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Jujutsu Kaisen - Scale

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Nelliels said:
Nobody actually scales to a fp hanami except for Todo and Yuji. It's stated by herself that she has to try a little bit harder against them. It's also shown she just outclasses second grades and that she can one shot them. So no there's no problem.
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Others scale to Hanami's durability. Whether they can beat Hanami with two arms and full use of abilities is an other topic.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
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Wait, is it still being discussed about Hanami's durability? I thought it had been resolved

God, there's no end to this...
 
It is resolved. Hanami > Jogo Durability.
And there are various characters that scale.

Kamo using Flowing Red Scale and Piercing Blood
Maki using Playful Cloud
Megumi using Divine Dog: Totality
Yuji
Todo

Before that
Maki did not scale with Miwa's Sword the sword also broke
Megumi also did not scale using his sword on Hanami's leg
Also Maki with Megumi's Sword did not scale, Hanami tanks the blow to the arm

However Hanami's weakpoint is the eye branches.
Megumi with sword could damage Hanami's eye-branches

ALSO
I noticed a difference between the manga and anime.
In the Manga when Maki uses the playful cloud on Hanami, there is a chunk missing from the contacted arm.
However in the anime there is none. Instead this damage occurs when Megumi's Dog attacks.

So if I were to make a Scaling chain with just this.

Maki with Miwa Sword (AP)
-
Hanami Eye-Branch (Dura)
-
Maki with Megumi Sword (AP)
Megumi with Sword (AP)
-
Hanami Body (Dura)
-
Kamo using Flowing Red Scale and Piercing Blood (AP)
Maki using Playful Cloud (AP)
Megumi using Divine Dog: Totality (AP)
Yuji (AP)
Todo (AP)
 
We have an unequivocal statement from the author that Hanami is super tough compared to Jogo. No need to compare fanon and fan theories, since a canon answer is provided.

Also Panda managed to harm Aoi, which means that Panda and Mechamaru are in the talk too.
0017-022.png
0017-023.png
 
RageComment said:
The people who say "at most" are just wrong.
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Extremely elaborate ratiocination.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
We have an unequivocal statement from the author that Hanami is super tough compared to Jogo. No need to compare fanon and fan theories, since a canon answer is provided.

Also Panda managed to harm Aoi, which means that Panda and Mechamaru are in the talk too.
0017-022.png
0017-023.png
Click to expand...
I know. I wrote this in the blog.
 
I still don't really understand why we don't use "At most". That would make life so much easier and still be consistent...
 
This would be very inaccurate; it implies that Hanami is inferior in durability to Jogo, but it can be argued that Hanami durability around Jogo's level of durability without exceeding him in toughness. But this is false as we know that Hanami is significantly tougher than Jogo (though landing a direct hit on Jogo can be difficult due to AoE attacks).
If you want to say that Hanami's duraility is inconsistent and varies, then it would be: Varies between High 7-C and 7-A, but there is no evidence that Hanami's durability is inconsistent and varies to this extent, and would still contradict the author's statement.
 
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ShadowWhoWalks said:
but there is no evidence that Hanami's durability is inconsistent and varies to this extent, and would still contradict the author's statement.
Click to expand...
I have shown my evidence and I really don't want to repeat it. For now I will just wait for something new in the discussion, because this style of debate is a "never ending cycle".
 
Having read through that you didn't make any good points. You didn't show the interviews that say Jogo is stronger and you're ignoring WoG saying Hanami is tougher because it upsets your scale even though WoG and what the series show clearly trump fan head canon
 
Scanned for the statements that can work as justification from the stated pages:

it has also been stated that Jogo is much stronger than Hanami
Mh. I think it is possible to consider Jogo's physique as Large Town only. Although well, this scan just say it is less durable
Hanami is not usually more durable than Jogo, it is only at most. If we consider that he is normally more durable than Jogo, he would also be stronger in terms of AP, which is false. I explained this in the blog
I'll look for some later. But there is also the option of using the Jujutsu scale. Dagon able to fight Naobito, Maki and Nanami simultaneously. Hanami almost loses in a fight against Todo and Itadori, then it is considerable that Dagon True Form is stronger than Hanami. So if a anyone is strongest than the Dagon is strongest than the Hanami
I know. But again, if we do this the scale will become a clutter and contradictory, and all of this can be solved simply by adding a "At most" in the profile. The wiki make the same thing in the Kimetsu
Actually If you consider that Hanami has a higher durability than Jogo in every time you will destroy the scale, not me

We can summarize the arguments as such:

  1. It has been stated that Jogo is much stronger than Hanami
  2. Dagon in his Domain gave a better fight than Hanami did against Yuji & Aoi
  3. (?) Jogo being less durable than Hanami doesn't mean that he doesn't exceed him in durability tier (?)
  4. If we don't give Hanami "At most" and say that his durability is inconsistent, then the scale will be cluttery and contradictory, and there will be lots of unspecific tiers

To answer:
1) The only statement provided thus far is that Jogo is TECHNICALLY stronger than Hanami due to ELEMENT TYPE MATCH UP. So it is a case of Fire > Plants. It remains concrete than Hanami is super tough compared to Jogo. If you have statements that Jogo "is much stronger than Hanami" then please provide them or link to them.

2) Before Dagon activated his Domain, he got solo'd and stomped by Naobito. When he activated his Domain Expansion, he dominated due to the guaranteed hit being hax and his opponents not having their own Domain Expansion as a counter. If Hanami activated his Domain Expansion like he was going to before Gojo showed up, he would've stomped Yuji and Aoi who stalemated him due to Aoi's teleportation making the duo very hard to hit. And even if we say that Dagon had more powerful attacks compared to Hanami, this doesn't change that Hanami's durability is superior to Jogo.

3) This argument is incoherent, and I believe Life Of King misspoke, so I'll skip it.

4) Can you provide justification for why alternative scales would be cluttery and contradictory? Heck the current scale is already contradictory due to Hanami, shouldn't we at least attempt to make a scale with no contradiction? Let's say we don't scale to Domain Expansions, and Jogo's durability and AP is downgraded to Hanami's tier, why would there be clutter and contradiction?
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Scanned for the statements that can work as justification from the stated pages:

it has also been stated that Jogo is much stronger than Hanami
Mh. I think it is possible to consider Jogo's physique as Large Town only. Although well, this scan just say it is less durable
Hanami is not usually more durable than Jogo, it is only at most. If we consider that he is normally more durable than Jogo, he would also be stronger in terms of AP, which is false. I explained this in the blog
I'll look for some later. But there is also the option of using the Jujutsu scale. Dagon able to fight Naobito, Maki and Nanami simultaneously. Hanami almost loses in a fight against Todo and Itadori, then it is considerable that Dagon True Form is stronger than Hanami. So if a anyone is strongest than the Dagon is strongest than the Hanami
I know. But again, if we do this the scale will become a clutter and contradictory, and all of this can be solved simply by adding a "At most" in the profile. The wiki make the same thing in the Kimetsu
Actually If you consider that Hanami has a higher durability than Jogo in every time you will destroy the scale, not me

We can summarize the arguments as such:

  1. It has been stated that Jogo is much stronger than Hanami
  2. Dagon in his Domain gave a better fight than Hanami did against Yuji & Aoi
  3. (?) Jogo being less durable than Hanami doesn't mean that he doesn't exceed him in durability tier (?)
  4. If we don't give Hanami "At most" and say that his durability is inconsistent, then the scale will be cluttery and contradictory, and there will be lots of unspecific tiers

To answer:
1) The only statement provided thus far is that Jogo is TECHNICALLY stronger than Hanami due to ELEMENT TYPE MATCH UP. So it is a case of Fire > Plants. It remains concrete than Hanami is super tough compared to Jogo. If you have statements that Jogo "is much stronger than Hanami" then please provide them or link to them.

2) Before Dagon activated his Domain, he got solo'd and stomped by Naobito. When he activated his Domain Expansion, he dominated due to the guaranteed hit being hax and his opponents not having their own Domain Expansion as a counter. If Hanami activated his Domain Expansion like he was going to before Gojo showed up, he would've stomped Yuji and Aoi who stalemated him due to Aoi's teleportation making the duo very hard to hit. And even if we say that Dagon had more powerful attacks compared to Hanami, this doesn't change that Hanami's durability is superior to Jogo.

3) This argument is incoherent, and I believe Life Of King misspoke, so I'll skip it.

4) Can you provide justification for why alternative scales would be cluttery and contradictory? Heck the current scale is already contradictory due to Hanami, shouldn't we at least attempt to make a scale with no contradiction? Let's say we don't scale to Domain Expansions, and Jogo's durability and AP is downgraded to Hanami's tier, why would there be clutter and contradiction?
Click to expand...
And now I'm going to school. I'll read it later
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Can you provide justification for why alternative scales would be cluttery and contradictory? Heck the current scale is already contradictory due to Hanami, shouldn't we at least attempt to make a scale with no contradiction? Let's say we don't scale to Domain Expansions, and Jogo's durability and AP is downgraded to Hanami's tier, why would there be clutter and contradiction?
Click to expand...
At the rate we’re going at it’s probably the best choice

Jogo can be Low 7-B have his domain be large mountain level for example
Absolutely no one has the right to scale except for MAYBE Special Grade Shamans Like Geto(For not viewing the loss of Jogo as too big of a loss)
That might still be iffy
 
Jackof_noTrades068 said:
Jogo can be Low 7-B have his domain be large mountain level for example
Absolutely no one has the right to scale except for MAYBE Special Grade Shamans Like Geto(For not viewing the loss of Jogo as too big of a loss)
That might still be iffy
Click to expand...
I've already said this I don't see why people on both sides are still arguing these points and going back and forth when this is the simple solution
 
Dalesean027 said:
Only Jogo's maximum technique and Domain expansion should be mountain level (his Maximum Meteor because it's stated by Kamo that apart from Domain Expansions Maximum technique's are cursed techniques most supreme arts)

Any one of the god tiers who're Supreme grade sorcerer's and 15 finger Sukuna should scale though I believe should indeed keep their AP and Dura tiers of Mountain level since they actually undoubtedly scale far above anything else the lower tiers can do even their domains and Maximum Techniques.
Click to expand...
This is what I said yesterday and whether or not you agree maximum techniques can scale this high despite Kamo comparing them to domains as the pinnacle of cursed techniques is one thing and I'm fine dropping it though they should definitely scale far above normal Techniques but other than that when it comes to supreme grades and Sukuna they should absolutely be mountain level
 
Jackof_noTrades068 said:
Jogo can be Low 7-B have his domain be large mountain level for example
Absolutely no one has the right to scale except for MAYBE Special Grade Shamans
Click to expand...
This is literally how you solve this and keep things consistent so once again I'm saying we should stick to this. It doesn't invalidate the already reviewed and accepted calc's and feats and it doesn't completely break the scaling chain thus making it possible to correlate with the narrative presented
 
While I don't mind Jogo being Low 7-B
What is the justification for this?

Also is someone going to recalculate the Finger Bearer cave thing?
To be honest I don't really care for it as a usable feat, because of how it differs in the manga/anima and because of the angles involved and the fact that shadow liquid may not have the same values as water vaporization.
 
RageComment said:
While I don't mind Jogo being Low 7-B
What is the justification for this?

Also is someone going to recalculate the Finger Bearer cave thing?
To be honest I don't really care for it as a usable feat, because of how it differs in the manga/anima and because of the angles involved and the fact that shadow liquid may not have the same values as water vaporization.
Click to expand...
Justification is heavily downscaling from Maximum Meteor Which is Low 7-B+

And if Finger bearers feat gets recalculated and is still in the 7-C ish range we can alow use

Finger Bearer<<<<Dagon<<Jogo for justifying
 
This would have ended long ago if people didn't try to inflate stuff.

If people don't want stuff to keep popping up all the time like with Bleach on here, it's best to just do everything correctly.

JJK is already gaining popularity at a fast pace so sooner rather than later, there'll be more people going through things on here and before you know it, holes will be poked in some of these weak justifications, it ends up being a Bleach situation all over again.

Everyone here should already know the difference between cursed techniques and cursed energy yet this is blatantly being ignored to scale AP with techniques, AP with raw cursed energy & Defence with raw cursed energy. Obviously none of these things are the same level even for the same sorcerer.

Everyone should know this by now. This Jogo & Hanami thing shouldn't even be a debate if people didn't try to conflate Jogo's AP with cursed techniques to his Defence which only uses raw cursed energy.
 
So basically god tiers are mountain lvl scaling off jogo and dagon, Jogo is only city lvl with meteor and physically town lvl scaling far above finger bearer or mechamaru?
 
I am sorry, but what is the evidence that Sukuna, or any other character, scales to the size of a weaker person's Domain?
Jogo tried to tag Sukuna with the meteor as an AoE attack (since his goal was to land a single hit per Sukuna's challenge, not kill him), and after Sukuna dodged he said that the meteor would've hurt him if it hit.

Yuta is considered god tier but he is physically comparable to Yuji:
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0141-011.png
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Yuta is considered god tier but he is physically comparable to Yuji:
Click to expand...
Taking this fight completely out of context since we know Yuta literally isn't actually trying to harm or kill Itadori let alone take him seriously. And Even if Yuta is physically weaker than Yuji he far surpasses him in Cursed Energy and can be far more durable and potent in attack than Yuji.
 
He was trying to kill (and then heal/revive) Yuji, and he wasn't interested in a 'prolonged fight' or a 'fair fight' since he was fully expecting to blitz Yuji in the beginning with his speed.
Not saying that Yuta was going all-out; that would require using Rika. Only that Yuta is physically comparable to Yuji. Hence he couldn't prevent his sword from getting broken and stated that stabbing Yuji in a physical fight isn't easy.
 
Itadori didn't think he could beat Yuta, he just broke his sword to make it easier

Rika also didn't stop Itadori so that he wouldn't hit Yuta, it was just for him to kill Itadori faster and stop playing around.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
I am sorry, but what is the evidence that Sukuna, or any other character, scales to the size of a weaker person's Domain?
Jogo tried to tag Sukuna with the meteor as an AoE attack (since his goal was to land a single hit per Sukuna's challenge, not kill him), and after Sukuna dodged he said that the meteor would've hurt him if it hit.

Yuta is considered god tier but he is physically comparable to Yuji:
0141-004.png
0141-005.png
0141-006.png
0141-008.png
0141-010.png
0141-011.png
Click to expand...
On the scaling Special grades to domains thats why I said maybe
If they had to be scaled to it the logic would be that they should have immensely more cursed energy than Jogo, especially Yuta whom OG Geto could've beaten with all his curses. In the case of Gojo because of how Six eyes reduces energy expenditure so much, in theory even if his cursed energy was equal with Jogo hed be able to actually use High 7-A attacks and not run out
Worst case scenario we can consider this a "possibly"
Example: Yuta, At Least Low 7-B+, Possibly High 7-A

Yuta was not going all out, Yuji thought one serious hit from Yuta would kill him. Yuta is also extremely apathetic that entire encounter as well and barely looked like he was trying that hard vs Yuji.
Only thing in Yuji's favor is that it was implied he held back too because he didn't know if he should just let himself die but he definitely was trying vs Yuta

And while Yuta was trying to kill him he attempted to do so in a manner he could heal the easier it seems otherwise why stab Yuji in the chest when he could cut his head off, he practiced restraint.

If Yuji actually did scale directly it would be odd, since a younger less experienced Yuta defeated Geto yet when Choso(scaled to Yuji during Shibuya) fought Kamo in Geto's body in h2h he was getting stomped and Kamo was barely trying.
Yuji getting that massive of an amp would be insanely strange.
 
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Jackof_noTrades068 said:
Example: Yuta, At Least Low 7-B+, Possibly High 7-A
Click to expand...
I think only "Likely High 7-A" is the best option. It makes no sense to consider Jogo's Domain Expansion the strongest thing in the verse. Besides the fact that Gojo and Yutra are considered people with "infinite" cursed energy and can use the energy equally throughout the body

Jogo is not even considered to possess much cursed energy
 
Cyberblader90 said:
0143-013.png


It was also stated Itadori held back
Click to expand...
I already mentioned that, the form of holding back that is implied here to me sounds more like doings things like
Not going for easy hits he could've landed or hesitating
Not weakening himself by reducing his cursed energy output as he clearly is trying hard at several points and finds himself pinned into a corner vs Yuta making him rather want to avoid him
 
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