JUJUTSU KAISEN SPEED DOWNGRADE CONT.

[PrinceofPein]

Continued from this thread

There are quite a few problems on the speed pages aside from the value, we have a scaling that does not make sense,
for example, this is Yuji's speed justification

Massively Hypersonic (Could keep up with both Mahito and Kento. Comparable to Maki, who reacted to and caught a bullet at point-blank range) | Massively Hypersonic (Faster than before)

He is said to be MHS cause he kept up Mahito and Kento, both of who has just "Hypersonic" speed to begin with. And they all scale to Maki's Hypersonic speed calc.

But the problem here is that, aside from the issues with the calc such as using 445m/s for a rubber bullet speed, the Author has repeatedly put a cap on Maki's speed, A maki who is far faster than the one in the calc, on quite a few occasions, the most recent one been; she stating that she needs to prepare before she can react to something coming at her at speed of sound and then in a few panels later, she got blitzed by a Mach 3 speed, which was coming at her from quite a distance I should add, such thing calculated will result in barely subsonic reactions.

Here is a compiled post of stated in-verse speeds for the characters by @KingTempest

1. Hanami's buds couldn't travel a close distance in 0.01 seconds. That's not hypersonic.
2. Naobito's Projection Sorcery of covering melee distances in 1/24 seconds. Next to Gojo, he's the fastest Jujutsu Sorcerer, which means every other Jujutsu Sorcerer is below him. He was blitzing Dagon, and stated to be possibly faster than Jogo. Consistent, they say "he's the fastest" while Gojo is sealed..
3. Naoya's Cursed Technique lets him track movement at 1/24 seconds each. This means that his regular reactions are inferior. This means that his speed is inferior when he's shown to not cover large distances in those timeframes. Yuji calls him fast.
4. Piercing Blood is canonically shown to be faster than sound by its sonic boom, then it progressively gets slower. Can conclude that it goes to below the speed of sound after its initial fire.
5. His peak speed (it's his peak speed) is stated to be supersonic, and the context is implying that everything else he's done isn't supersonic.
6. Naoya and Naobito's victim is frozen for 1 second if they don't move at a specific timeframe of 1/24 seconds. Maki doesn't even move that, and she's frozen. Naoya couldn't even cover that melee distance in a single second. It's consistent.
7. They blatantly say he moves faster than the speed of sound, and they imply that they can't. "If he moves at the speed of sound, we'll prepare".
8. He gets to Mach 3.
9. In the new chapter He is stated to be faster than anything Kamo has seen
10. Not just that, Going at speeds like Mach 3 would destroy someone of durability like Naoya when he is not curled up, effectively meaning anyone who has the same durability as Naoya or a durability lower than Naoya cannot move at such speed. (So yes they get the Naruto Heavenly Transfer Technique durability cap treatment).

I wanted to try and list out possible counter arguments, but then I realized the OP actually has none, the possible counter arguments comes from other calculated feat in the series that are controversial and that has been mostly contested and addressed in the first thread, but nonetheless there are calcs like this that are simply invalid and I notice some of the JJK calcs are like that

Kamo manages to dodge react and block Naoya’s (curse) attack resulting in Supersonic speeds. This feat is funny as it happens in the fight with Naoya (curse) where he himself acknowledges Naobito (by extension human Naoya) as the fastest sorcerers, where he gets blitz by cursed womb Naoya who would be Supersonic, but reacts the complete and faster Naoya, without any amps or help.

Essentially a character who believes the fastest characters are sound/supersonic, gets blitz by a supersonic character, only for him to react and block a faster version of that character at point blank without an increase of speed.

i. It makes no sense for Kamo to be Supersonic and faster than Naoya, if he himself thinks he is inferior to Naoya
ii. Naoya only moves at Speed of sound and Mach 3 when he charges up, making the calc in itself invalid
iii. Authors don't always draw to scale especially when Maki said in the next panel that she is slower than Naoya who needs to charge up to reach such speed.
iv. simply like author saying; "Character A cannot be as fast as a light beam, then we have character A dodge a light beam" then fans calculated Character A to be 2 times FTL in the same chapter, using the in-verse statement about the light beam while ignoring the fact that he said that he is not as fast as a light beam.

Another example of this type of calc is Yuuji's Piercing blood calcs that places him 11 times faster than the attack itself, an attack that he considers fast and could barely dodge on a few occasions.
Most of the other calcs, take characters speed in the verse and other character blitzing them, but there are a few valid calcs such as Gojo's dodging explosions and possibly Hakari's lightning feat, but that itself is been contested and I have seen four different calcs for it, MHS+, MHS, Hypersonic and Subsonic.

So what do the characters scale to now?
Since literally all the characters except Gojo and Sukuna speed revolves around Maki(a much weaker maki), here is a calc of Maki's bullet dodge which is consistent with the narrative.

That been said I don't want this thread to devolve into which is more consistent, the calcs or the in-verse statements - that has already been done in the other thread, but if it becomes that, in terms of consistency, I can assure you that there are so many feats that when calculated would not get anything more than subsonic and lesser speed, calcs just take the highest possible speed they can think the character did and use them while ignoring other lower consistent speed.

 

[KingTempest]

Remove point 6, that got debunked

 

[Cyberblader90]

While the original was a little disorganized I don't see the need for this

 

[Cyberblader90]

9 and 10 need to be reworded

Nine is just that he's faster than anything from kamo's perspective. Kamo is not a omniscient narrator. The statement would only apply to characters he's seen the full speed of.

Statement 10 is blatantly wrong because it's that naoya is a glass Cannon who's less durable than hanami.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

@Duedate8898 requesting for this to be closed.

 

[KingTempest]

lol, even i can do that

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Why Mach 3 is inconsistent

My first point will touch upon sound speed in the manga. If we are to take the statements about projection sorcery (and not assume ignorance on Gege's part) as valid, then that means supersonic movement should not be possible outside of its users, god tiers, and hax. Naoya is able to use this speed to initially pressure Maki meaning she reaches sonic-supersonic reaction speeds only in this state. Mind you, Maki was also completely blitzed by speeds of mach 3, despite Naoya being dozens to hundreds of meters away from her at the time. This would mean Maki, a bonified physical top tier in the verse, has reactions speed well below anything close to sonic speeds.
Using 50m (lowball) and assuming that Maki could move .5m (she didn't) would give her a speed of 10.29m/s.

Here lies the crux of the argument between both sides. If you believe the above bolded is something that has been established in the series, then by all means, but I can't possibly see how this is the case. So therefore this should be decided using the stated cite standard[1] [2] and go with what is more consistent. However, before I discuss why I believe that it blatantly clear that JJK has established mach 1 is a something well eclipsed, I would like to tackle an important subject that I see being used a crux for lack of arguments against evidence presented by my side.

Feats & Statements
I've seen a lot of people appeal to the argument, which essentially boils down to something along these lines: "Author statements are more reliable than fan calcs" or "The author really seems to want to make supersonic a cap therefore, that author sentiment should take precedence". I feel these types of arguments are pretty deceptive and contradictory to a great extent.

"Fan Calcs" inherently come with a margin of error that is affected via various things such as assumptions (typically involved with time, distance, and chemical composition), quality of art, explicit or vague nature of the feat, etc. This is something that is generally acknowledged by the overarching community and comes with the territory. However, this is not to be used as a cover for attacking feats themselves. Feats themselves are literally the gold standard when it comes to canon for our purposes. Feats don't even have to be visual as is the case with novels and other non-visual literature. Feats literally represent the actuality of what occurred in the story. While you can claim feats are outliers or lowballs (comics are littered with these) they still happened within the confines of the story. Statements on the other hand, lend themselves to criticism much more when not accompanied by feats. This is simply due to the nature of authors being fallible and touching upon things in their narrative they may not have the expertise to properly make a judgment for. If an author goes to hell and back with statements that describe his characters as explicitly human level, yet also consistently has his characters dodging explosions, dodging bullets after they are fired, blitzing people from several meters away, etc., then his verse is not that speed.

Calcs put as specific number as you can on something but there still exists a margin for error. This does not erase the natural consequences of reacting to certain constants such as bulletfire, lightning, light, etc. You can accurately ballpark feats based on these constants and the nature of a feat even without a specific calc. I'd easily argue that feats (events) more so than statements are indicative of author intent, as they actually happened and are not just being stated.

Mach Speed and JjK

The above was important to preface this section because it outlined two major things which I will address in this section:
1. Naoya actually being mach 3 makes Maki (a top tier) an entity well below sonic levels of speed.
2. JJK has consistently shown levels of speed (in varying forms) in the ball park of supersonic to hypersonic. This is both in number of feats in addition to timespan over the manga. These two factors are important as they address incidence (in the case of quantity) and duration.

If the statements surrounding projection sorcery (and to a certain extent blood manipulation) are taken as gospel then surely we'd be hard-pressed to find any supersonic feats, let alone multiple supersonic/hypersonic feats littered throughout? Let's take a look at the timeline.

Timeline

Spoiler

Chronologically our first feat is probably a young Geto blocking bullet fire with his technique when squaring off against Toji. This feat is also indicative of speed for several reasons. The first being that it was done at close range and Getou only reacts as they are within a meter of him and crosses a decent distance with his hand. This would place the feat easily into the supersonic-hypersonic range. It's also important to note that toji (despite being faster) can't just kill sorcerers of this caliber with guns (as this also applies to gojo). This also being a weaker version of Getou who then got beat by younger Yuta.
Ch. 4
BoS Yuji is capable of physically moving at subsonic speeds.

Ch. 9
Early on in the series Sukuna performs a casually supersonic feat while toying with Megumi. I want to again stress this as casual as he'd been toying even with the likes of finger bearer let alone Megumi. It's also important to note that Megumi references Sukuna's speed here when facing off against his pops who Maki is explicitly compared to several times. This is obviously a point against mach 3 being demonstrably something outside of JJK's scope given this feat is mach 3.

Ch. 14
Gojo reacts to a point-blank explosion

Ch. 35
The next feat of note occurs when the opposing team is ambushing Yuji during the tournament. Despite Mai shooting (real bullets) first, he is able to escape all 3 shots. This is likely a subsonic to sonic feat that was calced at around half the speed of sound, but it still is important as Yuji physically moving at these speeds makes the notion of Maki getting blitzed by Mach 3 from hundreds of meters away quite preposterous, especially this version of Yuji.

Ch. 42
Later on in this arc we are shown that Maki is capable of casually outpacing gunfire at close range. She is skilled enough to split her bullets in half, React to bullets at point blank range, and make all 6 shots useless. The topic of these bullets is hotly debated but let's look at the facts.

Mai clearly has two sets of bullets on her. She uses one set to try and kill Yuji and switches over to rubber bullets later. This is touched upon by Mai assuring her teammate that she was only using rubber bullets against Nobara. Vs Maki we see Mai load realistic looking bullets into her gun, though to be fair her "rubber bullets are realistic and clearly use casing and primers.
She uses all 6 of her physical bullets and is forced to create a material bullet with her cursed technique.
Maki is unaware of this technique and is caught by surprise by the seventh bullet being fired in succession from her magnum and is forced to react harshly and catch the bullet. She then claims it isn't something that should be touched with the manga showing blood/scorching.

Now as you can tell, it is very hard to decipher which bullets she was using vs Maki and also if she created a real bullet or a fake bullet. However, this doesn't really matter to me. Even if we utilize rubber bullet speed being fired from a magnum with primer, the speeds would still be relative to mach speeds. For reference, this is a CO2 revolver that fires round (less aerodynamic) bullets. It's speed is mach 0.390. These slugs used for less than lethal weapons clocks in at mach 0.64. So, even using rubber bullet speed, Maki's feat comes out to mach 4.5 and barely misses being hypersonic. Mind you that Maki treated those speeds as nothing when aware of Mai's ammo.

Ch. 44
The next feat involves Kamo and Megumi reacting to supersonic plant attack from Hanami. Pretty straightforward.

Ch. 52
Jozo reacts to soundwaves

Ch. 115
Panda and Co are able to escape the AOE of the meteor blast despite Sukuna keeping them there until the last second.

Ch. 134
Kenjaku reacts to sniper fire that is < a meter away from him.

Ch. 150
Zenin Clan fodder can move at subsonic speeds without cursed amps, and Current Maki literally kill-billed a squad of these men.

Ch. 168
Megumi reacts to an explosion and is specifically credited for his ability to quickly save himself and the girl before being hit.

Takaba casually intercepts an explosion post detonation

Ch. 186
Finally, Hikari's reacts to Kashimo's lightning. This cursed technique is explicitly stated to work similar to lightning and is described as such. It also qualifies several of the wiki standards for lightning equivalence including; Causing electrolysis in water, having paralyzing effects, being conductive through metals, causing a steam explosion after transferring mass amounts to water (which Hikari reacts to) and having output stronger than normal lightning bolts. Now, admittedly, this level of speed is pretty much the actual current cap for the verse as it's a sure hit and while able to perceive it, Hikari could only slightly react and the third time is only able to heal mid-damage. But it still puts into perspective the scale of reaction at this level and mach 3 being beans especially with the feats preceding this one.

As you can see the sonic to hypersonic range is something JJK has been established as being in speedwise. The idea that we forsake all of these feats across the series, in order to fit the mold of these supersonic statements as opposed to just understanding Gege not fully understanding the speed scale they themselves have set up, is not something I can so-sign. It being extremely important to reiterate that accepting the statements for Naoya means Maki cannot even be anywhere near supersonic given the how far Naoya was when he blitzed her. Meaning most of the above feats are just flat out invalid.

Proposed Conclusion/Scaling

JJK characters have clearly reacted to phenomena that is in the ballpark of sound, sound itself, or faster than sound itself. Bullets, explosions, perception blitzing, reacting to sound attacks, etc are all apart of the speed chain of this manga. As such I don't feel ignoring the amount of events that would be needed to be ignored in order to agree with the downgrade.

I ultimately believe sorcers should keep speeds for reactions and combat speed. Movement speed is something I think she be noted as lower and scaled appropriately.

Those Scaling to Maki would keep supersonic+-Hypersonic reactions which would pretty much cover all Semi-Grade sorcerers and up. We've seen sorcers of this caliber not really be fazed much by guns given their defenses and reactions. Anyone below this would probably scale to Zenin Fodder or Jozo.

Movement speed for this tier would be subsonic or below with the best showing being Megumi's explosion feat, Zenin clan fodder, Panda's escape feat, and beginning of story Yuji's blitz.

People on Toji level would scale to Sukuna's mach 3 feat for movement speed.

Special Grade Threats that can fight on par with Yuta, Hikari, Kashimo, etc should benefit from Hikari's reaction speed which will end up being some level of MHS-MHS+, but only in reaction speed.

Basically
God Tiers: MHS+ reaction/combat speed and supersonic+ movement speed.
Top Tiers: MHS+ reaction/combat speed and supersonic+ movement speed.
High Tiers: Hypersonic reaction/combat speed and subsonic movement speed.
Mid Tiers (everyone below tournament arc Maki in speed): subsonic-baseline supersonic reactions/combat/movement speed.

 

[KingTempest]

Chronologically our first feat is probably a young Geto blocking bullet fire with his technique when squaring off against Toji. This feat is also indicative of speed for several reasons. The first being that it was done at close range and Getou only reacts as they are within a meter of him and crosses a decent distance with his hand. This would place the feat easily into the supersonic-hypersonic range. It's also important to note that toji (despite being faster) can't just kill sorcerers of this caliber with guns (as this also applies to gojo). This also being a weaker version of Getou who then got beat by younger Yuta.

This looks like the rawest subsonic feat I've seen in a while.

Your eye for what qualifies as supersonic-hypersonic is hilariously upsetting

 

[Dr._whiteee]

This looks like the rawest subsonic feat I've seen in a while.

Your eye for what qualifies as supersonic-hypersonic is hilariously upsetting

Considering he arcs a soild meter before the bullets travel maybe a foot, foot and a half, I'd say it's a pretty solid supersonic feat.

Even if it was "lol subsonic" it would deviate from my overarching point of why mach 3 is inconsistent.

 

[KingTempest]

I'll calc it then, looks trash, surprised if it was subsonic+

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Following even when I will not comment

 

[Arkenis]

THAT IS NOT CLOSE RANGE.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

THAT IS NOT CLOSE RANGE.

5m is close range. There aren't even 10 floor panels in between them.

 

[Jibz]

THAT IS NOT CLOSE RANGE.

Deadass thats near a three point shot distance give or take a metre lmfao

 

[Arkenis]

5m is close range. There aren't even 10 floor panels in between them.

In comparision to the other speed feats THAT IS NOT CLOSE RANGE

 

[Deceived3596]

Following

 

[Jibz]

5m is close range. There aren't even 10 floor panels in between them.

Deadass thats near a three point shot distance give or take a metre lmfao

ayyy i was right. Bro was dodging bullets from a distance where stephen curry takes jumpshots lol

 

[Dr._whiteee]

In comparision to the other speed feats THAT IS NOT CLOSE RANGE

Okay? I never referenced any other one besides that there so why would that matter to me?

None of that changes them being within 5m of each other, nor does it change from where Getou blocked the bullets.

 

[Arkenis]

Okay? I never referenced any other one besides that there so why would that matter to me?

None of that changes them being within 5m of each other, nor does it change from where Getou blocked the bullets.

Just an insignificant feat and you know this man

 

[Naeblis495]

As i said in the previous thread, i beleive there is far too much statements and most likely feats that point toward supersonic speed being impressive for strong JJK characthers for us to ignore them and use the few high end calcs for JJK speed.

I am in favor of the downgrade.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Considering he arcs a soild meter before the bullets travel maybe a foot, foot and a half, I'd say it's a pretty solid supersonic feat.

Even if it was "lol subsonic" it would deviate from my overarching point of why mach 3 is inconsistent.

The feat is not supersonic in the slightest, pistol shots are like 370-400 m/s and Geto blocked them from 5 meters away which would be Subsonic

 

[Romeu08]

Why Mach 3 is inconsistent

My first point will touch upon sound speed in the manga. If we are to take the statements about projection sorcery (and not assume ignorance on Gege's part) as valid, then that means supersonic movement should not be possible outside of its users, god tiers, and hax. Naoya is able to use this speed to initially pressure Maki meaning she reaches sonic-supersonic reaction speeds only in this state. Mind you, Maki was also completely blitzed by speeds of mach 3, despite Naoya being dozens to hundreds of meters away from her at the time. This would mean Maki, a bonified physical top tier in the verse, has reactions speed well below anything close to sonic speeds.

Here lies the crux of the argument between both sides. If you believe the above bolded is something that has been established in the series, then by all means, but I can't possibly see how this is the case. So therefore this should be decided using the stated cite standard[1] [2] and go with what is more consistent. However, before I discuss why I believe that it blatantly clear that JJK has established mach 1 is a something well eclipsed, I would like to tackle an important subject that I see being used a crux for lack of arguments against evidence presented by my side.

Feats & Statements
I've seen a lot of people appeal to the argument, which essentially boils down to something along these lines: "Author statements are more reliable than fan calcs" or "The author really seems to want to make supersonic a cap therefore, that author sentiment should take precedence". I feel these types of arguments are pretty deceptive and contradictory to a great extent.


Calcs put as specific number as you can on something but there still exists a margin for error. This does not erase the natural consequences of reacting to certain constants such as bulletfire, lightning, light, etc. You can accurately ballpark feats based on these constants and the nature of a feat even without a specific calc. I'd easily argue that feats (events) more so than statements are indicative of author intent, as they actually happened and are not just being stated.

Mach Speed and JjK

The above was important to preface this section because it outlined two major things which I will address in this section:
1. Naoya actually being mach 3 makes Maki (a top tier) an entity well below sonic levels of speed.
2. JJK has consistently shown levels of speed (in varying forms) in the ball park of supersonic to hypersonic. This is both in number of feats in addition to timespan over the manga. These two factors are important as they address incidence (in the case of quantity) and duration.

If the statements surrounding projection sorcery (and to a certain extent blood manipulation) are taken as gospel then surely we'd be hard-pressed to find any supersonic feats, let alone multiple supersonic/hypersonic feats littered throughout? Let's take a look at the timeline.

Timeline

Spoiler

Chronologically our first feat is probably a young Geto blocking bullet fire with his technique when squaring off against Toji. This feat is also indicative of speed for several reasons. The first being that it was done at close range and Getou only reacts as they are within a meter of him and crosses a decent distance with his hand. This would place the feat easily into the supersonic-hypersonic range. It's also important to note that toji (despite being faster) can't just kill sorcerers of this caliber with guns (as this also applies to gojo). This also being a weaker version of Getou who then got beat by younger Yuta.
Ch. 4
BoS Yuji is capable of physically moving at subsonic speeds.

Ch. 9
Early on in the series Sukuna performs a casually supersonic feat while toying with Megumi. I want to again stress this as casual as he'd been toying even with the likes of finger bearer let alone Megumi. It's also important to note that Megumi references Sukuna's speed here when facing off against his pops who Maki is explicitly compared to several times. This is obviously a point against mach 3 being demonstrably something outside of JJK's scope given this feat is mach 3.

Ch. 14
Gojo reacts to a point-blank explosion

Ch. 35
The next feat of note occurs when the opposing team is ambushing Yuji during the tournament. Despite Mai shooting (real bullets) first, he is able to escape all 3 shots. This is likely a subsonic to sonic feat that was calced at around half the speed of sound, but it still is important as Yuji physically moving at these speeds makes the notion of Maki getting blitzed by Mach 3 from hundreds of meters away quite preposterous, especially this version of Yuji.

Ch. 42
Later on in this arc we are shown that Maki is capable of casually outpacing gunfire at close range. She is skilled enough to split her bullets in half, React to bullets at point blank range, and make all 6 shots useless. The topic of these bullets is hotly debated but let's look at the facts.


Now as you can tell, it is very hard to decipher which bullets she was using vs Maki and also if she created a real bullet or a fake bullet. However, this doesn't really matter to me. Even if we utilize rubber bullet speed being fired from a magnum with primer, the speeds would still be relative to mach speeds. For reference, this is a CO2 revolver that fires round (less aerodynamic) bullets. It's speed is mach 0.390. These slugs used for less than lethal weapons clocks in at mach 0.64. So, even using rubber bullet speed, Maki's feat comes out to mach 4.5 and barely misses being hypersonic. Mind you that Maki treated those speeds as nothing when aware of Mai's ammo.

Ch. 44
The next feat involves Kamo and Megumi reacting to supersonic plant attack from Hanami. Pretty straightforward.

Ch. 52
Jozo reacts to soundwaves

Ch. 115
Panda and Co are able to escape the AOE of the meteor blast despite Sukuna keeping them there until the last second.

Ch. 134
Kenjaku reacts to sniper fire that is < a meter away from him.

Ch. 150
Zenin Clan fodder can move at subsonic speeds without cursed amps, and Current Maki literally kill-billed a squad of these men.

Ch. 168
Megumi reacts to an explosion and is specifically credited for his ability to quickly save himself and the girl before being hit.

Takaba casually intercepts an explosion post detonation

Ch. 186
Finally, Hikari's reacts to Kashimo's lightning. This cursed technique is explicitly stated to work similar to lightning and is described as such. It also qualifies several of the wiki standards for lightning equivalence including; Causing electrolysis in water, having paralyzing effects, being conductive through metals, causing a steam explosion after transferring mass amounts to water (which Hikari reacts to) and having output stronger than normal lightning bolts. Now, admittedly, this level of speed is pretty much the actual current cap for the verse as it's a sure hit and while able to perceive it, Hikari could only slightly react and the third time is only able to heal mid-damage. But it still puts into perspective the scale of reaction at this level and mach 3 being beans especially with the feats preceding this one.

As you can see the sonic to hypersonic range is something JJK has been established as being in speedwise. The idea that we forsake all of these feats across the series, in order to fit the mold of these supersonic statements as opposed to just understanding Gege not fully understanding the speed scale they themselves have set up, is not something I can so-sign. It being extremely important to reiterate that accepting the statements for Naoya means Maki cannot even be anywhere near supersonic given the how far Naoya was when he blitzed her. Meaning most of the above feats are just flat out invalid.

Proposed Conclusion/Scaling

JJK characters have clearly reacted to phenomena that is in the ballpark of sound, sound itself, or faster than sound itself. Bullets, explosions, perception blitzing, reacting to sound attacks, etc are all apart of the speed chain of this manga. As such I don't feel ignoring the amount of events that would be needed to be ignored in order to agree with the downgrade.

I ultimately believe sorcers should keep speeds for reactions and combat speed. Movement speed is something I think she be noted as lower and scaled appropriately.

Those Scaling to Maki would keep supersonic+-Hypersonic reactions which would pretty much cover all Semi-Grade sorcerers and up. We've seen sorcers of this caliber not really be fazed much by guns given their defenses and reactions. Anyone below this would probably scale to Zenin Fodder or Jozo.

Movement speed for this tier would be subsonic or below with the best showing being Megumi's explosion feat, Zenin clan fodder, Panda's escape feat, and beginning of story Yuji's blitz.

People on Toji level would scale to Sukuna's mach 3 feat for movement speed.

Special Grade Threats that can fight on par with Yuta, Hikari, Kashimo, etc should benefit from Hikari's reaction speed which will end up being some level of MHS-MHS+, but only in reaction speed.

Basically
God Tiers: MHS+ reaction/combat speed and supersonic+ movement speed.
Top Tiers: MHS+ reaction/combat speed and supersonic+ movement speed.
High Tiers: Hypersonic reaction/combat speed and subsonic movement speed.
Mid Tiers (everyone below tournament arc Maki in speed): subsonic-baseline supersonic reactions/combat/movement speed.

I agree with this, we always use feats before statements and if its heavily contradicted its better to use what is shown than said

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The feat is not supersonic in the slightest, pistol shots are like 370-400 m/s and Geto blocked them from 5 meters away which would be Subsonic

We use the distance away from Getou since he blocked after they were fired. He is shown to move his right hand at least a meter using his attack before the bullets crossed the distance from where they met with his technique. So it's going to be 370m/s from about a foot or two away not 5m.

The only reason this logic worked with the Yuji calc is because we never saw how close the bullets got to him before he moved.

 

[PowerToScale]

I can probably write a response later

 

[Arkenis]

Yuji

On entrance, Yuji is presented with Piercing Blood, an attack that exceeds the speed of sound only to block it even though an outright dodge would have been fully within his capacity to do so especially given the distance they had between each other, and going off your scaling that puts Yuji several times higher than sos making him hypersonic, three tiers above Piercing Blood. And as we've discussed and has been discussed numerous times, Piercing Blood actually slows down after its initial release. Another thing to point out is that Yuji tells us the attack is too fast and that he has a fifty-fifty chance of dodging and ofc this fifty-fifty chance is tested by Yuji and what happens? He gets hit yet again making the speed of Yuji consistently at subsonic with calcs also supporting this such as The 50% end from this calc.

Uraume

Uraume is another character who reacts to Piercing Blood, but his reaction is incredibly terrible given that like Yuji, the distance between them would be enough for a hypersonic character to dodge without worry and yet can't and even calls the attack fast.

Next is Naoya

Naoya's max speed, the same guy who was blitzing around Yuji and Choso in his base speed, Sorcerers who you believe to be hypersonic, Had Already Surpassed Subsonic Speed. Then in recent chapters a Healthy Maki is saying that she'd need to prepare for the speed of sound and ends up getting blitzed by Mach 3 aka Supersonic+. (Even if you think Maki reacted to top speed Human Naoya, the fact that Maki and Kamo are saying they need a counter to speeds faster than sound is a problem and explicitly shows where the characters are in speed)

I'm done. Hopefully this shows how the author, Gege Akutami of Jujutsu Kaisen is being consistent when it comes to the portrayal of speed they want their verse to be at instead of basing it off numerous calcs which tend to be slightly above or consistent with Subsonic to Subsonic+ numbers ends. Hopefully I've convined people.

 

[Duedate8898]

Yuji

On entrance, Yuji is presented with Piercing Blood, an attack that exceeds the speed of sound only to block it even though an outright dodge would have been fully within his capacity to do so especially given the distance they had between each other, and going off your scaling that puts Yuji several times higher than sos making him hypersonic, three tiers above Piercing Blood. And as we've discussed and has been discussed numerous times, Piercing Blood actually slows down after its initial release. Another thing to point out is that Yuji tells us the attack is too fast and that he has a fifty-fifty chance of dodging and ofc this fifty-fifty chance is tested by Yuji and what happens? He gets hit yet again making the speed of Yuji consistently at subsonic with calcs also supporting this such as The 50% end from this calc.

This has been covered so many times so I don't really plan on restating this past this post. But for one, the words don't match the feats in this context. And for two, when the slow down occurs is made clear.

For the former, Yuji says the attack is too fast, yet he manages to duck and dodge the attack itself when its only a few inches or so from his face. If it was truly too fast for him, he wouldn't be able to dodge it or avoid it at all. But the fact that he dodges when its so close to hitting him in the first place means he has to move faster than the attack itself, which would go against it being faster than himself.

For the latter, Yuji only mentions the attack slowing down when Choso tries to use PB to slash Yuji after shooting it at him. Not before then. And with Uraume, as I will point out below, it is visually shown to us that the slowdown does not occur when the attack is traveling straight forward. Hell, even in these latest chapters with Kamo, using it from much further than even Choso it's treated as fast and powerful from even further away which wouldn't make sense if it slowed down to such a degree as the calc above assumes.

Uraume

Uraume is another character who reacts to Piercing Blood, but his reaction is incredibly terrible given that like Yuji, the distance between them would be enough for a hypersonic character to dodge without worry and yet can't and even calls the attack fast.

If the attack truly slowed down, then there shouldn't be a Mach cone even though it's only a few inches from his face and long after Choso had fired it. Not to mention, Urahime still blocks the attack therefore reacting to an attack that is it at least speed of sound and displaying Supersonic reactions here. Probably even greater since Uraume manages to block this attack as well.

Next is Naoya

Naoya's max speed, the same guy who was blitzing around Yuji and Choso in his base speed, Sorcerers who you believe to be hypersonic, Had Already Surpassed Subsonic Speed. Then in recent chapters a Healthy Maki is saying that she'd need to prepare for the speed of sound and ends up getting blitzed by Mach 3 aka Supersonic+. (Even if you think Maki reacted to top speed Human Naoya, the fact that Maki and Kamo are saying they need a counter to speeds faster than sound is a problem and explicitly shows where the characters are in speed)

And this is the only legitmate, I think, anti-feat going against the current speed scaling. All the stuff with piercing blood doesn't really support what's being pushed here either since we're shown several characters reacting to and defending against PB when it is used.

 

[KingTempest]

No way your argument is "Yuji was wrong about his own opinion"

 

[Arkenis]

For the former, Yuji says the attack is too fast, yet he manages to duck and dodge the attack itself when its only a few inches or so from his face. If it was truly too fast for him, he wouldn't be able to dodge it or avoid it at all. But the fact that he dodges when its so close to hitting him in the first place means he has to move faster than the attack itself, which would go against it being faster than himself.

But he didn't dodge it, he got hit, clear as day is a massive line of blood on his face meaning calcing the feat from the distance before it hits inflates the results but you and others conveniently ignore this.

If the attack truly slowed down, then there shouldn't be a Mach cone even though it's only a few inches from his face and long after Choso had fired it. Not to mention, Urahime still blocks the attack therefore reacting to an attack that is it at least speed of sound and displaying Supersonic reactions here. Probably even greater since Uraume manages to block this attack as well.

And this is the only legitmate, I think, anti-feat going against the current speed scaling. All the stuff with piercing blood doesn't really support what's being pushed here either since we're shown several characters reacting to and defending against PB when it is used.

The feats where characters react are anti-feats for them if they were hypersonic, not supporters of hypersonic. The Mach cone is funny to bring up considering Naoya's first time showing a mach cone was at max speed where Maki has to prepare to dodge it. How do you make this consistent? Maki can't dodge mach speeds from Naoya but Piercing Blood makes a mach cone and now people who scale slower than Maki can react to mach up close?

 

[Arkenis]

yet he manages to duck and dodge the attack itself when its only a few inches or so from his face

The dodge in question

Oh look he definitely dodged it here as well

And look something I just found, You can't make this up, a non fully condensed piercing blood hit Yuji up close.

 

[KingTempest]

Last one didn't even break the sound barrier like all the other ones

 

[Arkenis]

Last one didn't even break the sound barrier like all the other ones

definitely hypersonic though. ignore Gege though

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

As I said, I agree with the downgrade. But you guys are really turning this into a shit debate by acting like assholes

 

[Arkenis]

As I said, I agree with the downgrade. But you guys are really turning this into a shit debate by acting like assholes

I'll stop. it's just frustating is all.

 

[Duedate8898]

No way your argument is "Yuji was wrong about his own opinion"

I'm saying the feats shown contradict the statement given, which isn't abnormal for something like manga or anime.

The dodge in question

Oh look he definitely dodged it here as well

And look something I just found, You can't make this up, a non fully condensed piercing blood hit Yuji up close.

But he didn't dodge it, he got hit, clear as day is a massive line of blood on his face meaning calcing the feat from the distance before it hits inflates the results but you and others conveniently ignore this.

I'm not conveniently ignoring this. Seeing as it was aimed at hitting his entire head and didn't hit it, yes Yuji did dodge it. Sure it grazed him, but that doesn't negate the fact Yuji managed to dodge the attack. Yuji only gets hit by piercing blood directly twice, the first time when he blocks it upon Choso first seeing him and the second right after taking a beating from Choso, and getting his head slammed into a wall. The other two times Yuji manages to only get grazed by the attack. So it's two hits on Yuji and two missies. And for the last time he got grazed, he was also distracted by his conversation with Mechimaru so he has reason to getting grazed their as well. So looking at it, Choso only ever gets one clean hit with Piercing Blood, and that's only after Yuji is right up close and having been surprised hit by Supernova, stabbed in the foot, faked out, and then slammed head first into a wall. With all of that happening to him in short order, him getting hit by Choso's PB doesn't seem impossible even if its slower than him.

Unless you're going to argue that Choso was actually aiming to graze Yuji's nose and shoulder, and hit his arms when they first met?

The feats where characters react are anti-feats for them if they were hypersonic, not supporters of hypersonic. The Mach cone is funny to bring up considering Naoya's first time showing a mach cone was at max speed where Maki has to prepare to dodge it. How do you make this consistent? Maki can't dodge mach speeds from Naoya but Piercing Blood makes a mach cone and now people who scale slower than Maki can react to mach up close?

As is the entire argument against the downgrade, there are many feats within the series which would support greater than supersonic speeds for a majority of the cast, including Maki in question. We make this consistent by dismissing all this stuff with Naoya, as outliers in terms of combat and reaction speeds. Because the manga itself has shown feats which put these characters on a higher level of speed as shown with White's first post and Power To Scale's own.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Here is me addressing what has not been addressed

Ch. 44
The next feat involves Kamo and Megumi reacting to supersonic plant attack from Hanami. Pretty straightforward.

This is a calc full of so many assumptions the biggest of all timerame and also reacting to something calculated to be less than 1.5X faster than sound from that distance won't even give you subsonic speed aside calculating it will be calc stacking, so this point in invalid.

Ch. 52
Jozo reacts to soundwaves

From more than 10 meters? Subsonic
Given the fact that he was shown struggling to do so, will mean thats not even his combat speed just reactions

Ch. 115
Panda and Co are able to escape the AOE of the meteor blast despite Sukuna keeping them there until the last second.

Uhhhm that's all they need tho, even with subsonic speed.
Also shockwaves travel around less than the speed of sound.

Ch. 134
Kenjaku reacts to sniper fire that is < a meter away from him.

Aim dodging feats and try 10 meters from him

Ch. 150
Zenin Clan fodder can move at subsonic speeds without cursed amps, and Current Maki literally kill-billed a squad of these men.

So a simple drawing of a character leaving the panel is supposed to be valid? That is vs wiki standards, the author has no such intentions while drawing the panels

Ch. 168
Megumi reacts to an explosion and is specifically credited for his ability to quickly save himself and the girl before being hit.

Then he proceeds to not be able to react to one at all, not even turn.

Takaba casually intercepts an explosion post detonation

Calc is good, narrative wise tho is he a 100 times faster than Megumi?


Also for the Hakari lightning feat, there is a subsonic and supersonic calc for it, the supersonic calc is not valid tho, as it places him 4 times faster than the lightning

 

[KingTempest]

We use the distance away from Getou since he blocked after they were fired. He is shown to move his right hand at least a meter using his attack before the bullets crossed the distance from where they met with his technique. So it's going to be 370m/s from about a foot or two away not 5m.

The only reason this logic worked with the Yuji calc is because we never saw how close the bullets got to him before he moved.

This feat is subsonic

Geto Blocks Toji's Bullets

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Arkenis]

I'm not conveniently ignoring this. Seeing as it was aimed at hitting his entire head and didn't hit it, yes Yuji did dodge it. Sure it grazed him, but that doesn't negate the fact Yuji managed to dodge the attack. Yuji only gets hit by piercing blood directly twice, the first time when he blocks it upon Choso first seeing him and the second right after taking a beating from Choso, and getting his head slammed into a wall. The other two times Yuji manages to only get grazed by the attack. So it's two for two in hits on Yuji. And for the last time he got grazed, he was also distracted by his conversation with Mechimaru so he has reason to getting grazed their as well. So looking at it, Choso only ever gets one clean hit with Piercing Blood, and that's only after Yuji is right up close and having been surprised hit by Supernova, stabbed in the foot, faked out, and then slammed head first into a wall. With all of that happening to him in short order, him getting hit by Choso's PB doesn't seem impossible even if its slower than him.

We've seen Yuji get his head knocked around multiple times and still react to people, we've seen Yuji have full on conversations in the midst of battle and monologue about extremely detailed approaches to how to counter his opponents, you're telling me that suddenly now it's become a problem for Yuji? This is not at all consistent. These characters either can endure damage and still stay at a good speed or a single slam to the head, a stabbed foot and some hits to the back now messes up their speed? Come on bro, We've seen people like Nobara and Megumi react to people after being destroyed in a fight, Yuji got his hand almost smashed in by Mahito and still was keeping up with him like nothing was wrong, we've seen Naobito move around without an arm and having a swarm of shikigami mall him. I could probably find more examples but I think you get my point.

 

[KingTempest]

Give me a list of everything that needs a calc

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Here is me addressing what has not been addressed

This is a calc full of so many assumptions the biggest of all timerame and also reacting to something calculated to be less than 1.5X faster than sound from that distance won't even give you subsonic speed aside calculating it will be calc stacking, so this point in invalid.

Timeframe is from the anime IIRC. If the calc is invalid though I will concede that one but nothing has been stated in the blog.

From more than 10 meters? Subsonic
Given the fact that he was shown struggling to do so, will mean thats not even his combat speed just reactions

10m?
Even as Jozo backs up from deflecting the attack he is standing right in front of the old man which we then see is the case when Gojo intervenes and the old man is still standing a couple feet away. At most they are 5m apart.

Uhhhm that's all they need tho, even with subsonic speed.
Also shockwaves travel around less than the speed of sound.

Subsonic movement speed Panda does not fit a mach 3 speed gap narrative. That's the point.

Aim dodging feats and try 10 meters from him

Aim dodging lmao? He literally had no idea Mai was there, was actively fighting other people, and only reacted after the bullet was fired.

So a simple drawing of a character leaving the panel is supposed to be valid? That is vs wiki standards, the author has no such intentions while drawing the panels

They do this multiple times and yes the clear intention being that they can leave human view without being seen traveling. You also clearly just said you were okay with a bunch of fodder being subsonic with the meteor feat, so this is on par with their tier of movement speed.

Then he proceeds to not be able to react to one at all, not even turn.

False. The first explosion Megumi is caught off-guard by as he doesn't know he is fighting two people, and also has no reason to suspect an eyeball in the sky was going to blow up. Even with that explosion Megumi does react which is why only one side of his face gets burnt. The feat I am referencing is afterward when Megumi is aware of the cursed technique and is then able to perform several complex actions and move several meters while still outpacing the amped explosion.

Calc is good, narrative wise tho is he a 100 times faster than Megumi?

No, because Megumi scales to Maki's bullet feat. But yes, given his status and abilities it's not farfetched. Megumi is still around first grade level.

Also for the Hakari lightning feat, there is a subsonic and supersonic calc for it, the supersonic calc is not valid tho, as it places him 4 times faster than the lightning

No, that's already been debunked. There is currently two MHS feats for it and more than enough evidence for lightning speed.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

This feat is subsonic

Geto Blocks Toji's Bullets

vsbattles.fandom.com

I have no qualms with this aside from you need to calc the whole motion of his arc from hand to hand and not just the length of the bullets to his right hand. He still made the whole arc before any of the bullets made it passed.