Kirin? More Like Kir-out :UsoppLaugh:

[Deceived3596]

It's currently accepted on Sasuke's profile that Kirin moves at the speed of light given two databook statements asserting it does. I have an issue with these statements, but before I tackle them specifically, I wish to establish Kirin, the technique.

Kirin requires the formation of a storm cloud to be used as Kirin doesn't create its own lightning bolt through Chakra, but rather uses Chakra to shape and control natural lightning. So we have direct confirmation that Kirin is a natural bolt of lightning. Now, Black Zetsu (who I will now call Zetsu for convenience) describes Kirin as moving 1/1000 of a second, which is a general timeframe for a lightning bolt IRL, and how it surpasses the speed of sound, a description of its speed.

With everything given, it should be cut and dry that Kirin is supposed to move at the speed of lightning as it's a natural lightning bolt, and is given a timeframe which generally lines up with the speed of a lightning bolt? It is, but as always, complication must be introduced for scaling sake. It's stated in the databooks that Kirin moves at the speed of light twice. Now, you would assume there is valid justification for us to believe these statements are truthful, although contradictory to Zetsu's statement, rather than being hyperbolic, correct? This isn't the case however, no rationale is given for us to believe the statements are supposed to be taken seriously, outside of assuming that they should because it's stated so in the databooks. I don't find this argument convincing in the slightest, and actually, when you look into the statements themselves, it's clear they aren't even supposed to be taken literally.

Let us go through each statement, individually:

First, we have this one:
For the sake of bringing down Itachi, Sasuke created this ultimate technique. Being struck by lightning taking the form of the legendary sacred beast Kirin, approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!

The first problem with this statement is that "approaching the opponent at light speed, it's superb" is suspiciously similar to other common figurative descriptions like "striking the opponent with lightning fast strikes, he's quick" which describes the attack/attacker as incredibly fast and deadly, but ultimately isn't supposed to be assumed as literal given its grammatical structure (describing something as approaching at the speed of light, then introducing another word to specifically comment on the "superb-ness" of that level of speed, isn't usually supposed to be assume literal as it's using exaggerated language to show the reader how absolutely crazy this thing is. The introduction of that type of language calls into question the legitimacy of a literal interpretation, which requires evidence of it being literal to be provided, which hasn't been provided yet)

There is also the issue of nothing in the series supporting this interpretation, and in actuality, we have direct confirmation from Zetsu that the attack is only a natural lightning bolt and has the timeframe implied by one as well. Given all contextual implications, we have literally no reason to believe the statement is literal, and we have due reason that it isn't.

Secondly, we have the next one:
The light speed strike is unavoidable, it blows away the opponent with no time to even blink!!

This statement has the same, exact problems as the previous one, but even more egregious since it's described as a "light speed strike" that is "unavoidable" and how it'll "blow away the opponent with no time to even blink". All of this language used is heavily exaggerated to show the sheer strength and speed behind Kirin, it isn't supposed to be taken literal unless we assume the strike is truly unavoidable and that it will blow away the opponent with no time to even blink. We can't just cherry pick what we believe is literal and what is figurative.

I won't even talk about the several examples of speed of light being used, rhetorically, in Naruto to exaggerate the speed of an attack or show how consistent it is that the speed of lightning is held in high regards by high-tier characters. None of this is needed when the statements themselves are, in my opinion, blatantly hyperbolic and unsupported in the main canon.

In conclusion, I think light speed Kirin should be removed; what exactly the speed of Kirin should be changed to is up for debate, but it's at least as fast as your average bolt of lightning given the context.

Voting:

Agree - @Damage3245

Disagree -

Neutral - @KingTempest (Mildly agrees with the OP)

 

[Kachon123]

This makes sense.

 

[Stryker861]

Disagree, may get to why later

 

[Godernet]

a couple of things,

Now, Black Zetsu (who I will now call Zetsu for convenience) describes Kirin as moving 1/1000 of a second, which is a general timeframe for a lightning bolt IRL, and how it surpasses the speed of sound, a description of its speed.

BZ doesn't say Kirin moves at 1/1000th of a second, he presents a theory as to why Sasuke previously claimed that Kirin was unavoidable like Amaterasu, saying that it could be because lightning is this fast.

Zetsu's statement in itself is questionable because of how many Raiton Jutsu exist and individuals with lightning-speed statements or lore.

I don't see Zetsu's hypothesis on a Jutsu he hasn't seen travel yet being more credible than a WOG statement.

Especially since this entire fight up until Obito broke Sasuke's "reality" was an illusion of Sasuke overcoming his brother by continuously breaking expectations first by overcoming the "invincible" Tsukuoymi, countering Amaterasu, creating a jutsu that no one expected, and finally "killing Itachi", all things contradictory to what Zetsu's initial belief of Sasuke was.

With everything given, it should be cut and dry that Kirin is supposed to move at the speed of lightning as it's a natural lightning bolt, and is given a timeframe which generally lines up with the speed of a lightning bolt?

While Kirin is formed from natural lightning rather than chakra, the energy used to produce Kirin was created from the heat of 8 Katon from Sasuke and Itachi's Amaterasu heating up the air.

In regards to potency, Kirin is already far above the energy capable of "just a normal lightning bolt" being 6C in destructive capacity.

This isn't the case however, no rationale is given for us to believe the statements are supposed to be taken seriously, outside of assuming that they should because it's stated so in the databooks. I don't find this argument convincing in the slightest, and actually, when you look into the statements themselves, it's clear they aren't even supposed to be taken literally.

Let us go through each statement, individually:

First, we have this one:
For the sake of bringing down Itachi, Sasuke created this ultimate technique. Being struck by lightning taking the form of the legendary sacred beast Kirin, approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!

The first problem with this statement is that "approaching the opponent at light speed, it's superb" is suspiciously similar to other common figurative descriptions like "striking the opponent with lightning fast strikes, he's quick" which describes the attack/attacker as incredibly fast and deadly, but ultimately isn't supposed to be assumed as literal given its grammatical structure (describing something has approaching at the speed of light, then introducing another word to specifically comment on the "superb-ness" of that level of speed, isn't usually supposed to be assume literal as it's using exaggerated language to show the reader how absolutely crazy this thing is. The introduction of that type of language calls into question the legitimacy of a literal interpretation, which requires evidence of the interpretation of it being literal to exist, which hasn't been proven to exist yet)

There is also the issue of nothing in the series supporting this interpretation, and in actuality, we have direct confirmation from Zetsu that the attack is only a natural lightning bolt and has the timeframe implied by one as well. Given all contextual implications, we have literally no reason to believe the statement is literal, and we have due reason that it isn't.

I personally feel like this gets a bit semantical whether or not the statement is supposed to be taken literally so I won't touch that part.

But considering Zetsu's statement is merely hypothetical what would the other rationale be for not taking this statement literally?

because without it, it seems like there's not much evidence supporting or denying Kirin being that fast. Other than the fact that it's more than one WOG statement saying the same thing.

I won't even talk about the several examples of speed of light being used, rhetorically, in Naruto to exaggerate the speed of an attack or show how consistent it is that the speed of lightning is held in high regards to high-tier characters.

Many of these other "light speed statements" are mistranslations, not the literal words "moving at light speed"

And if the speed of lightning is held in high regard but still in feasible range for many of the high tiers, many of which Zetsu has watched fight and with himself being a hidden apostle of Kaguya, why is Zetsu's "lightning is too fast to be dodged." statement to be taken seriously? Especially in a fight like this where everything Sasuke and Itachi used was not what it seemed at first glance constantly breaking expectations.

Frankly, I see the Databook entries as Kishimoto changing in retrospect how he believes Kirin's speed is should be portrayed in canon, maybe after noticing how many lightning-speed people are running around in verse like the Raikage, but who's to say.

At the very least if the entire argument relies on Zetsu, I don't see that being very reliable as oppose to the other side of the argument, especially with no contradictions in canon or connective scaling to anything in verse.

 

[Deceived3596]

BZ doesn't say Kirin moves at 1/1000th of a second, he presents a theory as to why Sasuke previously claimed that Kirin was unavoidable like Amaterasu, saying that it could be because lightning is this fast.

Zetsu's statement in itself is kinda questionable because of how many Raiton Jutsu exist and individuals with lightning-speed statements or lore.

realistically I don't see Zetsu's hypothesis on a Jutsu he hasn't seen before being more credible than a WOG statement.

Especially since this entire fight up until Obito broke Sasuke's "reality" was about Sasuke gaining confidence by continuously breaking expectations first by overcoming the "invincible" Tsukuoymi, countering Amaterasu, and finally "killing Itachi", all things contradictory to what Zetsu's initial opinion of Sasuke was.

I agree he doesn't specifically say Kirin is that speed, but he makes a logical connection of Kirin being a natural bolt of lightning and natural lightning moving at that speed. It would be up to us to prove why Zetsu's statement would be incorrect as the truth-value of his claim isn't based on his knowledge of Kirin, but a statement on real physics.

It entirely depends on the specific Raiton Jutsu used, as not all of them are considered as moving at the speed of lightning, and as well, it depends on the individuals with in-lore lightning speed statements. Unless specified and explained why it matters here, I don't think bringing up possible contradictions addresses my argument, which isn't even entirely contingent on Zetsu's statement either.

Why do you assume that being a word of god statement means it can't be affected by hyperbole?

I don't agree that just because you can introduce a narrative of Sasuke breaking past Zetsu's expectations, it would imply his Justu is significantly faster than what Zetsu has hypothesized it to be. We require actual evidence of this being the case, not us forcing a connection of two separate claims into a singular, coherent thought.

While Kirin is formed from natural lightning rather than chakra, the energy used to produce Kirin was created from the heat of 8 Katon from Sasuke and Itachi's Amaterasu heating up the air.

In regards to potency, Kirin is already far above the energy capable of "just a normal lightning bolt" being 6C in destructive capacity.

That is fine, but it doesn't prove it's faster/as fast as light. In actuality, an increase in mass usually corresponds with a decrease in speed, physically speaking. Now, I don't believe this is the case here, I just don't find this argument convincing.

personally feel like this gets a bit semantical whether or not the statement is suppose to be taken literally so I won't touch that part.

But considering Zetsu's statement is merely hypothetical what would the other rational be for not taking this statement literally?

because without it, it seems like there's not much evidence supporting or denying Kirin being that fast.

There would still be more evidence supporting it not being that fast given the semantical breakdown I explained in the OP, and how, by nature of Kirin being a natural bolt of lightning, would assumenly move at the speed of one until proven otherwise.

many of these other "light speed statements" are mistranslation so i wouldn't compare them to this example.

If the speed of lightning is held in high regard but still in feasible range for many of the high tiers, many of which Zetsu has watched fight and with himself being a hidden apostle of Kaguya, why is Zetsu's "lightning is too fast to be dodged." to be taken seriously?

Frankly, I see the Databook entries as Kishimoto changing in retrospect how he believes Kirin's speed is supposed to be portrayed in canon after noticing how many lightning-speed people are running around in verse but I know not everyone will see it that way.

At the very least if the entire argument relies on Zetsu, I don't see that being very reliable.

I don't know or really care if it's many or all, the main crux of my argument would still stay true. Those statements have no reason, outside of conjecture, to be believed as being literal.

I don't see how that is relevant when I never claimed it is nor is it important to the conclusion I reached, which is that Kirin is simply more supported to move around these natural speeds of lighting rather than us assuming it's light speed based on two extraggratory statements from the databooks.

I can't really address that since it's just your opinion and not an argument, but if you believe so, that is fine.

It's not entirely reliant on Zetsu, but it's a portion of it. If you disagree with the Zetsu stuff, I still believe my argument would hold true, regardless.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I should prob point out that " "approaching the opponent at light speed is not at all a common figurative term in japanese, like Light and straight up "moving at lightspeed" is far more common in japanese. Lightning fast is very much also not that common in japanese, its more commonly found in English dialect. which is why you can find many light speed or like light japanese kanji get translated to lightning speed or as fast as lightning by localizers as its a term english readers are going to be much more familiar with.

Obviously this doesnt mean it cant be figurative, thats context based but its not nearly that common.

as a side note Kirin has more lightspeed statements outside of those 2.

 

[Deceived3596]

as a side note Kirin has more lightspeed statements outside of those 2.

If you can provide these it would be appreciated, as Sasuke's profile only gives us two, and I believe those two are complete cheeks.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Atm I think I'm leaning with Deceived's interpretation here. To sum up my thoughts, we have very much due reason to doubt the light speed statements as literal, when it is for a technique that is explicitly natural lightning. Now, while it is far more energetic than an average lightning bolt, it's also far larger than an average lightning bolt, meaning it's much more massive. And as Deceived said, that explains away, physically speaking, the increase in energy. It also seems to be the case that Sasuke essentially pulls all the lightning from that storm cloud into a single bolt (hence why the bolt would be so much larger than normal lightning) and that is supported by statements claiming Sasuke is using all the ambient energy in the cloud. The reason I bring this up is, mushing a bunch of lightning bolts together, shaping them in this giant kirin shape, wouldn't increase the natural lightning speed at all. So, outside of parroting what Deceived already said, I'd say I'm in agreement with removing the SoL rating until we are given solid evidence as to why we should interpret those statements as literal, beyond just semantics gooning. Since, end of the day the context surrounding those statements is more important when evaluating them than anyone's ability to twist rhetoric, etc etc.

 

[Damage3245]

I've always disagreed with the current rating.

The OP has further re-convinced me that it should be removed, so I agree with the revision.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That is fine, but it doesn't prove it's faster/as fast as light. In actuality, an increase in mass usually corresponds with a decrease in speed, physically speaking. Now, I don't believe this is the case here, I just don't find this argument convincing.

don't agree with this,A lightning bolt's speed isn't affected by its "heaviness" because it is an electrical discharge, not a physical object with mass; it travels through ionized air, and its speed depends on the electrical field strength and atmospheric conditions.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

don't agree with this,A lightning bolt's speed isn't affected by its "heaviness" because it is an electrical discharge, not a physical object with mass; it travels through ionized air, and its speed depends on the electrical field strength and atmospheric conditions.

It is a physical object with mass. It's a bunch of electrons.

 

[Godernet]

I agree he doesn't specifically say Kirin is that speed, but he makes a logical connection of Kirin being a natural bolt of lightning and natural lightning moving at that speed. It would be up to us to prove why Zetsu's statement would be incorrect as the truth-value of his claim isn't based on his knowledge of Kirin, but a statement on real physics.

I agree, however,

• A 6C Lightning Bolt doesn't exist in nature.
• The energy provided was through Sasuke and Itachi's ninjutsu generating an intense heat that formed a cumulonimbus in minutes if not seconds. not solely the natural energy in the atmosphere.
• The Jutsu is still being directed by a small amount of Raiton Chakra via Sasuke.

- It turns into a literal Dragon before dropping to hit Itachi

We have a lot to gauge that Kirin isn't simply something that can be quantified with knowledge of real-world physics.

It entirely depends on the specific Raiton Jutsu used, as not all of them are considered as moving at the speed of lightning, and as well, it depends on the individuals with in-lore lightning speed statements.

This was more of a side point so I don't think it necessary to dive into every single ninjutsu or character with lightning-speed implications (I'm also lazy)

Why do you assume that being a word of god statement means it can't be affected by hyperbole?

I believe a WOG statement can be hyperbolic.

But if the only argument that warrants skepticism is:

• from before the ability is used
• by an individual who has never seen the ability
• utilizing real-world logic when to form the energy needed for this jutsu they used supernatural means.
• an attack far above what a real-world lightning bolt would be capable of in potency.

I don't see a reason to take Zetsu's first impressions and question something created in retrospect by the author.

We have countless examples in the databooks of statements being made in clear figurative language, which isn't supposed to be assumed as literal. Examples would include Itachi's Water Bullets, Anbu's light speed movement

iirc the Anbu one was a mistranslation that actually stated lightning speed, and Itachi's was never something as straightforward as "moving at the light speed"

I don't agree that just because you can introduce a narrative of Sasuke breaking past Zetsu's expectations, it would imply his Justu is significantly faster than what Zetsu has hypothesized it to be. We require actual evidence of this being the case, not us forcing a connection of two separate claims into a singular, coherent thought.

If there's a precedence in the fight of Zetsu having been wrong in his opinions on more than one occasion then doesn't that bring skepticism to his validity to make an assumption like "this jutsu that I've never seen must follow the real world natural laws of lightning bolts because it's comprised of real lightning."

That is fine, but it doesn't prove it's faster/as fast as light. In actuality, an increase in mass usually corresponds with a decrease in speed, physically speaking. Now, I don't believe this is the case here, I just don't find this argument convincing.

nothing has to prove it faster than light or lightning speed.

this portion of the argument hinges on Zetsu's hypothesis for Kirin using real-world applications being correct.

When in reality the energy came from ninjutsu, and the effect isn't natural at all.

There would still be more evidence supporting it not being that fast given the semantical breakdown I explained in the OP, and how, by nature of Kirin being a natural bolt of lightning, would assumenly move at the speed of one until proven otherwise.

why does it being composed of natural lightning supersede that the energy it was formed with is supernatural with the effects being far greater than scientifically possible?

Does Zetsu's claim take into account that Sasuke was going to funnel the entire cloud's worth of energy into a bolt that he directs with his own chakra?

And if so how does he come to the conclusion that this much greater bolt of lightning will hold the same speed as a regular one?

It's not entirely reliant on Zetsu, but it's a portion of it. If you disagree with the Zetsu stuff, I still believe my argument would hold true, regardless.

If we don't accept the Zetsu statement, all we're left with is the interpretation that the light-speed statements structurally seem hyperbolic but what else backs that claim?

Many of the other databook scans for light speed are mistranslations and don't even say light speed, so I wouldn't call that concrete evidence against these two. Unless I've missed something in your argument.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

It is a physical object with mass. It's a bunch of electrons

Its objectively not
the electrons have mass but lightning itself is a process.

Lightning involves electrons with mass moving through ionized air, but it's not a physical object because it's a transient electrical discharge, not a solid entity with shape and volume.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Its objectively not
the electrons have mass but lightning itself is a process.

Lightning involves electrons with mass moving through ionized air, but it's not a physical object because it's a transient electrical discharge, not a solid entity with shape and volume.

The lightning bolt has mass. Stop being a goon. We can speak colloquially here, it's why when you google mass of a lightning bolt you get the mass of the sum of electrons.

 

[Kachon123]

I agree, however,

• A 6C Lightning Bolt doesn't exist in nature.
• The energy provided was through Sasuke and Itachi's ninjutsu generating an intense heat that formed a cumulonimbus in minutes if not seconds. not solely the natural energy in the atmosphere.
• The Jutsu is still being directed by a small amount of Raiton Chakra via Sasuke.

I don't really think this proves why Kirin should be faster than a natural lightning bolt.

 

[Damage3245]

Just want to note as well that other Raiton jutsu existing is not a defense of lightspeed Kirin. Most Raiton jutsu are not actually lightning speed.

 

[Godernet]

I don't really think this proves why Kirin should be faster than a natural lightning bolt.

no one is trying to prove that it is or isn't

the main argument against its currently rated speed is found via an unreliable source that's the main issue.

 

[Godernet]

Just want to note as well that other Raiton jutsu existing is not a defense of lightspeed Kirin. Most Raiton jutsu are not actually lightning speed.

most yes, but some exist that are, and are regularly used in combat by lesser shinobi than Sasuke, without this same grandiose presentation of being undodgeable.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

no one is trying to prove that it is or isn't

the main argument against its currently rated speed is found via an unreliable source that's the main issue.

Deceived main argument isn’t that the source is unreliable, it’s that it’s hyperbolic, unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying? Hop in vc it’s faster than typing

 

[Deceived3596]

@Godernet I'll respond later since I'm in VC with Arc right now and don't feel like debating textually while also talking.

 

[Damage3245]

most yes, but some exist that are, and are regularly used in combat by lesser shinobi than Sasuke, without this same grandiose presentation of being undodgeable.

That suggests the possibility that we may be overrating them.

But I'll avoid going into that on here so that we don't get sidetracked from Kirin itself.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The lightning bolt has mass. Stop being a goon. We can speak colloquially here,

it objectively and scientifically does not

it's why when you google mass of a lightning bolt you get the mass of the sum of electrons.

maybe you shouldn't be googling it then?

the first results that pop up for mass are from people answering on a forum, and even then in that context, what they are talking about is the total charge or total number of electrons involved in a typical lightning discharge, rather than the mass of a physical object called a "lightning bolt.

"Lightning itself does not have mass in the traditional sense. Lightning is a flow of electrically charged particles (electrons and ions) moving through the atmosphere. These charged particles are a form of electromagnetic energy rather than matter, so they do not have mass in the way that solid objects do."

Lightning isn't a physical object its a discharge.

1. National Geographic - Lightning:
   • National Geographic explains lightning as an electrical discharge caused by imbalances between storm clouds and the ground, emphasizing its rapid electrical discharge and the resulting phenomena like thunder. (Source)
2. University of Illinois Physics Department - Lightning Physics:
   • The University of Illinois discusses lightning as a transient, high-current electrical discharge with a focus on its potential gradient between different charge regions within thunderstorm clouds and between clouds and the ground. (Source)
3. NASA - Lightning Research at Marshall Space Flight Center:
   • NASA describes lightning as a giant electrical spark that moves within or between clouds and between clouds and the ground, highlighting its electrical nature and atmospheric impact. (Source)

its the equivalent of finding the mass of fire/explosion based on how heavy the oil is.

that being said this is going way off topic, given the mass of the electrons do not effect the speed of lightning in anycase. and you and deceived both already know my thoughts in regards to what i think the Lightspeed stuff actually is

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m not disagreeing with that, but you realize words and phrases can have colloquial meanings that differ from their literal scientific definition.

 

[Stryker861]

Godernet has pretty much said most of my thoughts. I don't find the hyperbolic and zetsu arguments convincing at all.

I would also like to add "approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!" This is as straightforward of a speed statement as it gets. To me, its a huge reach to take this as hyperbolic when it states verbatim how fast it travels and then simply says the justu is amazing. Theres a lot of needless skepticism with this statment in the op .

 

[Testarossa002]

it depends on the individuals with in-lore lightning speed statements. Unless specified and explained why it matters here, I don't think bringing up possible contradictions addresses my argument, which isn't even entirely contingent on Zetsu's statement either.

Lore wise, Teen kakashi is famed to be able to react to a CTG lightning and cut it in the same vein
Whether or not the calc makes him lightning speed is actually irrelevant
The point is that he can react to lightning
3T Itachi was more or less relative to a stronger kakashi
Add the MS on top
And Sasuke should be well aware of Itachi's speed since he just fought him
There's no way he thought that a CTG lightning which teen kakashi could take action against would blitz MS Itachi
Unless people believe Teen Kakashi with just a sharingan has better reactions than Itachi with Mangekyo
There's also the small matter of adult kakashi intercepting an attack that was described to be a lightning bolt

that it will blow away the opponent with no time to even blink

Which is exactly what happened (if you subscribe to the interpretation that itachi's armour was destroyed by Kirin) or what should have happened (Itachi was going to die per his own words without susano's. Something Sasuke didn't know existed)

I won't even talk about the several examples of speed of light being used, rhetorically, in Naruto to exaggerate the speed of an attack

The only ones that exists inverse that i know of are:
1. Haku's Mirrors
2. Kirin
3. Heavenly Transfer
4. Issen
5. Light Fang
All of which are currently accepted in various capacities
So no. there aren't several examples

That is fine, but it doesn't prove it's faster/as fast as light. In actuality, an increase in mass usually corresponds with a decrease in speed, physically speaking. Now, I don't believe this is the case here, I just don't find this argument convincing.

It does prove that it isn't natural lightning. Or better put, naturally occurring lightning
For Zetsu, again,
1. he's giving an explanation based off what he knows about naturally occurring lightning.
2. Him asserting that it's unavoidable because it moves in the timeframe of regular lightning is instantly debunked when itachi reacts in time to prevent a direct hit like 5 pages later. Itachi, who we and Zetsu himself know pales in comparison to hashirama and madara. Even if you go with the stance of him speaking based off those who are currently existing, Itachi still contradicts that.

For the statements themselves
For the first one, "it's superb" also works as an additional description to "approaching at light speed". Not sure why the default interpretation is that it's not literal.
That it's telling the readers how crazy it is just means that it is telling the readers how crazy/impressive/noteworthy a lightning giraffe moving at light speed is.
It absolutely does not discredit the preceeding statement from being literal
"A bugatti moves from 0-90kph in 2 seconds, it's superb" tells us the speed and how impressive said speed is.

There's also the matter of a different translation. I put the statement into two different machines and got speed of light instead of light speed which gives it more credibility. Perhaps, human translators can take a look at it and give us a 4th perspective.
Chatgpt

Kirin (Sasuke) Employing lightning as well!! The ultimate technique Sasuke developed to defeat Itachi. The lightning attack, shaped like the legendary spirit beast Kirin, approaches the opponent at the speed of light, creating an overwhelming spectacle!!

DeepL

Kirin (Sasuke)
Sasuke created this ultimate technique to defeat the Itachi. The lightning strike, which is based on the legendary Kirin, a spiritual beast, approaches the opponent at the speed of light. ‼︎

For the other one, as referenced above, it does to that. It's not an exaggeration if it does or was going to do exactly that. As with the first one, the default interpretation isn't that it's an exaggeration. It's an added description first and foremost. Then we can look at the showings and decide if it’s an exaggeration.

 

[KingTempest]

Neutral, leaning towards mildly agreeing

 

[Golden_Void]

I didn't even know that upgrade existed. So natural lightning is rated as light speed in the verse basically?

 

[Stryker861]

I didn't even know that upgrade existed. So natural lightning is rated as light speed in the verse basically?

Literally no one said this

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Neutral, leaning towards mildly agreeing

Speaking of Naruto downgrades, didn't you say a while back that you wanted to get rid of Nardo's self-sustenance?

 

[Nami_Kami]

The entire argument is based on using the Zetsu statement, which is known as one of the most inconsistent and contradictory statements in the show. Thus there is no reason to take it above WoG. We know that Kirin is beyond a natural lightning in speed since the verse already has many MHS+ characters, which by extension means that if Kirin was limited to lightning-speed they'd have no issue dodging it given the distance.

We see Kirin isn't limited to a natural lightning because it displays properties no natural lightning has, such as it's much greater destructive power and abillity to roar. Which implies Sasuke was amping it through his technique regardless of whether or not it was a naturally occuring lightning. Which is consistent with it being verbatim stated that a weapon's power depends on it's user in that same fight.

Whether it has mass or not does not matter, it's still verbatim stated to be a light-speed twice.

 

[Damage3245]

We know that Kirin is beyond a natural lightning in speed since the verse already has many MHS+ characters

Those MHS+ characters are only MHS+ because of our calcs which are not infallible. They don't weight heavily as strong counter-evidence against a statement from a knowledgeable character.

We know that Kirin isn't limited to a natural lightning because it displays properties no natural lightning has, such as it's much greater destructive power and abillity to roar. Which implies Sasuke was amping it.

Neither of these imply that Sasuke was amping its speed specifically. Amping its destructive power beyond that of an ordinary lightning bolt? Sure, that's self-demonstrative.

 

[Deceived3596]

I've talked with @Godernet in VC and while he still disagrees with me, he can see where I'm coming from and doesn't wish to continue the debate any longer, so I won't be addressing his arguments.

I'll address the arguments from others in due time.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Those MHS+ characters are only MHS+ because of our calcs which are not infallible. They don't weight heavily as strong counter-evidence against a statement from a knowledgeable character.


Neither of these imply that Sasuke was amping its speed specifically. Amping its destructive power beyond that of an ordinary lightning bolt? Sure, that's self-demonstrative.

Zetsu's statement is again known as perhaps the most contradictory statement in Naruto. He hypes up sound-speed, like we haven't seen that being child's play to P1 characters. He implies that nobody can avoid Kirin when a heavily weakened and dying Itachi did. And he made the false claim that the lightning is natural when we know Sasuke was amping it. He also claims Sasuke is out of Chakra and isn't using such despite Sasuke literally being seen using a Chidori when he controlled it. A move that requires Chakra. And he's never seen Kirin before, nor has anyone else, so there is no reason to believe he had knowledge on how the Jutsu functions. There is nothing to establish Zetsu as being reliable about Kirin, and if anything he loses all of his credibility on this matter during this scene. This entire thing is simply a case of inconsistent writing and statements. I'd say those calcs + WoG have more weight.

Is there any reason for us to believe that Sasuke won't be amping it in speed? Chakra amps all of your stats, including speed. If it amps it's power why would we believe it won't amp it's speed?

 

[Godernet]

Deceived said he’d give me a Netherite pickaxe if I abandoned y’all

 

[Damage3245]

He implies that nobody can avoid Kirin when a heavily weakened and dying Itachi did.

Itachi specifically did not avoid or dodge Kirin. He blocked it with his Susano'o which Zetsu did not expect him to have.

And he made the false claim that the lightning is natural when we know Sasuke was amping it.

The lightning itself was natural lightning. Sasuke merely guided and directed it.

He also claims Sasuke is out of Chakra and isn't using such despite Sasuke literally being seen using a Chidori when he controlled it.

Sasuke himself says that he doesn't have any chakra left... Itachi backs that up too.

Is there any reason for us to believe that Sasuke won't be amping it in speed? Chakra amps all of your stats, including speed. If it amps it's power why would we believe it won't amp it's speed?

Sasuke claims that he doesn't have any chakra left. What chakra is he using to amp the Kirin?

 

[Nami_Kami]

Itachi specifically did not avoid or dodge Kirin. He blocked it with his Susano'o which Zetsu did not expect him to have.


The lightning itself was natural lightning. Sasuke merely guided and directed it.


Sasuke himself says that he doesn't have any chakra left... Itachi backs that up too.


Sasuke claims that he doesn't have any chakra left. What chakra is he using to amp the Kirin?

Blocking it qualifies as avoiding it. But even if we were to not count this, you do realize we have characters like Raikage and a whole bunch of other top-tiers that are easily lightning-timers low-balled, and they would have no issue avoiding it, right? In fact, Zetsu is aware of Kaguya and the other Otsutsuki. FTL characters. No matter how we slice this, this statement is contradictory.

Sasuke didn't merely guide it as we see Kirin cause destruction beyond any natural lightning. We also see Kirin roar and it's also verbatim said to be a mythical beast. So we know there was more than a natural lightning at play.

Sasuke is directly seen using a Chidori. In fact in Naruto we know that If you use up your Chakra you'll die of your Chakra you'll die, so the statement of Susuke having no Chakra would either be Sasuke lying to catch them off-guard or an Oxymoron. Regardless the end-result is that Sasuke was not out of Chakra. I'd say showings have more value than statements. It doesn't matter what a character claims if actions prove that false. In this case that happened and Sasuke showcases he had Chakra.

Didn't you agree earlier that Sasuke amped it's power?

And again, is there any reason for Zetsu to be a reliable character regarding Kirin? Because as I've said, there is every reason for him not to be.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Note that Sasuke also had Sharingan on, something that requires Chakra. So we have 3 physical pieces of evidence disproving any claim he was out of Chakra.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I agree with the thread.

 

[Damage3245]

Blocking it qualifies as avoiding it. But even if we were to not count this, you do realize we have characters like Raikage and a whole bunch of other top-tiers that are easily lightning-timers low-balled, and they would have no issue avoiding it, right? In fact, Zetsu is aware of Kaguya and the other Otsutsuki. FTL characters. No matter how we slice this, this statement is contradictory.

Speaking strictly from a meta perspective at the moment, Kaguya and the other Otsutsuki's did not exist in the story at this time, nor did their FTL feats. It's fine to say that the statement could be retconned later but at the time the statement was made it was valid.

Speaking in-verse, Kaguya and these Otsutsuki characters weren't around on Earth. There'd be no reason for Black Zetsu to take them into account in a general statement which is clearly referring to typical shinobi, not gods. And while the characters may be lightning-timers that doesn't necessarily mean they'd be able to avoid such a large-scale fast jutsu. It isn't just Black Zetsu but Sasuke too who expresses confidence in its inability to be dodged.

Now, I'm not claiming it is literally impossible for it to be dodged because these characters expressed their opinion that this is the case. Remember that the Raikage, while heightening himself to extreme speed, was able to dodge the supposedly undodgeable Amatersu.

So yes, some characters can theoretically be able to dodge Kirin as well. That doesn't mean Sasuke or Black Zetsu are wrong in the rest of their statements.

Sasuke didn't merely guide it as we see Kirin cause destruction beyond any natural lightning. We also see Kirin roar and it's also verbatim said to be a mythical beast. So we know there was more than a natural lightning at play.

I'm literally quoting Sasuke himself who states that he is "in short, merely guiding its power" toward his target.

Sasuke is directly seen using a Chidori. In fact in Naruto we know that If you use up your Chakra you'll die of your Chakra you'll die, so the statement of Susuke having no Chakra would either be Sasuke lying to catch them off-guard or an Oxymoron. Regardless the end-result is that Sasuke was not out of Chakra. I'd say showings have more value than statements. It doesn't matter what a character claims if actions prove that false. In this case that happened and Sasuke showcases he had Chakra.

From the context it's easy to interpret their lines as meaning "Having no chakra left to do another jutsu" while still having enough bare minimum chakra to stay alive. Both Itachi and Sasuke say that Sauske has no chakra.

Didn't you agree earlier that Sasuke amped it's power?

Not in that sense. Sasuke's jutsu, Kirin, directs all of the lightning available in a single strike. We can see actual lightning bolts going off in the background while the jutsu is building up. What Sasuke directs with Kirin is much bigger than these bolts, and so it is more destructive. That is how the lightning is "amped." But while using all of the available lightning makes sense to make it more destructive, I don't know if that makes sense to say it is necessarily much faster.

 

[Ezaru]

Naruto characters are not just MHS because of calcs.

There are statements for Raikage and Kakashi that put them at lightning speed in the series/databooks.

So it does make sense that Kirin would be faster than lightning