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Actually right now, only Kirin and mitsuki's lightning are considered lightning speed and that is because Kirin is real lightning and mitsuki's displayed all the properties.ShadowWhoWalks said:
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Kimetsu no Yaiba Speed
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That's false, raiton is considered lightning speed as long as it shows the properties.
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well yeah as long as it shows properties, but we dont do it automatically is my point. Right now, we only use it for stuff likt Kirin and mitsuki's snkae lightning.
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I already mentioned five characteristics. "lighting esquire looks" is a very poor attempt at downplaying. Please try to address the argument more fairly. If you consider heat evidence, then that is a sixth characteristics.
Complaining that Kaigaku's lightning didn't display all five characteristics at the same time, is like arguing that a Raiton Jutsu can't be used for a calc because it didn't display multiple characteristics, and that we need to prove that every single Raiton Jutsu used for a calc is real lightning first.
Also, can you point out the MHS statements in Naruto? The only explicit statement I am aware of is the "near the speed of light" in the databook, but that was rejected as a hyperbole.
"0.008 ton" instead of "0.08" ton was a typo, right?
Objection to the number of slashes was brought up by staff, and my answer was adequate in the calc's comments.
Complaining that Kaigaku's lightning didn't display all five characteristics at the same time, is like arguing that a Raiton Jutsu can't be used for a calc because it didn't display multiple characteristics, and that we need to prove that every single Raiton Jutsu used for a calc is real lightning first.
Also, can you point out the MHS statements in Naruto? The only explicit statement I am aware of is the "near the speed of light" in the databook, but that was rejected as a hyperbole.
"0.008 ton" instead of "0.08" ton was a typo, right?
Objection to the number of slashes was brought up by staff, and my answer was adequate in the calc's comments.
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But the lightning in Kimetsu never showed any real lightning property, we dont know its voltage either. It also doesnt burn people at all.
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Dont forget kakuzuRocker1189 said:
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Can you stop bringing in Naruto and just focus on thr KnY proof, feats and arguments? Naruto also has MHS+ even with no lightning featsShadowWhoWalks said:
Also funny thing, that is exactly what we have to do for Naruto's Raiton.
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Forgot to add heat for Kaigaku my b and no that isn't a sixth characteristic Kaigaku has displayed 3 traits, the look, heat and conductivity.
Gai stated Kakashi cut a lightning bolt when he was younger.
Yes it was a typo
If the fish primarily have uniform cuts then it makes more sense that Muichiro used fewer slashes so there's less variability
Gai stated Kakashi cut a lightning bolt when he was younger.
Yes it was a typo
If the fish primarily have uniform cuts then it makes more sense that Muichiro used fewer slashes so there's less variability
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Demonstrably false statement.GreatestSin said:
The dispute due to our different understanding on how lightning feats are handled in the wiki. Precedent is very relevant.Rocker1189 said:
Under the new revisions, the only accepted non-lightning MHS+ calc is from the moon cutting feat, which only scales to a handful from the very top tier.
According to your logic, the electrlysis scene is completely useless as a supporting evidence for Raiton Jutsu since electrolysis is never brought up again. Also, genin can dodge lightning speed attacks, based on dodging a White Zetsu clone's lightning Jutsu that hit the ground; I am not optomistic, but good luck finding enough real electricity characteristic for this unnamed Jutsu to satisfy you.
Kaigaku's lightning also created branching lightning scars, so that's four. Sekido's lightning also had four characteristics, so that makes for a total of six unique characteristics for demon lightning.Insert creative name here 12 said:
Kakashi cutting lightning can be seen as a vague feat rather than an explicit statement (was it from a Jutsu? Did Kakashi have his hand raised to block the lightning before it struck? If Kakashi has a famous reputation, how do we reconcile it with Black Zetsu not being aware of people who can dodge lightning?). The anime depicted the incident, and it had a cloud-to-ground lightning Jutsu, but Kakashi ran up a hill and had his chidori hand raised before lightning struck.
The cuts were uniform in a manner where the fish need to be below Muichiro and not too far away in order to create circular cross sections, which perhabs allows him to cut dozens of fish per slash at most. If Muichiro was cutting hundreds of fish with every slash, he would need to use a forward-facing angle, which would prevent the cuts from being uniform.
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- #131
Kaigaku didn't create burn scars he explicitly called them cracks and they bled had they been burn scars like you're saying they wouldn't bleed, Sekido hasn't displayed conductivity all it has shown is the shape and paralysis when it's flowing even though real electricity leaves you with numbness and lingering paralysis. Lastly Sekido and Kaigaku produce different lightning with different effects, Kaigaku cracks skin and explicitly says he generates heat while Sekido merely damages people and prevents them from moving with the attack flowing through them you can't just lump all their traits together and act like they share all the same traits.
Then it's a plot hole since Kakashi refers to his Jutsu as lightning cutter and Gai was even there when he performed it but fine we'll ignore that even ignoring that Raiton Jutsu have more properties than the lighting Sekido or Kaigaku produce.
We did see him jump into the air before cutting them and he could definitely eliminate hundreds at once since they're grouped up together and due to his extended range they don't need to be completely below him to get hit and not all the fish where cut in that same manner most of what we saw had their heads separated at the gills however in the next page you can see one who's head is still connected to the pectoral fins.
Then it's a plot hole since Kakashi refers to his Jutsu as lightning cutter and Gai was even there when he performed it but fine we'll ignore that even ignoring that Raiton Jutsu have more properties than the lighting Sekido or Kaigaku produce.
We did see him jump into the air before cutting them and he could definitely eliminate hundreds at once since they're grouped up together and due to his extended range they don't need to be completely below him to get hit and not all the fish where cut in that same manner most of what we saw had their heads separated at the gills however in the next page you can see one who's head is still connected to the pectoral fins.
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@shadow
if anything that showed the UM4s lightning was real (or closer to real), the black lightning of the one zenitsu foguht barely had anything going for him besides the look, conductivity was basically lipservice, it didnt shock zenitsu as it should have, and the lichtenberg pattern is just cuts from wich blood came out (making the heat-talk of that dude useless as well since it was just citting zenitsu) that looked like lightning: https://********.org/chapter/544583/8
So the black lightning as well as lightning breath are not real. However i would be inclined to accept the lightning of UM4 since it also consistently shocked the enemy and basically nobody aside from love-pillar managed to dodge it.
if anything that showed the UM4s lightning was real (or closer to real), the black lightning of the one zenitsu foguht barely had anything going for him besides the look, conductivity was basically lipservice, it didnt shock zenitsu as it should have, and the lichtenberg pattern is just cuts from wich blood came out (making the heat-talk of that dude useless as well since it was just citting zenitsu) that looked like lightning: https://********.org/chapter/544583/8
So the black lightning as well as lightning breath are not real. However i would be inclined to accept the lightning of UM4 since it also consistently shocked the enemy and basically nobody aside from love-pillar managed to dodge it.
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- #133
Sekido's lightning still lacks sufficient properties it's only displayed paralysis when flowing through people and a lightning shape. It didn't burn, numb or scar anybody it hit.
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^yeah it didnt, but its the very best this series even showed them even the "insulation" isnt really true since it was made clear that the reason it worked was because the cut-off parts of the demons own cells are immune to his own power, so they could be used as a protection (which is bs since the cut-off parts of a demon would and should vanish quite quickly).
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Yeah it is relevant if it is a similar situation, it is really not because we only use it for jutsu either with statements or that have folled multiple lightning speed criteria, not just a couple.ShadowWhoWalks said:
I dont think you understand me at all. I am saying that we are literally forced to prove any unnamed lightning jutsu as true lightning speed, you are saying good luck, that is literally what we are already forced to do.
You would notice that one, it was Konohamaru a Jonin and 2 it is literally not on his page, in other words we are not using it for anything.
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- #136
If there are no objections left let's implement the changes since most people seem to agree
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I really don't care about this, however I agree more with Shadow here myself. I am not in the mood nor do I have the time to be dealing with us arguing over whether something is true lightning or not by nitpicking the smallest detail to say whether it is or isn't lightning. I have finals to deal with so do not message me over this again.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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Hmm, while all three demons do demonstrate some properties of lightning with their attacks, the first one could just be demonstrating electricity which has different speeds especially since it only ever fits 1,2, and 3. The second one suffers because its straight up just a breathing art, which we have no direct confirmation becomes real when a demon is using it. This means that quite a bit of what we're seeing could just be what we're normally seeing when a demon slayer uses one of their forms. Not only that, but all of these attacks require that Kaigaku strike Zenitsu so its just that more dubious in the regards of whether of its lightning or not. The third demon, I haven't seen enough to judge.
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- #139
@duedate so you don't agree with MHS speed for the characters?
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Not if these lightning feats are all of what we're relying on, the only one that I'm just unsure of is the third, and that's because I haven't got a good luck at them yet.
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- #141
What's the third one you're referring to? Also there's a calc for one of the characters but it makes pretty big assumption that produces MHS speed
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The lightning spitting snake is the third one I'm talking about, and that calc for the fish cutting doesn't look bad. The only real issue that pops up is the number of slashes, however it looks like a calc memember already looked at them and decided that they were okay and since I'm no good at calcs myself I trust them more then I trust me in that regard. My only real issue is with the lightning.
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- #143
Lightning spitting snake? The calc assumes a large number of slashes without proper backing though otherwise it's fine
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This thing was what I was talking about.
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- #145
Ah ok you mean Zou Hakuten his lightning is virtually the same as Sekido's just stronger by an unknown amount
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- #146
Bump
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- #147
Ok could everyone state their stance on the speed of KNY whether you believe it should stay MHS based on the points stated or not
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I think that if MHS is still in contention, then you might as well list it as possibly MHS, since the calc is accepted but only under dubious circumstances.
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- #149
So the profiles would be like what supersonic+ possibly MHS?
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I think the calc for the cutting fish thing can not be used due to the massive assumptions, as for the lightning I dont know enough to have an opinion.
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- #151
@M3X if you still have disagreements with my points let's debate this now
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- #153
How was everything I've said debunked?
Kaigaku and Sekido lack sufficient proof. Kaigaku has conductivity, unknown amounts of heat and lighting shaped attacks, Sekido halts movement while his attack flows through and has lightning shape. None of this is enough proof by this logic any electric attack could be considered lightning speed
Your calc lacks proof as well the swamp demon can be perceived by normal humans so no he isn't fte and Tanjirou had trouble dodging the drum demon.
Kaigaku and Sekido lack sufficient proof. Kaigaku has conductivity, unknown amounts of heat and lighting shaped attacks, Sekido halts movement while his attack flows through and has lightning shape. None of this is enough proof by this logic any electric attack could be considered lightning speed
Your calc lacks proof as well the swamp demon can be perceived by normal humans so no he isn't fte and Tanjirou had trouble dodging the drum demon.
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- #155
Fine I'll leave your calc alone, now anything to say about the lightning?
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- #157
Shadow lumped both their traits together for his argument that shouldn't be done, Kaigaku doesn't scar people if they were burn scars they wouldn't bleed I've already stated this.
In fact if Kaigaku actually has six true characteristics state them so I can address them all again. Nons of these characters are 8C since Zou Hakuten was calced to be 9A+ at most and none of these guys are above him.
I'll ask you a question. If in a fictional work dodging a punch from a certain character is a top tier feat can we randomly assume said character is MHS or higher without backing?
In fact if Kaigaku actually has six true characteristics state them so I can address them all again. Nons of these characters are 8C since Zou Hakuten was calced to be 9A+ at most and none of these guys are above him.
I'll ask you a question. If in a fictional work dodging a punch from a certain character is a top tier feat can we randomly assume said character is MHS or higher without backing?
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I personally think ShadowWhoTalks is making more sense here.
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- #159
How? The characters lack sufficient properties to be considered as fast lightning do we assume any character who displays electrical manipulation is MHS?
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