Karma Akabane vs Maki Harukawa

[PartialPriority54]

Rules:
Speed equalized.
Standard Equipment.
Both combatants initially fight barehanded but are allowed to use their weapons.

Connections:
Red themed assassins and weapons experts.

Scaling:
Karma scales to 5.87 MJ, 205 m/s and 500 KG
Maki Scales to 1.84 MJ, 157 m/s and ~174 KG

Polling:
Karma: 4 (me, @Jinsye, @Knowzn, @jojo123, @Doggo, @Cimafranca133)
Maki:

 

[PartialPriority54]

Bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Karma's profile needs some serious work and clarity on how those abilities work. But even without that it looks like he has the speed, stat, and versatility advantage

 

[Cimafranca133]

Maki is only 1.8 MJ since she only scales to half the feat

 

[PartialPriority54]

Karma's profile needs some serious work and clarity on how those abilities work. But even without that it looks like he has the speed, stat, and versatility advantage

I mean, doesn't Maki have a huge skill and exp advantage over him along with stronger weapons? Also, is this match a stomp or?

 

[PartialPriority54]

Bump

 

[Jinsye]

Maki having a skill advantage over Karma is eh. Karma's been shown to deal with situations against far more superhuman opponents than Maki, plus is obviously more combat ready due to Maki being an assassin over a fighter.

So Maki's only advantage is her arsenal, but Karma holds literally every other advantage. Speed advantage would let him aimdodge quite easily, so Karma takes this really low diff.

 

[PartialPriority54]

Maki having a skill advantage over Karma is eh. Karma's been shown to deal with situations against far more superhuman opponents than Maki, plus is obviously more combat ready due to Maki being an assassin over a fighter.

So Maki's only advantage is her arsenal, but Karma holds literally every other advantage. Speed advantage would let him aimdodge quite easily, so Karma takes this really low diff.

Hm, I have equalized speed now, wonder if that changes something.

 

[PartialPriority54]

i'll vote Karma too, Maki might have more experience but Karma has analytical on his profile from Korosensei's statements, he reads other people's moves to aimdodge anyway like he did with Grip in the anime and predicted his classmates' actions in their little war or anticipated Nagisa's clap stunner in their fight. Karma can quite easily read Maki like a book through informational analysis too where he'd easily discern the skill disadvantage and strength advantage he has over Maki.

He's already faced an assassin like Maki such as Nagisa, who he was basically stomping on and he is ranked 3rd in marksmanship which should put him roughly comparable to Rinka Hayami and Chiba, both of whom have sniping skills on par with professional assassins so Maki's arsenal won't help her that much. Karma has combat knives and guns too, along with knockout gas to use at close range and his special cloth pretty much nullifies any physical attacks Maki can throw at him.

 

[Knowzn]

I mean, yeah, pretty much what the rest said. Seems pretty stompish overall. Like, especially if Maki really scales to half of what is written in OP.

There is a nearly 7x difference in strength, and you cannot damage special cloth even if you are stronger than Karma (Reaper level power is required).

I mean, "skill advantage," you say, but based on what exactly? I'm not even gonna compare their combat intelligence, which Karma should be heads and shoulders above, with simply being the commander who gave Craig his first loss.

As for H2H skills, uh, skill debates are more up @Creaturemaster971's alley (though he may be distancing himself from it these days), but I can try, just off the top of my head,

Picking up Karasuma's martial arts techniques by watching them in action a few times—which Karasuma could use to hold his own against The Reaper's unorthodox, use everything and anything to kill all combat skills—with which The Reaper stands at the top of the assassination game by a large margin—said profession is just full of ex-military men who've all improved themselves to inhumane extents and single-handedly gotten out of literal war even when they were largely outnumbered. And Karma perfectly applies this in a death battle scenario on his first try.

Being able to correctly deduce the power levels of complete strangers he first saw on his life by running simulations in his head while keeping the number and skill advantages and disadvantages in mind, concluding that fight at that time specifically would be the end of his, and later single-handedly planning the wipe-out of them.

Karma has analytical on his profile from Korosensei's statements

Just noticed that. He shouldn't have one; it wasn't accepted by anyone; PartialPriority54 added it, I think.

he reads other people's moves to aimdodge anyway like he did with Grip in the anime and predicted his classmates' actions in their little war or anticipated Nagisa's clap stunner in their fight.

Reads others moves and aimdodges? I mean, I'd appreciate some elaboration, I don't really remember this. Though anticipating Nagisa's stun clap is hardly any feat, that's Nagisa's trump card that he uses almost every time he goes one-on-one, and Karma was expecting him to use even before the battle. Him countering it, as well as keeping with Nagisa's analytical prediction are better feats I'd say.

he is ranked 3rd in marksmanship which should put him roughly comparable to Rinka Hayami and Chiba, both of whom have sniping skills on par with professional assassins

Wasn't there something like four or five marksmanship rankings in the series? Long-distance shooting, ambushes, etc., which one did Karma get ranked 3rd in? 'Cuz Rinka and Chiba are portrayed as the clear-cut best gun people.

along with knockout gas to use at close range

That's something he picked up from Smog's defeat, used it once, and threw it away; he isn't gonna magically take one out of his pockets.

 

[PartialPriority54]

I mean, yeah, pretty much what the rest said. Seems pretty stompish overall. Like, especially if Maki really scales to half of what is written in OP.

Maki scales to 1.8 MJ, I wrote 3.6 before because of a feat.

I mean, "skill advantage," you say, but based on what exactly? I'm not even gonna compare their combat intelligence, which Karma should be heads and shoulders above, with simply being the commander who gave Craig his first loss.

Just read her profile on danganronpa wiki lol, she was trained as a child in assassination, her talent is nicknamed the "ultimate assassin" having killed plenty of people and shows pro efficiency in multiple weapons and combat skills related to assassination, Karma was trained for an year at most that he bunked plenty of classes, most of what you listed is more about intelligence than skill, the second part about planning a massive attack only worked because of how familiar everyone was with the environment along with the fact they had stun darts and better recon.

Just noticed that. He shouldn't have one; it wasn't accepted by anyone; PartialPriority54 added it, I think.

Oop

Wasn't there something like four or five marksmanship rankings in the series? Long-distance shooting, ambushes, etc., which one did Karma get ranked 3rd in? 'Cuz Rinka and Chiba are portrayed as the clear-cut best gun people.

Nope, there's an overall score for marksmanship that combines all the rankings, check his fandom profile, he is ranked 4th overall in the class and 3rd for the boys.

That's something he picked up from Smog's defeat, used it once, and threw it away; he isn't gonna magically take one out of his pockets.

It's under standard equipment.

And yea, I agree with the removal of analytical precog after close slow-mo inspection in his fight with grip where he wasn't actually ain-dodging.

 

[Knowzn]

Maki scales to 1.8 MJ, I wrote 3.6 before because of a feat.

Ah. About 3.2x gap then.

Just read her profile on danganronpa wiki lol,

No. I'm not doing your research for you. You're the one claiming she's skilled; you need to list down what she has in that department.

she was trained as a child in assassination, her talent is nicknamed the "ultimate assassin" having killed plenty of people

These mean literally nothing without elaboration.

shows pro efficiency in multiple weapons and combat skills related to assassination,

So does Karma.

Karma was trained for an year at most that he bunked plenty of classes,

And? You mean she is more experienced? Sure.

most of what you listed is more about intelligence than skill,

You know that both are deeply intertwined with one another, right?

Karma absorbing the knowledge of Karasuma's martial arts techniques is intelligence; Karma actually pulling off the techniques on his first try flawlessly in a death match where a single wrong move would be his death is skill. To pull it off, you'd need a great deal of coordination, concentration, precision, mental strength and instinctual combat instincts.

Unless you have superpowers (or can somehow do the impossible), most, if not every skill feat you can demonstrate, is essentially just intelligence.

the second part about planning a massive attack only worked because of how familiar everyone was with the environment along with the fact they had stun darts and better recon.

The second part generally refers to his tactical intelligence to support his combat skills.

What massive attack? You're talking as if 3-E outnumbered them in total numbers. The fact that he could make it work when his only advantage was home-field advantage is more than enough (plus, they were mercenaries dabbling in wars on unfamiliar battlefields who Karasuma said were the best-suited individuals in the entire world to defend that mountain, so I actually doubt that home-field advantage was a game changer for them).

I don't see how stun darts are an argument; you wanted them to kill them or something? They could; the fact those darts hit them in the first place is proof of that. Or beat them up? They did so to a bunch. I'm not sure what "recon" refers to.

Nope, there's an overall score for marksmanship that combines all the rankings, check his fandom profile, he is ranked 4th overall in the class and 3rd for the boys.

I don- Y'know what? This is irrelevant to the discussion, so whatever.

It's under standard equipment.

According to the edit history, PartialPriority54 appears to have declared ownership of Karma's profile, lol. Anyway, no.

In any case, I don't particularly care about the results of versus battles, and I certainly don't enjoy skill debates either (I haven't lost my sanity enough for it, plus I'm not even prepared for it; there is a limit as to how far I can go depending on memory).

Can we now begin to gradually wrap this up? We may begin the voting process after Cynic's response, for instance.

 

[PartialPriority54]

Ah. About 3.2x gap then.

I mean, does AP really matter here when knives and guns have piercing damage?

No. I'm not doing your research for you. You're the one claiming she's skilled; you need to list down what she has in that department.

Alright then she has mastered the use of every single weapon known to man, including bombs and her talent is called "the ultimate assassin". The "ultimate" is a title given to talented people described as being the very best at what they do. They often specialize in one subject, and in Maki's case, that's assassination, so she stands at the pinnacle of all of humanity when it comes to assassination skills, which would also include a fair share of martial arts mastery, she definitly shouldn't be any less skilled than Reaper if her talent pretty much makes her the best assassin there is. her other talent of the "ultimate care giver" where she is able to pacify people through her voice and regress them into a relaxed (or in Gonta's case, childlike) state. Her enhanced senses are also better than Karma's, she can detect extremely thin laser detonation traps in the air. Anyway, due to her title, Maki is the best at assassination skills in the whole world.

Stop acting like Karma knows everything Karasuma does either, Karasuma restrains himself during training periods (which is evident by the fact that subsonic+ Nagisa can keep up with him despite his 1200 m/s+ reaction speed) and he definitely hasn't revealed his full arsenal in training, of which Karma only copied some of it and himself bunks a lot of their training sessions.

What massive attack? You're talking as if 3-E outnumbered them in total numbers. The fact that he could make it work when his only advantage was home-field advantage is more than enough (plus, they were mercenaries dabbling in wars on unfamiliar battlefields who Karasuma said were the best-suited individuals in the entire world to defend that mountain, so I actually doubt that home-field advantage was a game changer for them).

That's intelligence not skill. Karma himself hardly fought anyone until Houjo came and blew him away, only for him to come right back at him. Don't act like Karma could take down all those mercenaries on his own.

I don't see how stun darts are an argument; you wanted them to kill them or something? They could; the fact those darts hit them in the first place is proof of that. Or beat them up? They did so to a bunch. I'm not sure what "recon" refers to.

Reconnaissance like Ritsu, drones, other machines etc. that allow them to see the positions of the mercaneries. 3-E's stun darts could one-shot the mercs while the mercenaries didn't have stun darts to use on class e either (they had actual guns, which of course, they can't kill 3-e obviously) and because of their superior recon, 3-E was more aware of their positions and they had their suits too which made hiding and stealth much easier for them which is why they could conduct so many surprise attacks and lure them into traps that they made against Korosensei.

This does showcase a very high intelligence feat, Karma was down 3 men and was facing far more experienced soldiers who were better than Karasuma and 6x faster than him overall, yet she still beat him. But again, it was with preparation after all and that too with some input from other people.

According to the edit history, PartialPriority54 appears to have declared ownership of Karma's profile, lol. Anyway, no.

Lol what.... You can do that now? Bruh.

In any case, I don't particularly care about the results of versus battles, and I certainly don't enjoy skill debates either (I haven't lost my sanity enough for it, plus I'm not even prepared for it; there is a limit as to how far I can go depending on memory).

Yea me too, this is all I have to say about Maki btw since my memory isn't the best either and I don't have time to re-read the manga for DR either. I anyway voted for Karma but Maki's skill advantage over him is definitely greater than his strength advantage where she's been training her whole life (she is 16, I think) and Karma's only been training for 1 year, that too bunking classes now and then + also having to study for his exams. There's only so much you can learn in that timespan. Karma is far more intelligent than Maki is though.

 

[Knowzn]

I mean, does AP really matter here when knives and guns have piercing damage?

Still.

Stop acting like Karma knows everything Karasuma does either
Don't act like Karma could take down all those mercenaries on his own.

How to strawman 101.

mastered the use of every single weapon known to man

Citation needed.

her talent is called "the ultimate assassin". The "ultimate" is a title given to talented people described as being the very best at what they do. They often specialize in one subject, and in Maki's case, that's assassination, so she stands at the pinnacle of all of humanity when it comes to assassination

Cool. Unless Danganronpa has other assassins, specifically assassins, mind you, with skill feats, this means nothing.

Assassination skills, which would also include a fair share of martial arts mastery.

Circular reasoning.

she definitly shouldn't be any less skilled than Reaper if her talent pretty much makes her the best assassin there is.

Mix of association fallacy and undistributed middle, ultimately, argument from belief.

I’ve asked you to list down what she has in the skill department.

You've made several logical leaps that come down to this: she has the title "ultimate assassin," Reaper is an assassin, and thus Maki equals Reaper in skill.

This is the third time I’m asking you: you’re claiming she is skilled; back it up.

her other talent of the "ultimate care giver" where she is able to pacify people through her voice and regress them into a relaxed (or in Gonta's case, childlike) state.

So, social influencing, one that even Nagisa surpasses via being able to neutralize people in the middle of mental breakdowns with a touch; it is not something he is unfamiliar with.

she can detect extremely thin laser detonation traps in the air.

That trap has varied depictions depending on the particular series. Sometimes it is straight up impossible to see, invisible. Sometimes everyone can spot it. The former is just a superpower. If it’s just way too thin, something everyone can see under the right conditions, and Maki sees it clearly, that’d be something.

Lol what.... You can do that now? Bruh.

No, if I were to file a report on him, he'd be on the ground for a harsh warning or a ban of a week or two. Anyways, Antvasima seems to have given him a warning, so I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'll handle the changes on Karma's profiles sometime.

I won't respond to the rest; as I said, I'd like to gradually wrap this up, but these were way too out there to not point out. I also vote for Karma. Maki can still shoot him; yeah, I forgot that piercing damage was a thing completely and entirely for a moment there; that’s a wincon.

 

[PartialPriority54]

Citation needed.

Cool. Unless Danganronpa has other assassins, specifically assassins, mind you, with skill feats, this means nothing.

Yes they do, they even have soldiers and "ultimate" is referring to the whole world, not just the cast presented to us.

Mix of association fallacy and undistributed middle, ultimately, argument from belief.

Fair enough then, we don't get to see much of Maki other than her talent which makes her the best assassin in the whole world (at least it's comparable to irl assassins?). Even still, same could be said for Reaper or Koro, it's not like they showcased any skills in a fight, Reaper relied on his underhanded traps and scythe to win against Karasuma, not his skill or martial arts abilities either. I guess there's his clap stunner too?. But other than those minor feats, the only thing we have to go off is that they are the best assassins in the world, Reaper doesn't really show skills with guns or knives as such.

I mean, Maki doesn't really have any on screen feats of "skill" as such, so if it's just based on that then Karma probably has the advantage, at the very least, she has citations of mastering the usage of all weapons and seen as the best assassin in the world, which should give her the skill edge over Karma and h2h skills won't be important here but Maki has mastered Jiu-Jitsu.

I also vote for Karma

I agree to disagree I guess, thank you for replying.

 

[jojo123]

Karma FRA

 

[Knowzn]

Cite.

I’d say "every single weapon known to man" and "mastered" when all she says is that she knows how to use them is a bit exaggerated, but yes, that suffices, thank you.

Fair enough then… (text)... Reaper doesn't really show skills with guns or knives as such.

I wrote up like three paragraphs on this but deleted them since they were derailing and cluttering the thread.

Eh, let’s stop here. You can hit me up on my wall, in PMs, or whatever if you ever wanna talk about it.

I mean, Maki doesn't really have any on screen feats of "skill" as such… (text)... which should give her the skill edge over Karma.

I get the pain. But if there are no on-screen demonstrations or examples of others' demonstrations that she can use statements to upscale off of (and even then, I know that some wouldn't accept it without some kinds of feats backing it up), vague statements like that don't mean much. It’s just how the site works.

I agree to disagree I guess, thank you for replying.

Didn’t you also vote for Karma, why quote that?

No worries. Happy to help! Apologies if I came off as rude or some such in any of my replies, btw; I was more so being blunt.

 

[PartialPriority54]

bump.

 

[PartialPriority54]

bump

 

[Doggo]

Karma fra

 

[Cimafranca133]

Karma FRA

 

[Doggo]

That's six votes

one more

 

[GoldenBooster445]

Well if it's this close to grace then might as well vote Karma FRA.

 

[Doggo]

Well if it's this close to grace then might as well vote Karma FRA.

Thank you lol

 

[GoldenBooster445]

Thank you lol

Grace is over, plz add matchup (I can't edit pages on VSBW D: ]

 

[GoldenBooster445]

Added this match, thread can now be closed.