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Itachi's sword upgrade
- Thread starter Stryker861
- Start date
- 4,209
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Agree
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Why wasn't snake dudes soul sucked out when it cut off the snake heads but only when he got pierced by it?
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It verbatim says when it “pierces” you, you get trapped in a Genjutsu. Slashes and pierces are two different forms of melee.
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So, looking at the Durability Negation page, the sealing jutsu itself could be said to have durability negation due to this criteria:
Soul Manipulation - Those who manipulate souls, can bypass conventional durability. It can be resisted only by the strength of the soul. However, such attacks are effective only on those who have souls. Also, if for some reason soul manipulation fails, then this ability is completely futile.
So the sealing jutsu that it activates has that kind of durability negation. But I do not believe there's any real evidence that the Totsuka blade itself, which must successfully attack someone to activate the jutsu, can ignore durability. Rather, Naruto verse in general just tends to have no piercing resistance. Walk up to a Kage with a kunai and chances are you can indeed stab him and make him bleed regardless of what his tier is.
So with that said, if we specify that it's soul manipulation (because it traps the victim in a genjutsu), then I'd accept that.
Soul Manipulation - Those who manipulate souls, can bypass conventional durability. It can be resisted only by the strength of the soul. However, such attacks are effective only on those who have souls. Also, if for some reason soul manipulation fails, then this ability is completely futile.
So the sealing jutsu that it activates has that kind of durability negation. But I do not believe there's any real evidence that the Totsuka blade itself, which must successfully attack someone to activate the jutsu, can ignore durability. Rather, Naruto verse in general just tends to have no piercing resistance. Walk up to a Kage with a kunai and chances are you can indeed stab him and make him bleed regardless of what his tier is.
So with that said, if we specify that it's soul manipulation (because it traps the victim in a genjutsu), then I'd accept that.
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I strongly disagree. I don't think the fact that it's said to lack physical form means it "damages things on a spiritual level" and such a concept isn't even meaningfully clarified in the verse. It's not like "if you get hit enough times, regardless of the physical damage it does to your body, it will do enough damage to your soul/spirit that you die!" It just seals you in a genjutsu, which isn't 'damage' in the traditional sense. We can't assume that just because of the description.
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The issue is that it isn't bypassing any durability in any of the scans. I can agree with limited soul manip with the blade but not the durability part. Also yeah need better stab resistance.
- 7,720
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Well, Soul Manipulation is treated as a form of durability negation unto itself, but I am not sure if "putting someone in a mental illusory state" should really be considered durability negation or even soul manipulation. Like, is genjutsu usually considered soul manip? If not, then yeah I'd say none of this is really durability negation.
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Wait you got a point cause i thought it was sealing only the soul not the whole body and shit.
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The soul gets trapped in a Genjutsu world, the Soul Manipulation and Durability Negation here is the fact of affecting body and soul together.
- 7,720
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We have to be really specific here. Why are we assuming the soul specifically gets trapped in a genjutsu world? Do we generally on the wiki think of genjutsu as targetting a person's soul? I understand it's an illusion, but I do not believe it's acceptable to default to seeing illusion attacks as "soul-affecting" without a specific reason to do so.
What does it do to affect the body?
- 7,720
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Does that mean we interpret all genjutsu as being dura neg, nor no? I could see the case that it technically is, but I think such an interpretation violates the spirit of what durability negation is meant to represent in context.
Arkenis
They/Them- 15,135
- 6,635
What dude the sword is the reason its dura neg, it attacks on a spiritual level. But dura neg doesn't need to be mentioned as soul manip already covers that. Ofc for spiritual beings this is different.
Arkenis
They/Them- 15,135
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What exactly is being argued when bringing up the matchless and perfect attack statement and what is being suggested when bringing this up?
- 7,720
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What evidence do we have that it attacks on a spiritual level? As far as feats go, it appears to just be a regular sword that has a sealing jutsu. Also, again, what is the evidence for soul manipulation? Thats the discussion still being had about whether genjutsu is soul manip, but it doesn't appear to be.
Arkenis
They/Them- 15,135
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It is called a spiritual weapon and can effect one's soul. What more do we need? And its both genjutsu and soul manip with sealing as well. None of this contradicts btw.
Sword: Sucks soul into its gourd (soul manipulation) sealing them inside (sealing) and genjutsuing them
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Can it affect someone's soul?
Does it suck their soul into the gourd or their entire body?
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Read the OP's first scan: "Souls sucked out by the sword are sealed inside". The databook itself says that souls are sealed, and Itachi sealed Nagato's soul there, Nagato was an Edo Tensei and could only be stopped if they directly affected his soul. Genjutsu can affect spiritual beings, Obito managed to put Genjutsu in Kurama inside Kushina, when it is sealed, the bijuu is in spiritual form. But that doesn't mean that all Genjutsu do this, just the ones that have been shown to do so.
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Okay. OP's first scan is blocked for me so I cannot see it. But if it says that then I am fine with soul manipulation
Arkenis
They/Them- 15,135
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It tells us it does that. But we also see the body sucked in as well, so its both.
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Ehhh that makes it kinda iffy for me.
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But each time it's shown to be used it sucks the body in too.
Arkenis
They/Them- 15,135
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where is the iffy part? it can be spiritual and physical sealing, as shown.
- 7,720
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Yeah but like, barring extenuating circumstances, souls and bodies are kind of a package deal regardless.
Arkenis
They/Them- 15,135
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What do u mean?
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I mean like, if you suck someone's entire body into a gourd, you would expect that the soul is coming with, too, unless the ability specifically separates body and soul. I'm not sure such an ability really qualifies as soul manipulation just for trapping someone in a gourd. That'd be like saying Kamui is soul manipulation because it puts someone soul and body in the pocket dimension.
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your resources are good , I agree
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I guess this is a condition that exists in ginkaku and kinkaku
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- Thread starter
- #110
you cant just walk up to somebody in naruto and stab them with a kunai if you dont have the ap bruh. examples- orange mask obito tanking suigetsus sword, orochimaru unable to peirce 4 tails naruto, sasukes lighting style sword bouncing off the raikage with his v1 state amp.
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- Thread starter
- #111
votes should be updated so far. let me know if missed someone
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- Thread starter
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I would also like to mention Black zetsu saw the big fight between hashirama and Madara. meaning he also saw the perfect susanoo wrapped nine tails. Even with this knowledge he still thinks Itachi with both the yata mirror and totska blade is invisible. This would mean that he believes that the totska blade would be able to do damage to madaras Susanoo, which is rated as small country-country level on this site. Zetsus use of the word invincible backs up this description that these weapons are supposed to be matchless in what they do. A perfect shield that can block any attack, with a perfect offense in the form of a sword that can cut anything which is extremely consistent plus stated. I want some of you guys to ask yourselves something. Why would the perfect offense have such a basic weakness of relying on the opponents durability like any regular weapon.
And another thing Itachis profile already has on it that the spirit weapons dont have physcal form so im just using something thats already accepted as part as my arguments
And another thing Itachis profile already has on it that the spirit weapons dont have physcal form so im just using something thats already accepted as part as my arguments
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In my opinion this is an incredible reach and this type of reasoning shouldn't be used for upgrades. It's really far-fetched.
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- Thread starter
- #114
id agree that normally it would be a reach but its just to supposed to show consistency for everything else that this blade can cut anyone
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- Thread starter
- #115
So Deagonx so far whats you stance on everything
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- Thread starter
- #116
kaydee do u actually disagree or are u trolling
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I think "lacking physical form" means having no predetermined shape. I doubt these are intangible ghost weapons, as they've demonstrated they at least have mass.
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- Thread starter
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Its stated that the liquid that spills from the gourd turns into the blade so it does resemble a shape when in use as we see. what do u mean when you say they have mass?
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My argument wasn't that because the Totsuka Blade was stated to lack "physical form" it means it's innately bypassing conventional durability, that had nothing to do with my claim at all.
What i'm asserting is that since the Totsuka Blade is stated multiple times to be a "spiritual weapon", it's by its own fundamental nature, capable of interacting with and damaging spiritual entities, similar how an attack that exist entirely as a concept could, by its own fundamental nature, interact with conceptual entities (of course within limit).
It doesn't need to be "meaningfully clarified" in the verse, it's a spiritual weapon, things which exist on a spiritual level, by definition, can interact with objects which exist on a spiritual level, generally speaking, since both objects exist on the same fundamental level, similar how a solid object within our world can interact with another since both are constructed of the same fundamental matter as each other.
Also the fact it's directly shown to cause damage, such as slicing the heads off of Orochimaru's Hydra, implies that in-fact it does "damage" people in the traditional sense, the drunken world is just a separate affect from the baseline, inherent abilities that swords have, like the ability to cut things.
However i don't necessarily believe that Totsuka Blade should have Soul Manipulation either since the lack of direct evidence of Totsuka Blade being capable of killing spiritual entities, there's precedence sure, such as the existence of it being capable of damaging objects, like cutting the heads off of Oro's Hydra, which when applied to a soul, most likely would kill it. But that's only an assumption, not concrete nor inherent fact, so i would advocate for something like this.
"Non-Physical Interaction", Possibly "Soul Manipulation" (Insert Reasoning)
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