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Jugram vs Gerard

Jugo loses or forces an incon by playng keep away since he won't use Balance due to knowing how Miracle works. If he does, Gerard keeps growing until he oneshots so hard that Jugo can't Balance it.
 
Jugram could simply downplay Gerard's luck by winning the chance to win, although every time he uses his attack reflexion Gerard can use it as well. Inconclusive vote. Incon FRA
 
Fight goes on like this:

- Jugram hits/cuts Gerard.

- Gerard grows stronger.

- Jugram says "how fortunate of you to grow stronger, here get more unfortunate".

- Gerard takes more damage than he regenerated and he can't possibly reflect it because it hits directly him, not his sword.

- Then Gerard once again starts to regenerate and grows stronger.

- Again Jugram says "how fortunate of you to grow stronger, here get more unfortunate". and it goes on like this.

Jugram gets the upper hand in the fight without leaving any means to fight for Gerard. Even though Gerard has Low-Godly Regenerationn, Quincy destroys souls so he can't regenerate probably and Jugram can absorb nearby reishi particles to prevent Gerard to regenerate from it.

TL;DR : Jugram takes it.
 
Gerard is only a soul and has had his whole body destroyed. The fact that he regens at all means that he can regen from parts of his soul being destroyed. Jugo also has no feats of taking control of reishi and stopping other Quincy powers, exhibit A, Jugo vs Uryu.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Jugo also has no feats of taking control of reishi and stopping other Quincy powers, exhibit A, Jugo vs Uryu.
Click to expand...
I was trying to say that Gerard can regenerate from the reishi around and Quincy can force reishi to obey them. If Jugram seriously harms Gerard as Byakuya and Toshiro did, Gerard will try to regenerate from the reishi around and Jugram can force those reishi to obey him which means he absorbs reishi around. All Quincy have this ability innate, like Uryu did against Mayuri.
 
@The4

Your reasoning doesnt apply since Gerard is a Quincy as well so why would Jugo's control take precedence? If he could actually do that, then why did he not against Bazz or Ishida? Logical conclusion is that he either can't or he doesn't, despite the fact that one of them has a power which he believes can counter the Almighty.

By how you said the fight would play out while ignoring the faulty reasoning, Gerard gets harmed and amps continuously. This proceeds to happen until he oneshots Jugo.
 
i vote incon as jugram can pretty much lock gerard in a loop of being rekt, growing stronger,getting rekt without stopping or until their shrift reach their limit if there is one .
 
Personal note: I wish we had seen Jugram and/or Uryu go Vollstanding.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
@The4
Your reasoning doesnt apply since Gerard is a Quincy as well so why would Jugo's control take precedence? If he could actually do that, then why did he not against Bazz or Ishida? Logical conclusion is that he either can't or he doesn't, despite the fact that one of them has a power which he believes can counter the Almighty.

By how you said the fight would play out while ignoring the faulty reasoning, Gerard gets harmed and amps continuously. This proceeds to happen until he oneshots Jugo.
Click to expand...
You probably didn't read my reasoning well, if you did then you would have understood what i meant there.

Everytime Gerard regenerates Jugram can just deal more damage to him than what he regenerated because that's what Balance does.

And when he was reduced to mincemeat position just like Byakuya and Hitsugaya did him, Jugram can force nearby reishi particles to obey him which causes Gerard to not regenerate from reishi.
 
You don't seem to understand how The Miracle or The Balance work then seeing as your relies on flawed reasoning.

The Balance doesn't deal more damage, it redirects "misfortune" that occurs to Jugo, ie any time Gerard damages him, he can choose to share it with him and the damage on him gets sent to the Freund Shield which then essentially doubles the damage Gerard heals. This is a dumb thing to do as Gerard will just regen with The Miracle regardless of how much damage gets dealt.

You also severley understimate Gerard in combat and overestimate Jugo. If RG training Byakuya and Renji didn't turn Gerard into "mincemeat" despite being far better equipped to do so, Jugo is doing nothing that will require large scale regen.

And read my above post because I already explained why him taking control of the reishi to neg The Miracle is wrong.
 
First thing first, i am very aware of what Miracle and Balance can or can't do.

And secondly, you contradict yourself here.You literally typed what i was trying to say from the beginning.I'm just rewriting what i already said above.

Jugram is obviously stronger than Byakuya and Renji and Gerard, you are comparing Sternritter Grandmaster to two captains.

As they both start at base, Jugram is obviously stronger than Base Gerard.(Please don't ask me how do i know it, just please.)

Jugram can just deal any damage to Base Gerard, which causes Gerard to regenerate and grow stronger which is a "fortunate" thing.Then Jugram can take that "fortune" and rains even more "misfortune" to Gerard, which means his Regenerationn will be undone and he will even receive more damage than he already had.This goes on forever and even if you say Jugram can't kill Gerard, Gerard will be stomped forever without any stop.

Basically this :

Gerard takes any damage => Regenerates and grows stronger => His Regenerationn becomes undone because of The Balance and he takes more damage than he took at the beginning because of The Balance. => Again regenerates and grows stronger => Again his Regenerationn becomes undone because of The Balance and he takes more damage than he took at the beginning because of The Balance. => Goes on forever.
 
Except I didnt contradict myself at all.

I agree that Base Jugo is stronger than Gerard.

How The Balance works. Redirecting misfortune in his sphere of influence to other people or objects, not turn others fortune into misfortune. Ergo Gerard regening will not be affected at all.

The only reason Jugo isn't losing this is because he isn't dumb enough to wound Gerard like you say he would.
 
These Sternritters were fortunate to escape death as said by Yhwach.

Then Jugram says that their fortune will be removed with the same amount of misfortune.

Cang Du stops Jugram's sword.

Jugram says that that was his second good fortune.

Because that was Cang Du's second good fortune, the scale was tipped in favor of good fortune.Then it must be balanced by the same amount of misfortune again(which means Cang Du will get more damage this time by the same sword.).

And exactly as i said above, Cang Du dies because of more misfortune.

As you said above, Jugram can't only control Misfortune and redirect it but he also controls Fortune and balances the Fortune with the same amount of Misfortune and with his Fruend Schild he can rain down more misfortune to his opponent.

So Gerard regenerating from Haschwalth's attacks is indeed Fortune and as i posted above, he can balance it with the same amount of Misfortune and can even rain down upon Gerard more misfortune.
 
So you believe that Jugo used his hax instead of simply applying more pressure? Just because he is being witty?

Even if I steel manned this, it still doesnt stop Gerard from constantly amping and eventually lolnoping The Balance via far superior reiatsu at which point he one shots assuming Jugo doesn't get exhausted from constantly doing this first.

Hell, lets say absolutely everything you say is true and that is how the fight goes. Its still incon as Jugo must constantly use an ability to keep Gerard from getting up and pwning him.
 
Personally, I believe that Jugo did use his ability to cut Cang Du mostly because of the scales that are drawn when he gives his line.

But that's just me.
 
I thought Balance was a passive ability which doesn't require Jugram to activate because here he says that all misfortune befalls him is redirected to his Fruend Schild.The misfortune befalls him deflected and absorbed by his Fruend Schild and then rains even more misfortune upon his opponent. .

What i'm trying to say he does not say he redirects misfortune, it says all misfortune befalls him is redirected which sounds like a passive ability to me.So Gerard will be pwned forever and ever without any chance to fight back.
 
Except when he fights Ishida, he gets gravely wounded by The Antithesis bouncing the wounds back at him. The two of them are able to have a brief conversation before Ishida turns to run off and gets Balance'd. Jugo then proceeds to explain how his Schrift and the Freund Shield work before the shield takes effect. The Balance is cleary an active ability or else when Cang Du blocks the strike with The Iron, he should have been split instantly rather than Jugo having the time to mock him.

Regardless of how one interprets the Schrift, by feats it is clearly active and not passive.

Edit: The scans you provided are about him summarising his powers to Ishida again, here he even says that he is the one who chooses to do so, and thus not passive.
 
PaChi2 said:
Personally, I believe that Jugo did use his ability to cut Cang Du mostly because of the scales that are drawn when he gives his line.
But that's just me.
Click to expand...
Now when i look at that scan once more, you are probably right.

He did try to cut Cang Du once but Cang Du was fortunate and didn't get cut.

Then the fortune of Cang Du being uncut from Jugram's Sword balanced with equal amount of unfortune and he did cut from the same place.(I mean Jugram did not cut Cang Du in the second time, it was Balance that did the cut.)
 
So you are saying that Gerard will regenerate forever and Jugram's reiatsu will be depleted eventually and then Gerard kills him.

But you are forgetting that every time he regenerates, he will face even greater misfortune which will eventually reduce him to a point even way smaller than mincemeat and when Gerard tries to regenerate even in that form, Jugram can force nearby reishi to obey him with Sklaverei ability which all the Quincy has and this way Gerard can't find any reishi particles to regenerate with.

By the way, even if Gerard gets very powerful than Jugram, Jugram's ability still works because Askin's Deathdealing worked on Ichigo even though Ichigo had way more Reiatsu and Nanana's ability worked on Aizen even though Aizen has way more Reiatsu.(This thing became invalid after time-skip.)
 
No I am saying that Jugo won't even bother harming Gerard since he knows how The Miracle works and that his The Balance is useless. In the event that you are correct, Gerard still outlasts by virtue of The Miracle being meant to keep him going. The moment Jugo tires the slightest bit and slips up, he gets one shot and can't Balance anything since its an active ability.

Gerard regen'd from nothing before so being "smaller than mincemeat" isn't going to stop him. Show me a single time Jugo used Sklaverei let alone to stop another Quincy.

The Deathdealing working on Ichigo doesn't mean shit tons of reiatsu negging hax is no longer a thing, it means the gap between Ichigo and Askin wasn't large enough. NaNaNa's Schrift specifically works better the longer he spends observing their reiatsu and allows him to pinpoint the weaknesses in it. The Underbelly working on Aizen is the absolute worst example you could give for "more reiatsu > hax" not being a thing when not only is Aizen restricted by the cloth and chair-sama which he even states to cause a bunch of holes in the reiatsu, it is basically designed to completely ignore the rule.
 
Bruh you are missing my point here.When i said "smaller than mincemeat" thing, i was trying to say that it would take more time and more reishi particles to regenerate and literally all Quincy can force reishi to obey them as seen Ishida vs Mayuri. Jugram will not use Sklaverei to stop a Quincy, he will use it to prevent Gerard to revive from reishi particles which Gerard does to regenerate.(Of course he can use Sklaverei dude wtf.)

And according to this site Askin is 7-A while Ichigo was 6-B when he encountered Askin so their difference is very very large to compare but even so Askin's ability worked on Ichigo.Aizen is just restricted to move, he was able to use his Reiatsu as he did Hado 90 to Black Things Yhwach summoned but even so Underbelly worked on him.
 
You don't seem to be understanding me either. If you want to say that The Miracle will take longer, do so. The scale of damage also has nothing to do with the time taken to regen seeing as he makes a new arm, puts both halves back together and even makes a new body all in a few panels each.

Jugram never used it to stop other Quincies from performing their basic stuff, this means he can't or just doesn't. Take your pick of why he won't be stopping the Miracle.

According to the profiles that still need to be updated you mean? Top tier argument right there. Askin scales from Urahara and Yoruichi who are both going to go up 6-C at the very least.

And you now ignore how the Schrift works as well as what happened in the manga. The cloth doesn't just prevent him from moving, it also seals his reiatsu. Its fairly simple to realise this if you read the manga or just read the part where Aizen wants to shoot down the SKP. It even happens right after that Hado 90 you brought up. Mayuri literally restricts his reiatsu with the seals and lectures him before NaNaNa Underbellies Aizen, saying that the sealing cloth is the likely reason why his reiatsu has a bunch of holes in it, cheering about how easy it is to get Aizen with it because of the laundry list of things going in his favor.
 
I agree with @The4Godlike.

Even if Jugram would run out of reiatsu, it would take so much time like years or decades(even isshin was able to hold 3 months.) and during whole time Gerard will be stomped hard without any chance to fight back and maybe(if his Regenerationn has no limits, which is kind NLF if you ask me.) eventually he would one shot Jugram.But as i said, even if that happens it would take so many years to do.So this does not make Gerard stronger really.

And Jugram has Almighty too and everything Almighty sees becomes user's ally and unable to harm him.So Gerard's Miracle might be nulled too.

Jugram takes this.
 
Reiryoku and that is irrelevant. The moment you concede to Gerard eventually one shotting, the entire argument for Jugo falls apart. The Balance is an active ability so even if it can keep Gerard from doing anything for years, it is still an incon due to him needing to constantly do it.

No one claimed The Miracle to have no limits.

This is Jugo in base which means he doesn't have The Almighty which is just swapping out The Balance for something that makes no difference either. Choosing the many ways one can fail to kill Gerard is still just that, failing to kill him. The Miracle would also be unnaffected as it isn't harming Jugo at all.
 
I meant Gerard one shots if he can regenerate even after years of damage which is possibly impossible because his Regenerationn must have limits and Gerard would take enormous amount of damage and misfortune over those years he got affected by Balance which reduces him to smaller than atoms probably and eventually he would be as good as completely destroyed and he can't regenerate from that state because all Quincy destroy souls.So Gerard who needs his soul to regenerate can't regenerate after even his soul is destroyed.

Well you will probably not agree with me but whatever.This is what i think and probably what @The4Godlike was trying to say.
 
Given that his regen has shown no upper limit and the mechanics of it pointing to him only needing reishi in his surroundings to regen, yes he can keep going for years.

Evidence that the Balance reduces someone to smaller than atoms? Because that is one mighty claim right there. Lets even ignore the fact that he regenerated from nothing so its not like smaller than atoms is even relevant here.

Yes Quincy destroy souls. Gerard however, hes low godly regen by virtue of having regenerated a new spirtiual body since his old one got power nulled and destroyed. Soul destruction is pretty useless against someone who has feats of coming back from it.

Well you're correct in your assumption that I don't agree. The point in my responses is because the basis of your vote is wrong.
 
Let's assume Balance deals 2x(Jugram said that Balance rains even more misfortune but let's assume it is 2x) misfortune/damage each time Gerard regenerates.After all those years fight lasts, Gerard at least regenerates 4 times each day(he regenerated 4 times before he was absorbed by Yhwach).And let's say Jugram's reiatsu would be depleted after a year.

This makes 2^1460 times more misfortune/damage Gerard will get.(4x365 = 1460 and this is the minimum amount i assumed.). 2^1460 (Two to the power 1460) is a very very large number and getting this much damage will reduce Gerard way smaller than the size of smallest thing theoretically known which is 1.6 x 10^-36.This would theoretically destroy all of Gerard.

By the way IIRC Gerard did not come back from getting his soul destroyed, only his body was destroyed.Quincy are human(for example Yhwach, Ishida, Masaki and etc.) so Gerard is also human and all Quincy can destroy souls.So once Jugram reduces Gerard to nearly destroyed size, his soul will also get destroyed along with his body and he won't be regenerating from that.

That's all i got to say, please agree with me already :')
 
Except from the onset of your post, it is wrong. The Balance doesn't rain more misfortune by itself, it is specifically with the Freund Shield that applies the same amount of damage again. The Balance shares the misfortune Jugo has with the enemey while the misfortune on hi gets redirected to the shield which immediately bounces it to the enemy as well, hence it "rains more misfortune".

In this scenario, the only misfortune that will get placed upon Gerard is that of his own fortune healing whatever wound Jugo causes.

Gerard is a soul. Everything in SS is made of reishi, ie what souls are made of. Losing a body there is the same as losing your soul unless you want to argue he has a soul (which none of these Shinigami could see) inside his soul. If you disagree with him being a soul, make a CRT because unless you get low godly removed, Gerard can regen from anything Jugo does.

Sorry but I can't agree. How about an alternative where you just agree with me lol.
 
The4Godlike said:
These Sternritters were fortunate to escape death as said by Yhwach.
Then Jugram says that their fortune will be removed with the same amount of misfortune.

Cang Du stops Jugram's sword.

Jugram says that that was his second good fortune.

Because that was Cang Du's second good fortune, the scale was tipped in favor of good fortune.Then it must be balanced by the same amount of misfortune again(which means Cang Du will get more damage

And exactly as i said above, Cang Du dies because of more misfortune.

As you said above, Jugram can't only control Misfortune and redirect it but he also controls Fortune and balances the Fortune with the same amount of Misfortune and with his Fruend Schild he can rain down more misfortune to his opponent.

So Gerard regenerating from Haschwalth's attacks is indeed Fortune and as i posted above, he can balance it with the same amount of Misfortune and can even rain down upon Gerard more misfortune.
Click to expand...
According to this, Balance rains equal amount of misfortune as your fortune.As for Gerard's case, when he regenerates he will get equal amount of misfortune and his Regenerationn will be basically undone and then he will regenerate stronger once again and because he grows stronger he will face more misfortune and this goes on till he gets destroyed(both body and soul) as i said in my last post.

Gerard has Low-Godly Regenerationn and Low-Godly Regen is "The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of your body, instead restoring it from your disembodied consciousness, whether that be your soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of yourself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else." according to this site, regenerating from destruction of soul is Mid-Godly which Gerard does not have unless you claim his physical body is also his soul/spiritual body.So Gerard regenerated from destruction of his body which makes him human.And Haschwalth can also destroy soul along with body.So Gerard won't be regenerating from that.
 
Well lets say Jugo does damage to Gerard. The Miracle will regen and make him slightly stronger and bigger, that is his good fortune which then gets reversed. Since Gerard scales up with his strength, any misfortune brought about by The Balance will still be proportional to his body. So while its only a scratch to his base form, it could a 5 meter long cut in his god-size. Devastating to his base but trivial to his god size.

Regenerating from soul destruction is not mid godly, its still low godly. Mid godly is having your mind, body and soul erased from existence. The Miracle is low godly because he can regenrate from his body and soul being destroyed. Saying only his body got destroyed doesn't work here because everything is made of spiritual matter and can see it. You keep ignoring the fact that Gerard is a soul in the fight where he makes a new body as its literally impossible for him to have one made of kishi.

>Gerard is human

I'm sorry what? He most certainly is not human, he is the heart of the Soul King.
 
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