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Kirby Cosmology Upgrade

Peptocoptr27 said:
I already explained that infinite universe are irrelevant to a Low 1-C ranking. Staff members agree with that notion and so does the FAQ. Read the previous posts again if you have to.
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I already do and just pointing it out.

In any case, though I not sure if this is truly qualitative superior or not as whatever this qualified as Low 1C.

Edit: Still completely neutral
 
I agree with points like Ultima's. Some translations for transcendence points can mean multiple things like crossing over; we tend to go with the lowest interpretation based on the context of translation. On an argument, Another Road seems more like an external connecting space to other realms from its showing and evidence, which makes the points weaker than other cases mentioned above. The space doesn't seem to be a higher world above reality, to me.
 
Elizhaa said:
I agree with points like Ultima's. Some translations for transcendence points can mean multiple things like crossing over; we tend to go with the lowest interpretation based on the context of translation. On an argument, Another Road seems more like an external connecting space to other realms from its showing and evidence, which makes the points weaker than other cases mentioned above. The space doesn't seem to be a higher world above reality, to me.
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I know this is completely unrelated to the thread, but what's your profile pic?
 
It is a random image online; I won't continue more on this point here since it would derail.
 
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Tarang123 said:
I know, but it just makes the Archie stuff more credible for Low 1C.
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There's no reason for that to be the case. You could just argue that puts it higher into 2-A, which the opposition did argue, but it failed. The reasons why it failed have already been pointed out in the posts above, and those same reasons should apply to Kirby (especially when Blazblue is Low 1-C for even less).
Tarang123 said:
The thing is, "超える" refers to a superiority, not qualitative. A qualitative superiority needs something more than just the kanji.
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Being qualitatively superior means you're better than something by an uncountable amount. At least that's what the staff members on this Wiki say. By default, being superior to the concepts of space-time and or the pre-established dimensions of the verse should qualify (especially since AD has both of those), because how are you supposed to be finitely superior to already uncountable/infinite concepts? This "higher than 4D, but less than 5D" stuff makes no sense. Are you implying AD is 4.5D? Maybe some kind of 2-A structure? I don't get it.
Tarang123 said:
It's less of disagreeing, but more of neutral likely/possibly disagreeing. I agreed that there were a lot of really strong points, but I've just been reading through everything and looking through the tiering system, and I'm a bit more neutral now.
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Alright, I'll re-edit the votes then.
Tarang123 said:
I was basically just making a point that it makes more sense for a superiority of space and time to be Low 1C when the cosmology is already countably infinite in terms of 4D structures.
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It sounds like it does, but it doesn't. Nothing said here, in the FAQ, or in the Tiering System supports this point.
Tarang123 said:
I didn't see anything like that in the OP, but I'm dumb, so could you just post them here again?
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That's why I'll be providing it later. I'll elaborate on some of the more complex topics of the blog. I didn't think I would need to, but I do have a lot to say. Again, it's gonna take a little while though.
Tarang123 said:
Well, what I'm saying is that one can be superior to 4D structures, while not being 5D. Simply being superior to 4D structures isn't Low 1C, there's more to it than that.
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I could maybe understand that logic when it comes to a character's power level, but when it comes to a realm, it doesn't make sense. Especially since we're talking about being superior to space and time as concepts. You don't need superiority over the space-time of infinite universes as long as you're superior to the pre-established space-time continuums of your respective cosmology.
Tarang123 said:
Thing is, they clarify that superiority over space and time has to be on an infinite degree.
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...which a qualitative superiority is enough to qualify for as long as there's evidence to support said superiority.
Tarang123 said:
Yeah, I'm not against a possibly low 1C, I just don't think it would be a solid Low 1C, so it would only be possibly. What I meant by that original comment was that the Kirby cosmology makes it fairly vague as to how big this superiority over space and time is.

Again, I'm not really disagreeing, but I'm back to neutral. I apologize if it wasn't really that clear before cause I did say disagreeing and stuff like that.
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It's fine. Misunderstandings happen pretty often on here. I wonder what everyone else thinks about a "Possibly" or "Likely" Low 1-C.
Elizhaa said:
I agree with points like Ultima's. Some translations for transcendence points can mean multiple things like crossing over; we tend to go with the lowest interpretation based on the context of translation.
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Which means that if I can prove that the kanjis describing AD's relationship with space-time and dimensions (超える) does refer to an actual superiority and nothing else, you'll agree with Low 1-C? By the way, I already said that the English word "transcend" has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Have you read it the whole way through?
Elizhaa said:
On an argument, Another Road seems more like an external connecting space to other realms from its showing and evidence, which makes the points weaker than other cases mentioned above. The space doesn't seem to be a higher world above reality, to me.
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Most of the statements are made about AD's road, but Another Dimension isn't JUST a road, and even if it was, it wouldn't change its role in the grand scheme of the cosmology. I feel like that's a mis-conception worth bringing up, which is why I did so in the blog. It also doesn't just connect physical universes. It contains and connects timelines.
 
I think it should not work. I still disagree, theirs is not enough evidence for even a Possibly or Likely. And no, nothing you have said has changed my mind, it only makes me think we need to remake the FAQ page so it's easier to understand what's actually needed.
 
If you need to change your standards to deny the upgrade, I consider that a victory, if you simply think I misunderstood the page, then explain to me what I missed or how I misinterpreted it, and what more Kirby cosmology needs in order to qualify for "Possibly", "Likely" or outright Low 1-C.
Peptocoptr27 said:
Which means that if I can prove that the kanjis describing AD's relationship with space-time and dimensions (超える) does refer to an actual superiority and nothing else, you'll agree with Low 1-C?
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Your victory requires the consent of multiple Staff members though, and all of them who have visited here so far have had similar opinions to mine.
 
That's kind of why it's such an uphill debate for me and all other supporters, but if you'd just answer my questions instead of ignoring and leaving, it would definitely be a lot more fair.
 
You have to prove said Transcendence is Qualitative in nature, that containing 4D objects inside itself is not enough, and we don't care what Kanji or dictionary says we only operate through feats and statements, not names and titles.
 
DaReaperMan said:
The victory is because you changed something to make Kirby not Low 1-C. Neither the QnA page and Tiering System pages dictate a qualitative superiority only simple superiority. That is fact.
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Please change the standards if that is the case.
 
Everything12 said:
we only operate through feats and statements
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I can't believe I'm saying this but... Definitions are the reason that words work. No matter the language. Words are what make up statements. You can't just ignore the definition of words, or else every statement that ever existed would lose all its meaning... That would be bias and denial the likes of which I've never seen before. The whole reason the terms "transcend" and "beyond" aren't reliable for tier 1 stuff is because those terms can mean a multitude of things that don't necessarily translate to superiority of any kind, and so we have to go with the lower estimation (that being residing outside of something or crossing it). "超える" literally only means one thing and to ignore that would be going against the author's intent, and for what? Just because the English translations use more vague terms? Even though Kirby is a Japanese series with loads of mistranslations? What?
By the way, I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Looking over the blog, I don't think nitpicking the exact meaning of the kanji involved is very optimal when it comes to proving Low 1-C, especially since most of these have quite a few different definitions than the ones you provide.

For instance, "超え" (Which seems to be derived from 超える) can also translated as "to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of)", which certainly fits more with the context of the statements, which seem to be referring to an inter-dimensional tunnel leading to another dimension apart from the normal timeline, and given that the other statements use similar characters and are mostly just reiterating the same thing, it's safe to assume the same applies to them. So, abusing buzzwords like that probably won't fly here, especially not in light of that context.

"Space between dimensions" is also excessively vague, and assuming it to be some all-encompassing bulk in which universes are embedded seems to require quite a few leaps of logic, made particularly obvious by how it's referred to as a tunnel leading to Another Dimension and described in terms that more closely resemble a portal or a gateway than anything else.



"Extra-dimensional" is an adjective that's constantly used to refer to things pertaining to other universes and the like, and given what these scans are referring to, the same applies here, so you'd need vastly better evidence to show that they are indeed referring to higher-dimensional space or similar. Likewise, "beyond the space-time continuum" is a description that'd be perfectly fine to use in reference to anything that's outside of the boundaries of a given spacetime, including parallel universes existing on the same general "level" as it, so, without the above statements serving as the meat of the argument, those scans are all pretty useless.

So, yeah, all-in-all, I don't see no Low 1-C here.
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Just to quote his response as it is basically the arguments of semantics ngl.
 
Meticulously arguing the specifics of kanji seems unappealing because that isn’t my native language, but I can ask who’d this scale or what stat it’s affect?
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Meticulously arguing the specifics of kanji seems unappealing because that isn’t my native language, but I can ask who’d this scale or what stat it’s affect?
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Probably just about everyone in and after Return to Dreamland unless Magalor never nuked AD fully.
 
They don't need to change the standard if they can just ignore those questions that they can't answer and this thread will last for an eternity
 
Delta333 said:
They don't need to change the standard if they can just ignore those questions that they can't answer and this thread will last for an eternity
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Honestly, the thread is likely going to get closed anyway just because almost all the staff denied the revision.
 
Ignoring the missing info on the FAQ and Tiering System page for now, I just have 2 questions left:
1: How can one be superior to 4D structures, but not be 5D to begin with? How does one finitely surpass infinite concepts and what does that imply tier wise?
2: When it comes to someone or something existing above the established dimensions of a series, are the standards the same as for surpassing space and time? As in, it needs to be proven to be unquantifiable above? (If so, the standards are once again gonna get changed on the FAQ, and at least several verses are gonna get downgraded)
 
Livinmeme said:
another DBH moment
Click to expand...
Low 2-C Bleach, too.
Delta333 said:
They don't need to change the standard if they can just ignore those questions that they can't answer and this thread will last for an eternity
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They can only do that for so long. If people care about the thread, that is.
Tarang123 said:
Honestly, the thread is likely going to get closed anyway just because almost all the staff denied the revision.
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Then another one will take its place. That would be an abuse of power.
 
Bump
Peptocoptr27 said:
Ignoring the missing info on the FAQ and Tiering System page for now, I just have 2 questions left:
1: How can one be superior to 4D structures, but not be 5D to begin with? How does one finitely surpass infinite concepts and what does that imply tier wise?
2: When it comes to someone or something existing above the established dimensions of a series, are the standards the same as for surpassing space and time? As in, it needs to be proven to be unquantifiable above? (If so, the standards are once again gonna get changed on the FAQ, and at least several verses are gonna get downgraded)
Click to expand...
 
Magolor didn't nuke AD. It still exists after his death. We can only use it as a 4-A feat. Anything higher is purely speculatory.

Just wanted to say that.

I still disagree but I'm not going to argue semantics. A change to the QnA and all is fine by me since me and the mods so far seemed to have a collective idea of what qualifies as higher dimensions that didn't seem to be stated in those pages.
 
Let's not discuss the scaling right now. This is already loaded enough.
By the way, Magolor never died in the story
 
Bump Just two more questions. Don't give up on me now
Peptocoptr27 said:
Ignoring the missing info on the FAQ and Tiering System page for now, I just have 2 questions left:
1: How can one be superior to 4D structures, but not be 5D to begin with? How does one finitely surpass infinite concepts and what does that imply tier wise?
2: When it comes to someone or something existing above the established dimensions of a series, are the standards the same as for surpassing space and time? As in, it needs to be proven to be unquantifiable above? (If so, the standards are once again gonna get changed on the FAQ, and at least several verses are gonna get downgraded)
Click to expand...
If there's a place where I can ask these questions without taking up space on this thread, do let me know, but it seems like the best solution at the moment is to fully clear things up right here, right now.
 
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