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Jiren vs Beerus
- Thread starter ZERO7772
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- beerus dragon ball jiren
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Beerus's Hakai is... eh. In the manga, it's shown that it can effect beings on a higher level than the user, as Goku used it on Fused Zamasu (I know, different canon, but if we really want to know, we should examine this stuff from every angle). It is said that it cannot destroy immortals though, implying that while it could erase Zamasu, he would just rematerialize. This was also implied in the anime by Goku's comment and Whis' response. Of course, it being able to work on someone stronger than the user when used by a non GoD fighter does not mean it can work on someone who is equal to the GoDs in power. It almost certainly wouldn't work on zeno given how afraid everyone is of him. We have no way of knowing if it would work on the GoDs or angels though. I remember Beerus saying to Champa "If you weren't my brother, I'd destroy you", but that may have been a dub line. Toppo's Energy of Destruction was resisted by Vegeta, though this may have been because Toppo was inexperienced.
Jiren is confirmed to be stronger than Beerus and Fused Zamasu by Akira referring to him as the strongest opponent in DB history, so it all comes down to if Beerus could Hakai or seal Jiren. Otherwise, Jiren is the clear winner. We don't really know how Beerus' sealing technique works, and we don't know if Hakai works on GoD level people, so I vote inconclusive.
Jiren is confirmed to be stronger than Beerus and Fused Zamasu by Akira referring to him as the strongest opponent in DB history, so it all comes down to if Beerus could Hakai or seal Jiren. Otherwise, Jiren is the clear winner. We don't really know how Beerus' sealing technique works, and we don't know if Hakai works on GoD level people, so I vote inconclusive.
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Anyways 3rd Ultra Instinct Omen was stated to have maybe surpassed Beerus. This means super, duper suppressed Jiren or GoD Toppo being on Beerus's level is a no. However since Jiren after he breaks his limits is much stronger than 3rd UIO, he should also be stronger than Beerus. There's also the fact that Jiren is officially stated to be the mightiest foe in DB history, which should include Beerus since he was like the main antagonist and foe of DBS's first arc.
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Jiren was handling 3rd UI omen goku somewhat well. So if beerus in that promotional poster was thinking that goku could have surpassed him, then jiren can very well be able to take on beerus and win. Tho it may not be an easy win as 3rd UI omen goku was very close to jirens full power.
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@aeyu
1. I know he wasen't talking about fusion zamasu. My point was that being immortal wouldnt matter to beerus. Sense even after hearing that zamasu got immortality with the super dragonballs he said he could "easily" destroy him. So if infinite zamasu's immortality wont help him then he's getting hakaied. The only reason he didnt do that in the future is because a timering is created when he hakais zamasu, so he had to seal.
2. If I remember correctly whis said that the sealing technique that beerus has is superior to the mafuba in 67. So that would mean it could seal stronger opponents than the user, sense roshi was able to use it against frost. But like I said going by dragonball logic jiren could possibly flex his way out. But thats the thing we never seen him flex his way out of sealing. So imo its more fair to say it would work than to say it wouldn't.
1. I know he wasen't talking about fusion zamasu. My point was that being immortal wouldnt matter to beerus. Sense even after hearing that zamasu got immortality with the super dragonballs he said he could "easily" destroy him. So if infinite zamasu's immortality wont help him then he's getting hakaied. The only reason he didnt do that in the future is because a timering is created when he hakais zamasu, so he had to seal.
2. If I remember correctly whis said that the sealing technique that beerus has is superior to the mafuba in 67. So that would mean it could seal stronger opponents than the user, sense roshi was able to use it against frost. But like I said going by dragonball logic jiren could possibly flex his way out. But thats the thing we never seen him flex his way out of sealing. So imo its more fair to say it would work than to say it wouldn't.
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MSSB Goku and Fused Zamasu, both were on the same level in the manga. Goku was holding his own against Zamasu, the only reason he wanted to end it quickly was due to the strain on his body.Frieza force soldier 100 said:
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@Zero
As I said, it takes more assumption to say he's weaker than Belmod than it does to say he's comparable, especially when the show essentially supports the latter. Using the "charging up" argument is also essentially invalid, since he was later shown to be able to use Hakai energy in a rapid-fire succession.
@Ryu
I'm pretty sure this was stated about Goku when he first achieved UIS, but I'll have to find the scan.
@Meerkat
Beerus didn't have the sealing technique, Whis did. Beerus was never going to be the one to go into the past. And as I said, Goku, who can sense God ki and could tell how powerful GP was, said even Beerus couldn't beat an immortal Zamasu.
As I said, it takes more assumption to say he's weaker than Belmod than it does to say he's comparable, especially when the show essentially supports the latter. Using the "charging up" argument is also essentially invalid, since he was later shown to be able to use Hakai energy in a rapid-fire succession.
@Ryu
I'm pretty sure this was stated about Goku when he first achieved UIS, but I'll have to find the scan.
@Meerkat
Beerus didn't have the sealing technique, Whis did. Beerus was never going to be the one to go into the past. And as I said, Goku, who can sense God ki and could tell how powerful GP was, said even Beerus couldn't beat an immortal Zamasu.
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For now,Beerus can beat IZ.He is low2-C only because he can beat him.
It is not my opinion(i am against it),majority of people agreed that Beerus>IZ.
It is not my opinion(i am against it),majority of people agreed that Beerus>IZ.
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@Dzhind
Beerus isn't Low 2-C scaling off IZ necessarily, he scales to Jiren and Toppo, the former being the one who scales to IZ. It's not really known if Beerus could defeat IZ or not, but I tend to think he can't due to Goku's comment which was not denied by Whis, but supported.
Beerus isn't Low 2-C scaling off IZ necessarily, he scales to Jiren and Toppo, the former being the one who scales to IZ. It's not really known if Beerus could defeat IZ or not, but I tend to think he can't due to Goku's comment which was not denied by Whis, but supported.
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Jiren>IZ is outlier without backing it up with Beerus being stronger than IZ.
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@ovrhide No one in dragonball have shown resistance to sealing with raw power. So beerus should logically be able to seal jiren. Especially sense the version of jiren being used isnt too much stronger than beerus, and roshi could use the mafuba on people who were much stronger than him, aka frost.
@Aeyu -"Beerus didn't have the sealing technique, whis did." Lmao what? https://youtu.be/W8Vd-u8XQE4
-No, whis went to the future to tell beerus to deal with zamasu, whis never did the sealing himself. https://youtu.be/DnlffC0GdB0
-Like I mentioned goku said that as a question, which means he wasen't sure if beerus could or not. But from the words of beerus himself, he said that he can "easily" destroy immortal zamasu. So zamasu's immortality wont help him at all. The only reason they sealed was because a timering is created from zamasu's destruction.
@Aeyu -"Beerus didn't have the sealing technique, whis did." Lmao what? https://youtu.be/W8Vd-u8XQE4
-No, whis went to the future to tell beerus to deal with zamasu, whis never did the sealing himself. https://youtu.be/DnlffC0GdB0
-Like I mentioned goku said that as a question, which means he wasen't sure if beerus could or not. But from the words of beerus himself, he said that he can "easily" destroy immortal zamasu. So zamasu's immortality wont help him at all. The only reason they sealed was because a timering is created from zamasu's destruction.
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- Thread starter
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Nothing in the story suggest than anyone is above IZ beside shin comment that Jiren is above anyone they faced before "and shin is not trusted worthy source at all"
We just scaled everyone and their mother to Zamasu back in the thread based on stuff like Beerus reaction to Zamasu and few comments here and there, according to the source above Beerus should be around 3rd UIO
We just scaled everyone and their mother to Zamasu back in the thread based on stuff like Beerus reaction to Zamasu and few comments here and there, according to the source above Beerus should be around 3rd UIO
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Beerus isnt sealing jiren. We arent even taking beerus sealing into this because there is no evidence that it works on people stronger or equal to him. This is going to be the same as the hakai. Most of us thought that it was a technique that works no matter the opponents power, and now we know thats not the case in db. The sealing technique is probably the same. Its even possible that all hakaishins have acces to it as well, and i doubt beerus could seal a hakaishin as well.
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@Meerkat
Except the method to seal an immortal Zamasu wasn't the Z-Sword sealing technique, and shouldn't be assumed to be when there's literally no support in favor of that.
And yes, but as I said before, that's only in relation to his Kaioshin self. And not only does Goku throw that into question with his comment, Vegeta implies right afterward that even if Beerus *did* destroy Zamasu, it would be a "repeat of before", implying that Infinite Zamasu is definitely not something Beerus could deal with.
Please stop giving invalid arguments.
Except the method to seal an immortal Zamasu wasn't the Z-Sword sealing technique, and shouldn't be assumed to be when there's literally no support in favor of that.
And yes, but as I said before, that's only in relation to his Kaioshin self. And not only does Goku throw that into question with his comment, Vegeta implies right afterward that even if Beerus *did* destroy Zamasu, it would be a "repeat of before", implying that Infinite Zamasu is definitely not something Beerus could deal with.
Please stop giving invalid arguments.
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Vegeta stated Jiren had the most powerful energy he's ever felt.
Goku stated that Jiren's attack were the strongest he's ever taken.
Jiren is literally called the mighties foe in DB history which includes Zamasu.
Goku stated that Jiren's attack were the strongest he's ever taken.
Jiren is literally called the mighties foe in DB history which includes Zamasu.
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@Aeyu -Whis still said he gonna get beerus to deal with zamasu. So regardless it was beerus doing the sealing. Also it could still be the way beerus did it on elder kai. Whis just said they had something better than the urn. Which a solid object like the z sword would be better.
-Ethier way his immortality is the same. Its irrelevant if he's stronger. When vegeta says "it will be a repeat of before" I get the immpresion he talking about the timering being created. Sense he's talking about if the hakai worked and what happened before was a timering being created.
@ovrhide
If the mafuba can seal someone who's millions of times stronger than the user. Then I dont see why beerus couldnt seal someone who is by no means much stronger than him. Plus beerus's sealing is much better than the mafuba sense elder kai described it as happening "in a blink of an eye" while the mafuba takes alot more time, and he can seal people in solid objects. Then like I mentioned, no one in dragonball has flexed their way out of sealing yet.
-Ethier way his immortality is the same. Its irrelevant if he's stronger. When vegeta says "it will be a repeat of before" I get the immpresion he talking about the timering being created. Sense he's talking about if the hakai worked and what happened before was a timering being created.
@ovrhide
If the mafuba can seal someone who's millions of times stronger than the user. Then I dont see why beerus couldnt seal someone who is by no means much stronger than him. Plus beerus's sealing is much better than the mafuba sense elder kai described it as happening "in a blink of an eye" while the mafuba takes alot more time, and he can seal people in solid objects. Then like I mentioned, no one in dragonball has flexed their way out of sealing yet.
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Yes Jiren was stated to be greater than or equal to GoD level back when he was ridiculously suppressed in episode 110. But this is clearly contradicted by the fact that 3rd Ultra Instinct Omen only "maybe" surpassed Beerus and that GoD Toppo, who is stronger than this ridiculously suppressed Jiren, is still weaker than Beerus.Aeyu said:
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Yes Jiren was stated to be greater than or equal to GoD level back when he was ridiculously suppressed in episode 110. But this is clearly contradicted by the fact that 3rd Ultra Instinct Omen only "maybe" surpassed Beerus and that GoD Toppo, who is stronger than this ridiculously suppressed Jiren, is still weaker than Beerus.
It wasnt contradicted, if people really think about it. Before that statement, whis knew that jiren was "far from full power" and knowing that he estimated that he was at God of destruction level, or even beyond it. I think its people coming to the conclusion that jiren was at hakaishin level while suppressed, which honestly would be rediculous concidering how much jiren was holding back.
It wasnt contradicted, if people really think about it. Before that statement, whis knew that jiren was "far from full power" and knowing that he estimated that he was at God of destruction level, or even beyond it. I think its people coming to the conclusion that jiren was at hakaishin level while suppressed, which honestly would be rediculous concidering how much jiren was holding back.
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Damn, I hate it when people bring up the IZ>Jiren argument over and over again. This is ridiculous. The writer and the show want to convey something with repeated statements but people just won't believe it unless they see Jiren overpowering Zamasu with their own eyes. This is "Goku is not universal because we didn't see him destroy the universe" argument all over again.
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OBD does that IIRC. But here, you don't get resistance unless you have shown it on screen. Also, we know that most of the hax/resistance work differently in DB, but we apply the standards of other fictions in DB. I don't necessarily agree with most of it but meh.MeerkatOverlord said:
That's enough derailment though.
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I think you guys are missing something important. Killing was prohibited in the tournament. Those continuous Hakai spam by Toppo were likely not lethal.
There's nothing a hakaishin cannot destroy (with the exception of Angels & Zeno obviously)
Jiren should beat Beerus with his huge AP & Speed advantage. But to say that a lethal hakai won't do anyhing to him is an overstatement.
There's nothing a hakaishin cannot destroy (with the exception of Angels & Zeno obviously)
Jiren should beat Beerus with his huge AP & Speed advantage. But to say that a lethal hakai won't do anyhing to him is an overstatement.
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That scan is out of context and misleading.
There was a direct order from Belmod that Toppo should erase all of Vegeta's attack. The hakai ball Vegeta punched through was aimed to destroy Vegeta's attacks but he still punched through it. And these hakai balls had EE property as they were erasing parts of the arena.
Later, Toppo unleashes a full powered Hakai which Vegeta overpowered with his ki. Since characters have shown to resist EE just by overpowering it, Jiren should be fine, unless Beerus has a feat where he hakais a massively stronger opponent.
There was a direct order from Belmod that Toppo should erase all of Vegeta's attack. The hakai ball Vegeta punched through was aimed to destroy Vegeta's attacks but he still punched through it. And these hakai balls had EE property as they were erasing parts of the arena.
Later, Toppo unleashes a full powered Hakai which Vegeta overpowered with his ki. Since characters have shown to resist EE just by overpowering it, Jiren should be fine, unless Beerus has a feat where he hakais a massively stronger opponent.
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