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Jiren vs Beerus

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AKM sama said:
That scan is out of context and misleading.

There was a direct order from Belmod that Toppo should erase all of Vegeta's attack. The hakai ball Vegeta punched through was aimed to destroy Vegeta's attacks but he still punched through it. And these hakai balls had EE property as they were erasing parts of the arena.

Later, Toppo unleashes a full powered Hakai which Vegeta overpowered with his ki. Since characters have shown to resist EE just by overpowering it, Jiren should be fine, unless Beerus has a feat where he hakais a massively stronger opponent.
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Did I say Vegeta doesn't have Resistance to EE? No

But Hakai sphere & the technique Beerus used to kill the Ghost/Zamasu are different
 
Yeah, different techniques yielding the same result, EE. I already covered that before.
 
Irrelavent towards which is stronger, but the sphere technique LOOKS more deadly, as its packed with pure hakai energy instead of an invisible wave of it.
 
I think the Hakai thing is pretty settled. Jiren is more than likely strong enough to throw it off/prevent it.

TBH, I think Beerus' ability to duplicate himself and null energy attacks are more relevant.
 
Isnt beerus' nulling ability just part of what a hakaishin can do? It just that beerus showed it at an early stage of dbs and it didnt have much context. But now we know that all hakaishin can completely erase matter and energy from existance.
 
Except Beerus demonstrates this ability before he ever uses Hakai. He uses it in his fight with Goku. We learn that Beerus can destroy/erase things when he uses it on present day Zamasu.

There's also the fact that the technique looks nothing like Hakai.

Seen here.
 
@AKM sama Don't know what you're talking about. Frieza was infinitely weaker than Toppo and still resisted the hakai sphere. That just makes his EE look real bad.

It's obvious that he didn't wanted to kill someone in the tournament because of the rules.
 
Also Beerus gets heavily blitzed. Champa couldn't see normal Dyspo who scales to Beerus, and Zeno needed slow motion technology to see Dyspo. Vados also said she managed to see him. Super Speed Dyspo has godly speed compared to his normal form, and Zeno couldn't see him even with slow motion. And suppressed Jiren is >>>>>>>>>>> Dyspo
 
Yet Beerus could see Super Speed Dyspo just fine. And Gohan and Golden Frieza somewhat managed to keep up with him.

Also you say suppressed Jiren is like crazy faster than Dyspo. But 3rd UIO, who's said to have only maybe surpassed Beerus, is superior to suppressed Jiren. So how is Dyspo faster than Beerus then?

And the GoDs were able to see the fight between MUI Goku and Jiren.

If anything Base Dyspo being >>>> GoDs is PIS.
 
JackJoyce said:
@AKM sama Don't know what you're talking about. Frieza was infinitely weaker than Toppo and still resisted the hakai sphere. That just makes his EE look real bad.
It's obvious that he didn't wanted to kill someone in the tournament because of the rules.
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It's obvious that he didn't want to kill Freeza, he even said so later. But that has nothing to do with the fact that enough ki has time and again shown to interfere with EE in DB.

I agree with Ryu on the speed thing.
 
It's not PIS. Only blue tier+ characters could fight against Dyspo, but even SSG Goku could barely react to him. They established it to make a point, they didn't need to waste time every episode just so people can complain about not seeing Dyspo.

Dyspo while amped only put pressure on Frieza and Gohan with his speed, and neither of them should be as strong as UIO, so Jiren is far beyond Dyspo's speed, especially since Goku moved faster than both Toppo and Dyspo's perceptions in his first transformation.

"Also you say suppressed Jiren is like crazy faster than Dyspo. But 3rd UIO, who's said to have only maybe surpassed Beerus, is superior to suppressed Jiren. So how is Dyspo faster than Beerus then?"

Surpassed in all aspects of physical ability. You wouldn't say amped Dyspo is stronger than Golden Frieza simply because his speed was putting pressure on him, because it isn't true. After all that, Frieza had n o scratches or marks.
 
And Blue Tier characters aren't God of Destruction level. Gohan and Frieza, both of which aren't nearly as fast as Beerus, can keep up with Super Speed Dyspo.

It's not just that they don't show people complaining. It's that Beerus can outright see him over and over since then. And Beerus could see Gohan and Golden Frieza, both of which are faster than Base Dyspo, many times.

There are more showings against Base Dyspo being much higher than GoDs.
 
It's beyond mere coincidence that Champa couldn't see base Dyspo at all, but all of a sudden he could see amped Dyspo perfectly. Especially since Zeno should have better speed stats than Champa given his attack speed.
 
Unite My Rice said:
It's beyond mere coincidence that Champa couldn't see base Dyspo at all, but all of a sudden he could see amped Dyspo perfectly. Especially since Zeno should have better speed stats than Champa given his attack speed.
Click to expand...
This plus the fact that characters like Golden Frieza and Gohan are explicitly faster than Base Dyspo, and how SSG and Hit were able to somewhat keep up with Base Dyspo, shows that Base Dyspo being above GoD level is inconsistent.
 
SSG Goku could react but needed to transform to counteract, SSB Goku has been shown as superior to Hit without kaioken since their Earth fight, and Hit had to adapt to Dyspo just like he somewhat adapted to Jiren.

Speed doesn't dictate being more powerful than an opponent. Dyspo had SSG Goku on edge, but wasn't close to harming him at all.
 
So Dyspo is so fast that Gods of Destruction can't even see his movements from meters away, yet SSG Goku and Hit can react to him in combat and Golden Frieza is faster than him?
 
Champa is the only one that made any indication of not being able to see. Also, Jiren has made multiple movements during the series that were much faster than anything Dyspo has done, yet you have guys like Krillin, Roshi, and Piccolo narrating his fight to the audience, and nobody is complaining about not being able to see him every time he moves.
 
My point is given that the GoDs show able to see Dyspo or faster characters multiple times, and characters who obviously aren't on GoD level are comparable or faster than Dyspo, that one instance of Dyspo being too fast for Champa to see is inconsistent. Also Champa has many low ends making him look pathetic. Those shouldn't be used to nerf Beerus.
 
@Ryukama

Is correct there is hell of inconsistent and PIS in Super Tournament Arc. Zeno couldn't keep up with Dyspo some episodes and then he could. Zeno couldn't keep up with Jiren and Goku, but then he could. Krillin, Roshi, and Piccolo also had some moments where they couldn't keep up, but then they could.
 
It's not nerfing Beerus. If it was PIS, it wouldn't have been mentioned multiple times amongs angels/GoDs/Zeno, it's simply inconsistent. Plus, when Zeno couldn't see amped Dyspo at all, Grand Priest said "for now, enjoy a fight that is too fast to see", and minutes later, Zeno is literally providing commentary for the fight. The intent is clear, the consistency isn't there.
 
Votes so far:

Jiren: 11 (The 2nd Existential Seed, Iapitus The Impaler, Aeyu, Theglassman12, Cropfist, The mysterious man,Ryukama, Unite My Rice, 22Easy, Mickey1940,SunDaGamer)

Beerus:2 (RapidMotorcycle19, Gargoyle One?)

inconclusive:1 (Frieza force soldier 100)
 
Beerus should win this in my opinion.


Nothing has changed in the relationship Beerus has with the mortals. Beerus is stronger than all 12 of the Gods, and Jiren is only above Belmond in terms of raw power level.

Nothing really states that Jiren is above the other Gods expecially the only God that can go into Ultra Instinct at will.

Beerus also has Hakai and Sealing


But most importantly Beerus can oneshot a mastered SsjB Vegeta, who is equal to mastered Ssjb Goku who Jiren cannot oneshot by any means.
 
Unite My Rice said:
it's simply inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Then you can't use an inconsistency to determine a character's power. It's an outlier then.

In every single one of Dyspo's fights he gets matched or outmatched by SSG/SSB tier characters. Every single one of Dyspo's fights except one can be seen by the GoDs. Every single fight with characters explicitly faster than Dyspo can be seen by the GoDs.

Claiming that Dyspo is vastly above GoDs and comparable to Angels based on one instance that every other showing contradicts is incredibly disingenous.
 
InfiniteBlack123 said:
Beerus should win this in my opinion.


Nothing has changed in the relationship Beerus has with the mortals. Beerus is stronger than all 12 of the Gods, and Jiren is only above Belmond in terms of raw power level.

Nothing really states that Jiren is above the other Gods expecially the only God that can go into Ultra Instinct at will.

Beerus also has Hakai and Sealing


But most importantly Beerus can oneshot a mastered SsjB Vegeta, who is equal to mastered Ssjb Goku who Jiren cannot oneshot by any means.
Click to expand...
thats not even true. Jiren one-shotted a mastered ssb level opponent when he felt the need to in the manga. And thats flawed logic, as the plot just doesnt allow it. In fact, jiren was effortlessly repelling TWO mastered ssb level opponents, Tanked a kamehameha like if it was air hitting him, and he swatted goku aside like if he was a fly. Jirens feats in the manga are at least about the same as beerus one-shotting vegeta when he stopped playing around.

Beerus hasnt been stated beyond the rest of the hakaishins, and the manga didnt even make it seem that way after chapter 28, which made every other god look amazing as well. Beerus was paralyzed by runshees roar, was trapped by belmods energy orbs, and was clearly extremely battle damaged, as was every other god (except for belmod, cause he was being clever) (and im also not going to say belmod is above beerus, cause obviously tgere is no proof of that)

Jiren isnt ONLY above belmod in battle power, he is above him, period. Thats why the rumor is that a hakaishin cant defeat jiren. The words toppo used in the manga "in terms of battle power alone", means he was just bringing up his battle power, not that jiren is inferior in everything else except battle power.

Beerus has a shitty UI in the manga compared to even gokus UI omen. Jiren is able to casually go toe-to-toe with an ultra instinct omen user. And even then, he could power up further once goku started to complete the form. Also, the anime has stated that the gods have trouble entering said state, which means that they actually can enter UI-omen, but its hard for them. So beerus is most likely not the only one who can do it.

Hakai... we really bringing this up... pretty sure if that was the case then we wouldnt have a god of destruction unable to defeat jiren. And we have showings of someone completely making it useless by simply overpowering it (although with lots of effort)

The sealing technique for sealing zamasu was about whis using it. Someone already showed a screen cap of it. Beerus own sealing technique has sealed the old kai only as far as we know.

And like the guy above me said, we are using anime version only. The manga has barely started the actual climax. And for all we know, jiren might be able to finger flick a MSSB later on the line.

Beerus inst on a pedestal anymore. We have 11 other gods like him, and based on his previous fight with champa, we know that at least one of them can fight him on roughly equal terms.


Btw, to who ever is keeping up with votes, Mines goes to jiren.
 
We dont know if belmod is stronger than jiren. But there are other thing that makes some people believe non-limit breaking jiren is stronger than beerus
 
Votes so far:

Jiren: 12 (The 2nd Existential Seed, Iapitus The Impaler, Aeyu, Theglassman12, Cropfist, The mysterious man,Ryukama, Unite My Rice, 22Easy, Mickey1940,SunDaGamer,Noahkaismith )

Beerus:2 (RapidMotorcycle19, Gargoyle One?)

inconclusive:1 (Frieza force soldier 100)
 
Based on what's been shown and how its been presented I would say jiren wins due to a somewhat higher ap and durability etc. Although honestly knowing how toriyama works beerus will have his own limit breaking power if pushed to his limits or enraged. So I'm still kind of unsure for now, I'll just say inconclusive.
 
If it means full power then why not FP? And you said they were both FB at the start so how is this base jiren? Anyway if it is base jiren against full power beerus then beerus wins with high difficulty via hakai and also having possible slight edge in ap, speed, etc. He may even have a ui form similar to omen.
 
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