Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Duedate8898]

So Nobara is over 10x slower than Maki and Yuji? How do you explain her fighting Mahito's clone? Any person halfway decent in a fight knows not to do large windups as that leaves you open and makes it easy to dodge.

I don't need to prove an attack 50x faster than you is a threat since after all bullets exist and the speed difference is even less

First of all, we know that Mahito's clone was actually far weaker than the original. That's communicated clearly to us. Secondly, it's not like the characters are stagnate, this is an entire two arcs and an actual month in universe. People do improve. And when fighting, you're not operating at 100% or always doing exactly what you should be doing. She took a good second to wind up her final blow, we're even shown a good pause in her attacks for this final blow. Not her best move, but you're acting like she can't make mistakes.

And might point wasn't that they aren't threats. My point is that just because it slowers than you that doesn't mean you can't be hit by it. Yuji is only ever hit where his center of mass is located, which is a lot more to move than just his head. Distance in which you have to cover in a given timeframe also affects whether or not you can avoid something. Yuji has a clear hard time reacting to the shots mentally but was showed avoiding them physically. And just like that Maki scene, he does so most clearly right before the shot can hit.

He himself says if he mispredicts then he'll get hit, that was his stipulation. He has to know where its going to hit in order to avoid it. That's why I keep bringing up how he might just not be able to properly perceive it, because he can clearly avoid them when he has an idea on when they're coming even if the shot is very close to him.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

First of all, we know that Mahito's clone was actually far weaker than the original. That's communicated clearly to us. Secondly, it's not like the characters are stagnate, this is an entire two arcs and an actual month in universe. People do improve. And when fighting, you're not operating at 100% or always doing exactly what you should be doing. She took a good second to wind up her final blow, we're even shown a good pause in her attacks for this final blow. Not her best move, but you're acting like she can't make mistakes.

And might point wasn't that they aren't threats. My point is that just because it slowers than you that doesn't mean you can't be hit by it. Yuji is only ever hit where his center of mass is located, which is a lot more to move than just his head. Distance in which you have to cover in a given timeframe also affects whether or not you can avoid something. Yuji has a clear hard time reacting to the shots mentally but was showed avoiding them physically. And just like that Maki scene, he does so most clearly right before the shot can hit.

He himself says if he mispredicts then he'll get hit, that was his stipulation. He has to know where its going to hit in order to avoid it. That's why I keep bringing up how he might just not be able to properly perceive it, because he can clearly avoid them when he has an idea on when they're coming even if the shot is very close to him.

Alright Nobara doesn't scale and is a featless character fair enough.

Yuji clearly stated the attacks were too fast for him even after defending from it like 3 times. Trying to argue Yuji is far faster than the blood makes no sense when he himself contradicts that claim.

Does Yuji have bad eyesight? Why can't he perceive it? He can detect cursed energy, he can see an arrow sized projectile coming so why can't he perceive it?

 

[Duedate8898]

Bad Eyesight has nothing to do with it, this about how fast his brain can properly process what it's seeing. The feats performed by him clearly show himself capable of avoiding the attacks.

His specific issue seems to be that he doesn't know where they're going to land. He specifies that if he guesses wrong he's gonna get hit which is what happens to him.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Oh so Yuji's brain somehow can't process events at the speed of sound? What's with the baseless speculation?

So he's MHS but has trouble with SoS attacks? How does that make sense?

 

[RageComment]

Bad Eyesight has nothing to do with it, this about how fast his brain can properly process what it's seeing. The feats performed by him clearly show himself capable of avoiding the attacks.

His specific issue seems to be that he doesn't know where they're going to land. He specifies that if he guesses wrong he's gonna get hit which is what happens to him.

With the blood attack, he knew ahead of time where it was going to strike. He jumps up off the ground and baits Choso. Choso recognizes he is being baited but shoots anyway as he doesn't have anything to lose from the attack.

Yuuji Dodges at the last minute, but the attack does nick his forehead. Perhaps the reason it takes him so long to start is dodge is perception and recognizing when the attack has been fired. He has to wait until after it is fired else Choso will just reorient his aim.

The interesting thing to note is that the attack does nick Yuuji which lends credence to his earlier statement of having a 50/50 chance at dodging, he isn't massively faster than it. But at the same time he does wait until it is relatively close to him. With these factors that's why I think the Supersonic to Hypersonic range makes more sense based on statements.

Either way I am responding because he doesn't "guess wrong" what happened was all intentional

 

[Arkenis]

The argument that Choso could amp his attack with curse energy makes no sense as it is only possible by cursed energy and it's blatantly said that being amped is what gets it to SoS

We have a whole fight with Yuji struggling with SoS. We have Getou stating conventional weapons are a good choice. We have Nobara getting tagged by a rubber bullet before she can attack. Hanami getting tagged by what should be at most speed of sound Piercing Blood

We then have one hhs speed calc for Maki

Ok the statement is that he can reinforce it with curse energy, not that reinforcing it with curse energy gets it to sos, Also again the whole problem with this is that the statement is "is said to reach the speed of sound" not "can only reach the speed of sound". Now we know in so many verses that amping attacks with more energy can increase the speed or ap and we actually see this with Choso when he says "it wasn't condense enough", meaning that the more condensed it becomes the faster and stronger it is due to the fact that the first time seeing it from choso it has a visible sonic boom yet the fourth time it doesn't due to it being not condensed enough. So yea the speed does depend on curse energy and how condensed it is. Also I really don't think Yuji struggled with it all that much, he figures out a way to trick Choso pretty quick by jumping in the air.

Getou does say that but looking at that statement I doubt Noritoshi Kamo actually thinks he can't dodge bullets so that's just him complimenting their tactics rather than anything else.

Nobara was considered second grade during the goodwill arc and then later on she still can't keep up with Yuji against Eso and then even in shibuya she is considered someone who will just get in Nanami's way so her getting tagged by a rubber bullet early on in the series isn't that surprising. Ok um I read the Nobara getting hit by a bullet and it reallys seems like she's just off guard and I think is fine for her at this point so idk if this really helps to discredit Maki's feat.

Also like I said for the Nanami calc there would need to be a reason for it being an outlier for Maki catching the bullet and I really don't see

 

[Duedate8898]

Oh so Yuji's brain somehow can't process events at the speed of sound? What's with the baseless speculation?

So he's MHS but has trouble with SoS attacks? How does that make sense?

Again perception speed and physical speed can be different, that's not only common in humans but seems to be the exact case being shown in the manga. Yuji is able to avoid the attacks of Choso multiple times, however when caught off guard he normally takes a hit because he didn't realize it was coming and was too close.

So Yuji could simply just not be able to percieve as fast as his body moves.

 

[RageComment]

Ok the statement is that he can reinforce it with curse energy, not that reinforcing it with curse energy gets it to sos, Also again the whole problem with this is that the statement is "is said to reach the speed of sound" not "can only reach the speed of sound". Now we know in so many verses that amping attacks with more energy can increase the speed or ap and we actually see this with Choso when he says "it wasn't condense enough", meaning that the more condensed it becomes the faster and stronger it is due to the fact that the first time seeing it from choso it has a visible sonic boom yet the fourth time it doesn't due to it being not condensed enough. So yea the speed does depend on curse energy and how condensed it is. Also I really don't think Yuji struggled with it all that much, he figures out a way to trick Choso pretty quick by jumping in the air.

Getou does say that but looking at that statement I doubt Noritoshi Kamo actually thinks he can't dodge bullets so that's just him complimenting their tactics rather than anything else.

Nobara was considered second grade during the goodwill arc and then later on she still can't keep up with Yuji against Eso and then even in shibuya she is considered someone who will just get in Nanami's way so her getting tagged by a rubber bullet early on in the series isn't that surprising. Ok um I read the Nobara getting hit by a bullet and it reallys seems like she's just off guard and I think is fine for her at this point so idk if this really helps to discredit Maki's feat.

Also like I said for the Nanami calc there would need to be a reason for it being an outlier for Maki catching the bullet and I really don't see

No this is wrong.

"The Blood, now reinforced with cursed energy, is said to reach the speed of sound" is the quote I have. So while Speed of Sound is may not necessarily be a cause of it being reinforced with cursed energy, it IS already reinforced and Speed of Sound is the top speed given so far with no evidence to say it goes any faster.

I had been ignoring the statement because it is pretty obvious, but you keep repeating it so I feel like I have to address it. This "is said to reach the speed of sound" not "can only reach the speed of sound" distinction you are trying to force is headcanon and not backed by what is on panel.

There is nothing implying he can amp the speed faster.

When he is saying "The compression was off" he is referring to how he failed to deal enough damage to Yuuji NOT to its speed. He says "I rushed it" his attack wasn't as strong as it should have been.

I think your interpretation of the fight is way off and not based in the what occurs on panel.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Ok the statement is that he can reinforce it with curse energy, not that reinforcing it with curse energy gets it to sos, Also again the whole problem with this is that the statement is "is said to reach the speed of sound" not "can only reach the speed of sound". Now we know in so many verses that amping attacks with more energy can increase the speed or ap and we actually see this with Choso when he says "it wasn't condense enough", meaning that the more condensed it becomes the faster and stronger it is due to the fact that the first time seeing it from choso it has a visible sonic boom yet the fourth time it doesn't due to it being not condensed enough. So yea the speed does depend on curse energy and how condensed it is. Also I really don't think Yuji struggled with it all that much, he figures out a way to trick Choso pretty quick by jumping in the air.

Getou does say that but looking at that statement I doubt Noritoshi Kamo actually thinks he can't dodge bullets so that's just him complimenting their tactics rather than anything else.

Nobara was considered second grade during the goodwill arc and then later on she still can't keep up with Yuji against Eso and then even in shibuya she is considered someone who will just get in Nanami's way so her getting tagged by a rubber bullet early on in the series isn't that surprising. Ok um I read the Nobara getting hit by a bullet and it reallys seems like she's just off guard and I think is fine for her at this point so idk if this really helps to discredit Maki's feat.

Also like I said for the Nanami calc there would need to be a reason for it being an outlier for Maki catching the bullet and I really don't see

I am directly quoting: "The blood, now reinforced with cursed energy, is said to reach the speed of sound" If it could go beyond why wouldn't the description have said surpassing rather than reach sound? Convergence, the prerequisite for Piercing Blood literally says the blood is condensed to its limit. Choso can't do more than that unless stated otherwise. Yuji literally says he has a 50/50 chance to dodge it and Choso actively saw what he was doing but decided to do it anyway so no he wasn't tricked.

So he compliments their attacks by saying they're good against sorcerers? Cloud Strife can defend himself from bullets like any First Class soldier but we know these sane soldiers can die to bullets. I'm not even arguing for SoS Getou since he's clearly above Yuji who is around a First Grade Sorcerer like Nanami or perhaps Todo right now.

Nobara getting hit by a bullet traveling 60 m/s (arguably faster) before she can throw a hit is pretty bad unless she scales far below Maki and Yuji which seems to be the case.

Nanami's calc makes no sense as it infers he is faster than Mahito which he blatantly isn't. The only way it works is if it is purely a reaction feat. I highly doubt Akutami would make Maki over 10x the speed of sound then make Yuji and Getou who are faster than her have trouble with SoS and state normal weapons work on them respectively.

 

[Arkenis]

Also can someone calc Yujis dodging the piercing blood?

 

[Duedate8898]

Also can someone calc Yujis dodging the piercing blood?

I asked Usklaveri about it and sent him the scans, just waiting for him to finish it.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Again perception speed and physical speed can be different, that's not only common in humans but seems to be the exact case being shown in the manga. Yuji is able to avoid the attacks of Choso multiple times, however when caught off guard he normally takes a hit because he didn't realize it was coming and was too close.

So Yuji could simply just not be able to percieve as fast as his body moves.

Please prove Yuji's mind is over 100 times slower than his body. What you've claimed is a baseless claim that makes no sense

 

[RageComment]

Ok the statement is that he can reinforce it with curse energy, not that reinforcing it with curse energy gets it to sos, Also again the whole problem with this is that the statement is "is said to reach the speed of sound" not "can only reach the speed of sound". Now we know in so many verses that amping attacks with more energy can increase the speed or ap and we actually see this with Choso when he says "it wasn't condense enough", meaning that the more condensed it becomes the faster and stronger it is due to the fact that the first time seeing it from choso it has a visible sonic boom yet the fourth time it doesn't due to it being not condensed enough. So yea the speed does depend on curse energy and how condensed it is. Also I really don't think Yuji struggled with it all that much, he figures out a way to trick Choso pretty quick by jumping in the air.

Getou does say that but looking at that statement I doubt Noritoshi Kamo actually thinks he can't dodge bullets so that's just him complimenting their tactics rather than anything else.

Nobara was considered second grade during the goodwill arc and then later on she still can't keep up with Yuji against Eso and then even in shibuya she is considered someone who will just get in Nanami's way so her getting tagged by a rubber bullet early on in the series isn't that surprising. Ok um I read the Nobara getting hit by a bullet and it reallys seems like she's just off guard and I think is fine for her at this point so idk if this really helps to discredit Maki's feat.

Also like I said for the Nanami calc there would need to be a reason for it being an outlier for Maki catching the bullet and I really don't see

Also again the issue isn't that the Nanami and Maki feats are outliers, it's that the values arrived from pixel scaling end up being faulty as pixel scaling often is. The Feats are real, what's being disputed is the values the calculations arrive at.

Maki doesn't have to be High Hypersonic to catch a bullet. And there are multiple issues with the Nanami calculation from the assumption of Superhuman Arm Speed, to Subsonic+ Attack Speed, as well as the assumptions of how far Nanami Dodges during the exchange.

Essentially the feat is fine, the calc is bad, and this is backed up by how the verse internally states what speeds are being used.

 

[RageComment]

Please prove Yuji's mind is over 100 times slower than his body. What you've claimed is a baseless claim that makes no sense

To be fair, Yuuji does have great fighting instincts, so I wouldn't be surprised if his body can react faster than his mind. But I wouldn't trust the gap being 100x or something like that.

 

[Arkenis]

No this is wrong.

"The Blood, now reinforced with cursed energy, is said to reach the speed of sound" is the quote I have. So while Speed of Sound is may not necessarily be a cause of it being reinforced with cursed energy, it IS already reinforced and Speed of Sound is the top speed given so far with no evidence to say it goes any faster.

I had been ignoring the statement because it is pretty obvious, but you keep repeating it so I feel like I have to address it. This "is said to reach the speed of sound" not "can only reach the speed of sound" distinction you are trying to force is headcanon and not backed by what is on panel.

There is nothing implying he can amp the speed faster.

When he is saying "The compression was off" he is referring to how he failed to deal enough damage to Yuuji NOT to its speed. He says "I rushed it" his attack wasn't as strong as it should have been.

I think your interpretation of the fight is way off and not based in the what occurs on panel.

Um no I pointed out why it being not condensed enough made it lose it's speed, first time he shoots it out it shows a visible sonic boom yet the fourth time it doesn't, that's a direct showing of a speed decrease lol. We know A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shock waves created whenever an object travels through the air faster than the speed of sound.

 

[Arkenis]

I asked Usklaveri about it and sent him the scans, just waiting for him to finish it.

alright

 

[Duedate8898]

Please prove Yuji's mind is over 100 times slower than his body. What you've claimed is a baseless claim that makes no sense

It's not even 100 times, Yuji can react to the attacks just barely so it would place him at around 50 times like you yourself have been sighting earlier. Not to mention the entire fight helps to prove my point. Yuji clearly avoids an attack right before it hits, yet when up close he was shown to be unable to react in time to the shots.

And once more, we have actual real world backing to the idea of ones physical speed and mental speed being different from one another.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

To be fair, Yuuji does have great fighting instincts, so I wouldn't be surprised if his body can react faster than his mind. But I wouldn't trust the gap being 100x or something like that.

It would be very weird if Yuji apparently couldn't follow Nanami, Mahito or Maki's movements but is stated/shown faster or comparable to them

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

It's not even 100 times, Yuji can react to the attacks just barely so it would place him at around 50 times like you yourself have been sighting earlier. Not to mention the entire fight helps to prove my point. Yuji clearly avoids an attack right before it hits, yet when up close he was shown to be unable to react in time to the shots.

And once more, we have actual real world backing to the idea of ones physical speed and mental speed being different from one another.

Yuji can't perceive SoS attacks because his brain is slow, Yuji's body is MHS. How is it not 100x? What lets you assume 50x? I've been using that as a low ball since it is equally ridiculous.

There isn't a single healthy person irl who's brain is 100x slower than their body (if anything mental speeds tend to surpass physical). You're making this weird unbacked assumption just to reconciles Yuji is MHS even though the simplest solution is that they aren't MHS

 

[Duedate8898]

I never even mentioned the MHS calc, you yourself have been using 50x for most of our argument with one another, why are you only now suddenly changing the speed?

And I said barely perceives, he is shown perceiving it at times just not every time. Clearly he can react to Mach 1 things. And more importantly suddenly citing ones health doesn't change anything, there's not a single healthy person irl whose brain is 100X faster than their body so I guess any character that has higher perception than physcial movement in fiction clearly doesn't have. Not to mention that these are very much short burst of speed on Yuji's part, so its not like his body is always moving at such extreme speeds.

 

[Arkenis]

Piercing Blood literally says the blood is condensed to its limit.

I didn't see this that's my fault but still I think the fact there seems to be a sonic boom would contradict the sos statement.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I never even mentioned the MHS calc, you yourself have been using 50x for most of our argument with one another, why are you only now suddenly changing the speed?

And I said barely perceives, he is shown perceiving it at times just not every time. Clearly he can react to Mach 1 things. And more importantly suddenly citing ones health doesn't change anything, there's not a single healthy person irl whose brain is 100X faster than their body so I guess any character that has higher perception than physcial movement in fiction clearly doesn't have. Not to mention that these are very much short burst of speed on Yuji's part, so its not like his body is always moving at such extreme speeds.

I've been using 50x as a lowball (and taking into account mach 2 weapons).

Due I'm sorry but that was a shit point you just made. What does a brain being 100x faster than the body have to do with this? You're the one arguing Yuji's brain is slow so your argument can hold any water. So Yuji's brain goes at Mach 1 while his body is far higher to the point he can't perceive what his body is doing really?

Look if you're gonna keep making baseless claims like Yuji's brain can't keep up with his body I'm not gonna respond to you.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I didn't see this that's my fault but still I think the fact there seems to be a sonic boom would contradict the sos statement.

The attack is still very close to SoS. Like I said it makes no sense for Akutami to word it like that. The sfx is also the same even without the visible boom

 

[Arkenis]

The attack is still very close to SoS. Like I said it makes no sense for Akutami to word it like that.

But makes no sense to show a sonic boom but it only be sos. It doesn't follow the series at all given makis calc is right.

 

[Duedate8898]

I've been using 50x as a lowball (and taking into account mach 2 weapons).

Due I'm sorry but that was a shit point you just made. What does a brain being 100x faster than the body have to do with this? You're the one arguing Yuji's brain is slow so your argument can hold any water. So Yuji's brain goes at Mach 1 while his body is far higher to the point he can't perceive what his body is doing really?

Look if you're gonna keep making baseless claims like Yuji's brain can't keep up with his body I'm not gonna respond to you.

At this point you're just being willingly ignorant.
You yourself bring up how someone can't be healthy because their brain can't react to their body going at super speeds. Then when I bring up an inverse case you dismiss my argument like it wasn't in response to what you were bringing up.

And the reason why I'm making these claims is once again because it's not only a real word thing and also common in fiction, but also because that's exactly what it looks like.

He clearly is shown dodging attacks at close range before they hit him, but also has a hard time predicting were they're going. Maybe it's because in short burst, he's capable of achieving speeds that exceed that of what's coming towards him without nescerrialy being able to react.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

But makes no sense to show a sonic boom but it only be sos. It doesn't follow the series at all given makis calc is right.

Maki's calc is in direct opposition to Getou's statement and the fact that even without the boom Yuji had trouble with this move. Maki's calc also only goes that high with fan calculations.

 

[Duedate8898]

And no it isn't, because once again, it's not about speed. It's about their lack of invulnerability

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

At this point you're just being willingly ignorant.
You yourself bring up how someone can't be healthy because their brain can't react to their body going at super speeds. Then when I bring up an inverse case you dismiss my argument like it wasn't in response to what you were bringing up.

And the reason why I'm making these claims is once again because it's not only a real word thing and also common in fiction, but also because that's exactly what it looks like.

He clearly is shown dodging attacks at close range before they hit him, but also has a hard time predicting were they're going. Maybe it's because in short burst, he's capable of achieving speeds that exceed that of what's coming towards him without nescerrialy being able to react.

I explicitly stated YOU CAN'T BE HEALTHY IF YOUR BRAIN IS 100X SLOWER THAN YOUR BODY. You brought up bring up a brain being 100x faster than a body when that has nothing to do with this.

It is apparently common in fiction for bodies to be 100x faster than the brain attached? Really?

 

[Ped2018]

damn, you guys are still discussing this?!

 

[RageComment]

In my opinion, a statement written on Panel by the Narrator/Author > Fan Pixel Calc

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Could it be death of the author? I haven't been paying much attention fyi.

 

[Arkenis]

It could, Gege isn't the brightest when it comes to her consistency for scaling prime example is this sos piercing blood yet maki can catch a bullet at point blank then yuji>maki and the calc yet yuji can get tagged by it

 

[RageComment]

Looking at the Maki calculation, the bullet is assumed to move at some 445 m/s This is purely assumption.
Instead of calling the author not the "brightest" maybe the fault lies with assuming the speed of a bullet that was not specified by the author.
I don't know where the faith in fan calculations being superior to an author's word comes from.

 

[RageComment]

Essentially from the perspective of the canon, we KNOW that Piercing Blood is Speed of Sound.
That is fact.

So we should re-evaluate everything else in that light.
Rather than just assuming the bullet speeds match real life bullet speeds, we have an actual speed from the author, in the verse, on panel.

Plenty of verses have bullets that massively out perform real life bullets. So having a verse where bullets are subsonic wouldn't be much of a shock.

BUT even aside that, I do not think that you have to use slow bullets if we re-examine the Maki Calculation and do it over taking criticisms into consideration, a more realistic value may be found.

 

[Ped2018]

Rather than just assuming the bullet speeds match real life bullet speeds,

huuu what?

 

[Duedate8898]

Essentially from the perspective of the canon, we KNOW that Piercing Blood is Speed of Sound.
That is fact.

So we should re-evaluate everything else in that light.
Rather than just assuming the bullet speeds match real life bullet speeds, we have an actual speed from the author, in the verse, on panel.

Again, while I personally disagree with it, Death of the Author is very much heavily used here. Just ask any admin.

 

[Ped2018]

what is death of the author?

 

[Arkenis]

Uh the reason that speed is used is due to the gun being used not just a random assumption. And I still do take issue with the sos statement for piercing blood, the visuals don't suggest the same.

 

[Arkenis]

From what I understand about DOA is that what the author says should not hold more weight than our interpretations and that both should be equal.

 

[Duedate8898]

From what I understand about DOA is that what the author says should not hold more weight than our interpretations and that both should be equal.

Pretty much.