JJBA Part II Minor Revisions

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So looking over some of the Battle Tendency profiles, I noticed a few things that should probably be changed.

1. The reaction speed seems to be off. Everyone seems to be scaled from Joseph's laser dodging feat from before he finished his full Hamon training, which resulted in >2c. However, Kars has a feat on his page in which the results were >9c (lowest end) to >40c (highest end). Considering this was wounded, pre-Ultimate Lifeform Kars, shouldn't this higher calc be the one that should take precedence? It would apply to Joseph, Caesar, Stroheim, and all of the Pillar Men, since none of them were that much below base Kars, and would bump their speed from FTL to FTL+.

2. Ultimate Kars AP, even with the lowest of the lowballing, seems...waaaaay too low. Tarkus, a minor antagonist from Part I, performed a cliff splitting feat which resulted in ~0.8 tons of TNT/building level. After absorbing Zeppeli's Hamon, Jonathan destroyed Tarkus with almost no effort. Soon after, he struggled against Dio, which would suggest both Jonathan and Dio at that point were significantly stronger than Tarkus. Meanwhile, Kars is the strongest of the Pillar Men, who are all significantly beyond vampires of Dio's level to such an extent they simply use them as slaves or eat them. Ultimate Kars is 100 times stronger than Joseph, who was comparable to his previous form.

Now for the sake of the absolute lowest possible lowball, assume Part I Dio is just barely stronger than Tarkus (which is blatantly false), and the Pillar Men and Joseph are just just barely stronger than Dio (which is again, blatantly false), meaning they're all around the level of ~0.8 tons of TNT in power. Kars then gets his power multiplied a hundred fold, which puts him ~80 tons of TNT/City Block level+. On a slightly less (but still very) lowballed note, assume Dio and Jonathan are 1.5 times stronger than Tarkus (~1.2 tons of TNT), and the Pillar Men and Joseph are 1.5 times that (~1.8 tons of TNT). Now multiply Kars power by 100, and he ends up at ~180 tons of TNT/Multi-City Block level. Since again, both of these are either the lowest estimate actually possible (in the first case) or an incredibly low estimate (in the second case), it seems reasonable that Ultimate Kars should have his AP changed to "At least Multi-City Block level, likely higher".

This would also mean that with the Red Stone of Aja (which amplifies his power a million fold and caused a massive volcanic eruption), his power would be at a bare, unrealistic minimum ~80 megatons/City level+, and ~180 megatons/Mountain level at a more realistic yet still lowballed level.

In short:

• Pretty much every major fighter in Part II goes from FTL to FTL+.

• Ultimate Kars is moved to "At least 8-A, likely higher" and probably gets a key for if he has the RSoA ("At least 7-A, likely higher").

Opinions?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems reasonable. However, from where do you get the 100x and 1000000x stronger values? Can they truly be taken literally?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I agree with point 1.

Point 2: A considerable amount of assumptions and calc stacking. I don't agree.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I suppose that this seems reasonable. However, from where do you get the 100x and 1000000x stronger values? Can they truly be taken literally?

The 100 times stronger thing comes from statements of Kars' Hamon being 100 times more potent than Joseph's, which would make sense, since Joseph and Stroheim couldn't even hope to pose a challenge to him on their own after he'd reached this form. Every minor attack severely wounded Joseph (snapped his leg like a twig, shot through his hand, etc.) and he only won through clever tricks and luck.

The million times thing is from the Red Stone of Aja. Its whole deal is that it refracts light (and by extension, Hamon) a million fold and turns even regular sunlight into a powerful laser. When Kars accidentally uses his Hamon on the stone, it's so powerful it causes a volcanic eruption which launches him and Joseph towards space.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I agree with point 1.
Point 2: A considerable amount of assumptions and calc stacking. I don't agree.

Don't really see where the considerable amount of calc stacking comes from. Going by Tarkus' building bust and assuming no one got any stronger than him whatsoever, it doesn't make any sense for Ultimate Kars to be any less than "At least City Block level+". There's being on the safe side, but this seems to be a case where assuming no tier raises whatsoever just doesn't work.

 

[Antvasima]

Do you have links to the statements? I agree with TMR that part 2 largely seems to build on assumptions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Here is Kars accidentally using his Hamon on the stone and causing a massive volcanic eruption. Here is Kars explaining how the stone works, and as we see later, it works with Hamon (due to it being energy from the sun). Joseph even states the stone is a ripple amplifier.

Lemme snag the hundred times statement.

Edit: Here it is. Kars states he can generate around 100 times the power that Joseph can. Then, the narrator themself states it was actually several hundred times (so I guess I lowballed that part, too).

 

[Alakabamm]

The first one is fine, the second one is certainly calc stacking. Kars didn't even have Hamon until after he was activated by the Red Stone. Using that form as an example of his power is inaccurate and coming up with random multipliers is not right either.

I do remember the 100x statement, but I don't remember the 1,000,000x statement. I would ask for proof of the second.

The first one, however, only applies to post-Red Stone Kars. Not base.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The first one is fine, the second one is certainly calc stacking. Kars didn't even have Hamon until after he was activated by the Red Stone. Using that form as an example of his power is inaccurate and coming up with random multipliers is not right either.
I do remember the 100x statement, but I don't remember the 1,000,000x statement. I would ask for proof of the second.

The first one, however, only applies to post-Red Stone Kars. Not base.

See above for the relevant scans.

Him not having Hamon prior to that is irrelevant, as the point is his Hamon was that much more powerful than Joseph's, who could keep up with base Kars.

By "first one" in the last sentence, do you mean the first point or the 100x? Because I already mentioned the 100x only applied to Ultimate Kars.

 

[Alakabamm]

The 100x one. But the second is STILL calc stacking.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The 100x one. But the second is STILL calc stacking.

That was just used as an example, really. The thing is, it's not possible for a character to be 100 times stronger than a building level character (regardless of their exact level of power) and still be building level.

The City/Mountain level with the RSoA doesn't even really need multipliers, as it's what happened on panel.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

"This character has been revealed to be able to deliver this amount of TNT equivalent via a calc, and the other character is *insert numbers here* Times stronger than this character, hence he must of course be this strong."

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"This character has been revealed to be able to deliver this amount of TNT equivalent via a calc, and the other character is *insert numbers here* Times stronger than this character, hence he must of course be this strong."

Yes, but that's the thing. The exact level isn't important, in this case. You cannot be 100 times stronger than a building level character and still be building level. If we don't know how much stronger one character is than another, then simply putting them in the same tier with "At least" is fine. However, if we have an exact number or even an estimate, and that estimate puts them well into a higher tier regardless of where the person they're stronger than fell in the initial tier, they logically cannot be the same tier.

 

[Alakabamm]

I am aware of the point of using the first multiplier. I was asking for a source on the second, 1000000x multiplier

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am aware of the point of using the first multiplier. I was asking for a source on the second, 1000000x multiplier

I posted the scan above. It's the one in which Kars explains to Wamuu how the stone works.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

This is a scan which says the volcanic eruption is "stronger than anything we can imagine" I don't believe one would need calc stacking to show this feat to atleast be in the 7-A to 6-C category.

 

[Alakabamm]

If that is the case, that is fine.

However, I don't agree with the calc stacking that is present in the second point, as I mentioned. AKA the 1.5x thing.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

If that is the case, that is fine.
However, I don't agree with the calc stacking that is present in the second point, as I mentioned. AKA the 1.5x thing.

Yea I am also a little uneasy on the whole 1.5 thing also. I think if we just put in Dio and Jonathon at this tier = At least 8-C we would be aknowledging that these two are stronger than the average building buster.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If that is the case, that is fine.
However, I don't agree with the calc stacking that is present in the second point, as I mentioned. AKA the 1.5x thing.

Completely fine. As I said before, it was an example, and even without taking calcs into consideration, the 100x thing along with the volcanic eruption would suggest something along the lines of "At least 8-B/8-A, likely higher. 7-A with the Red Stone of Aja", which I would be perfectly happy with.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yea I am also a little uneasy on the whole 1.5 thing also. I think if we just put in Dio and Jonathon at this tier = At least 8-C we would be aknowledging that these two are stronger than the average building buster.

As I said before, it's a malleable example. As for the original JoJo and Dio, "At least 8-C" would likely be best, seeing as how easily Jonathan destroyed Tarkus after his Hamon boost.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The interesting thing is that would this also apply to Pillar Men's base forms?

The only reason why Kars was unable to hamon in the first place was because if he did he would melt himself, seeing as he is weak to the sun and all.

However when he lost his weakness of the sun he used Hamon and even for a newbie with no training whatsoever his hamon was a hundred times that of Joseph. If Weather Report is given 6-C for his potential of destroying the ozone layer Kars should be 8-A on being potentially 100 times that of Joseph in base form.

Seeing as Kars is less of a warrior compared to his brethren due to his outlook of leaving no survivors etc and how easily Joseph dealt with his base form I suppose this would scale to the other pillar men.

 

[Alakabamm]

It's not really potential. its a stated ability by someone who looked at the inner workings of the stand itself

But anyways, its aja-Kars so it shouldn't scale.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Good point.

 

[LordXcano]

I believe someone got Island Level for that volcanic eruption. I could try to find it.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. From what I could see, it was only stated that light was reflected millions of times within the gem, not that it made Kars millions of times more powerful. However, if somebody would calculate the volcanic eruption, we could scale from that.

As for Kars being a hundred times more powerful, that was strictly his own estimation, but being an extremely intelligent being, it seems less unreliable.

 

[LordXcano]

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21059

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18465

These are 2 calcs I could find of the volanic eruption.

 

[Alakabamm]

Hm, well, light energy can't be amplified by reflection in the first place, so I took it as the author's way of telling us the degree of amplification.

I can understand why you would think differently though.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. They give vastly different values. I suppose that calculation group members need to take a look at which seems correct.

 

[Alakabamm]

TBH they both assume the volcanic energy all hit Kars which is pretty far from true...I'd be more comfortable using the multiplier

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it was not explicitly stated within that scan that the gem multiplied his power a million times, but if Kars with the gem was able to cause a volcanic eruption, that should be scalable. Or have I misunderstood?

 

[LordXcano]

Hmm. They give vastly different values. I suppose that calculation group members need to take a look at which seems correct.

The first one just gave a massive lowball by just saying it was only in excess of the highest recorded eruption up until that point. It didn't really calculate the actual eruption itself, the second one did. But if people find something wrong with the second one then we'd fall back on the first.

@Alakabamm The manga implies that the eruption wouldn't have killed Kars and that sending him into space was the only way to win, as said in the comments on one of the blogs.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Well, it was not explicitly stated within that scan that the gem multiplied his power a million times, but if Kars with the gem was able to cause a volcanic eruption, that should be scalable. Or have I misunderstood?

Joseph refers to the red stone of Aja as a Hamon amplifier. The power it gained when Kars hit it was enough to create a eruption which was " stronger than anything we can imagine "

Plus this scan says that even when using the amazing power of the Earth, it will still be insufficent to kill Kars. So him surviving the volcanic energy hitting him all at once sounds legitimate.

 

[Alakabamm]

You don't have to take the energy of a volcanic eruption to survive it. Volcanic eruptions aren't like bombs.

 

[LordXcano]

Lava is pretty thick as far as I know. Taking lava to the face at Mach 20 shouldn't be all that lower than taking a brick to the face at Mach 20. Either way even if Kars only took 1% of the energy from the low-end calc that's still 221.83 gigatons of power. So it's Large Island even with a low-end of the low-end.

 

[Alakabamm]

1) To transfer kinetic energy 100%, all of the lava in the calculation would need to hit him and then immediately stop moving. Not even a fraction of a fraction hits him and it certainly kept moving into space with him.

2) A mach 20 brick to the face would probably be small building level at best.

 

[LordXcano]

"1) To transfer kinetic energy 100%, all of the lava in the calculation would need to hit him and then immediately stop moving. Not even a fraction of a fraction hits him and it certainly kept moving into space with him."

Yeah, none of the lava hits him. But the text, as linked above, says that even if he had tanked the eruption he still would've lived. Sending him into space was the only option.

 

[Alakabamm]

But tanking an eruption isn't getting hit with hundreds of thousands of lbs of lava.

 

[LordXcano]

Which is why I used the low end calc and ''then ''assumed he'd only get hit with a mere 1% of that lava. Hell even 0.1% of the lava hitting him would still yield Island Level results.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Alakabamm that we cannot scale all of the energy from an extremely dispersed eruption. If he caused it himself, that is another matter.

 

[LordXcano]

He ''sorta ''did it himself. He used the Aja to do it but then we could easily just have a separate Key on Kars' page for his AP with the Aja.