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Kengan Revision
- Thread starter NikHelton
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- 3,077
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- Thread starter
- #82
Regarding the whole issue of scaling, I would like to raise 2 topics:
1)Scaling Kengan Omega and Kengan Asura.
2)Scaling low tiers relative to mid and high tiers.
I would like to clarify right away that Kengan is a near-realistic verse, matching "Grappler Baki", where the outcome of the battle in most cases is decided not by physical indicators (except for speed), but by techniques.
I will give you an example in the form of the main character - Tokita Ohma. His strength level increases from the first round to the beginning and end of the second. However, the point here is not so much in AP, but in the accuracy of the techniques.
So Kanoh literallywipes the floor with Tokita,who was under the influence of hallucinations, but at the beginning of the second round was surprised by his strength. The thing is that Ohma hasunlocked old memories and his technique has become better.
Сharacters are literally surprised by his changes, because he began to move better and hit more efficiently.
At the beginning of the battle with Raian, Tokita uses a huge number of techniques on him, but none of this had any effect. Kure explicitly states that the fact is that Ohma has not fully mastered them and lacks accuracy.
However, after Ohma overcomes his personal conflict and understands how to use the techniques, they immediately had an effect. These are all the same blows with the same AP, they are just applied more technically, accurately and with the right timing. Raian himself noted this.
This explanation was made in order to show you that when the characters of the verse become "stronger", then more emphasis is placed on the growth of their combat skills, not AP. Thus, the growth of destructive power goes to those characters about whom the author speaks directly or those who use pure brute force in battle, for example Julius.
1)Scaling Kengan Omega and Kengan Asura:
Based on what I wrote above, I disagree that Omega and Asura cross-scaling is considered incorrect. The characters are all in the same weight category, but are trained in new techniques.
The same Rihito who was in the ranks of low tiers in Asura, and at the time of the current Omega chapters rose to the mid-high tier level did not show an increase in AP or physical strength. His battle IQ became higher, he began to strike more accurately, anticipate the actions of the enemy and defend better (which he had never done before). This is what allowed him to go from the level that loses dry to base Raian and has difficulties in the battle with Falcon, to the level where he defeats Saw Paing and Koga.
At this point, I would just like to raise the topic of cross-scaling of the character, which is one of the main links of scaling low tier - Himuro Re.
In Asura, we see how he was gradually beaten by Kaneda, who used dirty tricks and beat without sparing the opponent. He lost because Kaneda was able to read his movements, shake his confidence and eventually break his arm.
In Omega, Himuro is able to block Ryuki's attacks, fight Haruo, and give Adam Dudley a good fight.
Himuro has definitely become stronger since Asura, but this is a slight increase in strength and clearly not a thousandfold. Nothing links us to the fact that in Asura Himuro was 9-A, and in Omega it became High 8-C.
Moreover, we have a direct statement from the author of the Asura manga that Himuro (as well as Kaneda and Rihito) has a chance of winning against Okubo (High 8-C+), despite the fact that he is a stronger fighter. It all depends on the condition and strategy. Some users incorrectly interpreted it as if Okubo should be in a half-dead state so that the trio had a chance to win, but this is far-fetched. The "strategy" item clearly refers us to Kaneda, who wins all battles due to strategy, and the "condition" item refers us to Himuro, who at the time of Asura was seriously injured after the battle with Kaneda. Thus, we can fully downgrade it relative to Okubo and give the characters a High 8-C (baseline).
Also from the features of Himuro, that the characters have not remembered him at all since Asura and often joke that they do not recognize him. The thing is that in the first manga he was not revealed at all.
In Omega, the author and the characters are surprised by the power he possessed all this time and the story puts him on a par with the "legends".
The power level in Omega and Asura is in the same tier and therefore cross-scaling should be safe, given that only 2 years have passed between the stories. Attacks exceeding the power of the basic ones by 4 times are considered ultimatums, and a mode that increases stats by 3.33 times is considered a technique that is not available to ordinary mortals. Therefore, to assume a hundredfold or a thousandfold increase in the level of forces, relative to the setting of the verse, is simply far-fetched.
2)Scaling low tiers relative to mid and high tiers.
When we talk about low tiers, the first ones that come to mind are Inaba and Kaneda.
However, if we have already figured out that, according to author himself, Kaneda has a chance to snatch victory from Okubo with the right strategy, then I would like to talk in more detail about Inaba.
Inaba has been withstanding a barrage of merciless attacks from Advance Ohma for a very long time, albeit with great difficulty, which scale as 1/4 of 30,6 Tons of TNT.
At the same time, we see that Kuroki, who is one of the god tiers and scales up to at least High 8-C+, takes damage from Advance Ohma, however, a weaker version than the one that Inaba fought.
Yes, Inaba has received much more damage, but the fact that he can withstand a beating from a character who is physically stronger than the version of himself who beat god tier for a long time suggests that he can scale.
In any case, a 9-A character wouldn't be able to take a barrage of attacks from a High 8-C+ character.
The tournament itself does not imply a thousandfold difference in strength between the fighters and each fighter is able to inflict damage to each other. Only the difference in skills and experience.
In support of downgrade to the High 8-C baseline, I can use scaling from one of the strongest characters of the verse.
The muscle density of Wakatsuki is 52 times higher than the strength of the muscles of an ordinary person.
With his kicks, he scales up to 91.8 Tons of TNT.
So we can scale low tiers as 1/52 of its strength, which would give us 1.76 Tons of TNT (8-C+), which is consistent with what I said above.
1)Scaling Kengan Omega and Kengan Asura.
2)Scaling low tiers relative to mid and high tiers.
I would like to clarify right away that Kengan is a near-realistic verse, matching "Grappler Baki", where the outcome of the battle in most cases is decided not by physical indicators (except for speed), but by techniques.
I will give you an example in the form of the main character - Tokita Ohma. His strength level increases from the first round to the beginning and end of the second. However, the point here is not so much in AP, but in the accuracy of the techniques.
So Kanoh literallywipes the floor with Tokita,who was under the influence of hallucinations, but at the beginning of the second round was surprised by his strength. The thing is that Ohma hasunlocked old memories and his technique has become better.
Сharacters are literally surprised by his changes, because he began to move better and hit more efficiently.
At the beginning of the battle with Raian, Tokita uses a huge number of techniques on him, but none of this had any effect. Kure explicitly states that the fact is that Ohma has not fully mastered them and lacks accuracy.
However, after Ohma overcomes his personal conflict and understands how to use the techniques, they immediately had an effect. These are all the same blows with the same AP, they are just applied more technically, accurately and with the right timing. Raian himself noted this.
This explanation was made in order to show you that when the characters of the verse become "stronger", then more emphasis is placed on the growth of their combat skills, not AP. Thus, the growth of destructive power goes to those characters about whom the author speaks directly or those who use pure brute force in battle, for example Julius.
1)Scaling Kengan Omega and Kengan Asura:
Based on what I wrote above, I disagree that Omega and Asura cross-scaling is considered incorrect. The characters are all in the same weight category, but are trained in new techniques.
The same Rihito who was in the ranks of low tiers in Asura, and at the time of the current Omega chapters rose to the mid-high tier level did not show an increase in AP or physical strength. His battle IQ became higher, he began to strike more accurately, anticipate the actions of the enemy and defend better (which he had never done before). This is what allowed him to go from the level that loses dry to base Raian and has difficulties in the battle with Falcon, to the level where he defeats Saw Paing and Koga.
At this point, I would just like to raise the topic of cross-scaling of the character, which is one of the main links of scaling low tier - Himuro Re.
In Asura, we see how he was gradually beaten by Kaneda, who used dirty tricks and beat without sparing the opponent. He lost because Kaneda was able to read his movements, shake his confidence and eventually break his arm.
In Omega, Himuro is able to block Ryuki's attacks, fight Haruo, and give Adam Dudley a good fight.
Himuro has definitely become stronger since Asura, but this is a slight increase in strength and clearly not a thousandfold. Nothing links us to the fact that in Asura Himuro was 9-A, and in Omega it became High 8-C.
Moreover, we have a direct statement from the author of the Asura manga that Himuro (as well as Kaneda and Rihito) has a chance of winning against Okubo (High 8-C+), despite the fact that he is a stronger fighter. It all depends on the condition and strategy. Some users incorrectly interpreted it as if Okubo should be in a half-dead state so that the trio had a chance to win, but this is far-fetched. The "strategy" item clearly refers us to Kaneda, who wins all battles due to strategy, and the "condition" item refers us to Himuro, who at the time of Asura was seriously injured after the battle with Kaneda. Thus, we can fully downgrade it relative to Okubo and give the characters a High 8-C (baseline).
Also from the features of Himuro, that the characters have not remembered him at all since Asura and often joke that they do not recognize him. The thing is that in the first manga he was not revealed at all.
In Omega, the author and the characters are surprised by the power he possessed all this time and the story puts him on a par with the "legends".
The power level in Omega and Asura is in the same tier and therefore cross-scaling should be safe, given that only 2 years have passed between the stories. Attacks exceeding the power of the basic ones by 4 times are considered ultimatums, and a mode that increases stats by 3.33 times is considered a technique that is not available to ordinary mortals. Therefore, to assume a hundredfold or a thousandfold increase in the level of forces, relative to the setting of the verse, is simply far-fetched.
2)Scaling low tiers relative to mid and high tiers.
When we talk about low tiers, the first ones that come to mind are Inaba and Kaneda.
However, if we have already figured out that, according to author himself, Kaneda has a chance to snatch victory from Okubo with the right strategy, then I would like to talk in more detail about Inaba.
Inaba has been withstanding a barrage of merciless attacks from Advance Ohma for a very long time, albeit with great difficulty, which scale as 1/4 of 30,6 Tons of TNT.
At the same time, we see that Kuroki, who is one of the god tiers and scales up to at least High 8-C+, takes damage from Advance Ohma, however, a weaker version than the one that Inaba fought.
Yes, Inaba has received much more damage, but the fact that he can withstand a beating from a character who is physically stronger than the version of himself who beat god tier for a long time suggests that he can scale.
In any case, a 9-A character wouldn't be able to take a barrage of attacks from a High 8-C+ character.
The tournament itself does not imply a thousandfold difference in strength between the fighters and each fighter is able to inflict damage to each other. Only the difference in skills and experience.
In support of downgrade to the High 8-C baseline, I can use scaling from one of the strongest characters of the verse.
The muscle density of Wakatsuki is 52 times higher than the strength of the muscles of an ordinary person.
With his kicks, he scales up to 91.8 Tons of TNT.
So we can scale low tiers as 1/52 of its strength, which would give us 1.76 Tons of TNT (8-C+), which is consistent with what I said above.
- 168,510
- 77,216
Please get to the point. You seem to be autistic like me, so it is likely not easy for you to understand how to interact properly, but you keep misinterpreting our standard approach to how to behave during content revisions, and drag things out in an unnecessary manner.
Edit: Never mind. Thank you for writing an explanation post.
Edit: Never mind. Thank you for writing an explanation post.
- 3,077
- 1,685
- Thread starter
- #84
Not autism, but a different, similar problem. Although it's not really about the topic. I have already posted my answer above.
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You called someone autistic. You didn't mean it like that, but you straight up insulted him and told him he can't act properly. Just don't throw those words around like that.
- 3,077
- 1,685
- Thread starter
- #88
He said he was also autistic. It was not an attempt to offend, but to show that he understands me.
At least that's how I got it
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That is correct, yes. I was trying to show sympathy in conjunction with practical instructions.
I am mid-level autistic. That is no secret. So I do not understand why it is seen as an insult.
- 3,077
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- #90
It's just that the word "autistic" and "down" in colloquial speech is often offensive, no matter how sad it may be.
In my case it is OPD, so I understand your position
- 168,510
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I am not keeping up with all of the current social trends. Am I only allowed to refer to myself as neurodiverse rather than autistic nowadays? Autism is the official medical term for one of my mental handicaps.
I think that it is far worse that this kind of post was made towards Nik without anybody except me protesting than anything that I said above.
I think that it is far worse that this kind of post was made towards Nik without anybody except me protesting than anything that I said above.
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Because it's a meme Ant, nobody's gonna protest it
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Yeah that... literally is a meme. Just cause not everyone is unicorns ******** rainbows in peaceland doesn't make it NOT a meme
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Well, I have almost no idea what is going on with memes. I am far too overworked due to my combined online and real life responsibilities to have the time for such things. I though that it was a serious insult.
azontr
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Alright, here's my general breakdown of my opinions(and the opinions shared to me by other knowledgeable members). Keep in mind, to staff members reading, that my post will only consist of disagreements on the scaling presented in the OP, not of the stats themselves. Now, let's start.
The OP first proposes that we downscale low-tiers from the High 8-C calculation provided in the OP, due to a few reasons, being that the characters are all within the same realm physically between tiers, and that there are no large tiering differences between, say, low-tiers and god-tiers. I, and many others, disagree with this for many reasons, and I will be addressing arguments presented against my stance.
The OP then proceeds to propose that we cross-scale between Asura and Omega, which is just... wrong. The scaling between characters between the two mediums is so inconsistent that it's just not possible, and any knowledgeable member will agree with me. To confirm, this is a disapproval of the SCALING used, not the stats themselves.
The OP first proposes that we downscale low-tiers from the High 8-C calculation provided in the OP, due to a few reasons, being that the characters are all within the same realm physically between tiers, and that there are no large tiering differences between, say, low-tiers and god-tiers. I, and many others, disagree with this for many reasons, and I will be addressing arguments presented against my stance.
- To start off, one of the main points brought up is that there being a difference of thousands of times between characters, such as a difference between a 9-A and a High 8-C, is illogical, as there's no way that they logically could've made such a big difference in power simply through training. This is an, in my and several other opinions, a completely moot and irrelevant point. To expect the author to have to acknowledge such monumental gaps in power for them to be acknowledged as valid, when, there are several very valid cases of monumental differences in power, is unreasonable. For example; Gaolong is able to one-shot Kaneda with a SINGLE serious attack, as acknowledged by Kaneda himself, and Kaneda even eventually is instantly defeated. Should we downscale Kaneda from Gaolong? No! He is consistently displayed to be realms weaker, and no matter how "illogical" such a difference may seem on paper, our standards would not allow us to scale Kaneda, one of the weakest fighters physically, someone so pathetically weak and average, that Gaolong, one of the strongest fighters of the series, can casually make him bleed and bruise him heavily without even trying, to Gaolong himself. That just... makes no logical sense. Kaneda isn't even capable of HARMING Gaolong. There are other displays of this. Inaba initially overpowers and ragdolls Ohma not using Advance. But, Ohma uses Advance and instantly tears free from Inaba's hair when he couldn't previously. So, obviously, they shouldn't logically scale to the same value. And a point I see to debunk this is that Inaba "withstood" attacks from Ohma using Advance. And as such, his AP should scale relative to his dura, yes? But he didn't withstand anything. He took the hits, but he didn't withstand them. He literally lost consciousness and got one-tapped. It was even stated that Inaba couldn't even come close to Ohma. The dictionary definition of withstand is to "remain undamaged or unaffected by; resist", but Inaba didn't do that. Other instances of large differences of strength being displayed between character tiers include in the series include instances such as Kaneda being unable to even budge Ohma's arm despite actively trying to break it, Rei one-shotting Nezu, Kiozan being able to one-shot Chiba easily, etc. Kengan characters obviously rely on raw power heavily, and to say they do not is disingenuous.
- The OP considers a fighter's "condition" to be a key, determining factor in most Kengan fights. For example, Okubo Naoya, in this scan, is stated to be the strongest out of a group of characters, yet, at the same time it's stated he may not be able to defeat any one of them, based on his condition. This makes sense, yes, but let's look at what "condition" really means here. In Kengan, most of the time, if your condition is poor to the point someone is capable of defeating you when otherwise you'd be much stronger or even comparable, it's usually when you're in a state where you are critically injured to the point you literally cannot fight in top condition. To say that condition is such a big influence on fights all the time is objectively incorrect. Especially when, as I've displayed, strength is such a big factor in Kengan fights. One's condition RARELY comes into consideration in these fights, and when it does, it's when the character in question is in an extremely painful state.
The OP then proceeds to propose that we cross-scale between Asura and Omega, which is just... wrong. The scaling between characters between the two mediums is so inconsistent that it's just not possible, and any knowledgeable member will agree with me. To confirm, this is a disapproval of the SCALING used, not the stats themselves.
- A prime example of scaling massively changing between iterations lay in one character, The Superman, Lihito. In Asura, Lihito was the weakest of the weak. So weak, Ohma Tokita in his weakest iteration can one-shot him with zero effort. So weak, a casual Raian can effortlessly defeat him even without amping himself with Removal. Yet, later, in Omega, he's able to fight Mokichi and harm him, someone who can injure Raian on that level. Clearly, a high difference in strength between the character in each iteration, yes? This is once AGAIN displayed when Himuro, someone who can have his arm broken by Kaneda, a guy whose acknowledged to be the tournaments weakest fighter, was then able to contend with someone as strong as Haruo. Now, you can argue that, in this specific instance, Kaneda won through skill and ingenuity, and while he did, he was still able to damage Himuro, something he wouldn't be able to do if he was that much weaker than Himuro. See the difference here? The scaling between each character changes very much. And, I don't think the argument that because they didn't grow 1000 something times, the scaling doesn't vary, works. This is something that happens in fiction ALL THE TIME. Between keys and series, not every character becomes a million billion times stronger. That does not mean that characters will all scale in relativity to each other.
I'm done now.
azontr
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@Antvasima can you call some mods again to look at the posts with both my and Nik's posts?
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Thank you for helping out. 
@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Moritzva @Duedate8898 @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt
Are any of you willing to evaluate these posts please?
@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Moritzva @Duedate8898 @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt
Are any of you willing to evaluate these posts please?
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Lihito didn't lose base Raian, but Removal Raian. This is what he says directly when Raian uses his super saiyan against Mokichi. "That's the form he was in when he beat me".
Shiba broke Kiozan's nose with a page earlier, so I don't understand why you say they're not comparable. Even the Chiba page seems to suggest scaling. Kiozan defeats Chiba not by brute force, but by throwing him headfirst into concrete using him and his body mass. This is a technique.
As I understand it, Nik is not talking about full scaling, but about descending to the very bottom of the same level tier. This makes sense given the fact that characters are capable of dealing damage and taking a lot of attacks.
On the other points I am neutral. Okubo can really lose to Himuro if they aren't fresh as a pickle, but in Ohma's example, we can see that their durability doesn't suffer from that.
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Nick's arguments seem more reasonable and fit the logic of the verse.
azontr
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...Okay? This isn't a debunk. For a couple reasons:
1. It only serves to support my point that in Kengan there are large tier gaps between characters, and that none of them are widely comparable.
2. This doesn't disprove the fact that Lihito was so weak that he could get stomped by people like BoS Ohma who was indeed one of the weakest people in the series stat wise, only to start tussling with Mokichi later in Omega. His scaling changed and he grew.
A technique... which involves... brute force... that one-shot Chiba.
If Kiozan didn't have a certain level of strength that'd allow him to do so, he wouldn't have been able to. Kengan characters get slammed against concrete and the like all the time and don't get destroyed in the way Chiba was by Kiozan. So the argument that "its just a technique" is wrong.
This isn't a debunk towards my points.
They aren't. They are wrong.
azontr
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That's not how we do things here. We can't arbitrarily downscale characters like that, if they don't scale they don't scale, simple as that.
- 3,077
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- Thread starter
- #108
Whoa, buddy, don't overstep.
I understand why you responded to Sorox's arguments, but to say directly that my opinion is wrong to the person who chose my position is already too much.
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- Thread starter
- #110
This is mutual, but believe me, if the participants or moderators write that they agree with you, then I will not write to them that you are actually wrong and they have chosen the wrong option.
It wouldn't change my opinion, but I would understand that it might be subjective
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- #112
I don't care how you feel about it. Be kind, do not decide for others whether they have chosen the right position or not
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He... wasn't?
Stating an opinion is not deciding for someone else. I don't know what backwards debating there is in Russia, but in America it's giving your opinion, everyone on this thread is doing it, Azontr, you, Darthsorox, we're all giving opinions.
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- Thread starter
- #115
"I agree with this opinion.
- No, it's wrong"
This is not an expression of opinion, but childishness and an attempt to impose your idea
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"No, it’s wrong" is still an opinion.
BTW it is quite childish of you to repeatedly call someone else childish, seeing as you ain't the bigger man here just because you can type an 8-letter word to insult to someone.
But it's best if I don't derail the thread
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- Thread starter
- #118
Don't pretend to be chased. I'm just pointing out the incorrectness of your behavior above
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- #120
You are breaking the thread right now.
To say that a person is childish is not tantamount to calling him a child.
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