Kenjaku's a Li'l Funny, No? (Jujutsu Kaisen)

[Sir_Marvulous]

Eh?

Satoru and Kenjaku are rarely engaged in close-quarters, hand-to-hand combat. Although Kenjaku could easily dominate Choso, and in 2017, and Suguru briefly overpowered a Yuta/Fully Manifested Rika (albeit before he properly reinforced), Satoru fighting equally with 19F+1H Sukuna brings the validity into question, though.

Kenjaku having comparable h2h skill isn't outlandish. Plus Sukuna's only proper h2h showing is against Gojo, and he proved inferior. I don't think Sukuna makes this a problem cuz there's already a massive power gap even with 15F Sukuna

Perhaps Kenjaku is genuinely in the top five in terms of physical strength (ignoring the "physically gifted"); he seldom demonstrates said strength.

Grip strength is where I'm concerned because it's less reasonable than the h2h statement

 

[Arkenis]

In fact, the images accompanying the question reference Satoru's fight with Mahito's Group in Shibuya.

But it says without curse energy, why is this being used?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i might have to look over the original japanese text

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Kenjaku having comparable h2h skill isn't outlandish. Plus Sukuna's only proper h2h showing is against Gojo, and he proved inferior. I don't think Sukuna makes this a problem cuz there's already a massive power gap even with 15F Sukuna

Grip strength is where I'm concerned because it's less reasonable than the h2h statement

Why TF you are bringing Sukuna vs Gojo here? I don't even wanna talk about how many things you said here wrong. Anyway stay on the topic instead of bringing unnecessary arguments. H2H bullshit isn't getting anyone any AP ratings.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Why TF you are bringing Sukuna vs Gojo here? I don't even wanna talk about how many things you said here wrong. Anyway stay on the topic instead of bringing unnecessary arguments. H2H bullshit isn't getting anyone any AP ratings.

Cuz he brought up Sukuna in relation to the statement that Kenjaku has h2h skill comparable to Gojo. Did you even read what I was replying to?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But it says without curse energy, why is this being used?

Taijutsu and Cursed Energy Reinforcement are different concepts—the former employs the usage of Cursed Energy in order to successfully exorcise Cursed Spirits, largely relying on its user's natural abilities, whereas the latter reinforces the user, like in defense or offense.



You can typically see Cursed Energy Reinforcement, the concentration of energy for the purpose of bolstering their defensive abilities to the point of taking entire energy blasts head-on or their offensive abilities for the purpose of completely overwhelming their opponent.

Why do you think they constantly emphasize Yuji's physical prowess, rather than his "20% above a normal sorcerer" Cursed Energy output, even when he uses Cursed Energy Reinforcement? Even though they are imbued with Cursed Energy, outside of reinforcement, which has its telltales, their physical abilities are still the driving factor; not every instance of a punch is an instance of Cursed Energy Reinforcement—the latter is nearly always referred to as a conscious and active ability.



And, again, the "Tell us, Akutami-sensei!!" Q&A clearly references Satoru overpowering Jogo and Hanami and Kenjaku blocking Kiwa's katana strike in talks of their physical ability without Cursed Energy. Like, Jogo was afraid of Satoru's physical attacks.

 

[Arkenis]

Taijutsu and Cursed Energy Reinforcement are different concepts—the former employs the usage of Cursed Energy in order to successfully exorcise Cursed Spirits, largely relying on its user's natural abilities, whereas the latter reinforces the user, like in defense or offense.

I don't see why this matters, we're talking about their strength without curse energy thus we can't scale this to their feats with curse energy.

You can typically see Cursed Energy Reinforcement, the concentration of energy for the purpose of bolstering their defensive abilities to the point of taking entire energy blasts head-on or their offensive abilities for the purpose of completely overwhelming their opponent.

Why do you think they constantly emphasize Yuji's physical prowess, rather than his "20% above a normal sorcerer" Cursed Energy output, even when he uses Cursed Energy Reinforcement? Even though they are imbued with Cursed Energy, outside of reinforcement, which has its telltales, their physical abilities are still the driving factor; not every instance of a punch is an instance of Cursed Energy Reinforcement—the latter is nearly always referred to as a conscious and active ability.

I don't get your point with Yuji here, why does his physical strength matter? His power still comes from his curse energy, the power he needs to do any damage to sorcerers or curses.

And, again, the "Tell us, Akutami-sensei!!" Q&A clearly references Satoru overpowering Jogo and Hanami and Kenjaku blocking Kiwa's katana strike in talks of their physical ability without Cursed Energy. Like, Jogo was afraid of Satoru's physical attacks.

Yeah the picture is about them without curse energy, the main thing that shows us their strength. And your Jogo example ignores the fact that curse energy is needed to harm curses, he's not afraid by his raw physical strength, its the fact he's only using curse energy manipulation and physical attacks to fight him.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

that curse energy is needed to harm curses

That's why Cursed Energy Manipulation is in play; the Cursed Spirits are invulnerable otherwise. But he is physically superior to them.

he's not afraid by his raw physical strength, its the fact he's only using curse energy manipulation and physical attacks to fight him.

He's not afraid of his raw physical strength, he's just afraid of his raw physical strength.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Cuz he brought up Sukuna in relation to the statement that Kenjaku has h2h skill comparable to Gojo. Did you even read what I was replying to?

I did read his arguments and Arkenis already pointed out why H2H skills without CE is irrelevant in scaling AP. You literally started talking about Gojo vs Sukuna H2H skills instead of stopping it right there. You know that would be just derailing.

Why do you think they constantly emphasize Yuji's physical prowess, rather than his "20% above a normal sorcerer" Cursed Energy output, even when he uses Cursed Energy Reinforcement? Even though they are imbued with Cursed Energy, outside of reinforcement, which has its telltales, their physical abilities are still the driving factor; not every instance of a punch is an instance of Cursed Energy Reinforcement—the latter is nearly always referred to as a conscious and active ability.

Yuji is special case but I get what you mean. But we don't have any way to measure how much Gojo and Kenny AP scales to without CE.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I did read his arguments and Arkenis already pointed out why H2H skills without CE is irrelevant in scaling AP. You literally started talking about Gojo vs Sukuna H2H skills instead of stopping it right there. You know that would be just derailing.

In the same message I steered it back to the strength argument immediately. You got all uppity for no reason

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

As for the strength argument, if Gojo was in fact not using CE reinforcement then maybe Kenjaku could scale. But I'm pretty sure he was in fact using it

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But I'm pretty sure he was in fact using it

Again, the auras.


I believe the only time he has ever been shown utilizing Cursed Energy Reinforcement—whether that be boosting his striking strength with Cursed Energy, applying Blue to his fists upon contact, Domain Amplification, or Falling Blossom Emotion—was against Sukuna.

In fact, not once did Satoru strike any of Mahito's group. He restrained Jogo and snapped his arm and pulled out Hanami's roots.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Again, the auras.


I believe the only time he has ever been shown utilizing Cursed Energy Reinforcement—whether that be boosting his striking strength with Cursed Energy, applying Blue to his fists upon contact, Domain Amplification, or Falling Blossom Emotion—was against Sukuna.

In fact, not once did Satoru strike any of Mahito's group. He restrained Jogo and snapped his arm and pulled out Hanami's roots.

Gojo doesn't have DA. Also DA only cancels CT not CE.
Btw how this is useful for Kenjaku scaling?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Gojo doesn't have DA. Also DA only cancels CT not CE.

Mixed it up with Simple Domain, which, admittedly, doesn't really reinforce the user.

And, Sukuna used Domain Amplification to minimize the damage of a point-blank Red.

Btw how this is useful for Kenjaku scaling?

To make sure no information is lost in transit: Satoru Gojo physically overpowered Jogo and Hanami, and Kenjaku is considered a physical rival.

 

[Catpija]

If he didn't use any cursed energy at all, how did he harm them curses in the first place? Jogo even said that he used cursed energy manipulation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Mixed it up with Simple Domain, which, admittedly, doesn't really reinforce the user.

Characters can use SD and CE Reinforcement together on their bodies. Kusakabe does that thing all the time. We even got direct statement from Sukuna. I don't see why Gojo wasn't using SD & Reinforcements together

And, Sukuna used Domain Amplification to minimize the damage of a point-blank Red.

What Sukuna using DA to minimize damage from Red gonna help here? We are talking about Base AP without any techniques. Also Red works more like Black hole(Not literal but I hope you understand what I meant). Damage done by it would be more than how everyone interpretes as twice the output than normal.

To make sure no information is lost in transit: Satoru Gojo physically overpowered Jogo and Hanami, and Kenjaku is considered a physical rival.

He wasn't physically overpowering Jogo and Hanami without CE Reinforcements. Even during his fight with Toji he used CE Reinforcements. If his Teen self can use that I don't see the point of adult Gojo using it. It doens't make sense for Gojo fighting special grade Cursed spirits without CE. Also you should know if he doesn't use CE Reinforcements he can't damage curses. Just like how maki couldn't damage Naoya.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Domain Amplification dampens or outright nullifies techniques. It's not a Cursed Energy aura if that's what you're thinking Null

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Sukuna complements Kusakabe's CE Reinforcements here despite him reducing his CT damage with SD. (He said everyone I'm refering to only Kusakabe because he is the only one with SD)
Hanami Specifically states Gojo was using CE when Fighting them
Jogo also mentioned Gojo is using CE to fight them.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also Red works more like Black hole

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Red is repulsion.

He didn't physically overpowering Jogo and Hanami without CE Reinforcements.

Prove he utilized Cursed Energy Reinforcement, then.

I have presented a bevy of evidence that supports the idea that Cursed Energy Reinforcement is visually illustrated by an aura enveloping the body part upon which a sorcerer focuses and bolsters their energy; an aura that is, coincidentally, completely and utterly absent from Satoru's fight with Mahito's group. And the fight with Jogo. And the fight with the Hidden Inventory assassins. And the fight with Miguel.

Even during his fight with Toji he used CE Reinforcements.

WHAT?​

During the fights with Toji, Satoru was only ever in close-quarters a total of four times—once, to be stabbed through the back; twice, only to quickly eject Toji using Blue; thrice, to be stabbed near-fatally; and frice, only to quickly evade via Blue teleportation. Not once is Reinforcement demonstrated.

If his Teen self can use that I don't see the point of adult Gojo using it.

2007 Satoru can use Red, and Lapse: Blue, and Hollow Purple, but Satoru only explicitly demonstrated the neutral Limitless and Unlimited Void against Mahito's group. By this logic, Satoru should have used every technique available to defeat the Special Grade Cursed Spirits that he could physically overpower with relative ease. Know why he didn't?

Take a guess.

It doens't make sense for Gojo fighting special grade Cursed spirits without CE.

It doesn't make sense for any sorcerer to fight any Cursed Spirit without a degree of Cursed Energy Manipulation; the stuff is required to properly interact with, let alone exorcise, Cursed Spirits.

But what Satoru used was basic Cursed Energy Manipulation; "基礎的な呪力".

I.e., the bare ******* minimum.

Also you should know if he doesn't use CE Reinforcements he can't damage curses.

See above.

Just like how maki couldn't damage Naoya.

Not actively using CE Reinforcement ≠ Possessing Zero Cursed Energy, I'm sorry?

Domain Amplification dampens or outright nullifies techniques.

Which is what I said?
Red is an extension of the Limitless.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Which is what I said?
Red is an extension of the Limitless.

I thought you were implying it was some kind of reinforcement

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Red is repulsion.

Repulsion does not mean it doens't work like black hole kind of thing. It literally shown how cursed energy is compressed in one point to blast it away

Prove he utilized Cursed Energy Reinforcement, then.

Sukuna complements Kusakabe's CE Reinforcements here despite him reducing his CT damage with SD. (He said everyone I'm refering to only Kusakabe because he is the only one with SD)
Hanami Specifically states Gojo was using CE when Fighting them
Jogo also mentioned Gojo is using CE to fight them.

Already sent the scans. You either didn't noticed or just ignored it.

I have presented a bevy of evidence that supports the idea that Cursed Energy Reinforcement is visually illustrated by an aura enveloping the body part upon which a sorcerer focuses and bolsters their energy; an aura that is, coincidentally, completely and utterly absent from Satoru's fight with Mahito's group. And the fight with Jogo. And the fight with the Hidden Inventory assassins. And the fight with Miguel.

See above

WHAT?​

During the fights with Toji, Satoru was only ever in close-quarters a total of four times—once, to be stabbed through the back; twice, only to quickly eject Toji using Blue; thrice, to be stabbed near-fatally; and frice, only to quickly evade via Blue teleportation. Not once is Reinforcement demonstrated.

Just so you missed this scan does not mean he didn't used CE Reinforcements after getting stabbed and cursed tools damaging Gojo has nothing do with his CE Reinforcements. If they can bypass it that means they scales above his Reinforcements.

2007 Satoru can use Red, and Lapse: Blue, and Hollow Purple, but Satoru only explicitly demonstrated the neutral Limitless and Unlimited Void against Mahito's group. By this logic, Satoru should have used every technique available to defeat the Special Grade Cursed Spirits that he could physically overpower with relative ease. Know why he didn't?

Take a guess.

This feels like another strawman argument. Either make up your mind are you arguing Gojo with CE = Kenjaku with CE or Gojo without CE = Kenjaku without CE. Don't want to drag this out with your Contradicting arguments.

It doesn't make sense for any sorcerer to fight any Cursed Spirit without a degree of Cursed Energy Manipulation; the stuff is required to properly interact with, let alone exorcise, Cursed Spirits.

Stop strawmaning my argument has nothing to do with this.
I was addressing Gojo with CE ≠ Kenjaku with CE

But what Satoru used was basic Cursed Energy Manipulation; "基礎的な呪力".

I.e., the bare ******* minimum.

What this scans proves?

Not actively using CE Reinforcement ≠ Possessing Zero Cursed Energy, I'm sorry?

Statement from databook is for no CE. So this point is irrelevant if you think Gojo has some strength in his body + CE without Reinforcements.
Again this is strawmaning.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Just so you missed this scan does not mean he didn't used CE Reinforcements after getting stabbed and cursed tools damaging Gojo has nothing do with his CE Reinforcements.

Oh, my bad, he used it once.

 

[JnSteHar002]

I've been under the impression that you don't technically need CE to harm curses. It's just much more effective along w/being the only way of exorcising/killing a curse, especially since they have a much easier time using RCE than humans.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I've been under the impression that you don't technically need CE to harm curses.

The Wiki accepts Cursed Spirits as having Invulnerability to non-Cursed Energy attacks.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

bump

 

[Nullflowerblush]

bump

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don’t understand what the argument is about? If we agree Kenjaku has Geto’s body, who could already go toe to toe in a L7-C in Yuta, then Kenjaku with more ce efficiency should be able to replicate it.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Well, that definitely isn't what the argument is about.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, that definitely isn't what the argument is about.

I’m aware, I’m asking why it exists at all if we already have a confirmed L7-C scaling.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah I don't get why Kenjaku is only MCB here

At least Multi-City Block level (Stopped Miwa's katana with one hand. Physically overpowered Choso. Kept up with a powered-up Choso and a critically injured Yuki)

This should be Small Town level like he already is

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

They had to sneak attack Kenjaku just to be safe, so he definitely scales to the feat that yields 1.72 Kilotons

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

At least Small Town level (Kenjaku possesses the body and Cursed Energy of Suguru Geto, who was a Special Grade Sorcerer and did battle with Yuta Okkotsu and Rika Orimoto during the Night Parade of a Hundred Demons. Yuta was wary of Kenjaku, and thus it was planned for Takaba to distract the latter so the former could ambush him), higher with Domain Expansion; Varies (Possesses a wide variety of Cursed Spirits) from Multi-City Block level (Even low-level Curses can overpower Choso) to at least Small Town level (Possesses Kurourushi, who can battle with Yuta and Uro. Possesses numerous Special Grade Cursed Spirits, like Ganesha) via Cursed Spirit Manipulation; At least Small Town level via Maximum: Uzumaki (Is a combination of his numerous Cursed Spirits. A miniature Uzumaki nearly killed Yuki)

Something like this

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yadda yadda, bip bip bip.
OP is a rough draft, I'm still writing right now.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Kenjaku is already Low 7-C because that's Geto's rating, the only thing that needs to change is removing the justifications scaling his AP to Yuki and her Black Hole in which case this would just be a minor revision that we only need 1 staff approval for and I'd rather get this done quickly so more free spaces for other CRTs can open up.
Trying to scale Kenjaku down to 8-A off of Choso is also nonsensical because Human Naoya is capable of harming Choso and Base Yuta casually one-shot him

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Close the thread. I'm working on it.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. Closing.