- 21,468
- 30,790
What arc? It looks like he just opened 2 portals on his hands and let the cursed spirit inside cover the distance.
I calced the middle of the spirit, coincidentally the bullet was at the middle.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
JUJUTSU KAISEN SPEED DOWNGRADE CONT.
- Thread starter PrinceofPein
- Start date
- Status
I calced the middle of the spirit, coincidentally the bullet was at the middle.
- 2,430
- 1,163
Only problem is the Geto length, as we see that his one arm is fully extended and additionally to that length he crossed the distance between his two shoulders. Doing rough calcs on my phone I get 118 m/s (still subsonic)This feat is subsonic
Geto Blocks Toji's Bullets
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 21,468
- 30,790
Can just say it's the full length of his arm, regardless it would barely be over twice the speed of the current one
Also
Hanami's Retrosonic Buds
vsbattles.fandom.com
Uraume Blocks SonicBlood
vsbattles.fandom.com
Last edited:
- 5,658
- 4,892
not sure where people are getting panda and co outpaced the meteor aoe, as kusakabe was buried under rubble
- 5,658
- 4,892
i think context for takaba needs to be given here. His CE output and speed increase when wanting to do something he considers funny, in accordance with his reality warping technique. This is how he both dodges and survives explosions. The scene of him saving Megumi is him trying to be funny in his own way, which lines up with dialogue he gives right after.
His technique literally warps reality so things will go exactly as they need to for his attempted comedy. As such nobody should be scaling to takaba, since he varies in stats from scene to scene.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
Could have been caught from the debris flying and just laid under.
- 2,430
- 1,163
The site has a standard regarding statements and how they are used for power scaling. The statement at hand the is that Naoya’s (curse) top speed had reached Mach 3, and that Naoya as a human was reaching speeds equal to sound, if not supersonic at his peak.
This character’s speed is being regarded as the faster than the majority, if not all other characters in the series. This statement would fall under Option 5.
When taking statements, a character can be upgraded (in this case downgraded) off a statement compared to a criterion:
This one is a big yes. Throughout the series, characters have shown feats and inconsistencies towards the idea of human Naoya being sound/supersonic and his cursed self being Mach 3 at their peaks. To start of the list:
I believe this show enough evidence that the current statements regarding speed of sound to Mach 3 speeds for the fastest JJK characters is inconsistent. While the author is the most reliable source, they have made mistakes, furthermore feats and other showings throughout the series shows that characters have plenty of moments contradicting the proposed speeds, with contradictory moments in the setting of said statements.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The other part is correct, there is a disconnect between feats/showings and statements/implications within the series which is why this whole feats contradict the statement is happening.
ii. Even lowering to sound give supersonic results. No change there.
iii. According to this logic, nothing can ever be calced, hence no feat should ever be calculated. Even so, the authors would still have a general concept of scale when it comes to feats; for example, the author would know that it would be impossible to avoid a sound attack that was two inches from your face and for them to be slower than subsonic speeds. The idea of statements and feats contradict for this reason.
iv. As was previously stated, this would run contrary to their ideas because within power scaling showings feats often go hand in hand with one another, but problems arise when one deviates from the other. Due to the fact that feats really depict the events rather than just stating them, they frequently overcome in debates about which to use.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Problem 1) The calc is using the full distance between between characters when the feat happen much closer as shown in the image of "partial feat"
Problem 2) "Ratio" the pixels between to different panels that would utilize different and perspective is not a accurate way to calculate number/distance, effectively making results inaccurate. Would be like using the same pixel sizes for a far off image on a close up.
Here is a fixed version of the calc.
vsbattles.fandom.com
This character’s speed is being regarded as the faster than the majority, if not all other characters in the series. This statement would fall under Option 5.
- Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings.
When taking statements, a character can be upgraded (in this case downgraded) off a statement compared to a criterion:
1) If the source of the statement is reliable?
The statement comes from the narrator (author) of the series, meaning it comes from the current most reliable source in the series. However, when we take a look into the author, we can find a few “hi-cups” in their reliability. The author has one previous occasion made claims such as the black flash being a ^2.5 increase in strength, falling to realize its ability limitations and admits to their “stupidity” being exposed. Not only that, but the ^2.5 increases fail to follow consistency with scaling, ultimately resulting in character reaching levels to great for the series. Another instance is with Gojo technique, they author has displayed their annoyance in explaining the technique due to not being able to do so properly, resulting in other staff and external mathematicians brought by the editor of the series to do so. The author themselves have shown to not be the best when it comes to math's, already lower creditability in that department.
Am I saying the author is completely unreliable, no. However, they have shown to not be completely accurate at times and should be double checked before assuming they are correct.
Am I saying the author is completely unreliable, no. However, they have shown to not be completely accurate at times and should be double checked before assuming they are correct.
2) If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?
This one is a big yes. Throughout the series, characters have shown feats and inconsistencies towards the idea of human Naoya being sound/supersonic and his cursed self being Mach 3 at their peaks. To start of the list:
Maki’s bullet feats- Early on in the series Maki displays feats of catching a bullet that is mere inches from her face, being quick enough, sweep it aside, resulting in Supersonic to High Hypersonic speeds. Her ability to respond and move at speeds faster than sound and Mach 3 is demonstrated by this early in the series.
Not only that, Maki reacts to bullets that are being fired at her from close range (not point blank) at Supersonic speeds, even after correcting for correct bullet speeds in the other calculation (220-360 m/s). Additionally, there are previous instances in which she splits a bullet in two from point blank ranges and potentially avoids being hit from point blank again. Ranges closer than the feat.
Another feat is Sukuna's (3 fingers) feat of blitzing Megumi resulting in Supersonic+ speeds. This feat is important as this same Sukuna is what Toji speed is referred to be comparable if not faster than, which while still slower, Megumi while on guard in Shibuya was able to still react and dodge to him. Showing Shibuya characters in at least in the Supersonic+ ranges. Sukuna’s (15 finger) feat results in him reaching Hypersonic+ levels of speed, another feat above Mach 3.
Fumihiko Takaba's jump into the path of an explosion to halt it, which resulted in speeds of High Hypersonic, is another accomplishment depicted in the series. This would increase the number of feats for above sound.
Yuji dodging Piercing Blood (PB) is another feat that showcases speeds greater than the sound. Piercing Blood is an attack that exceeds the speed of sound, while viz says reaches the speed of sound, it has been shown to be an incorrect translation, viz holds the status of butchering translation in the series. For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions.
The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case. When taking account, the situation. The two mentions of the attack, both mention its speed surpassing sound with one only mentioning it being slow, this would be a significant feature to mention until you look at the situation. The only instance of Piercing Blood being regarded as slower later is in the fight with Choso where Yuji was attacked with the PB initially only to be followed by a secondary slash attack with the PB beam, were after experiencing them both Yuji referrers to the PB beam as the initial fast aspect, while the slash would be the slower aspect with the attack. The part of it initially surpassing sound its base speed, which can be increased as the guidebook states. Coupled by the fact that it being slowed down or slower than before is never mentioned ever besides the one time Yuji was attacked by a two attack combo, suggests my interpretation has some validity.
To give the benefit of the doubt if it slows down after it’s been fired, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji. Yuji would also gain Supersonic perception from seeing it initially being faster than sound.
The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case. When taking account, the situation. The two mentions of the attack, both mention its speed surpassing sound with one only mentioning it being slow, this would be a significant feature to mention until you look at the situation. The only instance of Piercing Blood being regarded as slower later is in the fight with Choso where Yuji was attacked with the PB initially only to be followed by a secondary slash attack with the PB beam, were after experiencing them both Yuji referrers to the PB beam as the initial fast aspect, while the slash would be the slower aspect with the attack. The part of it initially surpassing sound its base speed, which can be increased as the guidebook states. Coupled by the fact that it being slowed down or slower than before is never mentioned ever besides the one time Yuji was attacked by a two attack combo, suggests my interpretation has some validity.
To give the benefit of the doubt if it slows down after it’s been fired, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji. Yuji would also gain Supersonic perception from seeing it initially being faster than sound.
Hakari (Infinite Mode) has shown to dodge lightning at point blank ranges, resulting in Massively Hypersonic+ results. While Hakari is a Top Tier-God Tier that scales above almost everybody else Human Naoyo, who is regarded to be the fastest along Naobito in the whole JJK Association, besides Gojo (faster than everyone besides Gojo), is supposedly only sound/supersonic at his top speed. This same lightning feat also had a science advisor overseeing and helping it accuracy to be lightning. The same feat lowballed heavily to electricity speeds produces Mach 6 results, still above Mach 3.
Other feats included in the series that showcase such as the Hand attack by Chojuro Zenin reaching Transonic speed, and Hanami’s tree expansion reaching Supersonic speeds. Furthering the idea of characters being in the sound Mach ranges and not below it significantly.
Kamo manages to dodge react and block Naoya’s (curse) attack resulting in Supersonic speeds. This feat is funny as it happens in the fight with Naoya (curse) where he himself acknowledges Naobito (by extension human Naoya) as the fastest sorcerers, where he gets blitz by cursed womb Naoya who would be Supersonic, but reacts the complete and faster Naoya, without any amps or help.
Essentially a character who believes the fastest characters are sound/supersonic, gets blitz by a supersonic character, only for him to react and block a faster version of that character at point blank without an increase of speed.
Essentially a character who believes the fastest characters are sound/supersonic, gets blitz by a supersonic character, only for him to react and block a faster version of that character at point blank without an increase of speed.
Another instance of characters being in the sound/supersonic are that happens early on in the series Juzo perceiving and block sound attacks, showing relativity to those speeds, yet faster characters in later arcs are supposedly perception blitz by Sound-Mach 3 speeds.
Uraume reacts to Piercing Blood and at point blank ranges, and managing to block the attack. Pretty simple
Naoya (human) while going at casual speeds blitz Choso and Yuji, the same Yuji who is able to perceive the initial supersonic speeds of piercing blood, and even states to be able to up his speed. This same Naoya while still casual is running circles around Choso who increased his visual acuity to perceive faster and dodges PB from close ranges, although is only sound/supersonic when going all out.
There are also other feats such as Geto (Kenjaku) reacting and blocking to sniper fire only after the bullet has travelled close to him, and young Geto blocking bullets shoot at him from relatively close ranges.
The misc. arguments are ones that aren’t concrete although potentially can be used.
Characters like Yuji (beginning or Series) and lesser Zenin members are capable of going subsonic speeds, with the difference from sound being only roughly 2 times less.
The sound users in the series aren’t treated as extreme opponents and are not even regarded for the attack speeds, while rivalling the fastest characters.
Sukuna (1 finger) is perception blitzing a curse spirit, who is able to perception blitz Beginning of Series Megumi and Yuji.
Characters like Yuji (beginning or Series) and lesser Zenin members are capable of going subsonic speeds, with the difference from sound being only roughly 2 times less.
The sound users in the series aren’t treated as extreme opponents and are not even regarded for the attack speeds, while rivalling the fastest characters.
Sukuna (1 finger) is perception blitzing a curse spirit, who is able to perception blitz Beginning of Series Megumi and Yuji.
3) If the statement is only valid in the context of its setting, or if it holds up in comparison with other settings?
As shown by the aforementioned feats and inconsistencies, the statement does not hold up in the setting or story. A previous statement used to justify it states the Naoya (Human) had already surpassed subsonic speeds. Key word: Already (past tense). The statement states that in their battle Naoya had already surpassed subsonic speeds and is greatly increasing speed as fight goes on, causing trouble for a worn out and wounded Maki. In the same recent chapters Maki herself says that she needs to prep for at speed of sound, yet while worn and wounded is able to count a faster than subsonic Naoya’s movements and even turn and punch a full speed Naoya before he could hit her. She also reacts to cursed womb Naoya and states he is move at supersonic speeds. She also manages to keep up with supersonic Naoya, yet is scared of him going as fast as sound.
I believe this show enough evidence that the current statements regarding speed of sound to Mach 3 speeds for the fastest JJK characters is inconsistent. While the author is the most reliable source, they have made mistakes, furthermore feats and other showings throughout the series shows that characters have plenty of moments contradicting the proposed speeds, with contradictory moments in the setting of said statements.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Current speeds are outdated, that's true.
This first part is inherently false. The rubber bullet speed is not 445m/s, this is from the original calc that used real bullet speed before issues, the new rubber bullet speed was 220m/s and the new real bullet speed was 360 m/s.
The other part is correct, there is a disconnect between feats/showings and statements/implications within the series which is why this whole feats contradict the statement is happening.
There is not much that I have to say that others haven't already mentioned in this and previous thread. However, I would like to cover some aspects to this that I feel need to.
5. Scans aren't loading up and goes to a not found page.
10. For two reasons, the durability argument is invalid. The first is that the entire durability obtained from speed would be subject to the kinetic energy formula, which is impossible because it calls for mass. It is difficult to know because Naoya is no longer human and has a completely different shape, different proportions, and is constructed of materials that aren't actually known. Second, adding human mass would produce wall-level durability, which is drastically opposed by calculations as well as on-screen deconstruction.
10. For two reasons, the durability argument is invalid. The first is that the entire durability obtained from speed would be subject to the kinetic energy formula, which is impossible because it calls for mass. It is difficult to know because Naoya is no longer human and has a completely different shape, different proportions, and is constructed of materials that aren't actually known. Second, adding human mass would produce wall-level durability, which is drastically opposed by calculations as well as on-screen deconstruction.
i. Congrats you found an inconsistency within the series. You are right, if characters were below mach/sound it shouldn't. This feat also comes directly in the same fight these statements are coming from, showing a further disconnect with feats and statements. this is why feats > statements are being argued.
ii. Even lowering to sound give supersonic results. No change there.
iii. According to this logic, nothing can ever be calced, hence no feat should ever be calculated. Even so, the authors would still have a general concept of scale when it comes to feats; for example, the author would know that it would be impossible to avoid a sound attack that was two inches from your face and for them to be slower than subsonic speeds. The idea of statements and feats contradict for this reason.
iv. As was previously stated, this would run contrary to their ideas because within power scaling showings feats often go hand in hand with one another, but problems arise when one deviates from the other. Due to the fact that feats really depict the events rather than just stating them, they frequently overcome in debates about which to use.
Already outlined by others in the previous thread and I believe here as well.
This first part has been addressed in the previous thread on why the calc is faulty.
Problem with the calc is the bullet speed as it mentions it uses 60 m/s of riot gun 37-mm M201-Z, which for the record looks like this. Its like firing a sniper but using BB gun bullet speeds, it not comparable. While using the 220 m/s speeds which are more accurate would give.
Method 1:
3.50633/220=0.01593786363
0.86515/0.01593786363= 54.2826830549 Subsonic
Method 2:
0.047/220=0.00021363636
Moving head down speed: 0.12887/0.00021363636= 603.221286863 (Mach 1.7) Supersonic
Moving head to the side speed: 0.074143/0.00021363636= 347.052346333 (Mach 1.01) Supersonic
Considering the calcer also states that method 2 is more reliable and is the most accurate based on the scene that is the one that should be used. Also this same calc was compared to Dr._whiteee's calc (aforementioned one with the 220) in the previous thread with Dr._whiteee's being more reliable.
Method 1:
3.50633/220=0.01593786363
0.86515/0.01593786363= 54.2826830549 Subsonic
Method 2:
0.047/220=0.00021363636
Moving head down speed: 0.12887/0.00021363636= 603.221286863 (Mach 1.7) Supersonic
Moving head to the side speed: 0.074143/0.00021363636= 347.052346333 (Mach 1.01) Supersonic
Considering the calcer also states that method 2 is more reliable and is the most accurate based on the scene that is the one that should be used. Also this same calc was compared to Dr._whiteee's calc (aforementioned one with the 220) in the previous thread with Dr._whiteee's being more reliable.
Outlined before, calc is good besides the Geto blocking distance which, still just ends with subsonic results.This feat is subsonic
Geto Blocks Toji's Bullets
This one is fine.Can just say it's the full length of his arm, regardless it would barely be over twice the speed of the current one
Also
Hanami's Retrosonic Buds
This one is faulty:Uraume Blocks SonicBlood
Problem 1) The calc is using the full distance between between characters when the feat happen much closer as shown in the image of "partial feat"
Problem 2) "Ratio" the pixels between to different panels that would utilize different and perspective is not a accurate way to calculate number/distance, effectively making results inaccurate. Would be like using the same pixel sizes for a far off image on a close up.
Here is a fixed version of the calc.
Jujutsu Kaisen: Uraume Piercing Blood
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 2,338
- 1,833
They escaped the immediate impact. Jogo literally threw it at sukuna and obviosuly none of them are at the impact site. We saw on impact it fragmented buildings meters away so ot’s very likely he’s buried under debris from the blast itself.
- 21,468
- 30,790
I won't tackle everything else cause my job is just to calc the "Supersonic" feats, but here's the ones I have issues with, responses to me and the headass ones
#1 Yuji isn't faster than Piercing Blood, much less 11x faster than Piercing Blood
#2 Your own translation says
This means that Kamo canonically cannot be faster than Naoya, yet there's a calc that says he's faster and you guys are acting like Gege himself made it.
This is like saying curses move at the speed of thought because they're produced from the negative thoughts of others.
Why are you assuming that these authors hold the general concept of scale when it comes to feats,
then you ignore their statements about the characters' speeds?
All yall said is that "calcs can be calcs"
All you did was put a numerical value behind it.
The proportion is saying "as sound moves this much, Uraume moves this much". Deadass if I used the head like you did, it'd make no difference at all.
What is the proof that these bullets move this fast?
No.
#1 Yuji isn't faster than Piercing Blood, much less 11x faster than Piercing Blood
#2 Your own translation says
And now it doesn't get slower?
You guys irritate me with the fact that you can't comprehend that some calcs go against canon.
This means that Kamo canonically cannot be faster than Naoya, yet there's a calc that says he's faster and you guys are acting like Gege himself made it.
Nothing says this moves at the speed of sound. He's not shooting sound, he's shooting cursed energy.
This is like saying curses move at the speed of thought because they're produced from the negative thoughts of others.
She had half a dozen meters to react, so stop saying she reacted at point blank ranges when she watched the attack get fired 6 meters away.
Perception ≠ Reactions. Superseding reaction ≠ Superseding perception
That's a lie because you never see the bullet in comparison to him, and Geto's calc is subsonic, shit was never "relatively close ranges".
The lesser Zenin members calculation is bullshit. We don't do "faster than the reader's eyesight".
No, the ****, they don't.
Why are you assuming that these authors hold the general concept of scale when it comes to feats,
then you ignore their statements about the characters' speeds?
What?
No, it hasn't been.
All yall said is that "calcs can be calcs"
That isn't a problem. That's the full feat.
This is useless
All you did was put a numerical value behind it.
The proportion is saying "as sound moves this much, Uraume moves this much". Deadass if I used the head like you did, it'd make no difference at all.
- 2,338
- 1,833
Why do you keep failing to realize that we are saying the Naoya stuff is inconsistent and, therefore should be disregarded? You can't use that shit as evidence against our claims. This is like the 50th time you've tried to use this circular logic.
Also Idk why you guys keep pointing to subsonic and sonic shit like that helps your argument.
You literally just spent how long going off on "You can be slower then a bullet and still react! Look! Getou is only subsonic because he reacted from 4 meters away!"
Yet you think Maki being being blitzed by mach 3 from hundreds of meters away means that subsonic feats from mid and high tiers somehow makes sense?
You're literally arguing against your own scaling. If you believe Naoya's sound statements to be legit then literally no one outside of Noaya and god tiers are even remotely at the sonic level.
Also Idk why you guys keep pointing to subsonic and sonic shit like that helps your argument.
You literally just spent how long going off on "You can be slower then a bullet and still react! Look! Getou is only subsonic because he reacted from 4 meters away!"
Yet you think Maki being being blitzed by mach 3 from hundreds of meters away means that subsonic feats from mid and high tiers somehow makes sense?
You're literally arguing against your own scaling. If you believe Naoya's sound statements to be legit then literally no one outside of Noaya and god tiers are even remotely at the sonic level.
- 21,468
- 30,790
You didn't even read the damn argument.
Not once did I say anything about Naoya and sound.
I said KAMO CANNOT BE FASTER THAN NAOYA.
Read the argument and stop nitpicking one word replies
- 2,338
- 1,833
Missing the point.
Kamo who is <<< Maki should not even be able to react to Naoya, let alone actually react to him as he's done multiple times in this fight. Nothing necessitates that Kamo can't have reaction speed around Naoya given the projections sorcery is about movement speed and we clearly see him react to Naoya.
So your own scaling and the feats you are trying to use are not internally consistent with themselves.
This shows you just how inconsistent is Gege is within the chapters themselves.
- 21,468
- 30,790
Do I care about reaction speed? No. I never said I did.
The calculation has Kamo MOVING FASTER THAN NAOYA.
Stop talking about reactions.
- 21,468
- 30,790
Oh yeah
vsbattles.fandom.com
This is wrong as shit
This isn't hypersonic reactions, since she had 6 meters to react to this attack. Shit is quite literally subsonic reactions
Jujutsu Kaisen: Uraume Piercing Blood
vsbattles.fandom.com
This is wrong as shit
This isn't hypersonic reactions, since she had 6 meters to react to this attack. Shit is quite literally subsonic reactions
- 2,338
- 1,833
"Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed."
- 21,468
- 30,790
oh my god
yall just don't know how to independently scale
When you are calculating somebody BLOCKING, that is combat speed. Reaction speed is like a small head motion for looking at an attack, not BLOCKING.
- 2,338
- 1,833
No, you are literally wrong. You have to string multiple reactionary movements together to qualify as combat speed. Moving your ******* head and bringing your hand up to block are both movements and what we consider reactions. Stop being dense.
- 21,468
- 30,790
When has BLOCKING WITH FULL BODY HAND MOTIONS been REACTION SPEED.
How long have you been on this wiki to say that that is reaction speed?
- 21,468
- 30,790
Nevermind
Apparently this is now reaction speed
Apparently this is now reaction speed
- 21,468
- 30,790
So regardless Kamo is faster than Naoya
- 5,658
- 4,892
i thought i explained kamo
the calc leads off a false premise
Maki is saying the last time she fought Naoya, his max acceleration was faster than sound. We dont know what speed Naota punched Kano at.
the calc leads off a false premise
Maki is saying the last time she fought Naoya, his max acceleration was faster than sound. We dont know what speed Naota punched Kano at.
- 21,468
- 30,790
Anyways, Kamo can't be faster than Naoya
While looking at a slower Naoya, it blitzed both Maki and Kamo's reactions, with him exclaiming that he couldn't even see anything.
After Naoya repeatedly blitzes Maki and she says he's "so fast".
Only reason why Kamo keeps up for as long as he does is because he can sense him.
Naoya calls Kamo's arrows too slow.
Kamo later says that even before he fully transformed, as a cursed womb he was already super fast.
Kamo has no reason to scale to Naoya, and all of his feats of superior reaction to his noticeable speed should be marked as outliers.
While looking at a slower Naoya, it blitzed both Maki and Kamo's reactions, with him exclaiming that he couldn't even see anything.
After Naoya repeatedly blitzes Maki and she says he's "so fast".
Only reason why Kamo keeps up for as long as he does is because he can sense him.
Naoya calls Kamo's arrows too slow.
Kamo later says that even before he fully transformed, as a cursed womb he was already super fast.
Kamo has no reason to scale to Naoya, and all of his feats of superior reaction to his noticeable speed should be marked as outliers.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
You're failing to recognize Uraume's hands already being up when the panel of piercing blood is in front of him meaning he had already moved his hands to defend prior to that panel.
I am going to show you how the scene plays out
Choso then finishes Piercing Blood, which took long enough for Kamo to say two words
Uraume has had at least a second or two to properly put his hands up and prepare for such an attack.
So using the distance of his hands to piercing blood's tip is just wrong for him blocking when we already see his hands in panel in motion of blocking, he would have started raising his hands to block prior to the panel which invalidates the use of closer distance.
The calcs tie into combat speed as the characters move their arms to block and punch and react to one another in combat, IDK why the feat being reaction matters if it ends up being incorporated into combat speed.
- 2,338
- 1,833
Naoya was able to do much better casually against Maki in his cursed spirit form compared to when he was alive (and not at max speed). Which would place him around sonic speed given that Maki states he had been approaching said speeds before even powering up to his max IIRC.i thought i explained kamo
the calc leads off a false premise
Maki is saying the last time she fought Naoya, his max acceleration was faster than sound. We dont know what speed Naota punched Kano at.
- 5,658
- 4,892
thats an assumption
naoya's speed depends entirely on acceleration, as it varies on that factor
the dialogue in 193 suggests he hadnt hit speed of sound or faster acceleration, as maki hypothesizes that would be the speed he was going to bull rush them at (she was wrong because he included the binding vow that let him hit mach 3)
When he punches kamo prior, there isnt any shown acceleration, nor a sonic boom (human naoya made a sonic boom when hitting top speed form accelerating for a while)
naoya's speed depends entirely on acceleration, as it varies on that factor
the dialogue in 193 suggests he hadnt hit speed of sound or faster acceleration, as maki hypothesizes that would be the speed he was going to bull rush them at (she was wrong because he included the binding vow that let him hit mach 3)
When he punches kamo prior, there isnt any shown acceleration, nor a sonic boom (human naoya made a sonic boom when hitting top speed form accelerating for a while)
- 2,430
- 1,163
Determined in the previous thread which is linked in the other feat, this was made prior to it and so as mentioned even using the new numbers gets supersonic results.
Great job!! Man with words.
Him displaying this feat says otherwise and regardless of that point Yuji is still reacting to it point blank.
To repeat what is written "The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case". The idea is that the beam attack is the fast aspect while the slashing aspect after is the slower part, not that decreases in speed, Yuji regards the beam the "initially fast" part. With the attack being stated to surpass sound and no other mention of its slowing down feature, coupled with the fact in got faster after being fired at Uraume suggest this idea to hold merit. Even so, assuming drastic decreases still result in reaction speeds contradicting mach scaling.
THAT IS WHAT IS CALLED AN INCONSISTENCY!!! characters doing things that they are supposedly not able to, it's almost like this entire argument is about, wow. Gege drew that shit, obviously they made it.
The attack is produced through a method of playing a guitar that, a device that plays sound, the attack is referred to as sound, and Juzo uses words such as amplifier in regards to sounds capabilities. Sound attack = speed of sound
This is a false equivalency as it is complete different examples, curses materialize a form but a made of thoughts. Not a good one
They're not half a dozen meters when the attack accelerates past sound. They would from that point be reacting and combating that speed. Not the other way around.
Perception and reaction go hand in hand. To react to something you need to perceive it, only in examples where perception is definitively outline greater than reaction is that they don't scale to each other.
Maki fires a regular sniper bullet -> Kenjaku notices that the bullet is approaching him at closes ranges as he didn't notice it earlier -> Stops in his tracks and creates a shield with a curse. The bullet being in comparison with him.
You do realizes that anything within the subsonic zone is not a good look for the Mach scaling as the characters are allegedly "scared of subsonic speeds" too. The idea of Mach scaling existing would result in everyone being superhuman. Plus that is a relatively close range, just because results.
There's a reason its in the misc. section, which I outlined previously in the last thread or thread before. The feat is allegedly accepted but I have not seen any calc member acceptation. Hence its a misc., a maybe valid. This is my for not making it clearer. although, subsonic is not good.
Because they are the author/artist of the series, they are responsible for the representation of the story and feats in them. They have to take certain concept of scale to accurately portray them. However, when that isn't the case and there are multiple times they don't it creates inconsistencies.
Showings and feats often go hand in hand with one another, but problems arise when one deviates from the other. Due to the fact that feats really depict the events rather than just stating them, they frequently overcome in debates about which to use. It's like having a character be stated to be below light, and them having rel speeds, good. now if you have a character stated below light then have ftl feats or scale to things that are ftl it creates inconsistencies.
Its been outlined that the feat with in the calc is Yuji dodges the attack point blank, resulting in reactions and speeds that are not consistent with the idea of Mach scaling. The calc is showing the value result of the feat.
That is just untrue. The feat is that Uraume responds and deflects an attack that is coming towards him at faster than sound speeds. Your calculation implies it was initially quicker than sound, which is visually incorrect because it accelerating past sound in front of their face (not in the beginning... interesting). Instead of just "ratio-ing" pixels from two distinct panels with very differing sizes, this new calculation employs numerical values to get a more accurate result. It makes advantage of the feat's demonstration. The numerical numbers are used to depict the distance and timeframe. The idea of "as sound moves this much, Uraume moves this much," sound or objects moving at sound speed would travel within the calculated timeframe between the attack and Uraume's hand blocking it. This would require characters to actively react within that timeframe in order to block the attack. Additionally, the attack was visibly demonstrated to be speeding rather than slowing down, which would mean that Uraume's first reactions are not equal to it breaking sound, as they would need to be equivalent to those of an object travelling faster than the speed of sound.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
He SHOULDN'T be faster yet he displays that he is. The problem is you not being able to acknowledge inconsistencies. Kamo blocking should be the case but he does it.
The time frame. the timeframe is the reaction capabilities within a combat feat, every combat feat that has a timeframe requires that those characters react with in it to perform the feats, while usually not the highlight of the calc it is still there. perceiving the events with in a feat is reaction, as mentioned before perception and reaction go hand in hand, without perceiving you won't be able to react, unless specifically outlined perception is greater than reaction.
Always has, its been a part of this debate from the beginnig.
Damn... this man really can't understand a inconsistency. i don't think it warrants repeating after being done so over two threads. smh
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It doesn't fail, it activity recognizes that they are up, as it it using the distance from their position in the panel and not from their sides. As said before, the feat is that Uraume reacts to an attack coming at them faster than sound and blocks it. Instead of commencing at six metres distant, it accelerates quicker than sound directly in front of Uraume's face. Uraume reacting to its speed at the point its been fired and in being faster than sound is not equal, as they would need to be equivalent to those of an object travelling faster than the speed of sound at the time it did. The feat being reaction matters as it traversing the distance between them Uraume, would need reactions as calculated in the hypersonic reactions, otherwise Uraume would not be able to block it.You're failing to recognize Uraume's hands already being up when the panel of piercing blood is in front of him meaning he had already moved his hands to defend prior to that panel.
I am going to show you how the scene plays out
Choso then finishes Piercing Blood, which took long enough for Kamo to say two words
Uraume has had at least a second or two to properly put his hands up and prepare for such an attack.
So using the distance of his hands to piercing blood's tip is just wrong for him blocking when we already see his hands in panel in motion of blocking, he would have started raising his hands to block prior to the panel which invalidates the use of closer distance.
The calcs tie into combat speed as the characters move their arms to block and punch and react to one another in combat, IDK why the feat being reaction matters if it ends up being incorporated into combat speed.
- 21,468
- 30,790
No way your entire argument was "he shouldn't be faster but he is".
That isn't an inconsistency on my part, multiple statements of his speed being ridiculously higher and Kamo flat out getting blitzed means that Naoya is faster.
The few times that Kamo reacted to his slower speed isn't gonna take precedence over the more consistent part, that Naoya is faster than Kamo.
That isn't an inconsistency on my part, multiple statements of his speed being ridiculously higher and Kamo flat out getting blitzed means that Naoya is faster.
The few times that Kamo reacted to his slower speed isn't gonna take precedence over the more consistent part, that Naoya is faster than Kamo.
- 5,658
- 4,892
kamo isnt faster than naoya. The calc is wrong as already explained above.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
Feel like even if we accepted Naoya's speed in base as sos or higher, Kamo's reaction to it would be an outlier as previously the cursed womb form Naoya blitzed Kamo as he couldn't see him, then we get Kamo needing to prepare a counter for sos. So the feat very well is just an outlier as it does not line up with what is portrayed for Kamo.
- 21,468
- 30,790
Since common sense won't prove to you all this and I refuse to be your teacher, I'll ignore all the headassery.
Yuji's hypersonic calc is wrong.
Yuji had all those meters to react. You don't calc reactions by the distance the projectile was when you started to move, you calc reactions by the total distance.
I even tried this here and it got declined.
So remove this calc from the "consistency" list.
Yuji's hypersonic calc is wrong.
Yuji had all those meters to react. You don't calc reactions by the distance the projectile was when you started to move, you calc reactions by the total distance.
I even tried this here and it got declined.
So remove this calc from the "consistency" list.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
Reading this we would basically need to prove the characters were always able to perceive the movement of the projectile right? Seems logical but I feel it ignores the overall feat of reacting to something upclose which is usually how characters are shown to be fast, prime example Minato and Raikage
- 21,468
- 30,790
Not even.
For the calcs to work, you would calc the distance when they started looking at the projectile. From there on, that's where you get perception speed.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
I'm confused, so when they started looking at the projectile, when it's closer up is what u mean?
- 21,468
- 30,790
No, when it's fired and they watched it get fired.
AKA, when Yuji watches Piercing Blood leave Choso's hands
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
What about the distance between them when it's closer? Doesn't something being closer make the feat greater?
- 21,468
- 30,790
No, because I tried it.
Yuji first started looking at it when it left Choso's hands. He fully perceived it when it got close, and then he started to move.
But he's been looking at it since it was at Choso's hands, so the distance used would be the distance between Yuji and Choso, not Yuji and the Piercing Blood after it's a few cm away from his face
- 2,430
- 1,163
Not true. Its talking about the cursed womb Naoya. VIZ leaves out mentioning him as a cursed womb, as seen in the other translation mentions it as well as the raws.i thought i explained kamo
the calc leads off a false premise
Maki is saying the last time she fought Naoya, his max acceleration was faster than sound. We dont know what speed Naota punched Kano at.
Raws (copied of google translate): ようたい幼体で音速超えてたろそれ以上ってことだれんぞくこいじょ
google translates: It's a young body and it's faster than the speed of sound.
DeepL: I mean, you've already exceeded the speed of sound in your body as a juvenile, so what's to say you won't go faster than that, you know?
ImTranslator: It ’s a young body and it exceeded the speed of sound.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,847
- 7,738
Oh so this is for perception speed but not for movement speed yeah? Like Yuji's perception is able to see it leave choso's hand but his movement speed?
W. Guess my assumption of curse naoya was right.
- Status
Similar threads
