Kamijou Touma VS Shiroyama Kyosuke

[Zhaoshuais]

Seems interesting,as Touma can negate Materials and break Protective Circle or Artificial Sacred Ground.This makes a completely different battle for Shiroyama Kyosuke.

And they begin with knowledge for each other,as they have meet before.

Discuss two situations:

1,strictly one on one,that means Shiroyama Kyosuke has no Vessel.

2,allow both side to bring in a supporter(for Shiroyama Kyosuke,Vessel can only act as Vessel;for Kamijou Touma,he can bring in Othinus as advisor and she would not be attacked as it's hard to aim a target which is only 15cm tall)

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Seems difficult for Shiroyama Kyosuke,as without Materials,it would be hard for him to break Touma's durability.But Touma can negate from beginning.

 

[LazyHunter]

In both cases Kyousuke stomps Touma due to superior precog, superior intelligence, superior fighting skills, better reach and generally being a better close-ranged fighter.

The only way Kyousuke could lose is in round 2 if he summoned a Material, Touma nulled it with IB and Kyousuke somehow doesn't see this coming and undoes the contract prior to IB making contact. Which is not going to happen given you gave them knowledge on each other.

Othinus can't help Touma at all on this one, and aiming and hitting a 15cm target is trivial to someone on Kyousuke's level, actually any decent Blood Sign summoner should be capable of casually doing it.

 

[Andrew48]

Kyousuke is better at CQC than Touma, Kyousuke is the "strongest" Kamachi protag.

Round 1 Kyou

Round 2 Kyou, without a way to interfer with the 3D pool, Kyou have freedom to summon any unexplored class. Which makes this curbstomp the moment he pulls out Colorless (cause of course he won't pull out White Queen).

 

[Zhaoshuais]

In both cases Kyousuke stomps Touma due to superior precog, superior intelligence, superior fighting skills, better reach and generally being a better close-ranged fighter.

The only way Kyousuke could lose is in round 2 if he summoned a Material, Touma nulled it with IB and Kyousuke somehow doesn't see this coming and undoes the contract prior to IB making contact. Which is not going to happen given you gave them knowledge on each other.

Othinus can't help Touma at all on this one, and aiming and hitting a 15cm target is trivial to someone on Kyousuke's level, actually any decent Blood Sign summoner should be capable of casually doing it.

Touma has better strike power and durability,in fact,he can one hit ko Kyousuke,and Kyousuke can not cause enough damage on him without Material. After NT9 Touma should also have good fighting skill and better precog than before,as Othinus "trained" him for at least several thousand years in that way. Touma can interfer with 3D pool,just with his IB.And he can just attack Protective Circle,as his IB can easily break through. Othinus can evade attack,and although she is only 15cm now,her body is still Magic God,it's not so easy to knock her out from this battle.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Kyousuke is better at CQC than Touma, Kyousuke is the "strongest" Kamachi protag.

Round 1 Kyou

Round 2 Kyou, without a way to interfer with the 3D pool, Kyou have freedom to summon any unexplored class. Which makes this curbstomp the moment he pulls out Colorless (cause of course he won't pull out White Queen).

Touma has better durability and strike power,and his right hand can interfer with the 3D pool.

 

[LazyHunter]

Touma has better strike power and durability,in fact,he can one hit ko Kyousuke,and Kyousuke can not cause enough damage on him without Material

No, he cannot one-hit Kyousuke, who as a 10 year old kid was breaking down super secure doors with one kick and as a teenager can fight and defeat soldiers, assassins and powered suit users. And yes, Kyousuke can physically beat him down, a task made very easy given he has a weapon giving him reach over Touma and much better pseudo-precog. After all, even if Touma could oneshot Kyousuke with his punch it wouldn't even matter, as he's not going to be capable of laying a finger on Kyousuke unless he lets him.

After NT9 Touma should also have good fighting skill and better precog than before,as Othinus "trained" him for at least several thousand years in that way.

Again, wrong. Not only there is not a significant increase in Touma's combat skill or pseudo-precog, the novel explicitly tells us that the experience gained by fighting Othinus was only useful for fighting Othinus. It was just memorization of her attack patterns to dodge them better, not training to improve his skill or pseudo-precog.

Touma can interfer with 3D pool,just with his IB.And he can just attack Protective Circle,as his IB can easily break through.

The only way he can interfere with the Blood Sign ceremony and win is by touching the Material before getting killed and Kyousuke somehow not seeing this coming and not cutting his contract with his vessel at the last moment. He cannot stop Kyousuke from building up his Material, and piercing the protective circle is meaningless on its own since that doesn't undo the ceremony, so it still doesn't solve the issue of Kyousuke being perfectly capable of beating down Touma himself. This is all completely irrelevant in round 1, and in round 2 Kyousuke wouldn't even bother to summon a Material, as he knows he can beat Touma down himself with little difficulty.

Othinus can evade attack,and although she is only 15cm now,her body is still Magic God,it's not so easy to knock her out from this battle.

Othinus in her 15cm has the physical capabilities one would expect. She can be chased down by a small cat, her magic knowledge is useless in this fight and the only other skill we've seen her have is an affinity with birds like ravens. Her presence here doesn't help Touma, and any decent summoner could take her out of the fight. Or just ignore her, because she can't really do anything to prevent Touma getting his ass kicked by Kyousuke here.

 

[Schnee_One]

Touma throws a punch

Kyousuke grabs his arm and tosses him into the floor

Is there a different outcome aside from the other dozens of ways Kyousuke crushes Touma?

 

[Malox1696]

any martial arstist can beat touma

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Touma has better strike power and durability,in fact,he can one hit ko Kyousuke,and Kyousuke can not cause enough damage on him without Material
No, he cannot one-hit Kyousuke, who as a 10 year old kid was breaking down super secure doors with one kick and as a teenager can fight and defeat soldiers, assassins and powered suit users. And yes, Kyousuke can physically beat him down, a task made very easy given he has a weapon giving him reach over Touma and much better pseudo-precog. After all, even if Touma could oneshot Kyousuke with his punch it wouldn't even matter, as he's not going to be capable of laying a finger on Kyousuke unless he lets him.

After NT9 Touma should also have good fighting skill and better precog than before,as Othinus "trained" him for at least several thousand years in that way.

Again, wrong. Not only there is not a significant increase in Touma's combat skill or pseudo-precog, the novel explicitly tells us that the experience gained by fighting Othinus was only useful for fighting Othinus. It was just memorization of her attack patterns to dodge them better, not training to improve his skill or pseudo-precog.

Touma can interfer with 3D pool,just with his IB.And he can just attack Protective Circle,as his IB can easily break through.

The only way he can interfere with the Blood Sign ceremony and win is by touching the Material before getting killed and Kyousuke somehow not seeing this coming and not cutting his contract with his vessel at the last moment. He cannot stop Kyousuke from building up his Material, and piercing the protective circle is meaningless on its own since that doesn't undo the ceremony, so it still doesn't solve the issue of Kyousuke being perfectly capable of beating down Touma himself. This is all completely irrelevant in round 1, and in round 2 Kyousuke wouldn't even bother to summon a Material, as he knows he can beat Touma down himself with little difficulty.

Othinus can evade attack,and although she is only 15cm now,her body is still Magic God,it's not so easy to knock her out from this battle.

Othinus in her 15cm has the physical capabilities one would expect. She can be chased down by a small cat, her magic knowledge is useless in this fight and the only other skill we've seen her have is an affinity with birds like ravens. Her presence here doesn't help Touma, and any decent summoner could take her out of the fight. Or just ignore her, because she can't really do anything to prevent Touma getting his ass kicked by Kyousuke here.

I'm afraid that Touma's fighting skills is at least as good as Kyousuke,if not better.

Kyousuke does not need to fight against Materials by himself,but Touma has to deal with opponents at that level almost every week.

And IB can also break blood sign,even directly break the whole ceremony.

We should notice that in NT10 Touma suffered massive damage from Saints and Thor,but can still fight.Without Material,Kyousuke may hit on Touma for several times,but can not cause real damage,as Shizuo Heiwajima(Tier 9-A) did in crossover.

 

[LazyHunter]

I'm afraid that Touma's fighting skills is at least as good as Kyousuke,if not better.

Sorry, but this claim is laughable to anyone who has read both series. No, Kyousuke is much more skilled in combat than Touma, as the quotes in the blog post linked in the series' page prove.

Kyousuke does not need to fight against Materials by himself,but Touma has to deal with opponents at that level almost every week.

I think that you're trying to say that Touma is somehow stronger than Kyousuke because Kyousuke cannot fight or defeat Materials by himself. Of course this argument is complete nonsense and ignores the context and setting of both series. Claiming A>B and B>C therefore A is automatically stronger than C doesn't fly with most of Kamachi's works, because following that faulty logic I can say that a single US special forces operator > Accelerator.

And IB can also break blood sign,even directly break the whole ceremony.

Not happening. As noted in his page, Kyousuke is one of the summoners who use a physical Blood Sign, not a magical one. He uses a Repliglass staff, which won't be affected by IB at all.

We should notice that in NT10 Touma suffered massive damage from Saints and Thor,but can still fight.

That's an endurance/stamina feat, not a durability one. Kyousuke also has those.

Without Material,Kyousuke may hit on Touma for several times,but can not cause real damage, Way to ignore that Kyousuke does have the strength to hurt Touma.

as Shizuo Heiwajima(Tier 9-A) did in crossover.

Non-canon crossover, therefore, not used here. Regardless, I thinkthe crossover had Touma hurt, but still managing to get up, so it was an endurance feat and not "Touma tanked/shrugged off Shizuo without real damage" like you claim.

 

[Schnee_One]

So uhh

How on earth did Touma survive so long

 

[LazyHunter]

You mean in general or...?

 

[Schnee_One]

In general I guess

As in how the **** do the antagonists not just hire a dude with a gun or decent martial skills to just kick Tonua's ass

 

[LazyHunter]

Touma has managed to survive by fighting smart, being resilient and skilled at using IB plus being good at using allies/environment to his benefit. He still gets his ass consistently kicked by the characters that should beat him, so those are usually handled by his allies.

About guns, there's a reason Touma mostly takes on magic side problems.

For most of the original series very few people are even aware IB exists. Touma gets involved in incidents against people that weren't counting on fighting him, and thus weren't really planning on fighting him. Thus the magicians and espers like Accel aren't carrying a gun, because why would they normally carry one when their powers are clearly better?

The magic side and science side also have a treaty regulating how they shouldn't interfere with each other too much and agree to not use the techniques of the other side beyond a certain extent. Thus magicians don't use tech a lot, because the treaty is vague and it can lead to the bigger magic organizations like Necessarius that keep order in the magic side to hunt you down as a criminal. Using a modern gun would likely fall under that, so very few do. Additionally, most magic side characters are proud of their magic and how they learned it. They would view using a gun as basically admitting the science side is superior, and as seen with Aleister, they don't appreciate that.

However against the science side, which doesn't have these limitations or hangups, Touma is much more limited and whenever he has to deal with guns he has to use tricks or leave the guns to his allies like Mikoto. Crowley would likely not appreciate someone assassinating Touma, so he would likely interfere if, for example, a sniper in AC was hired to kill Touma.

About the martial arts, most characters in the series are not trained fighters or soldiers. This is an explicit weakness of several magicians as noted by Tsuchimikado back in OT4, and most espers are just teens with superpowers. Thus, most of the characters Touma fights rely on their powers to fight, so Touma can hold his own against them using IB. When fighting with someone who is a skilled fighter on top of having magic/esper powers like Tsuchimikado, Kanzaki or Carissa he has a much harder time, usually getting his ass kicked.

TL;DR: Kamachi adressed those points in the novels and gave actual explanations about the magic side not using guns. Touma mostly fights characters that rely on powers instead of fighting skill for a reason and he genuinely has the trouble one would expect him to have when forced out of his comfort zone. He also relies a lot on his allies and circumstances of the fight to win.

 

[Schnee_One]

Damn

Thanks, that's neat

 

[Andrew48]

To add on, Touma's physical abilities are nothing to laugh at. He only loses to beyond peak-human martial artists. His endurance and strength are nearly inhuman. But then again, a lot of Kamachi's "human" characters are so ridiculously strong that cause them to get questioned about whether they are really human.

Case in point, in official cross-over with Durarara, Touma lived through getting smashed into a building with a vending machine with only a light headache, getting smashed into a car, and then getting punched 17 times by Shizou. Celty, an actual supernatural being who have knife proof shadow don't think she can endure that beatdown, and questions whether Touma is really human.

So when it comes to martial artists, Kamachi really means Batman. (he bases his MC's physical abilities on Hollywood action blockbusters, no joke, he said so himself in one of the afterwords. Except for Accel, who is based on a sandbag.)

Anyway I vote, Kyou for both, cause Kyou is literally Kamachi Batman. Word of God, Kyou is the strongest protag, only losing to the pig.

 

[LazyHunter]

@Andrew48

That's also true, sometimes people exagerate the "martial artist = Touma loss" a bit. Expert martial artists and fighters in Toaru are stronger than RL level martial artists even without using any powers.

I mean, technically Boo Boo wins only if we limit "protag" to the actual main characters of the main series, because if we extend it to all his protagonists Accelerator is the one who wins. Mikoto can also beat Kyousuke.

Of course bloodlusted Kyousuke with prep owns all other protags by showing up to the fight with permanently summoned White Queen.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

@Andrew48
That's also true, sometimes people exagerate the "martial artist = Touma loss" a bit. Expert martial artists and fighters in Toaru are stronger than RL level martial artists even without using any powers.

I mean, technically Boo Boo wins only if we limit "protag" to the actual main characters of the main series, because if we extend it to all his protagonists Accelerator is the one who wins. Mikoto can also beat Kyousuke.

Of course bloodlusted Kyousuke with prep owns all other protags by showing up to the fight with permanently summoned White Queen.

We should notice that Leivinia Birdway bring a gun with her,and it proved that Touma knows how to deal with such condition.

And we should notice that Mikoto can not beat Touma at most time,NT10 is an extreme condition that She has so many robots to control,and Touma is greatly weakened.

Bloodlusted Kyousuke with prep,that's horrible,but under such extreme condition,Touma would cut off his own right arm to make a last effort.

 

[Andrew48]

@Andrew48
That's also true, sometimes people exagerate the "martial artist = Touma loss" a bit. Expert martial artists and fighters in Toaru are stronger than RL level martial artists even without using any powers.

I mean, technically Boo Boo wins only if we limit "protag" to the actual main characters of the main series, because if we extend it to all his protagonists Accelerator is the one who wins. Mikoto can also beat Kyousuke.

Of course bloodlusted Kyousuke with prep owns all other protags by showing up to the fight with permanently summoned White Queen.

We should notice that Leivinia Birdway bring a gun with her,and it proved that Touma knows how to deal with such condition.
And we should notice that Mikoto can not beat Touma at most time,NT10 is an extreme condition that She has so many robots to control,and Touma is greatly weakened.

Bloodlusted Kyousuke with prep,that's horrible,but under such extreme condition,Touma would cut off his own right arm to make a last effort.

I thought we were going with the Canon personality? Which means IT is not counted as among Touma's tools.

Otherwise we might as well gave Kyou White Queen. Which from how Kamachi scales his own series means that Kyou still wins.

That opens a whole new can of worms, so let's not go there.