King additional justifications

[Eseseso]

No AP changes, just some additional justifications for King based on his feats while fighting Zoro.

1. His Hybrid Form's attack made Zoro cough up blood, even though Zoro had used Buso to counter King's attack (since you can see dark lightning when they clash). This changes nothing Ap-wise, but considering that Zoro in the previous key had taken hits from the Yonko both on-screen and off-screen and (asides from Hakai and the Thunder Bagua that hit him when he was severely weakened) had not much more than bruises, this is IMO at least impressive enough to be noted on Zoan King's AP write-up.

2. His Zoan form clashed with Enma Zoro, and while we only see the Enma up close when their clash ends, it's clear that Zoro was using Enma during that entire brief clash.

2a. First off, there'd be no reason for him to use Enma to hurt Flame-off King (yes, he used Hao the first time but we also see Enma Haki on his blades), and then all of a sudden deactivate it.

2b. Second, the end of their clash shows that Zoro was using it.

2c. Zoro said that if he didn't end the fight soon, Enma's full power would kill him, and it doesn't make sense that using Enma's full power 2 short times at the point would make Zoro feel like Enma was draining enough of his energy to kill him. It seems far more likely that he'd been using Enma during that entire clash with Zoan King, which is why it was draining Zoro's energy to a dangerous degree.


3. In relation to the above, Zoro didn't think his Unleashed Enma could damage King with the flames on, which should be added as a durability feat to base Flame-On King.

4. Flame-Off King took 2 Hao Infused attacks from Zoro and, asides from bleeding, was able to quickly recover from the first one (even though the first one also had Enma amping it, as clearly shown on Zoro's blades after the slash), and was able to continue fighting after the second one (though it did seem to definitely hurt him more, as he was bleeding from the mouth). This should be noted on his profile.

5. Speaking of Zoro's Haoshoku Infusion, although Buso King was being pushed back by Zoro's Hao Infusion (as currently noted on Zoro's profile for his Hao Infusion justification), he was still shown as capable of holding his own and blocking Zoro's Haoshoku Infused blades. We also know it's Hao Infusion since Zoro says Flame-On King was scared of his attacks, even though Zoro's normal Buso was unable of harming Flame-On King.

All these feats should be added to King's profile in his justifications.

 

[Eminiteable]

1. His Hybrid Form's attack made Zoro cough up blood, even though Zoro had used Buso to counter King's attack (since you can see dark lightning when they clash). This changes nothing Ap-wise, but considering that Zoro in the previous key had taken hits from the Yonko both on-screen and off-screen and (asides from Hakai and the Thunder Bagua that hit him when he was severely weakened) had not much more than bruises, this is IMO at least impressive enough to be noted on Zoan King's AP write-up.

This is fine, but besides a strike from Zeus what hits from the Yonko did Zoro take besides the Hakai & Thunder Bagua?

2. His Zoan form clashed with Enma Zoro, and while we only see the Enma up close when their clash ends, it's clear that Zoro was using Enma during that entire brief clash.

How is this clear when we can see all three swords clearly in the two shots before without any signs of Enma's aura on them, showing that he clearly wasn't using it. We also see that the moment Zoro does use Enma is the moment King's knocked away from him; Zoro stopped King from relentlessly attacking him.

2a. First off, there'd be no reason for him to use Enma to hurt Flame-off King (yes, he used Hao the first time but we also see Enma Haki on his blades), and then all of a sudden deactivate it.

Here's a reason, it's killing him everytime he uses it so why would he still be using it when he climbed up out of the basement & when he was taunting king. We see panels prior that the aura is clearly visible in small panels yet not when they clash, showing that he just wasn't using it in that instance.

2b. Second, the end of their clash shows that Zoro was using it.

Already responded to this, but this is also what resulted in the end of the clash. This was the hit that knocked King away when he was previously continuously attacking Zoro.

2c. Zoro said that if he didn't end the fight soon, Enma's full power would kill him, and it doesn't make sense that using Enma's full power 2 short times at the point would make Zoro feel like Enma was draining enough of his energy to kill him. It seems far more likely that he'd been using Enma during that entire clash with Zoan King, which is why it was draining Zoro's energy to a dangerous degree.

He literally said that before-hand in 1035 showing that using Enma for a short period of time unrestrained undeniably drains him at a rate that will eventually kill him (We even see direct proof of this when Enma drains his energy against his will & Zoro's arms end up as noodles)

3. In relation to the above, Zoro didn't think his Unleashed Enma could damage King with the flames on, which should be added as a durability feat to base Flame-On King.

Sure.

4. Flame-Off King took 2 Hao Infused attacks from Zoro and, asides from bleeding, was able to quickly recover from the first one (even though the first one also had Enma amping it, as clearly shown on Zoro's blades after the slash), and was able to continue fighting after the second one (though it did seem to definitely hurt him more, as he was bleeding from the mouth). This should be noted on his profile.

Before I go into anything else, I think it's worth noting here that after these two strikes he was defeated by the third strike. Effectively being three-shot.

IIRC we do not scale a character's durability for surviving/enduring attacks that clearly draw massive amounts of blood as shown with King and those hao attacks, it would be an addition to his stamina section for his endurance not durability.

5. Speaking of Zoro's Haoshoku Infusion, although Buso King was being pushed back by Zoro's Hao Infusion (as currently noted on Zoro's profile for his Hao Infusion justification), he was still shown as capable of holding his own and blocking Zoro's Haoshoku Infused blades. We also know it's Hao Infusion since Zoro says Flame-On King was scared of his attacks, even though Zoro's normal Buso was unable of harming Flame-On King.

We literally see the close up of the panel, there's no haoshoku lightning present at all. That's not haoshoku infusion that just buso. Zoro saying that is in reference to that attacks he landed on King which were haoshoku infusion, King blocking is only proof of him being cautious of those attacks not the attacks he's capable of blocking with his sword.

 

[Eseseso]

This is fine, but besides a strike from Zeus what hits from the Yonko did Zoro take besides the Hakai & Thunder Bagua?

Off-screen between 1003 and 1008, since he was clearly more bruised in 1008 than in 1003.

 

[Eminiteable]

Off-screen between 1003 and 1008, since he was clearly more bruised in 1008 than in 1003.

Zoro could have bled from his mouth from those hits as well. And according to the durability page scaling via Haemoptysis isn't a safe method:

Haemoptysis is the act of coughing up blood. This is caused from the force of blunt attacks damaging blood vessels, causing blood and fluids to build up in your lungs. This created the popular notion that characters are getting their durability bypassed. This a flawed way of scaling, as organs and blood vessels are weaker than the actual body.

Causing Haemoptysis to a person by blunt force isn't the safest method of scaling. A way of scaling is from a boxer causing Haemoptysis to a victim who didn't gain it from another boxer's attack, the first boxer would scale above the second.

 

[Eseseso]

Zoro could have bled from his mouth from those hits as well.

Doesn't look like it to me.

And according to the durability page scaling via Haemoptysis isn't a safe method:

I really don't think that applies in this case, as this was the result of Zoro getting clearly overpowered by Hybrid King, and the force of King's attack making him cough blood.

Regardless, it's more of a support feat than anything.

 

[Eminiteable]

Doesn't look like it to me.

We see in the last two that dried blood is near Zoro's mouth, and I believe this is from 1009 which is after these off-screen Kaidou & BM hits take place.

I really don't think that applies in this case, as this was the result of Zoro getting clearly overpowered by Hybrid King, and the force of King's attack making him cough blood.

Regardless, it's more of a support feat than anything.

I get that it's support for King's AP over Zoro's durability, just not sure I agree with the logic since it's implying King's hit was more powerful than that of Mom or Kaidou based off off-screen hits.

 

[Eseseso]

We see in the last two that dried blood is near Zoro's mouth, and I believe this is from 1009 which is after these off-screen Kaidou & BM hits take place.

Those kinda look like bruises to me.

I get that it's support for King's AP over Zoro's durability, just not sure I agree with the logic since it's implying King's hit was more powerful than that of Mom or Kaidou based off off-screen hits.

Not stronger, just comparable.

King matched Marco who matched BM, yet we know BM is stronger than King.

 

[Eminiteable]

Those kinda look like bruises to me

Blood around the mouth is definitely dried blood, same for the blood dripping down his face which was probably caused from a strike to the head.

Not stronger, just comparable.

King matched Marco who matched BM, yet we know BM is stronger than King.

I think my main issue is the scaling to Hybrid Kaidou considering it's stated Kings weaker so it doesn't make much sense for them to be comparable in hybrid.

 

[Eseseso]

I think my main issue is the scaling to Hybrid Kaidou considering it's stated Kings weaker so it doesn't make much sense for them to be comparable in hybrid.

I mean, as I stated, Base King = Base Marco, who matched Big Mom, yet we know King < Big Mom.

No one is suggesting that Hybrid King is equal to Hybrid Kaido, just that King can at least draw blood from someone who took blows from the Yonko.

And Zoro seemed more roughed up by the Yonko's off-screen hits than by King's hybrid attack.

 

[Eminiteable]

I mean, as I stated, Base King = Base Marco, who matched Big Mom, yet we know King < Big Mom.

Wasn't he in hybrid when he matched her tho?

No one is suggesting that Hybrid King is equal to Hybrid Kaido, just that King can at least draw blood from someone who took blows from the Yonko.

And Zoro seemed more roughed up by the Yonko's off-screen hits than by King's hybrid attack.

If the proposed justification is something like "made Zoro spit up blood from his attack" or something similar that doesn't make the comparison to the Yonko then personally it's fine.

The less comparison the better imo purely due to the riskyness of scaling Haemoptysis & the unknown nature of the hits Zoro took off-screen.

 

[Eseseso]

Wasn't he in hybrid when he matched her tho?

You're right, but my point stands.

If the proposed justification is something like "made Zoro spit up blood from his attack" or something similar that doesn't make the comparison to the Yonko then personally it's fine.

The less comparison the better imo purely due to the riskyness of scaling Haemoptysis & the unknown nature of the hits Zoro took off-screen.

I mean, his AP writeup already mentions his Hybrid overpowering Zoro's Tiger Hunt, so we can just add "and made Zoro cough up blood from the impact".

It's like how Apoo's DF is High 6-A.

 

[Eminiteable]

You're right, but my point stands.

I mean, his AP writeup already mentions his Hybrid overpowering Zoro's Tiger Hunt, so we can just add "and made Zoro cough up blood from the impact".

It's like how Apoo's DF is High 6-A.

That works.

 

[Eseseso]

That works.

Great.

As for the other 3 justifications, I want to see what others like King and Mitch have to say before I respond.

 

[Eminiteable]

As for the other 3 justifications, I want to see what others like King and Mitch have to say before I respond.

Can't speak for either of them at all, although I do remember Tempest disagreeing with scaling King's durability to Zoro's hao attacks about a year ago and to my knowledge I don't believe his opinion has changed on that.

 

[Eseseso]

Can't speak for either of them at all, although I do remember Tempest disagreeing with scaling King's durability to Zoro's hao attacks about a year ago and to my knowledge I don't believe his opinion has changed on that.

Don't remember that, so I'll wait to see what he thinks.

 

[Eminiteable]

Don't remember that, so I'll wait to see what he thinks.

It was discussed off-site, if he's changed his opinion on it then fair enough just felt it was relevant since you're waiting for their input.

 

[Eseseso]

On a personal note, I would like Flame-Off King to have something for his durability since otherwise we don't know squat about his Flame-Off durability.

 

[Eseseso]

I'll just do the draft justifications for what has been accepted:

Hybrid King's AP (added part is bolded): Overpowered Zoro's Ul-Tora Gari with a single Imperial Archer, with the impact of his attack making Zoro cough up blood

Base King's durability: Zoro did not think that his fully Unleashed Enma attacks could hurt King while the latter had his flames on.

Also, I'd just like to note that Haoshoku Infusion Zoro > Enma Zoro, since the former made Flame-On King scared while Zoro didn't even think the latter could hurt Flame-On King. Not proposing anything, just an interesting comparison, though if anything that's impressive for Zoro's Haoshoku Infusion since Enma Unleashed Zoro = Oden w/ Buso, so Haoshoku Infusion Zoro scaling above that speaks volumes of its power.

 

[Eminiteable]

On a personal note, I would like Flame-Off King to have something for his durability since otherwise we don't know squat about his Flame-Off durability.

It's scaled via newton's third law, he has no real durability feats with flame-off besides a few questionable ratings:

1. A portion of the impact from Zoro's tigerhunt damaged King's mask and bruised him
2. You could maybe argue Aramaki failed to truly pierce through King's skin due to a lack of visible blood from the actual wound & lack of him being shown to have his nutrients absorbed.

Also, I'd just like to note that Haoshoku Infusion Zoro > Enma Zoro, since the former made Flame-On King scared while Zoro didn't even think the latter could hurt Flame-On King. Not proposing anything, just an interesting comparison, though if anything that's impressive for Zoro's Haoshoku Infusion since Enma Unleashed Zoro = Oden w/ Buso, so Haoshoku Infusion Zoro scaling above that speaks volumes of its power.

Probably, issue is the only pure Haoshoku feat Zoro has is a one-sword technique and not a very strong one at that, probably would be far stronger if he used a santoryu technique but he has no feats yet to add to the profile.

 

[Eminiteable]

I'll just do the draft justifications for what has been accepted:

Hybrid King's AP (added part is bolded): Overpowered Zoro's Ul-Tora Gari with a single Imperial Archer, with the impact of his attack making Zoro cough up blood

Base King's durability: Zoro did not think that his fully Unleashed Enma attacks could hurt King while the latter had his flames on.

Looks good.

 

[Eseseso]

It's scaled via newton's third law, he has no real durability feats with flame-off besides a few questionable ratings:

Newton's third law has never really applied to OP, especially with so many people having AP ratings either way above or below their durability, but I guess you have a point.

We could say: His flame-off durability should be comparable to his Attack Potency.

IMO his durability should downscale from those 2 Haoshoku hits (especially since the first one also had Enma). Now, we know his durability definitely isn't on a level where he can consistently take Hao Infused hits with flames-off (especially since I just explained why it scales above Enma Unleashed Zoro who is = to Oden w/ Buso), but he should downscale with his Flame-Off durability from taking 2 hits.

Probably, issue is the only pure Haoshoku feat Zoro has is a one-sword technique and not a very strong one at that, probably would be far stronger if he used a santoryu technique but he has no feats yet to add to the profile.

Don't really think that's an issue, especially since he already learned how to combine it with Enma for named attacks.

 

[Eminiteable]

Newton's third law has never really applied to OP, especially with so many people having AP ratings either way above or below their durability, but I guess you have a point.

We could say: His flame-off durability should be comparable to his Attack Potency.

IMO his durability should downscale from those 2 Haoshoku hits (especially since the first one also had Enma). Now, we know his durability definitely isn't on a level where he can consistently take Hao Infused hits with flames-off (especially since I just explained why it scales above Enma Unleashed Zoro who is = to Oden w/ Buso), but he should downscale with his Flame-Off durability from taking 2 hits.

Besides exceptions where it wouldn't apply there's no character with AP ratings above their durability ratings & AP ratings below their durability doesn't apply to the law.

That's literally just how Newton's Third Law would apply to his durability.

He was defeated in three hits, when he was at full stamina. It's a feat for his endurance that he was able to recover so soon after such lethal hits, a character's durability doesn't scale when they're cut up like that and lose that much blood.

Don't really think that's an issue, especially since he already learned how to combine it with Enma for named attacks.

There's a lack of feats that put him above Enma's AP feats that's my point & that's mainly due to only seeing a regular haoshoku attack at it's weakest.

 

[Eseseso]

Besides exceptions where it wouldn't apply there's no character with AP ratings above their durability ratings & AP ratings below their durability doesn't apply to the law.

That's literally just how Newton's Third Law would apply to his durability.

I'll take your word for it.

He was defeated in three hits, when he was at full stamina. It's a feat for his endurance that he was able to recover so soon after such lethal hits, a character's durability doesn't scale when they're cut up like that and lose that much blood.

Hence the downscaling.

There's a lack of feats that put him above Enma's AP feats that's my point & that's mainly due to only seeing a regular haoshoku attack at it's weakest.

That makes it more impressive.

Zoro's weakest 1-sword Hao attack made King scared that his flames wouldn't protect him enough, while both Zoro and King didn't think Enma's full power could damage flame-on King.

 

[Eminiteable]

Hence the downscaling.

He survived purely due to his endurance (This type of scaling is mentioned on the durability page), not because his durability was at all comparable. Down scaling doesn't apply here at all.

This is equivalent scaling to scaling characters to Akainu because they were able to survive hole punches from his magma.

 

[Eseseso]

He survived purely due to his endurance (This type of scaling is mentioned on the durability page), not because his durability was at all comparable. Down scaling doesn't apply here at all.

This is equivalent scaling to scaling characters to Akainu because they were able to survive hole punches from his magma.

You do kind of have a point, but he still "only" had a gash to show for it.

It wasn't like Kiku getting an arm cut off by a Kaifu.

I'll wait to see what others think about this.

 

[Eseseso]

Also @Eminiteable , Haoshoku Zoro currently has on his profile that his Haoshoku pushed back Buso King, which is part of why I said in the OP that Buso King was =< Zoro (since they were still clashing), so if that ends up being disagreed upon then it should be removed.

 

[Eminiteable]

Also @Eminiteable , Haoshoku Zoro currently has on his profile that his Haoshoku pushed back Buso King, which is part of why I said in the OP that Buso King was =< Zoro (since they were still clashing), so if that ends up being disagreed upon then it should be removed.

He pushed back King when he separated him from stealing his swords.

You do kind of have a point, but he still "only" had a gash to show for it.

It wasn't like Kiku getting an arm cut off by a Kaifu.

I'll wait to see what others think about this.

You don't need to lose an arm to not scale to wound that clearly badly damaged you.

Maybe I'm misremembering but I'm pretty sure this same logic has been explained to you before regarding the scabbard's scaling.

 

[Eseseso]

.

I was thinking of 2 more things regarding King.

1. We currently say that Base Zoro is weaker than King just because King used one hand, but I don't think King could've been that much weaker using one hand for his attack than with 2, especially considering he only uses that one sword, and especially considering his base managed to defeat Marco off-screen. I don't think the gap between base Zoro and Base King was that big to warrant such downscaling of Zoro.

2. IMO King's Zoan form should be listed after his imperial flames and Buso Haki, mainly because Chapter 1035 Buso Zoro was >= Imperial Flames + Buso King, yet was being overwhelmed by Zoan King until, as you said, he used Enma to push King back. We should also add something along those lines to Zoan King's AP, IMO, such as:

Was pressuring Zoro using Busoshoku Haki, even after the latter had grown enough in strength to push back a King using Busoshoku Haki + Imperial Flames.

Either way, it should be listed after his Buso Haki + Imperial Flames since it is stronger.

 

[Eminiteable]

1. We currently say that Base Zoro is weaker than King just because King used one hand, but I don't think King could've been that much weaker using one hand for his attack than with 2, especially considering he only uses that one sword, and especially considering his base managed to defeat Marco off-screen. I don't think the gap between base Zoro and Base King was that big to warrant such downscaling of Zoro.

Base Zoro matched a one-hand strike from King, two-hand King was matching Buso Zoro. Buso Zoro is shown to have a one-shot level amp over his base pretty consistently.

Also he used two hands on his sword when fighting Marco.

2. IMO King's Zoan form should be listed after his imperial flames and Buso Haki, mainly because Chapter 1035 Buso Zoro was >= Imperial Flames + Buso King, yet was being overwhelmed by Zoan King until, as you said, he used Enma to push King back. We should also add something along those lines to Zoan King's AP, IMO, such as:

Zoro overpowered Zoan King & knocked him away in 1031, so nah that doesn't work.

Buso Zoro was also able to now deflect Hybrid King's named attacks with one sword where he previously failed.

Yet Buso King completely overpowered this Buso Zoro in 1032.

Was pressuring Zoro using Busoshoku Haki, even after the latter had grown enough in strength to push back a King using Busoshoku Haki + Imperial Flames.

No, King was just overwhelming Zoro with sheer amount of attacks, it wasn't due to King being stronger just overwhelming with numbers as he did a panel prior with his flame bullets.

Either way, it should be listed after his Buso Haki + Imperial Flames since it is stronger.

No.

 

[Eminiteable]

I'm not sure when this line was added but it should probably be changed to "Stronger than before" for Roronoa Zoro's Post-Mink Key:

Should be as strong, if not stronger than his previous Busoshoku Haki.

Zoro in this key blatantly grew stronger than he was at the start of the key thus the first part of this justification is just blatantly wrong.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm not sure when this line was added but it should probably be changed to "Stronger than before" for Roronoa Zoro's Post-Mink Key:

Zoro in this key blatantly grew stronger than he was at the start of the key thus the first part of this justification is just blatantly wrong.

Uh, sure.

 

[Eseseso]

Base Zoro matched a one-hand strike from King, two-hand King was matching Buso Zoro. Buso Zoro is shown to have a one-shot level amp over his base pretty consistently.

Also he used two hands on his sword when fighting Marco.

Ok.

Zoro overpowered Zoan King & knocked him away in 1031, so nah that doesn't work.

Buso Zoro was also able to now deflect Hybrid King's named attacks with one sword where he previously failed.

Yet Buso King completely overpowered this Buso Zoro in 1032.

No, King was just overwhelming Zoro with sheer amount of attacks, it wasn't due to King being stronger just overwhelming with numbers as he did a panel prior with his flame bullets.

No.

Ok, though for Zoan King's speed, it should probably be mentioned in his profile that he pressured Zoro with his attacks, since it shows that he's above Base King who Zoro consistently reacted to. Also, after his Hybrid sent Zoro flying, Zoro was unable to react in time to his 2nd attack that almost knocked him off Onigashima.

 

[Sus]

when zoro made this statement he was using king of hell 3 sword style, not just enma

 

[Eseseso]

when zoro made this statement he was using king of hell 3 sword style, not just enma

But I don't see any Hao Infusion on his blades, and in the previous panel he was only shown using Enma.

 

[Eminiteable]

But I don't see any Hao Infusion on his blades, and in the previous panel he was only shown using Enma.

When he charged up the onigiri a page prior there was lightning coming off the blades.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Following.

 

[Eseseso]

When he charged up the onigiri a page prior there was lightning coming off the blades.

Just checked, you guys are actually right.

 

[Sus]

thats still a feat for king nonetheless

 

[Eseseso]

Makes me think that King was getting afraid of Zoro's attacks mostly because the 2nd strike damaged him a lot more than the first, meaning that he lost a lot of stamina when he got hit the 2nd time and was starting to run on fumes.

 

[Sus]

Makes me think that King was getting afraid of Zoro's attacks mostly because the 2nd strike damaged him a lot more than the first, meaning that he lost a lot of stamina when he got hit the 2nd time and was starting to run on fumes.

the statement was made after zoro discovered his secret, king was afraid to take off his flames, not to get hit