatsover hasn't been contradicted in least. Man, it's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I don't need to explain that context also matters per basic Statement standards, and so it being a character that knows nothing of Klonoa's power renders it irrelevant. Imagine taking my words out of context despite it being as clear as day that "no statement" refers to no accepted statement from a reliable source. Either way, your argument here is irrelevant, prove he's a reliable source (you can't) or just concede this nonsense.

They're just random streams randomly flowing in all directions as has been shown and didn't caused any distruction even when reached another world but just acted like normal streams. Idk what has been left to prove rather you explain why those streams hasn't caused anything distructive when reached another world and Why it's a 2B explosion and the guy who is not even capable of tanking a missile explosion can tank a 2B explosion. The burden of proof is on you who is asserting that these streams was an 2B explosion and are distructive in nature as shown things suggest otherwise.

My guy, it's in the dream stream, what is there to destroy? The energy didn't leak outwards into the universe or anything but was inside the stream of dreams, where Noctis Sol maintains the order of dreaming. You saying that "nothing was destroyed" is a bad argument because there's nothing to destroy there, it's a simple space with no other world there and just only containing Noctis Sol, what burden is on me? Do I have to explain why an explosion is destruction? I don't think so because sagan standard works both ways (since you love to shout fallacies yet fail to explain how they are even relevant or debunk anything).

Sigh, phantomilia has other celestial bodies near it, it can mean this it can mean that.... Bud, regardless whatever you said nothing proves that they are universes as per our standards neither disprove that those are just merely celestial bodies, these arguments of yours aren't proofs yk, a words w/o substantial evidences, no one cares for them.

No refute to the fact that the Moon Kingdom is still a part of Phantomile despite the fact Phantomile would be the name of the planet by your own logic.

Refuses to acknowledge the fact that despite everything we see in the game is Phantomile and it having a starry sky objectively makes it more than a planet.

Dismisses all scans and doesn't even address them as they debunk your blatant headcanon.

Did I also forget the mention that all of Phantomile is represented as a page of a book, and guess what? That page also contains the starry sky I was referring to as well. So once more, it proves that all that stuff is apart of Phantomile and not some unrelated celestial bodies from a distance.

Concession accepted as this point.

I've explained dozens of times that why them being planets or celestial bodies holds more wright than them being universes which hasn't been implied for the god sake even single time. Moon was capable of creating anything "in the universe" and other 3 spirits which represents elements necessary for sustaining planets and it's environment sustain those world's. Nothing suggest them being universes or even different dimensions.

It doesn't hold any weight whatsoever. All of your arguments were debunked in just a few posts and you haven't even addressed my most fundamental points.

You still have yet to explain how Moon Kingdom would still be a part of Phantomile if the latter is just a planet, and the Moon Kingdom is simply a moon kilometers away.

"In the universe" (as linked multiple times, you've even quoted it as said before) clearly refers to the Moon God's "word", it's as painfully obvious as the sun in a summer evening. You bringing up the fact the other spirits represent elements means absolutely nothing... Like, you'd just argue that their sustainability is universal, we have examples of element concepts extending their influence beyond earth and to the universe in fiction, such as The Titans from Wizard101

Even beyond that, this doesn't suddenly mean that Phantomile is a planet either way so no matter how you look at it, your arguments aren't supported by any logic or even any standard found on this wiki, please stop arguing from illogicality for the sake of everyone.

Ad hominem fr, I don't care about off site things or whatever, my opinion is all comes from me. I use discord links as they are easy one for me, many, all guys here on vsbw already knows that I mostly use discord links unless I've to make a crt. Don't do this again, saying anything just because you feel so, nah.

Ignoring the fact that calling that out isn't Ad Homenium in any fashion of the term, that doesn't change the fact that you got it from a Discord link and not imgur, which again implies you got it from Discord and furthermore, from a server. Now if you've just uploaded it to some "personal" server where you just upload stuff for the sake of "easing" linking here (which is unlikely as just copy-pasting the Imgur link gets the job done), I apologize.

When?

The moment Klonoa Heroes cites the dream they are in as a universe or when the manual outright calls Phantomile a universe (which have been brought up directly to you already), denial isn't a healthy thing to indulge in.

Argument from belief and Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam. You are the one who have to prove they are universes not others.

May you stop mentioning fallacies and not understanding what they acually entail and how they are relevant to the debate?. Actually prove yourself with argumentation and not shifting the burden when it was never on me to prove due to the positive always being presupposed to be correct until suggested otherwise, any other take based on given evidence requires more assumptions to say the least, which is undesirable with how stuff is indexed on the site.

Nahatomb darkness was capable of devouring dreams smh.

How is this even a debunk? Nahatomb's darkness being infinite would mean the dream itself is infinite... Basic common sense continues to not be your strong suit.

All celestial bodies are seprated non of them are present in one place. There is need to have them being seprated by barrier of spacetime.

Again, the fact you can't reach another dream through mere space travel proves they are separated by space and time. If they occupied the same space-time continuum, then anyone could travel to another dream.

That's clearly not the case and asserting that would destroy the whole premise of Klonoa, which is that he's unique for his ability to travel through dreams, you're essencially making up assumptions to rate stuff lower when it'd be contradictive fanfiction at that point.

Nothing you quoted even comes near to them being universes, dimensions, timelines and whatsover. I don't know what's this quote was even for.

Almost every standard apart of the universe page was fulfilled (and not all of them are even required to be met to qualify), not sure what you are on about.

Cool it with the accusations, there's literally no evidence in this case that it's actually being used that way.

That's not really an accusation though, if you are assuming a low end for the sake of it and not actually explaining, then it's blatantly downplaying. So again, I ask you, why should we treat it as Environmental Destruction? Please don't just say it's this and not elaborate on why, that's not how debates work to say the least.

And? Still no UES.

I'm not sure from where you got that a UES is needed to scale every conceivable usage of energy to AP. Nightmare Energy isn't some magic system or similar, it's just an extension of Nahatomb's energy per the fact he's the embodiment of nightmares.

We have no reason to assume any level of destruction he does also doesn't scale back to AP, especially since his means of destruction is just merely exerting his own energy to destroy things, which has always been means to say something scales to AP.

No, it's headcanon to say that it was a 2-whatever blast given the energy was absorbed before the explosion.

If you are conceding it's an explosion, then it's destructive unless you can provide a reasoning for an EXPLOSION not being destructive (that'd require further assumptions, the "lower end" is not always the least assumptive one). Either way, it's still an explosion and Klonoa tanking it is absolutely a feat that should be viable here.

Besides that, it's an explosion of millions of dreams... It wouldn't matter if you inverse square law it or even argue it's a fraction, it's still 2-B and still a Tier 2 explosion. This is also ignoring the fact the explosion wasn't contained and it just bursted out anyways per Noctis Sol mentioning that's what happened.

Bro we're both speculating, that's the entire point of battleboarding, I gave reasoning for my argument, I'm not gonna let you say "waah headcanon" when you haven't brought forward any for yours.

Yes, we are both speculating but speculating on the grounds of logic and common sense. It doesn't matter if it's battleboarding or not, an explosion is an explosion and an explosion is destructive, unless now you want to revise site standards so now explosions (or what's basically described as one) require being described to us like a school topic or else they're unusable.

There is a certain baseline of logic and reality that is abided by in battleboarding, otherwise it just falls apart. We don't just arbitrarily assume every explosion in fiction is not destructive unless there's reason to suspect and... oh? We have no reason to suspect it here either...

No, this is "X struggles with lower tier feats in the same scene so they aren't infinitely stronger than that", **** off with the "bad faith" and remind yourself of what an anti-feat is, you don't get to just pick the biggest number and ignore everything else below it.

Eh... yeah, I kinda can "pick the biggest number and ignore everything else below it" because the biggest number is supported and the "lower numbers" are just extensions of the medium in which gaming is, which is entertainment, meaning that things like scaling and battleboarding isn't at the forefront.

If you want to be that guy, you might as well apply the same logic to every other gaming character, whom of which suffers the most from this out of the fact creators (gasp!) care for their artistic expression than the power of the character itself, and I'm sure this isn't an unfamiliar concept.

Factoring in low-ends and ignoring things like PIS or CIS is indeed bad faith when they are pulled from the artistic elements that comprise the battleboarding aspect. Taking a video game character who can destroy planets on multiple occasions within lore but in gameplay can't bust a wall is bad faith argumentation. Taking an RPG character who has several abilities that destroy stars or galaxies but taking the instance where they are harmed by bullets in gameplay is bad faith argumentation.

I can go on and on here but you aren't using just "anti-feats", you are extrapolating stuff that stem from creators just not caring about the power or scaling of their character. In other words, you seem to think PIS or CIS aren't legitimate concepts, which is far from the truth as far the site is concerned, and the former is pretty applicable here for the reasons I highlighted above, unless now you want to revise the site's standards and make it so that 90% of the site doesn't go beyond tier 9.

I literally never even brought him up.

Oh, really?

Also the fact that they're afraid of falling and unable to stop a rocket because of its size in the same scene... doesn't really paint the best picture for these alleged tier 2/1 characters.

Prove it isn't man, you've brought forward literally no evidence that it's something that would scale to AP, and that is not the default assumption so burden on proof is on you.

I'm afraid the burden isn't on me Armor, you're trying to argue against the positive, which is my inherent claim, so the burden shifts onto you to actually prove that this ISN'T the case, especially since this is a more logical (and less assumptive) deduction than your premise.

Cool, he can control them. Why does that make him physically stronger as a result? You're literally showing something unrelated and claiming it's iron-solid evidence.

None of this implies it's actually empowering him, though

This is a false for many reasons:

1) For starters, we see that Hue is much larger than he was before and he's leaking energy, which implies that he himself has the energy of Noctis Sol.

2) The chapter itself is called "Tenebrea of Noctis", once more implying that Tenebrae has become the essence of Noctis Sol.

3) The Priestess couldn't sense Hue but all of a sudden, his power has become so great he can be sensed despite not being in the same dream.

4) It's verbatim stated that dreams and nightmares is his power.

I can go on, but these subtle things at the very least hint that Hue has become amplified by Noctis Sol. You can keep saying "None of this implies it's actually empowering him" all you want but you haven't actually explained anything to even have a case for your claims, and furthermore resort to ignoring things that don't suit you.

If you're still unsure I'd suggest to ping other staff members to ensure fairness in both sides, @DarkDragonMedeus has shown interest as he mentioned he was fine with the main premise of tier 2 quite early on.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't need to explain that context also matters per basic Statement standards, and so it being a character that knows nothing of Klonoa's power renders it irrelevant. Imagine taking my words out of context despite it being as clear as day that "no statement" refers to no accepted statement from a reliable source. Either way, your argument here is irrelevant, prove he's a reliable source (you can't) or just concede this nonsense.

Yeah he knows nothing about klonoa's power.

Read the comic before arguing smh and yeh keep being denail as this statement has been made by a reliable character who has known klonoa for years and was aware of his powers.

guy, it's in the dream stream, what is there to destroy? The energy didn't leak outwards into the universe or anything but was inside the stream of dreams, where Noctis Sol maintains the order of dreaming. You saying that "nothing was destroyed" is a bad argument because there's nothing to destroy there, it's a simple space with no other world there and just only containing Noctis Sol, what burden is on me? Do I have to explain why an explosion is destruction? I don't think so because sagan standard works both ways (since you love to shout fallacies yet fail to explain how they are even relevant or debunk anything).

Lmao tf this explanation is even?.... The energy stream leaked far before from the noctis Sol and all of them were realeased into other worlds as we seen, you are making a random ass arguement at this point to argue that it was destructive and harmful energy when it was clearly leaked one chapter before and reached another world but yet was simply like a normal river. Don't make the random ass arguement Outta nowhere.

No refute to the fact that the Moon Kingdom is still a part of Phantomile despite the fact Phantomile would be the name of the planet by your own logic.

Prove that it's a part of the phantomile and how does it confirms that there is more than one universe? As regardles where phantomile and moon is, if there is just one universe no one cares. Seems like a random arguement again to me.

Refuses to acknowledge the fact that despite everything we see in the game is Phantomile and it having a starry sky objectively makes it more than a planet.

Prove that phantomile is a another universe ratherthan telling me that Phantomile is big or it has stary sky as even our earth has stary sky, our milky way has billions of stars. No one cares neither it's our Standards.

And for the God's sake prove that it's even is a another dimension or realm in the first place, to argue for it being universe is a second thing​

How is this even a debunk? Nahatomb's darkness being infinite would mean the dream itself is infinite... Basic common sense continues to not be your strong suit.

TF? Nahatomb's darkness is infinite and it has consumed all dreams, where it has been said that each single dream is infinite rather than you again pulling random shit.

Again, the fact you can't reach another dream through mere space travel proves they are separated by space and time. If they occupied the same space-time continuum, then anyone could travel to another dream.

That's clearly not the case and asserting that would destroy the whole premise of Klonoa, which is that he's unique for his ability to travel through dreams, you're essencially making up assumptions to rate stuff lower when it'd be contradictive fanfiction at that point.

Brah what it has to do with his abilities whatsover? Prove that they cannot be reached by space travels before arguing it. And cannot be reached by space travel just show their limitations of their astronomical device developments.

If we are going to assign seprate spacetime continuum on the basis that one person cannot reach other places outside of their planets than hundreds of franchises are in line to scale to that. Infact we cannot reach Andromeda galaxy through space travel rn, so yeah. Stop right there with those assumptions.

Almost every standard apart of the universe page was fulfilled (and not all of them are even required to be met to qualify), not sure what you are on about.

Keep going, there is nothing in the entire game to fullfill even one single requirements for them being universes.

Also stop telling me how big phantomile was, if it wasn't a universe or another dimension then it doesn't meet our site standards

• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

 

[Reiner04]

If there is nothing for them to be argued as universes or just even as simple as being "ANOTHER DIMENSIONS" then stop arguing right there.

 

[Armorchompy]

Concession accepted as this point.

Mate, I wouldn't really be acting so smug, it just serves to poison the discussion and makes you come off like a complete dick. You're honestly getting to such a level of poisoning the well that it's close to report-worthy, consider that an official warning. I don't like the idea of reporting someone I'm debating against since it'd make me feel like I used the rules for my own benefit, which is why I'm giving you this warning at all.

That's not really an accusation though, if you are assuming a low end for the sake of it and not actually explaining, then it's blatantly downplaying. So again, I ask you, why should we treat it as Environmental Destruction? Please don't just say it's this and not elaborate on why, that's not how debates work to say the least.
I'm not sure from where you got that a UES is needed to scale every conceivable usage of energy to AP. Nightmare Energy isn't some magic system or similar, it's just an extension of Nahatomb's energy per the fact he's the embodiment of nightmares. We have no reason to assume any level of destruction he does also doesn't scale back to AP, especially since his means of destruction is just merely exerting his own energy to destroy things, which has always been means to say something scales to AP.

"That's not an accusation, (immediately repeats accusation)"

What happened to "multiple points of view can be made over a single thing"?

The fact that it's "his" energy doesn't mean he wields it in direct combat, it's as simple as that, there isn't any IRL precedent for "oh it's his energy so it must obviously behave in one way", and you have done absolutely nothing to actually show the portrayal or him even just using it in combat. I genuinely wouldn't continue this part if he does but like, show it.

Besides that, it's an explosion of millions of dreams... It wouldn't matter if you inverse square law it or even argue it's a fraction, it's still 2-B and still a Tier 2 explosion. This is also ignoring the fact the explosion wasn't contained and it just bursted out anyways per Noctis Sol mentioning that's what happened.

Only if it's a finite fraction, which isn't necessarily the case, you can still take a finite spoonful out of an infinite cake.

I don't believe you've shown that?

Yes, we are both speculating but speculating on the grounds of logic and common sense. It doesn't matter if it's battleboarding or not, an explosion is an explosion and an explosion is destructive, unless now you want to revise site standards so now explosions (or what's basically described as one) require being described to us like a school topic or else they're unusable.

I said a "blast", not an explosion. Judging by how it looks, it seems more to be like a flash of light than anything, which isn't something that inflicts harm.

Eh... yeah, I kinda can "pick the biggest number and ignore everything else below it" because the biggest number is supported and the "lower numbers" are just extensions of the medium in which gaming is, which is entertainment, meaning that things like scaling and battleboarding isn't at the forefront.

This anti-feat is from a comic book lmao.

If you want to be that guy, you might as well apply the same logic to every other gaming character, whom of which suffers the most from this out of the fact creators (gasp!) care for their artistic expression than the power of the character itself, and I'm sure this isn't an unfamiliar concept.

Factoring in low-ends and ignoring things like PIS or CIS is indeed bad faith when they are pulled from the artistic elements that comprise the battleboarding aspect. Taking a video game character who can destroy planets on multiple occasions within lore but in gameplay can't bust a wall is bad faith argumentation. Taking an RPG character who has several abilities that destroy stars or galaxies but taking the instance where they are harmed by bullets in gameplay is bad faith argumentation.

I can go on and on here but you aren't using just "anti-feats", you are extrapolating stuff that stem from creators just not caring about the power or scaling of their character. In other words, you seem to think PIS or CIS aren't legitimate concepts, which is far from the truth as far the site is concerned, and the former is pretty applicable here for the reasons I highlighted above, unless now you want to revise the site's standards and make it so that 90% of the site doesn't go beyond tier 9.

Honestly, I don't care to have this discussion, you're making apples to oranges comparisons (I nowhere even began to show a gameplay anti-feat here) and backing them up with unpleasant behavior, kindly buzz off with your weird accusations and return to the discussion at hand, this is just wasting both my time and yours. We have standards regarding anti-feats, my behavior has always followed them, feel free to make an effort to change them, I have no reason to engage with your views until you do.

For the record, I'm not trying to suggest a couple 9-B anti-feats are enough to downgrade a tier 2 character, the difference should be more slanted in their favor, I just think it makes it a bit ridiculous to argue a very ambiguous feat is indeed Tier 2 when there's a much more straightforward, completely different portrayal of power in the exact same scene.

I'm afraid the burden isn't on me Armor, you're trying to argue against the positive, which is my inherent claim, so the burden shifts onto you to actually prove that this ISN'T the case, especially since this is a more logical (and less assumptive) deduction than your premise.

If I may give advice, stop talking about the debate itself when debating, it's completely empty of use.

This is a false for many reasons:

1) For starters, we see that Hue is much larger than he was before and he's leaking energy, which implies that he himself has the energy of Noctis Sol.

2) The chapter itself is called "Tenebrea of Noctis", once more implying that Tenebrae has become the essence of Noctis Sol.

3) The Priestess couldn't sense Hue but all of a sudden, his power has become so great he can be sensed despite not being in the same dream.

4) It's verbatim stated that dreams and nightmares is his power.

I can go on, but these subtle things at the very least hint that Hue has become amplified by Noctis Sol. You can keep saying "None of this implies it's actually empowering him" all you want but you haven't actually explained anything to even have a case for your claims, and furthermore resort to ignoring things that don't suit you.

Buddy, again, cool it with the accusation, I don't think I've ever called you a wanker or anything here. Honestly seeing things laid out like this they look relatively straightforward to me, regarding this feat (I'd remove "2", that one doesn't really mean anything concrete), I think you just did an awful job at explaining it originally (obviously it's still up in the air whether it is legitimate or not, given Reiner is still debating).

Believe it or not I have so many better things to do than make sure some videogame I've never played doesn't get a number added to its page in a fan wiki, you were the one who asked me to contribute here.

 

[Reiner04]

Ignoring the fact that calling that out isn't Ad Homenium in any fashion of the term, that doesn't change the fact that you got it from a Discord link and not imgur, which again implies you got it from Discord and furthermore, from a server. Now if you've just uploaded it to some "personal" server where you just upload stuff for the sake of "easing" linking here (which is unlikely as just copy-pasting the Imgur link gets the job done), I apologize.

Spoiler

Here is your highly unlikely case, me creating links of my scans on discord to send here day before yesterday and yeah it's not a server but my friend's dm who is dead from months on discord.
I accept your apology.

May you stop mentioning fallacies and not understanding what they acually entail and how they are relevant to the debate?. Actually prove yourself with argumentation and not shifting the burden when it was never on me to prove due to the positive always being presupposed to be correct until suggested otherwise

There is no presumption "correct" in the premises that are being used or brought up in the debate, rather the burden of proof is always on one making the claim, BOP is by default is on one making the crt and the reasons for disagreeing doesn't have to be "prove otherwise" but a simple reasoning that why the premise is not the "only self correct and neither the most probable", that to say "appeal to ignorance" I don't have to prove otherwise as I've given my reasoning to why it's not the only self and neither more probable than the reasoning I've given, neither fullfill our standards, etc. "Saitama is multiversal because you can't prove he is not" is not a arguement but to prove that he is a mustiversal because if not then I've my reasons to not scale him to it.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

After reading the blog, this seems to make enough sense for the Tier 2 Feats to go through and be accepted. The wiki is very inconsistent on how they handle 1-C in this manner, so while I'd think this would qualify, I doubt it would go through.

The bigger reason why I am commenting here however is that I'm noticing that some of the people here (I won't be pointing fingers) are getting far too aggressive and vulgar, and are really allowing themselves to be upset when their argument is countered with something that they probably don't see as being worth consideration. I just want to give a friendly reminder that we ought to be civil here, that the usage of certain language is unprofessional, and that if need be, it's OK to take a break to collect yourself and calm down.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway, as I've given my disagreement and reasoning for so. I am leaving it here anything else just making things circular I won't be responding any further.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Here, they are just random stream energy coming from the hole created by missile which caused their order to get destroyed, these streams aren't harmful at all and hasn't caused anything distructive even when it got into another world.

If that comic is structured in the order I'm seeing here then I see the cosmogly being teir 2 but definitely not Klona scaling in the slightest since they don't even have any damage on them.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Honestly the profile and verse page is pretty scuffed. Massively Hypersonic with no scan or link in sight, Building Level from a vague windmill explosion, Continental from a even vaguer discription of absorbing moon energy to a video link that just expects me to watch the whole thing with no time stamp.
I'm surprised this did not go the way of Billy Hatcher and not just get thanos snapped out of existence just for looking like a 2018 sandbox that was left unfinished.

 

[Mantidil]

Bump

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I definitely agree with the 2-B to 2-A stuff easily, though our standards on Low 1-C are admittedly inconsistent plus it's not something I'm too skilled at grasping. So I'm neutral on Low 1-C.

your argument makes more sense

 

[Bobsican]

Oh sorry, I was taking a break from the site, I'll get back to this tomorrow.

 

[Mantidil]

Bump

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

So what else needs to be discussed? (outside the verse getting a major revamp).

 

[Bobsican]

I'm still working on a reply to recent arguments.