Itachi vs Gojo

[Kin201]

Either Itachi genjutsu's or Gojo domain expansion's GG.

Whoever is faster wins.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Feel like I need to clarify this since it seems like speedster doesn’t actually read JJK, but this 0.2 domain isn’t something Gojo does all the time, idk why it’s being discussed as a standard here when he does it to lessen his domains effect on civilians. And domains speed is not blitzing someone with precog, especially not precog like the sharingan, I’ve already brought this up but all major cursed techniques have an ignition of curse energy that happens before it activates this makes evasion a lot easier.



In response to Speedster talking about not being able to see curse energy, it simply exist as a second light, you can look at the curse energy page, the sharingan seeing chakra as different colors, being able to see invisible beings like spirits would make ce very apparent to them.

And a simple shushin would allow Itachi to evade Gojo’s domain. Gojo doesn’t normally expand his domain far unless he needs to, which in this situation he has zero reason to expand it far. Also considering this is only bloodlusted, SBA would have the range being 4km asfaik.

The duration of the Domain and the casting speed are independent of one another. Typically, Domains are casted (As in the occupy an area) faster than an opponent can react and thus escape the area of effect. The speed at which a Domain fills an area must be faster than 0.2 seconds for the ability of the domain to still be in affect by the time it reaches its full diameter. You could argue the casting speed to be faster given it can expand faster than even subsonic people can react to it (or people with verbatim stated subsonic speeds such as 0.01 seconds). Think of 0.2 seconds as a minimum.

To do a quick calculation as reference of the DE's minimum speed compared to the user:

Average shoulder width of a man = 41cm

Again, for lowball sake, I'll assume there's literally zero space between people in the 5'th floor of the Shibuya station when Gojo used his Domain Expansion despite the fact there clearly was. I used this calculator.

The absolute smallest diameter of the circle to contain 1000 people (Keep in mind this is a lowball as this is only the stated number of transfigured humans. Not normal humans) would be 46.33 meters. 41cm is a lowball in and of itself since the transfigured humans look to be a lot bigger than normal humans anyway.

23.165/0.2 = 115.825 m/s

This calculation assumes 0.2 seconds from a normal humans perception, meaning for the sake of this calc, we'll assume the speed of the fighters is lowered to that of a normal human. About 5 m/s.

115.825/5 = 23.165x faster even with a bunch of liberties taken that substantially lower the result (Such as being packed in an a circular area which has the least surface area and assuming there's zero space between each person).

Having precog doesn't prevent you from being blitzed by such a huge difference. But it would let you anticipate and react before it comes out. But if the opponent is close by, then unless that person has some speed amp to get out in time, then they will still be caught in the attack.

It'd be like saying that since you can see someone is about to launch a Mach 100, 10 kilometer diameter attack in 2 seconds you can escape in time. Spoiler Alert: You would not have CLOSE to enough time to run away before the attack occurs with your speed. Unless of course you either

A. Have far higher travel speed than you combat speed
B. Can teleport that distance
C. Can like an hour into the future and thus can act way earlier (Or if the explosion has a charge-up time comparable to an hour)

Now, I don't know how good Itachi's precog is or if he has any speed-amps, but unless it's some really good precog that can forsee an entire battle before it occurs and thus know to maintain his distance or speed amps, or teleportation, he will be caught in Domain Expansion.

If the gap wasn't clear: Recall that 0.2 seconds is the average reaction time of a person. Since speed is equalized, this would be applicable to the fighters (Since it'd be 0.2 seconds from their perspective). So to find the distance Itachi needs to be away from Gojo to not be caught by his Domain we can solve for distance. Which is Speed x Time.

115.825*0.2 = 23.165 meters

This means Itachi needs to be over 23 meters away from Gojo to even be fast enough to react to it. Anything under would quite literally be faster than Itachi can react to it. And that's with the Domain manifestation/casting speed being severely lowballed for the sake of conservation. Gojo typically uses Domain Expansion against opponents within 10 meters of him.

And even if Itachi was 24 meters away for example, that only means he'd have enough time to react to it (meaning the distance needed to process that it's even there). If Gojo chose for it to cover 100 meters, he'd still need to worry about outrunning the expansion, which isn't possible since it's 23x faster than Itachi.

 

[LaserPrecision]

In response to Speedster talking about not being able to see curse energy, it simply exist as a second light, you can look at the curse energy page, the sharingan seeing chakra as different colors, being able to see invisible beings like spirits would make ce very apparent to them.

Another thing I would like to note; being able to see esoteric things such as life-force or spirits (or anything esoteric) wouldn't mean you can see things that are invisible due to scientific phenomena such as existing between wavelengths of light not perceptible to the normal human eye.

They would need the ability to see all wavelengths of light on the spectrum (Such as X-Ray, Ultraviolet, Microwaves, Radiowaves, etc.), and even then that may not be enough since Cursed Spirits are described as another light entirely.

Cursed Spirits are invisible either due to them being made of abstract feelings/fear, because they exist as an entirely unique wavelength of light, or perhaps both. It's likely the latter based on Geto's explanation on the profile, but it could possibly be the result of the two. Either way, you'd need a feat of being able to perceive every wavelength of light including ones not included in the currently known ones.

 

[Uzukeas]

The duration of the Domain and the casting speed are independent of one another. Typically, Domains are casted (As in the occupy an area) faster than an opponent can react and thus escape the area of effect. The speed at which a Domain fills an area must be faster than 0.2 seconds for the ability of the domain to still be in affect by the time it reaches its full diameter. You could argue the casting speed to be faster given it can expand faster than even subsonic people can react to it (or people with verbatim stated subsonic speeds such as 0.01 seconds). Think of 0.2 seconds as a minimum.

Here, Also, you’re forgetting the fact that Itachi only requires a glance at Gojos eyes for the fight to be over, or for one look at Gojo in order to burn him to death in an instant due to Amaterasu.
Putting you down as a vote for Gojo?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Here, Also, you’re forgetting the fact that Itachi only requires a glance at Gojos eyes for the fight to be over, or for one look at Gojo in order to burn him to death in an instant due to Amaterasu.
Putting you down as a vote for Gojo?

Oh, no. As I said in my first comment, I'm not here to vote or debate. I was mostly here to clarify on the abilities of Gojo. That's it.

 

[speedster352]

Here, Also, you’re forgetting the fact that Itachi only requires a glance at Gojos eyes for the fight to be over, or for one look at Gojo in order to burn him to death in an instant due to Amaterasu.
Putting you down as a vote for Gojo?

Gojo can just regen from Amaterasu he scales above hikari who survived the heat of lightning. Bloodlusted Gojo starts off with unlimited void and since itachi can’t see cursed techniques(established by laser) it’s landing. And gg

 

[Uzukeas]

Gojo can just regen from Amaterasu he scales above hikari who survived the heat of lightning. Bloodlusted Gojo starts off with unlimited void and since itachi can’t see cursed techniques(established by laser) it’s landing. And gg

The Amaterasu should be considered an island level attack, or mountain level considering Itachis tier, so Itachi would one shot Gojo upon activation of Amaterasu.
Gonna wait for any Naruto supporters to see if Itachi can see Gojos techniques.

Plus, Itachi has a much easier wincon cause Gojo will most likely look into his eyes while doing the DE,

 

[Arkenis]

Another thing I would like to note; being able to see esoteric things such as life-force or spirits (or anything esoteric) wouldn't mean you can see things that are invisible due to scientific phenomena such as existing between wavelengths of light not perceptible to the normal human eye.

They would need the ability to see all wavelengths of light on the spectrum (Such as X-Ray, Ultraviolet, Microwaves, Radiowaves, etc.), and even then that may not be enough since Cursed Spirits are described as another light entirely.

Cursed Spirits are invisible either due to them being made of abstract feelings/fear, because they exist as an entirely unique wavelength of light, or perhaps both. It's likely the latter based on Geto's explanation on the profile, but it could possibly be the result of the two. Either way, you'd need a feat of being able to perceive every wavelength of light including ones not included in the currently known ones.

My guy he literally says they exist within the wavelength of visible light and simply exist as a second light, you do not need to see all those to see them. You're stretching their invisibility beyond what's specified.

Itachi can see invisible people, the king of hell which is only visible to the caster, chakra as different colors and see through walls as well. This is enough to see something that only exist as a second light. Furthermore, people have been able to see cursed spirits by being in certain areas with negative emotions and can see them when facing death, in this situation Itachi would see Gojo's domain easily.

Gojo can just regen from Amaterasu he scales above hikari who survived the heat of lightning. Bloodlusted Gojo starts off with unlimited void and since itachi can’t see cursed techniques(established by laser) it’s landing. And gg

Small correction but the heat isn't what really matters here, also Hakari didn't survive the heat of lightning, he got destroyed by the lightning's power. But regardless Itachi can simply target the head, having superior ap it would destroy Gojo's head before he could regenerate in time.

 

[Uzukeas]

Sorry this is one of my first versus threads.
How much votes do we need to have before it goes into grace?

 

[Arkenis]

Sorry this is one of my first versus threads.
How much votes do we need to have before it goes into grace?

7 votes are needed and the other needs to be less than 5 for grace I believe?

 

[speedster352]

The Amaterasu should be considered an island level attack, or mountain level considering Itachis tier, so Itachi would one shot Gojo upon activation of Amaterasu.
Gonna wait for any Naruto supporters to see if Itachi can see Gojos techniques.

Plus, Itachi has a much easier wincon cause Gojo will most likely look into his eyes while doing the DE,

They are far away so the odds of him looking in itachi eyes is slim also DE won’t disappear after be launched so it could be incon.

 

[speedster352]

My guy he literally says they exist within the wavelength of visible light and simply exist as a second light, you do not need to see all those to see them. You're stretching their invisibility beyond what's specified.

Itachi can see invisible people, the king of hell which is only visible to the caster, chakra as different colors and see through walls as well. This is enough to see something that only exist as a second light. Furthermore, people have been able to see cursed spirits by being in certain areas with negative emotions and can see them when facing death, in this situation Itachi would see Gojo's domain easily.


Small correction but the heat isn't what really matters here, also Hakari didn't survive the heat of lightning, he got destroyed by the lightning's power. But regardless Itachi can simply target the head, having superior ap it would destroy Gojo's head before he could regenerate in time.

Curse energy is an abstraction not just invisible read the verse page. Again UV affects are instant look at the jogo fight sand sukuna vs Gojo you can’t dodge it’s effects and would itachi dodge something like DE at all or try and use Genjutsu if it’s the latter then it’s incon.

 

[Arkenis]

Curse energy is an abstraction not just invisible read the verse page. Again UV affects are instant look at the jogo fight sand sukuna vs Gojo you can’t dodge it’s effects and would itachi dodge something like DE at all or try and use Genjutsu if it’s the latter then it’s incon.

They aren't invisible because they are abstractions, that isn't even what's said. Yeah UV's guaranteed hit is instant sure but the domain still needs to expand is the point here. What's incon about him genjutsuing Gojo?

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Doesn't Genjutsu needs a travel to reach an opponent? Genjutsu is a manipulation of chakra in brain, so the user need to send the chakra into opponent's brain, doesn' it?

 

[Arkenis]

Doesn't Genjutsu needs a travel to reach an opponent? Genjutsu is a manipulation of chakra in brain, so the user need to send the chakra into opponent's brain, doesn' it?

Never seen the scan for this, I did find though Jiraiya explaining that regular genjutsu controls the chakra flow through the opponents cranial nerves.

From what I know, Ocular genjutsu is what needs to travel to pour one's chakra into the opponent.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Never seen the scan for this, I did find though Jiraiya explaining that regular genjutsu controls the chakra flow through the opponents cranial nerves.

From what I know, Ocular genjutsu is what needs to travel to pour one's chakra into the opponent.

Yeah, that's what i mean, so it qualifies for Infinity to be filtering it, considering it has a "speed, mass and shape". Even Cursed Energy which more abstract than Chakra unable to pass through Infinity

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

In fact, a sorcerer's internal organs are a domain, so any power cannot be manifested directly into the internal organs, which must first be torn open from the outer body. So it's actually limited power nullification listed on the cursed energy manipulation page

 

[Uzukeas]

In fact, a sorcerer's internal organs are a domain, so any power cannot be manifested directly into the internal organs, which must first be torn open from the outer body. So it's actually limited power nullification listed on the cursed energy manipulation page

Amaterasu should still be a viable option nonetheless.

 

[speedster352]

Amaterasu should still be a viable option nonetheless.

But simple domain or DE will powernul that also Gojo can use domain amplification around his body and the fire is gone.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Itachi has no means to bypass limitless.

Itachi has no means to resist widespread spatial manipulation.

Itachi has no defense to domain expansion.

Gojo wins this easily since Genjutsu won't be an issue.

Voting Gojo

 

[Uzukeas]

But simple domain or DE will powernul that also Gojo can use domain amplification around his body and the fire is gone.

It only negates cursed techniques.
Proof of it being able to negate things other than cursed energy?
Also, a glance is much more easier to set up rather than an entire action including a hand seal.

 

[Uzukeas]

Gojo wins this easily since Genjutsu won't be an issue.

Voting Gojo

Amaterasu bypasses infinity as it does not travel,
Vote counted.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Amaterasu bypasses infinity as it does not travel,
Vote counted.

No it doesn't, you can't spawn something onto Gojo with Infinity in the middle. All other spawn on target attacks have failed on Gojo, including cleave/dismantle and Jogo remotely igniting Gojo's face to the point he was 100% sure he hit Gojo.

BTW Amaterasu does travel, we explicitly see this in the POV of Itachi tagging Sasuke and once again when Gaara literally intercepts Amaterasu with his sand.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

also on top of Amaterasu not bypassing limitless, it would not really effective her except for wasting Itachi's stamina.

Hebi Sasuke and Killer be were able to use replacement jutsu and their pure speed alone to escape Amaterasu. Samurai was saved by Kankuro, and Nagato also used ST to lol blow Amaterasu off of himself. Gojo with his speed, six eyes, and teleportation/spatial manip is not getting negged by Amaterasu, even if it could spawn on him.

 

[Uzukeas]

No it doesn't, you can't spawn something onto Gojo with Infinity in the middle. All other spawn on target attacks have failed on Gojo, including cleave/dismantle and Jogo remotely igniting Gojo's face to the point he was 100% sure he hit Gojo.

Cleave and Dismantle doesn’t spawn as we see it travelling and even manifesting in the manga.
Gojo can even dodge it by seeing Cleave+Dismantles energy forming on sukuna.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Cleave and Dismantle doesn’t spawn as we see it travelling and even manifesting in the manga.
Gojo can even dodge it by seeing Cleave+Dismantles energy forming on sukuna.

Yes it does, it spawns on top of it's target. The travel time we see is after it hits such as when Gojo's infinity blocked it in the beginning of his battle with Sukuna. When did Gojo do that? He used limitless to not be hit by cleave when fighting and it's also the reason he was tagged by Mahoraga's version.

You also ignored the other instances I gave.

I believe I've explained well enough in the past 3 posts why amterasu isn't doing anything here but I will let you collectively respond to them since they are splintered.

 

[Uzukeas]

also on top of Amaterasu not bypassing limitless, it would not really effective her except for wasting Itachi's stamina.

Hebi Sasuke and Killer be were able to use replacement jutsu and their pure speed alone to escape Amaterasu. Samurai was saved by Kankuro, and Nagato also used ST to lol blow Amaterasu off of himself. Gojo with his speed, six eyes, and teleportation/spatial manip is not getting negged by Amaterasu, even if it could spawn on him.

There is a massive AP difference which would literally one shot Gojo if it spawned on him.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

There is a massive AP difference which would literally one shot Gojo if it spawned on him.

A.) AP difference means nothing to limitless. So until it's proved to bypass such, it doesn't mean much. Especially given one of the strongest Amaterasu users couldn't even bypass a simple chakra cloak.

B.) Amaterasu does not insta kill. It kills through prolonged exposure, especially if we are talking about the MS version. Killer Bee escaped, Sasuke escaped (several times), and others have been saved. Gojo has all of the tools to easily escape Amaterasu if it hit him including speed, teleportation, sensing/enhanced sight, attraction/repel, and DA/RCT to nullify/heal for worse case scenario (such as what Ei did vs Amaterasu), where as all of those people did not. Heck, Karin sat there burning for a hot minute and was no where near close to death. Amaterasu is a death sentence if you can't remove the flames .

 

[LaserPrecision]

My guy he literally says they exist within the wavelength of visible light and simply exist as a second light, you do not need to see all those to see them. You're stretching their invisibility beyond what's specified.

Itachi can see invisible people, the king of hell which is only visible to the caster, chakra as different colors and see through walls as well. This is enough to see something that only exist as a second light. Furthermore, people have been able to see cursed spirits by being in certain areas with negative emotions and can see them when facing death, in this situation Itachi would see Gojo's domain easily.

They exist as a second light within the visible light spectrum. Imperceptible to humans. Clearly you'd need the ability to see a secondary light to be able to view it. I stated the ability to see every wavelength of the light spectrum would maybe also suffice.

Prove that being able to see through walls and seeing spirits = seeing a different form of light.

And while people have been able to see curses in life and death situations, there's also numerous times where they haven't. Jogo incinerated people in a restruant without being noticed at all. IIRC, in the Shibuya station, some people couldn't even see the Cursed Spirits. With one dude stating "What are those two talking about" and someone else replying "Don't you mean four?". While they were being massacred they were also holding relatively still or just walking around. Granted maybe the anime changes this?

Either way, equating to seeing something that is invisible due to esoteric reasons like being a spirit isn't the same as seeing in like the X-Ray wavelength (As an example). The two are way different.

Yes it does, it spawns on top of it's target. The travel time we see is after it hits such as when Gojo's infinity blocked it in the beginning of his battle with Sukuna. When did Gojo do that? He used limitless to not be hit by cleave when fighting and it's also the reason he was tagged by Mahoraga's version.

You also ignored the other instances I gave.

I believe I've explained well enough in the past 3 posts why amterasu isn't doing anything here but I will let you collectively respond to them since they are splintered.

While I won't contest it too much, doesn't Cleave and Dismantle only spawn on opponents inside of Domain Expansion? Against Mahoraga, we can visibly see the attack before it hits Mahoraga, and after Mahoraga adapts to it, he deflects it as to charges at him, with the attack continuing forward in its trajectory into a building:

If it didn't travel, I don't think Maharaja would've been able to see the attack or deflect it. After all, if it spawns on something, how can it be deflected in a different direction and continue to imprint on something else? I get he can adapt to Techniques, but I don't think it was ever stated he can fundamentally change how a technique works.

So like, unless Sukuna made that attack in particular travel distance and has statements that it spawns on the opponent, I feel most would agree based on the panels above that it travels distance.

 

[Arkenis]

They exist as a second light within the visible light spectrum. Imperceptible to humans. Clearly you'd need the ability to see a secondary light to be able to view it. I stated the ability to see every wavelength of the light spectrum would maybe also suffice.

Prove that being able to see through walls and seeing spirits = seeing a different form of light.

And while people have been able to see curses in life and death situations, there's also numerous times where they haven't. Jogo incinerated people in a restruant without being noticed at all. IIRC, in the Shibuya station, some people couldn't even see the Cursed Spirits. With one dude stating "What are those two talking about" and someone else replying "Don't you mean four?". While they were being massacred they were also holding relatively still or just walking around. Granted maybe the anime changes this?

Either way, equating to seeing something that is invisible due to esoteric reasons like being a spirit isn't the same as seeing in like the X-Ray wavelength (As an example). The two are way different.

Seeing through walls would be x-ray vision that's electromagnetic waves. Itachi sees chakra through walls, and can even see into one's body and see their heart beating. So you would agree then. Yeah true some people can't see the spirits but I'm pretty sure this is due to people being less or more aware of spirits overall (forgot where I read this), Itachi can see spirits as well, so do you not think this would probably further add onto Itachi seeing curse energy?

Here also just again to push more so that humans can see at times

 

[Dr._whiteee]

While I won't contest it too much, doesn't Cleave and Dismantle only spawn on opponents inside of Domain Expansion? Against Mahoraga, we can visibly see the attack before it hits Mahoraga, and after Mahoraga adapts to it, he deflects it as to charges at him, with the attack continuing forward in its trajectory into a building:

I don't think so, the initial panel is from Mahoraga's perspective who is right in front of Sukuna, I don't think they are travelling. We see in the next scan that the slash literally appears right in front of Mahoraga who then promptly deflects it. Look at the ground, there isn't a huge slash section in front ofMaho and we clearly see where the spawn came from. It also is backed up by Sukuna being surprised he could deflect the attack.

If it didn't travel, I don't think Maharaja would've been able to see the attack or deflect it. After all, if it spawns on something, how can it be deflected in a different direction and continue to imprint on something else? I get he can adapt to Techniques, but I don't think it was ever stated he can fundamentally change how a technique works.

That is actually subtext that acts as important information. Mahoraga couldn't adapt to the first slashes not because they bltized him, but because they spawn on target. Sukuna was surprised at this and hence why he asks how he can see the slashes (since they spawn on target). He doesn't adapt to techniques only, he also adapts to pheonemona. I mean, homie literally adapted to 3-A pressure contained to an infinitesemal point. I don't think this is farfetched. Once again, you can track the trajectory of the slash.

So like, unless Sukuna made that attack in particular travel distance and has statements that it spawns on the opponent, I feel most would agree based on the panels above that it travels distance.

I don't see any proof outside of the visual aid for readers that she slashes travel. We only ever see them interact with the environment once hitting their target or after they've been deflected.

Sukuna isn't physically created the slashing which is why his somatic movements don't align with the slashes. He is quite literally just abstractly summoning them on his opponents, which also makes sense given his ability to manifest his complete domain into reality without the need of a barrier or medium.

Here you can see the slash form on Yuji

All Sukuna is doing is holding his hand out and Itadori is attacked from several angles.

Trajectory is clearly not a factor.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Seeing through walls would be x-ray vision that's electromagnetic waves. Itachi sees chakra through walls, and can even see into one's body and see their heart beating. So you would agree then. Yeah true some people can't see the spirits but I'm pretty sure this is due to people being less or more aware of spirits overall (forgot where I read this), Itachi can see spirits as well, so do you not think this would probably further add onto Itachi seeing curse energy?

That would at least be the ability to see the X-Ray electromagnetic wave. But that's one wave out of several, and the Curses exist specifically as a completely unique light in the visible spectrum and yet is still not visible. Meaning while it exists in it, it's completely independent of that spectrum. Hence it being a "Second light".
Maybe? I mean, one dude sensed something bad was going to happen, but he still didn't see them IIRC. Just had a bad feeling. Meanwhile everyone else there who was in danger didn't take notice of them at all. Nor do they notice when they are being touched/fed off of by Cursed Spirits.

It depends, do you think part of the reason Cursed Spirits are invisible is because they're spirits? If the answer is no, then no, it wouldn't add onto it. If you believe that's part of what makes them invisible to people, then sure, that adds half of the prerequisite.

I don't think so, the initial panel is from Mahoraga's perspective who is right in front of Sukuna, I don't think they are travelling. We see in the next scan that the slash literally appears right in front of Mahoraga who then promptly deflects it. Look at the ground, there isn't a huge slash section in front ofMaho and we clearly see where the spawn came from. It also is backed up by Sukuna being surprised he could deflect the attack.

He's maybe a foot or two away. But he shouldn't be able to see the attack at all if it just spawns already on him. The attack would at least have to spawn in front of his eyes to see them. The second one looks like it's a few feet away from Mahorga's face to show us he sees it before deflecting it with a sword swipe. I think the reason Sukuna was surprised is because Mahoraga could see the attack. Thus why in the next panel he states "You can see it! You can see my Cursed Technique!"

I don't see any proof outside of the visual aid for readers that she slashes travel. We only ever see them interact with the environment once hitting their target or after they've been deflected.

Sukuna isn't physically created the slashing which is why his somatic movements don't align with the slashes. He is quite literally just abstractly summoning them on his opponents, which also makes sense given his ability to manifest his complete domain into reality without the need of a barrier or medium.

I would say the fact it can be deflected, and then continue to travel and affect something else would be proof it travels. Especially given it can be seen. I would say that it's fair to assume that given this particular instance, it would be fair to assume they do travel unless there's proof they don't (outside of Domain Expansion which verbatim cause attacks to exist only after they've made contact). Proof as in textual confirmation. Visuals don't work too well given they're invisible and travel very fast.

I do agree with Jogo's attack spawning on people though. He just causes people to spontaneously ignite.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

He's maybe a foot or two away. But he shouldn't be able to see the attack at all if it just spawns already on him.

Correct, he could not until he adapted. Which was highlighting his ability and shown by Sukuna's surprise.

The attack would at least have to spawn in front of his eyes to see them. The second one looks like it's a few feet away from Mahorga's face to show us he sees it before deflecting it with a sword swipe.

Correct, meaning he reacted to something right in front of his face.

I think the reason Sukuna was surprised is because Mahoraga could see the attack. Thus why in the next panel he states "You can see it! You can see my Cursed Technique!"

Which was different from the first time when Mahoraga could not see the slash. Sukuna is obviously highlighting the slashes having a quality that makes them really hard to see and is surprised it was deflected for a reason.

I would say the fact it can be deflected, and then continue to travel and affect something else would be proof it travels.

It would be proof that the slashes travel when spawned. We know this because they clearly have momentum. But that isn't the question, the question is are the slashes propagated by an actual momentum that leaves from Sukuna, or does Sukuna manifest his slashes into reality which then travel.

I believe the Yuji scans I provided blatantly show us they do not travel following a trajectory from Sukuna and do indeed spawn on target .

Especially given it can be seen.

Seen only by Mahoraga after adapting via his wheel. So I don't think this is a valid premise for your conclusion.

I would say that it's fair to assume that given this particular instance, it would be fair to assume they do travel unless there's proof they don't (outside of Domain Expansion which verbatim cause attacks to exist only after they've made contact). Proof as in textual confirmation. Visuals don't work too well given they're invisible and travel very fast.

I disagree, see the Yuji examples I ninja'd after my initial post.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Correct, meaning he reacted to something right in front of his face.

Then we agree, the attack isn't summoned ON the person. It's summoned right in front of them. The two are distinctly different. One is unavoidable and can't be deflected. One leaves very little room to deflect, but can be.

Which was different from the first time when Mahoraga could not see the slash. Sukuna is obviously highlighting the slashes having a quality that makes them really hard to see and is surprised it was deflected for a reason.

The quality is that they're invisible. We only ever really see Dismantle and Cleave after they've made impact.

It would be proof that the slashes travel when spawned. We know this because they clearly have momentum. But that isn't the question, the question is are the slashes propagated by an actual momentum that leaves from Sukuna, or does Sukuna manifest his slashes into reality which then travel.

I believe the Yuji scans I provided blatantly show us they do not travel following a trajectory from Sukuna and do indeed spawn on target .

Oh, I was never arguing they propagated from Sukuna. Just that they actually travel distance. They aren't like Domains that manifest attacks into existence after having already made contact.

The problem with the Yuji feats imo (and this would apply to every other showing) is that we're only shown Cleave AFTER it has made contact. Given they're invisible, we wouldn't see it unless it was highlighted as it is in the case of Mahoraga and Itadori. I'm not saying Cleave/Dismantle needs to start at Sukuna's hands. Just that they need to travel SOME distance before hitting the target. But they can effectively be spawned anywhere within range of Sukuna granted it's not on the person. Though based on Mahoraga's fight, it seems like in-character, he starts by summoning it like a foot ahead of him and they then travel really fast.

If you still disagree, that's fine. But I personally find it hard to believe they spawn on the opponent with zero time to react outside of Domain Expansion.

 

[Arkenis]

That would at least be the ability to see the X-Ray electromagnetic wave. But that's one wave out of several, and the Curses exist specifically as a completely unique light in the visible spectrum and yet is still not visible. Meaning while it exists in it, it's completely independent of that spectrum. Hence it being a "Second light".
Maybe? I mean, one dude sensed something bad was going to happen, but he still didn't see them IIRC. Just had a bad feeling. Meanwhile everyone else there who was in danger didn't take notice of them at all. Nor do they notice when they are being touched/fed off of by Cursed Spirits.

It depends, do you think part of the reason Cursed Spirits are invisible is because they're spirits? If the answer is no, then no, it wouldn't add onto it. If you believe that's part of what makes them invisible to people, then sure, that adds half of the prerequisite.

I'm not well versed on the spectrum, but looking at where X ray stands in the electromagnetic spectrum, it would be much more advance than the other ones no? Not necessarily seeing that small but seeing the higher frequency. As I said before, I think this is overcomplicating the enhanced senses of seeing ce, Kenjaku tells us they exist within the wavelength of visible light, but they are a second form of light. I think it's fine to say if you see one of these you can likely see ce since we have no definite classification for which light their perceivable in. And yeah seeing souls should add onto seeing invisible beings who are cursed spirits. Definitely should not be dismissed since we can also argue seeing spirits themselves would also require you seeing a different part of the spectrum as well or even an entirely different spectrum altogether.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I'm not well versed on the spectrum, but looking at where X ray stands in the electromagnetic spectrum, it would be much more advance than the other ones no? Not necessarily seeing that small but seeing the higher frequency. As I said before, I think this is overcomplicating the enhanced senses of seeing ce, Kenjaku tells us they exist within the wavelength of visible light, but they are a second form of light. I think it's fine to say if you see one of these you can likely see ce since we have no definite classification for which light their perceivable in. And yeah seeing souls should add onto seeing invisible beings who are cursed spirits. Definitely should not be dismissed since we can also argue seeing spirits themselves would also require you seeing a different part of the spectrum as well or even an entirely different spectrum altogether.

Wavelengths aren't measured by being "advanced". For example, all people can see visible light. Some people are born with the ability to see Ultraviolet even (You can look it up if you're interested. It's kind of underwhelming what seeing in that spectrum offers). Yet they can't see infrared, microwave, or radio waves which are longer wavelengths.

Hell, you could see Ultraviolet, X-ray, and Gamma ray, but you still wouldn't be able to see Infrared, Microwave, or Radio unless stated otherwise. Nor would you be able to see Ultraviolet, X-ray, or Gamma ray if you could see longer wavelengths. It's not based on levels of intensity or anything like that.

Hell, even camera's which actually can see in different wavelengths aren't able to perceive Cursed Spirits. So it's clear that having the ability to see short wavelengths and longer wavelengths are irrelevant in the process of perceiving them. To summarize what Kenjaku stated in a hopefully easy to digest fashion:

Cursed Spirits exist as a completely independent light. Said "second light" doesn't exist as a part of the known light-spectrum, but their bodies itself do.

You could view it as the "Second light" being the "Cursed Energy wavelength" which is its own unique wavelength that intersects with the visible wave-length. Thus those who can see them still see them as if they existed within the visible spectrum (I.e. their colors are that of the visible color spectrum rather than seeing their skeletons or heat signatures). In order to see the Cursed Spirits, you would need the ability to see in the "Cursed Energy Spectrum" as opposed to the Electromagnetic spectrum.

So you would agree that even if Cursed Spirits existed solely as part of the normal Electromagnetic spectrum that they'd still be invisible? If so, that'd mean they have two methods of being invisible and that both would need to be bypassed to view them. First the ability to see those with esoteric invisibility, and then the ability to see in a completely different spectrum separate from the Electromagnetic one.

And you can't really argue seeing standard ghosts in a series requires seeing a different part of the spectrum or in an entirely separate one as that's not treated as the case in 90% of ghost media. It's typically just a esoteric "magic" ability for ghosts to become invisible (and in some cases they aren't even invisible).

 

[Arkenis]

Wavelengths aren't measured by being "advanced". For example, all people can see visible light. Some people are born with the ability to see Ultraviolet even (You can look it up if you're interested. It's kind of underwhelming what seeing in that spectrum offers). Yet they can't see infrared, microwave, or radio waves which are longer wavelengths.

Hell, you could see Ultraviolet, X-ray, and Gamma ray, but you still wouldn't be able to see Infrared, Microwave, or Radio unless stated otherwise. Nor would you be able to see Ultraviolet, X-ray, or Gamma ray if you could see longer wavelengths. It's not based on levels of intensity or anything like that.

Hell, even camera's which actually can see in different wavelengths aren't able to perceive Cursed Spirits. So it's clear that having the ability to see short wavelengths and longer wavelengths are irrelevant in the process of perceiving them. To summarize what Kenjaku stated in a hopefully easy to digest fashion:

Cursed Spirits exist as a completely independent light. Said "second light" doesn't exist as a part of the known light-spectrum, but their bodies itself do.

You could view it as the "Second light" being the "Cursed Energy wavelength" which is its own unique wavelength that intersects with the visible wave-length. Thus those who can see them still see them as if they existed within the visible spectrum (I.e. their colors are that of the visible color spectrum rather than seeing their skeletons or heat signatures). In order to see the Cursed Spirits, you would need the ability to see in the "Cursed Energy Spectrum" as opposed to the Electromagnetic spectrum.

So you would agree that even if Cursed Spirits existed solely as part of the normal Electromagnetic spectrum that they'd still be invisible? If so, that'd mean they have two methods of being invisible and that both would need to be bypassed to view them. First the ability to see those with esoteric invisibility, and then the ability to see in a completely different spectrum separate from the Electromagnetic one.

And you can't really argue seeing standard ghosts in a series requires seeing a different part of the spectrum or in an entirely separate one as that's not treated as the case in 90% of ghost media. It's typically just a esoteric "magic" ability for ghosts to become invisible (and in some cases they aren't even invisible).

I think you're misinterpreting what Kenjaku's saying. Kenjaku says they exist within the wavelength of visible light, we can only go off the wavelength we know of irl as Gege bases a lot of the science on that. There is no basis for them existing entirely in an unknown wavelength here. And I can argue seeing spirits would require you to see a different part of the spectrum or an entirely unknown part, that is how things invisible to the naked eyes works besides things too small to see. Light is the main requirement for seeing after all.

Also I looked it up, cameras and the normal eye can see the same portion of the spectrum, certain cameras are used to see beyond that but in this case normal cameras can't see the cursed spirits.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think you're misinterpreting what Kenjaku's saying. Kenjaku says they exist within the wavelength of visible light, we can only go off the wavelength we know of irl as Gege bases a lot of the science on that. There is no basis for them existing entirely in an unknown wavelength here. And I can argue seeing spirits would require you to see a different part of the spectrum or an entirely unknown part, that is how things invisible to the naked eyes works besides things too small to see. Light is the main requirement for seeing after all.

Also I looked it up, cameras and the normal eye can see the same portion of the spectrum, certain cameras are used to see beyond that but in this case normal cameras can't see the cursed spirits.

He states they exist in the visible wavelength of light. But he also states they are a form of second light. Meaning they exist as a being of an independent spectrum of light. There'd be no mention of a "second light" if they existed solely in the visible spectrum, and they would then be visible as opposed to invisible. Existing in the visible spectrum and being invisible doesn't add up. Like at all. Ghosts/Spirits wouldn't be visible in ANY spectrum if we're looking at it from a scientific view. As all wavelengths would simply go through them (Well, unless you argue they exist as a high frequency wavelength, then only similarly high frequencies could view them). But then the ghost likewise wouldn't be able to see since light doesn't reflect off of them. Or would be limited to sight in certain spectrums that wouldn't be useful. Yet this is never treated as the case. Typicaly folktale ghosts are treated as being magical in nature. Being able to go through walls and the sorts, yet you don't see the wiki writing ghosts as having a physiology consisting of high frequency light thus why they can phase through materials. If light isn't mentioned with a ghosts invisibility, then nothing should be assumed regarding how it becomes invisible.

The statement was that cameras (plural) can't capture Cursed Spirits whatsoever. That would include camera's the can see in wavelengths such as X-Ray, Radio waves, Thermal, etc. No reason to limit it to only normal cameras.

 

[Arkenis]

He states they exist in the visible wavelength of light. But he also states they are a form of second light. Meaning they exist as a being of an independent spectrum of light. There'd be no mention of a "second light" if they existed solely in the visible spectrum, and they would then be visible as opposed to invisible. Existing in the visible spectrum and being invisible doesn't add up. Like at all. Ghosts/Spirits wouldn't be visible in ANY spectrum if we're looking at it from a scientific view. As all wavelengths would simply go through them (Well, unless you argue they exist as a high frequency wavelength, then only similarly high frequencies could view them). But then the ghost likewise wouldn't be able to see since light doesn't reflect off of them. Or would be limited to sight in certain spectrums that wouldn't be useful. Yet this is never treated as the case. Typicaly folktale ghosts are treated as being magical in nature. Being able to go through walls and the sorts, yet you don't see the wiki writing ghosts as having a physiology consisting of high frequency light thus why they can phase through materials. If light isn't mentioned with a ghosts invisibility, then nothing should be assumed regarding how it becomes invisible.

The statement was that cameras (plural) can't capture Cursed Spirits whatsoever. That would include camera's the can see in wavelengths such as X-Ray, Radio waves, Thermal, etc. No reason to limit it to only normal cameras.

Okay here is the confusion I think, when he says forms of a second light, he's not implying a different spectrum entirely, look up "different forms of light" and you will get the ones on the spectrum. If they did exist in a different spectrum then seeing them as normal colors wouldn't even make sense as these colors are within the known spectrum not within an unknown spectrum. You're probably correct spirits would need to be of a higher frequency or lower but we don't have concrete evidence of such a thing and the wiki not establishing this isn't relevant here. Also idk how you can say spirits wouldn't be visible on any spectrum as all wavelengths would pass through them, when cursed spirits don't follow this yet a certain wavelength can't pass through them. This would make it more likely that ce and cs exist in the normal wavelength. And we would limit it to normal cameras that's whats shown. Kenjaku doesn't say all cameras though, he says "cameras", there's no reason to assume he's talking about different cameras as well.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Then we agree, the attack isn't summoned ON the person. It's summoned right in front of them. The two are distinctly different. One is unavoidable and can't be deflected. One leaves very little room to deflect, but can be.

I hate when this happens lol. Yeah I agree that cleave's exact location on target varies from pretty much on top of a person (Yuji's toe for instance) to a few inches.