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Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

Arkenis said:
Yeah? Kusakabe improved reinforcement not output, and the Sukuna thing is against a Sukuna who is uninterested in Kusakabe, making his ce levels drop more. Forget the fact Kusakabe has zero feats without his simple domain in this arc.
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reinforcement is how much you're amplifying your body with CE, so Kusakabe's sword swings would be included. Reinforcement isn't exclusive to output.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Mei Mei compares Yuji to Kuskabe as well in Shibuya. And he blocks an Uzumaki from Kenjaku, that's a pretty good feat
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That was for how good of a sorcerer he was, Yuji fought a Semi Grade 1 curse during that as well. And again Reinforcement and Output just aren't equal and Kusakabe never shows this even then.

Duedate8898 said:
Ryu is a great case for output and reinforcement being related as Sukuna notes how Yuta and Yuji aren't tougher than him. Ryu has the greatest output of all the culling games players, that's his most notable feature.

And reinforcement is a form of output it's just not an offensive use of it
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I think though, that reinforcement is overall higher for most sorcerers. I'm mostly just taking issue with the idea output and reinforcement are relative when they don't seem to be. Ryu tanking dismantle yet GB isn't strong enough to harm Yuta like dismantle did to Ryu, or the fact Yuji and Yuta reinforcement is below Ryu's and their output is below their reinforcement.

Do ya think Yuji is hitting hard as Ryu?
 
Rosa said:
reinforcement is how much you're amplifying your body with CE, so Kusakabe's sword swings would be included. Reinforcement isn't exclusive to output.
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But it clearly is used like that? They talk about reinforcement as defense, not offense. Would you say Yuji's output is now equal to Yuta's?
 
Arkenis said:
But it clearly is used like that? They talk about reinforcement as defense, not offense. Would you say Yuji's output is now equal to Yuta's?
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when has reinforcement ever been used in a way that's excluding one's offensive ability? Reinforcement doesn't exclude output, nor is it equal to output, reinforcement is, as the word implies, your REINFORCEMENT of one's body with CE, output is the more generalised notion of how much CE you can put into something at any given point.
 
Rosa said:
when has reinforcement ever been used in a way that's excluding one's offensive ability? Reinforcement doesn't exclude output, nor is it equal to output, reinforcement is, as the word implies, your REINFORCEMENT of one's body with CE, output is the more generalised notion of how much CE you can put into something at any given point.
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When Yuta's body is reinforced by his curse energy and Ryu says its like punching a water tank. I guess though Yuji does relate power to reinforcement when talking about Yuta doing it, but these examples just seem out of place. You would agree though output is more about how strong one's strikes or ct is?
 
Arkenis said:
That was for how good of a sorcerer he was, Yuji fought a Semi Grade 1 curse during that as well. And again Reinforcement and Output just aren't equal and Kusakabe never shows this even then.
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How good a sorcerer you are also includes your strength and durability, and Yuji distinctly lacks anything but his strength, durability and tactical mine at this moment. And as Kusakabe only has Simple Domain over Yuji at this point, I don't see why it wouldn't be logic to say that Mei Mei is putting their general abilities against one another.

Besides that Kusakabe just gets a better feat in being able to block a maximum techinque. And while reinforcment and output might not be equal, they're clearly comparable judging by the likes of Ryu. Because if his output far outstretched his reinforcment, he wouldn't be able to tank a hit from himself and if his output was far below his reinforcement, he wouldn't be able to hurt himself.

Arkenis said:
I think though, that reinforcement is overall higher for most sorcerers. I'm mostly just taking issue with the idea output and reinforcement are relative when they don't seem to be. Ryu tanking dismantle yet GB isn't strong enough to harm Yuta like dismantle did to Ryu, or the fact Yuji and Yuta reinforcement is below Ryu's and their output is below their reinforcement.

Do ya think Yuji is hitting hard as Ryu?
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Before his awakening, no. But he's comparable to Ryu by the sheer fact that Yuji is able to fight alongside Yuta and draw blood the same as him.
 
Duedate8898 said:
How good a sorcerer you are also includes your strength and durability, and Yuji distinctly lacks anything but his strength, durability and tactical mine at this moment. And as Kusakabe only has Simple Domain over Yuji at this point, I don't see why it wouldn't be logic to say that Mei Mei is putting their general abilities against one another.
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Well because Kusakabe's ranking comes from his knowledge and versatility as a sorcerer not his strength and durability.

Duedate8898 said:
Besides that Kusakabe just gets a better feat in being able to block a maximum techinque. And while reinforcment and output might not be equal, they're clearly comparable judging by the likes of Ryu. Because if his output far outstretched his reinforcment, he wouldn't be able to tank a hit from himself and if his output was far below his reinforcement, he wouldn't be able to hurt himself.
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Idk, output is the ce they release when attacking rather than the energy inside them to reinforce themselves. I think its more a mechanic thing and the fact its their own ce that makes it not hurt them rather than they just scale to their own strikes due to that.

Duedate8898 said:
Before his awakening, no. But he's comparable to Ryu by the sheer fact that Yuji is able to fight alongside Yuta and draw blood the same as him.
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Maybe? But lets be real, Yuji overall didn't draw blood from his punches, that shows Yuji's output is far below his reinforcement of his body than relative.
 
Arkenis said:
Well because Kusakabe's ranking comes from his knowledge and versatility as a sorcerer not his strength and durability.
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His strength and durability are absolutely a factor though, Grade 1s are expected to eliminate special grade curses. Him lacking in strength or durability would absoultely bar him from such a status, especially when he doesn't even have a curse techinque.
Arkenis said:
Idk, output is the ce they release when attacking rather than the energy inside them to reinforce themselves. I think its more a mechanic thing and the fact its their own ce that makes it not hurt them rather than they just scale to their own strikes due to that.
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Output isn't just for attacks though.
Arkenis said:
Maybe? But lets be real, Yuji overall didn't draw blood from his punches, that shows Yuji's output is far below his reinforcement of his body than relative.
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Chapter 251, as soon as Yuji lands a direct hit he draws blood. He even bruises Sukuna's face with a knee. He wasn't drawing blood beforehand, because he was just getting blocked all the other times.
 
Duedate8898 said:
His strength and durability are absolutely a factor though, Grade 1s are expected to eliminate special grade curses. Him lacking in strength or durability would absoultely bar him from such a status, especially when he doesn't even have a curse techinque.
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Special Grade curses aren't powerful in the series generally speaking. We know second grades and semi first grades sorcerers are able to defeat them, one doesn't need good strength for them, specially when the sorcerer has a simple domain that boosts his output and decreases ct. And Mei Mei, Nanami and Gojo are clear Kusakabe's ability to win fights is sheerly from his knowledge and his simple domain, not his strength or durability.

Duedate8898 said:
Output isn't just for attacks though.
Click to expand...
Generally speaking it is. Almost every time output is mentioned, its talking about power.

Duedate8898 said:
Chapter 251, as soon as Yuji lands a direct hit he draws blood. He even bruises Sukuna's face with a knee. He wasn't drawing blood beforehand, because he was just getting blocked all the other times.
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Harming someone when they aren't blocking isn't a good feat. Kinda par for the course when your opponents getting jumped.
 
Arkenis said:
When Yuta's body is reinforced by his curse energy and Ryu says its like punching a water tank. I guess though Yuji does relate power to reinforcement when talking about Yuta doing it, but these examples just seem out of place. You would agree though output is more about how strong one's strikes or ct is?
Click to expand...
yea output is definitely a bigger factor for CT, idk about strikes. Yuta's reinforcement making him durable doesn't mean it's exclusively about defence, especially when you just named an example where it's not the case.
 
Arkenis said:
Special Grade curses aren't powerful in the series generally speaking. We know second grades and semi first grades sorcerers are able to defeat them, one doesn't need good strength for them, specially when the sorcerer has a simple domain that boosts his output and decreases ct. And Mei Mei, Nanami and Gojo are clear Kusakabe's ability to win fights is sheerly from his knowledge and his simple domain, not his strength or durability.
Click to expand...
Semi-Grade 1 sneak
 
Arkenis said:
Special Grade curses aren't powerful in the series generally speaking. We know second grades and semi first grades sorcerers are able to defeat them, one doesn't need good strength for them, specially when the sorcerer has a simple domain that boosts his output and decreases ct. And Mei Mei, Nanami and Gojo are clear Kusakabe's ability to win fights is sheerly from his knowledge and his simple domain, not his strength or durability.
Click to expand...
What? What do you mean Special Grade curses aren't powerful in the series generally speaking? The weakest special grade curses we encounter are finger bearer's, and a grade 2 sorcerer like Megumi was unable to do anything against it. They're special grade explicitly for their strength, there's no special grade cursed spirit who isn't a physical threat we ever bear witness to in the series. And when the others are complimenting Kusakabe, yes Mei Mei mentions they're stronger, but Nanami also says he can't imagine anyone who can withstand the onslaught of attacks from Kusakabe in his simple domain (which would rely on his strength).

Or I don't know, when Kusakabe proceeds to asssault sukuna with a barrage of attacks (a sukuna who just hit a black flash) and draws blood. If he wasn't someone with significant strength he wouldn't be able to do any of this
Arkenis said:
Generally speaking it is. Almost every time output is mentioned, its talking about power.
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Power in the sense of how much cursed energy goes into something not just for attacks. Such as RCT output or curse techinques in general (which aren't all about attacking, like Utahime's). Reinforcement has to be covered under output because it is a form of output as you're literally releasing energy to coat your body and protect it.
Arkenis said:
Harming someone when they aren't blocking isn't a good feat. Kinda par for the course when your opponents getting jumped.
Click to expand...
It is when you literally use a magical energy to defend yourself that doesn't rely on you blocking. As seen by the likes of Nanami, when dealing with Haruta, or when Todo blocks Mahito's black flash, or when Hakari blocks kashimo's final explosion.
 
Duedate8898 said:
What? What do you mean Special Grade curses aren't powerful in the series generally speaking? The weakest special grade curses we encounter are finger bearer's, and a grade 2 sorcerer like Megumi was unable to do anything against it. They're special grade explicitly for their strength, there's no special grade cursed spirit who isn't a physical threat we ever bear witness to in the series. And when the others are complimenting Kusakabe, yes Mei Mei mentions they're stronger, but Nanami also says he can't imagine anyone who can withstand the onslaught of attacks from Kusakabe in his simple domain (which would rely on his strength).

Or I don't know, when Kusakabe proceeds to asssault sukuna with a barrage of attacks (a sukuna who just hit a black flash) and draws blood. If he wasn't someone with significant strength he wouldn't be able to do any of this

Power in the sense of how much cursed energy goes into something not just for attacks. Such as RCT output or curse techinques in general (which aren't all about attacking, like Utahime's). Reinforcement has to be covered under output because it is a form of output as you're literally releasing energy to coat your body and protect it.

It is when you literally use a magical energy to defend yourself that doesn't rely on you blocking. As seen by the likes of Nanami, when dealing with Haruta, or when Todo blocks Mahito's black flash, or when Hakari blocks kashimo's final explosion.
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Oh shit. I didn't even realize he said second grade sorcerers can defeat special grade curses. Tf?

Not only is that f*cking stupid based on feats alone, it is explicitly stated that a sorcerer must be at least first grade in order to exorcise special grade curses
 
Duedate8898 said:
What? What do you mean Special Grade curses aren't powerful in the series generally speaking? The weakest special grade curses we encounter are finger bearer's, and a grade 2 sorcerer like Megumi was unable to do anything against it. They're special grade explicitly for their strength, there's no special grade cursed spirit who isn't a physical threat we ever bear witness to in the series. And when the others are complimenting Kusakabe, yes Mei Mei mentions they're stronger, but Nanami also says he can't imagine anyone who can withstand the onslaught of attacks from Kusakabe in his simple domain (which would rely on his strength).
Click to expand...
FB aren't the weaker special grades at all. Yeah I'm talking about Kusakabe outside of domain this whole time.

Duedate8898 said:
Power in the sense of how much cursed energy goes into something not just for attacks. Such as RCT output or curse techinques in general (which aren't all about attacking, like Utahime's). Reinforcement has to be covered under output because it is a form of output as you're literally releasing energy to coat your body and protect it.
Click to expand...
It's still power though, and I'm talking about strikes or offensive ct.

Duedate8898 said:
It is when you literally use a magical energy to defend yourself that doesn't rely on you blocking. As seen by the likes of Nanami, when dealing with Haruta, or when Todo blocks Mahito's black flash, or when Hakari blocks kashimo's final explosion.
Click to expand...
What does this have to do with what I said? Todo put all his ce into one point, that is reinforcement, Hakari put moved the ce to the rest of the body to strengthen it, that is reinforcement. If me using blocking was taken as throwing up your arms then my mistake, they block in other ways yeah but Sukuna isn't shown to do that in the instance we're talking about.

Sir_Marvulous said:
Not only is that f*cking stupid based on feats, it is explicitly stated that a sorcerer must be at least first grade in order to exorcise special grade curses
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Okay... idk why you guys single out one thing I say. I said second and semi can, not just a second grade alone.

Ya really tryna complicate this Kusakabe and Nanami thing
 
All this talk yet Kusakabe has almost no striking feats outside of his simple domain amp, and using durability feats to measure his strikes (outside of domain).

Nanami no diffs Haruta who was stomping Nobara, a grade 2 maybe semi grade 1, that's a feat. Then Nanami has statements scaling him to Yuji. That's all though. His page has feats of him using Ratio as ap, we all know the ct weakens the part it hits, someone fix this 😭 please.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Arkenis is still keeps downplaying Yuji? 🤢
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Not downplaying. You just ignore the fact his feats are against a Sukuna who isn't impressed by him and is also having his output lowered, if anything this lessens everyone's feats since Yuji stepped in. Everyone seems to forget this part of the plan and also thinks it makes Yuji op, don't get where this came from.
 
We know that Sukuna in 250 observed that he needed to use Cleave to leave a fatal wound on Yuta and Yuji, like with Ryu, noting that they were approximately as durable as him. If we consider his observation, then at that point he should have been somewhere around the level he was at during the Culling Game. Yuji's subsequent hits weakened him further, as a Cleave to the head in 251 didn't leave a fatal wound on Yuta when it would have prior. Then he gets hit with a held back Jacob's Ladder and wounded by the soul blade. He lands four Black Flashes, which admittedly were counteracted by the beating delivered to him by Yuji.

After this point, Yuji is able to harm Sukuna with normal hits and is capable of drawing blood at times, with his Black Flashes doing heavy damage.

I'm not a fan of scaling with fingers because I find it arbitrary, but I won't contest Yuji being around the level of 10 fingers if the finger scale is in question.
 
Iaakk said:
How much Sukuna fingers is current Yuji's power likely at, and why?
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Current Yuji, probably 13 potentially 16. Sukuna's cursed energy toughened Yuji up with every acquired finger, and since Sukuna left a noticeable stain upon him I imagine Yuji didn't get weaker once Sukuna left his body. Or if he did, he didn't get too much weaker. However, I would argue that Yuji is only around ten or eleven fingers. The training and the potential of the blackflashes stacking in how much they bring out of Yuji, I think pushes him up to a point he might be on the level that Sukuna was when he left his body but that's real iffy.

Not to mention, I think Yuji still struggles with his output so while his CE amount might be good and his efficiency high (at least going off the fact he's been the longest lasting of Sukuna's jumping party and has constantly been using RCT) he's not able to output on that level that pushes him close to a stronger Sukuna. At least not yet.
 
Certainly not 16, as it stands. The last point Sukuna could have conceivably been at the level he was at during the Culling Game is 250, and we can infer from the fact that Cleave is no longer a fatal attack when used on the head for the likes of Yuta that he wasn't at that level anymore from 251 and onward. Moreover, he gets hit with even more attacks that spell misfortune for his strength. Despite all that, however, he is still stronger than an awakened Yuji, who had landed Black Flash eight times

So 10 fingers sounds just about right for Yuji
 
To be fair, people use finger scaling not really often. Seems like there's an unspoken acknowledgement that using the fingers as a unit for powerscaling is kinda wack. So I don't find it a problem
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Funny thing it's not like they would get any scaling because of that. We literally has no scalings for Sukuna fingers.
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Eh, if we really felt like it we could cap the verse at like the mid end of 8-A just multiplying the finger bearers by like 20.
 
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