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JoJo and Verse Equalization

HierophantDeluxe said:
You misread or ignored my argument, I'm saying not all things named "ghosts" can be equalized to "ghosts" in another verse. If I called every feline a "ghost" in my verse, would it now be equalized to an actual spirit in your verse? Of course not.
If you're saying that VE can allow people to fight stands or something well that's wrong too. Stands are a supernatural energy, but they are not required to fight stand users. There are people without stands who fight stand users within JoJo all the time.
Click to expand...
Are you saying the stands are not Non-Corporeal at all, then? It is either this point or characters that can fight them have Non-Physical Interaction?
 
Stands are non-corporeal because they don't have a material body and can be disregarded very easily by the stand user.

You can only touch a stand if you have some sort of spiritual energy resembling them, as stands can only be touched by other stands.

If your NPI is granted as a consequence of touching a spiritually intangible character or being like a ghost, then yes, you can touch a stand. If your NPI is granted as a consequence of touching an elementally intangible character or something, then no, you cannot touch a stand.
 
On a surface level yes, but you must realize that we've been told stands are just invisible spirit energy. If a normal ghost is also invisible spirit energy, then you now have them sharing the same description. In this context, stands = ghosts. They are then two of basically the same things interacting with each other, which is fine.

The specific statement should be: "only spirit energies can interact with spirit energies", or better yet, "only spiritual energies can interact with stands".

Hope that makes sense.
 
HierophantDeluxe said:
Stands are non-corporeal because they don't have a material body and can be disregarded very easily by the stand user.
You can only touch a stand if you have some sort of spiritual energy resembling them, as stands can only be touched by other stands.

If your NPI is granted as a consequence of touching a spiritually intangible character or being like a ghost, then yes, you can touch a stand. If your NPI is granted as a consequence of touching an elementally intangible character or something, then no, you cannot touch a stand.
Click to expand...
True
 
So, ghosts with stands are literally spirit energy that can summon spirit energy? No, that's wrong. They're two different kinds of "spirit energy". Ghosts are a soul's spirit energy, while Stands are a special kind of spirit energy, someone's willpower's spirit energy. And while they're both "SE", Stands' SE is "above" the soul's, and as such Stands can affect ghosts but not the other way around. Also, that would mean that affect the Soul's SE in a verse isn't enough to affect a Stand, as they're made of a different kind of SE.
 
Yes, ghosts with stands are spirit energy that can summon spirit energy.

Stands aren't souls but rather the physical manifestation of them (this has been said by Joseph and the narrator, I could gather up the direct sources but it would take a while).

You need a soul to produce a stand based on that logic, but nothing more than that. Yoshikage Kira's dad is perfect evidence of that, he's just a soul. Logically, there should be nothing stopping him from creating a physical manifestation from his soul.

I don't see why this specifically is a contradiction or issue?

And you can't just say "no thats wrong", you need to explain why it is wrong just like I'm explaining why it is right.
 
Because, if they were the same thing, there would be no difference between Kira's father and his stand. And yet, they're not the same thing. Yes, they are spirit energy that can summon spirit energy, but the two kinds of spirit energy are different.
 
They are the same MATERIAL (invisible spirit energy), they are clearly not the same thing. Star Platinum is not the same thing as Hermit Purple despite them being made up of the same thing.

Same goes here, Kira's father is the same MATERIAL as his stand (invisible spirit energy), but he's clearly not the same thing.

There's been no distinction made between spirit energies by Araki, only the form they take.
 
What you're describing are how Stands can differ from one and the other. Not how they are similar to souls. One of the very few unbroken rules of stands is that some mone can only have one stand, or one spiritual energy. But if both the soul and stand are made of this same spiritual energy, that would imply that that a person has more than a single spiritual energy (Diavolo would have three of them).

Also, stands can come from souls, but the opposite is never true. This shows, once again, that they're not the same thing. Also, weren't stands "just" manifestations of the user's fighting spirit? It was for the lack of fighting spirit that Holly and thr other Joestars had intense fever and nearly died once Awakening a stand. I'm starting to think that the translation may not be accurate...
 
Promestein said:
I don't care about ghost/Stand shit. I don't think ghosts can harm Stands; the hands in the alleyway are a very special case. They can separate your Stand from your soul; they're clearly not normal ghosts if they're even ghosts at all. But it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Can they touch stands? Very clearly yes, the ones in the alley grabbed Kira and Killer Queen, pretty sure there's an instance of Kira's dad touching a stand.

(And you're wrong, the alley ones did not seperate KQ and Kira, he summoned it whilst literally shouting "protect me, Killer Queen!". I can get a scan if you want.)

But can they harm stands? Depends on their strength, from what we've seen I'd say probably not, except for the alley ones that ripped KQ in half. They also don't seem to have crazy abilities.
 
I highly doubt the Alley Hands are ghosts. There's nothing stating they are. Also, I don't remember any instance of Kira's father touching a stand, so it would be appreciated if you showed us.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
What you're describing are how Stands can differ from one and the other. Not how they are similar to souls. One of the very few unbroken rules of stands is that some mone can only have one stand, or one spiritual energy. But if both the soul and stand are made of this same spiritual energy, that would imply that that a person has more than a single spiritual energy (Diavolo would have three of them).
Also, stands can come from souls, but the opposite is never true. This shows, once again, that they're not the same thing. Also, weren't stands "just" manifestations of the user's fighting spirit? It was for the lack of fighting spirit that Holly and thr other Joestars had intense fever and nearly died once Awakening a stand. I'm starting to think that the translation may not be accurate...
Click to expand...
Well there are instances where a person has more than one stand. DIO has Hermit Purple and The World, and Rohan had Cheap Trick and Heaven's Door. Special cases sure, but it's clearly not an unbroken and unfaltering rule. Diavolo has two souls in his body, it's why he has two stands. Not sure what you mean in general, but yes, souls and stands are demonstrably made up of the same material and you're arguing against WoG at this point I think.

The general rule is that you can only have one stand per soul.

Yes I know stands and souls aren't the exact same thing, but they're made up of the same material. For all intensive purposes they are treated the exact same ways. Joseph describing it was at the start of the series when they were just being introduced and it's honestly close enough but WoG takes priority, especially since those scans I provided were written for SBA.
 
What would they even be ghosts of? Every other ghost we've seen goes to heaven and Kira, who's a bad dude, just normally shows up where Reimi is, he doesn't turn into hands.
 
As I said above, Stands are spirits not ghosts; they are manifestation of the user's will or something.
 
Right, and whilst stands may be made up of the same material as ghosts (invisible spirit energy), they clearly do not take the same form or function and aren't the exact same thing.

This means just like Star Platinum can touch Crazy Diamond because they are the same material, ghosts can also touch Star Platinum and vice versa. They interact with stands like other stands.
 
Is there any instance of ghosts being able to interact with stands? That would clear the entire thing. I personally remember none, but maybe you can remember something.
 
If a characters can affect Non-corporeal or Immaterial Intangible beings, then by definitions they can affect stands
 
They alley hands are ghosts. The word to look out for specifically is haunted, which means "to be frequented by a ghost". Reimi also describes them as "the dead".

But the real evidence that ghosts can touch stands is simple: if stands are invisible spirit energy... then what are ghosts? Right, invisible spirit energy.

They're described as the same thing. Can we move on now?
 
I mean, Reimi is a ghost and that's where she is. And the hands are clearly different than any old regular ghost.
 
Haunted is referred to the fact that ghosts like Reimi live there. Kira explicitly says that there was a powerful being AND that it was haunted.

Where are you taking from that they're also "invisible spirit energy"? That's your own headcanon.
 
Promestein said:
I mean, Reimi is a ghost and that's where she is. And the hands are clearly different than any old regular ghost.
Click to expand...
Yeah clearly they're much stronger and more powerful. But they can still touch stands and be interacted with by stands (like when KQ tried to fight them).
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Haunted is referred to the fact that ghosts like Reimi live there. Kira explicitly says that there was a powerful being AND that it was haunted.
Where are you taking from that they're also "invisible spirit energy"? That's your own headcanon.
Click to expand...
Sure they aren't explicitly called "ghosts" (not that it matters, this is irrelevant in the first place) but Reimi also refers to them as the dead. I don't see how this helps your argument? Just because a ghost hasnt touched a stand doesn't mean they can't.

Ghosts are synonymous with spirits. How can a spirit not be made up of spiritual energy? It's not headcanon it's common sense lol.

Basic extrapolation Triforce:

- stands are spirit energy, stands can only touch stands because of this

- ghosts are spirit energy

- ghosts should be able to touch stands as well
 
Either we equalize it in Valentine's favor and make it so that basically everyone is paradoxed by D4C or we do something more sensible and only apply it to characters who haven't interacted with an alternate self, which is still a LOT of characters.
 
I think everyone should be paradoxed by D4C unless they literally don't have an alternate self, I guess that applies to certain people with acausality.
 
I think I'll agree with Prom's last obtions, D4C will work as long the verse do not have a paradox standard (ambiguos).
 
HierophantDeluxe said:
Just because a ghost hasnt touched a stand doesn't mean they can't.

Ghosts are synonymous with spirits. How can a spirit not be made up of spiritual energy? It's not headcanon it's common sense lol.

Basic extrapolation Triforce:

- stands are spirit energy, stands can only touch stands because of this

- ghosts are spirit energy

- ghosts should be able to touch stands as well
Click to expand...
And at the same time we cannot say they can.

Spirit doesn't necessarily mean soul. In Pokémon, for example, "spirit" is the combination of emotions, will and knowledge.

Then just shows us ONE instance of ghosts touching stands. Do that and I'll agree with you. Also, that logic is flawed. The simple fact that Stands =/= Souls, even when they're made of the same "material", means we cannot automatically assume they can hit ech other.
 
As of now we're going in circles, I explain it, you disagree and argue.

All I will say on the matter is that even manifesting spiritual energy makes you immediately meet the criteria and definition of having a stand according to WoG. If yourself are made up of spiritual energy, you should be able to touch other spiritual energies, that includes stands... arguing otherwise is silly and ridiculous to me.

Good luck Triforce, I doubt you'll get a majority of people to agree with your sentiment that stands are literally the only thing that can touch stands. But I think I've given you enough to reflect on.
 
Promestein said:
Either we equalize it in Valentine's favor and make it so that basically everyone is paradoxed by D4C or we do something more sensible and only apply it to characters who haven't interacted with an alternate self, which is still a LOT of characters.
Click to expand...
I extremely agree with the latter.
 
Considering in eoh dio straight up summons his past selves and is fine

But still gets paradoxed by touching the bracelets from the main verse idk if type 1 works
 
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