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Issues with scaling for the MHA verse

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CyborgSakumo

CyborgSakumo

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Ok so this is something I need to get off of my chest regarding the MHA verse profiles.

Shigaraki-
His AP should scale to his durability for the following reasons.

He was able to cause physical injury himself by over exceeding his limits as stated by himself and shown physically, and also implied by Deku.

-Chapter 283(Is in Imgur) Shigaraki states " I see why I was all busted up just a second ago, I had to go past my own body's limits just to keep going" This is further proven by the fact that in the previous chapter when Shigaraki is doing his speech panel it is clear his body is literally bursting at the seams with his own power.

-Chapter 283(Is in Imgur) Deku states "That power is too much for his body to keep up with"- and then we get multiple images of Deku's body breaking implying his AP is higher than his durability.

His durability should fully scale to Deku's 100%

-The counterclaim to this on Shigaraki's profile was that he was extremely injured with the help of his regeneration what it fails to mention which many people bring up during versus threads is three issues.

-Before Deku even started his 100% barrage Shigaraki's regeneration quirk was significantly slowed down, as Shigaraki's torso wound still hadn't regenerated by the time Deku was starting his barrages, and in later images, you can see it still hasn't regenerated, while just a few minutes ago he regenerated much more grievous injuries in within seconds, and have seen other people with the regeneration quirk regenerate wounds of this level much faster. (The high-end Nomu literally took less time to regenerate its entire body from its head). As well, as Shigaraki by his own admission admitting he was weakened. So whatever you want to say his regeneration quirk isn't a massive factor in him surviving this. (supporting images can be found in Imgur)

-Not to mention Shigaraki not only survives this but on top of this a roasting from endeavor at point-blank and was still capable of moving his body until the one for all explosion. And at this point, the regeneration quirk was barely if at all active, as the wounds he suffered from that still haven't been fully healed as of chapter 293 where at the very least several minutes have gone by.

Now a counterclaim I'll probably hear is "Yeah, but he was severely injured, so we should downscale him after all a Low 7-B+ can survive attacks from a 7-B right".

-Wrong for a few reasons

-First, off while Shigaraki did take major injuries from that attack this was after a bloodlusted adrenaline filled barrage of blows that by Bakugou's own admission which was proven true the damage from those attacks weren't so significant that he wouldn't be able to fight afterward and still be capable of taking the OFA quirk(not even getting AFO involved) it wasn't until Endeavor roasted him that he was pushed to the brink of death and even then he could still move and fight.

-Secondly, this idea is entirely inconsistent with the way we treat other characters in the verse.

-Nine was barely alive after taking two attacks but we still scale him.

-The Nomu who had a shock absorption quirk AND regeneration was knocked unconscious by AM's barrage of blows because AM went PLUS ULTRA (which Izuku was most certainly doing in that fight), while Shigaraki not only remained conscious but could still fight afterward for an extended period of time against Todoroki and Nejire.

-Muscular was one-shot by an adrenaline-filled izuku's delaware detroit smash(Izuku was definitely experiencing the same phenomena).

In conclusion for Shigaraki, the TLDR is Shigaraki's AP scales to his durability because he can damage himself and his durability scales because A his regeneration was barely a factor in that fight and B it's inconsistent with the way we scale other characters in the verse.

Izuku

45% should not scale to Shigaraki

The justification on his profile is he can restrain shigaraki and he took an elbow attack from him. Neither of these makes sense.

Regarding Restraining.

First isn't restraining a character considered a LS feat, not an AP feat, that's something that's consistent across this wiki.

Second, you forget to mention he was restraining him with BW. (This will be a tirade)

BW has been shown multiple times in the series to be independent of the amount of OFA percentage Deku uses for multiple cases, it just is linked to its usage.

--In recent chapters where deku could use black whip from his mouth with enough force to move dabi away from shoto unless you think deku just really does tongue day.

--When deku was causing widescale destruction with black whip the first time, it's clear that it's moving him around and not the other way around meaning it's power is separate from OFA.

-- The original user directly stated it's power is fueled by rage, and this is consistent with the story, and when Deku starts using 100% it shows no notable change until Bakugou is injured where its obviously fuled by rage.

Essentially saying that A it is a LS feat, not an AP one, and B he restrained him with a rage-enhanced BW which is clearly independent of his OFA percentage.

-Now regarding the elbow this is simple, Shigaraki was already restrained so he couldn't unleash his full power and B Shigaraki made multiple statements saying he didn't want to kill Izuku until he retrieved OFA IE he wasn't attempting to kill him so he likely just underestimated the amount of power to hit him with.

-The air cannon is an even weaker one , the air cannon's AP has already been calculated at 7-C so there's no basis to say it should scale to his stats.

-Deku should not get an expert hand to hand combat for outclassing Shigaraki for the sheer fact that shigaraki literally didn't attack deku at all when he was doing the barrage he was just staying there, because by his own words he was already weakened and he didn't know about air walk so he couldn't move in midair so he was forced just to endure the attacks. Deku just put him in a situation he couldn't attack him, an outclassing in hand to hand combat terms would need them to engage in some sort of exchange of blows which didn't happen here it was just an endurance match.

In conclusion, Deku should just have his stats read 8-B+ with 30%, higher with 45% up to 7-B, and or just keep it exclusive to Lifting strength as we have nothing to show us it can actually injure Shigaraki just restrain him.

Deku: 30% 8-B+, 45% 7-C(Could endure an Air cannon point-blank, durability should scale to AP given nature of OFA),100% 7-B varies with rage up to 7-B with BW

remove expert h2h for reasons I stated above.

Shigaraki:7-B(Was shown to have more power than his body could handle),7-B dura(Could endure a barrage of blows from 100% deku, in a weakened state while his regeneration was slowed, until Deku ran out of stamina)

 
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Yeah, I believe the scaling chart would go Endeavor's Dura and then Hood. No other characters we have scaling to Hood besides Gigantomachia from what I recall.

If you are talking about the statement that came out in the spoilers about the near high-end being equal to hood , that statement caused issues before we got 7-B involved. And it's likely hood's AP is higher due to his assortment of quirks.(I.E Muscle augmentation)
 
Yeah, Kamino AM and AFO should be weaker than current Deku as they were incredibly weakened at that point. The other versions have the storm feat and metal feat respectively to scale off of.
 
If regular Near High Ends are equal to Hood when it comes to base physical stats, wouldn't that mess up the scaling with the heroes? Or would heroes only scale to them if they are able to harm them (Drawing blood, dismemberment, visible injuries) rather than just knocking them back?
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
If regular Near High Ends are equal to Hood when it comes to base physical stats, wouldn't that mess up the scaling with the heroes? Or would heroes only scale to them if they are able to harm them (Drawing blood, dismemberment, visible injuries) rather than just knocking them back?
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A- This was a problem regardless of this CRT

B- their base physical stats shouldn't be 7-B in this case hood had a muscular augmentation quirk. All of the other near high-ends will probably(waiting for official release) just end up being 8-A(possibly 7-C who knows) for scaling to the hospital ones > Ryukyu ~= Nejire who's 8-A.

Machia's never been injured so it's not a huge deal where he places(Best Jeanist was a LS feat against a weakened version of him) but I'd assume high morale.
 
I'll add some points:

1. It's not that Shigaraki didn't react against 100% barrage from Deku, he couldn't. He says it himself that he couldn't find an opening and even when he tried to stretch his hands out, trying to catch Deku or use Decay or whatever other quirk, Deku reacted and blasted him from in front. I'd say the difference between Shigaraki and Deku using 100% does exists, after all Ujiko himself says that while Shiggy approaches All Might's power, he isn't there yet. So right now it should still be 100% Deku > Shigaraki before Shiggy uses any quirks within AFO to boosts stats.

2. Durability: I've seen many try to push Endeavor's durability above Kamino All Might and AFO for some reason. It's not really to hard to scale them when they ate the same level of attacks.

- First, Endeavor got blown back by AFO's super air canon which wasn't aimed at him while All Might ate those for breakfast.

- Two, Endeavor got rammed through buildings by Hood and was almost done for while All Might got rammed through an entire ward and was still going.

- Three, AFO used Impact Recoil against All Might several times where the force acting on All Might would be AFO's attack + All Might's own power reflected back to him. These attacks were the ones that dealt the most damage to All Might.

- Four, both All Might and Endeavor were hit with Rivet stab from AFO. Endeavor couldn't tank it yet the same attack wasn't even able to pierce through All Might's back. All Might and Deku have OFA which gives them a Superman-like durability at least at 100% as Deku's hands couldn't be pierced by Rivet stab either so if he was at 100% Full Cowl, that attack would be pointless on him same for against All Might.


3. About Hood and the High-ends. The tiers should still be White, Grey, Black. At the end of the day High-ends' base stats should be like other Black Nomu. We have already seen in base, in Vigilantes, Hood was as fast as Rappa, Mirko and O'clock as for strength, I'd say each High-end has been at least comparable to a Top 10 hero. And of course for durability, even Mid-tier Grey Nomu eat machine gun fire like nothing, without even being phased. (For this, any hero who can phase a Nomu, Grey and above, should at least be stronger than multiple machine guns shooting at once)

- However they each have their strengths. Not all of them have strength boosting quirks like Hood who had Muscle Augmentation. This is muscular's quirk and we all know how strong it is, + he could spurn multiple arms and had flight. Not all High-ends have such battle ready quirks. Woman only had acid, the helmet HE had Lasers and Warp but no close combat quirk, etc so their strengths in battle will be different.
 
I am in complete agreement that Shigaraki’s AP should scale to and above his durability and that he should fully scale to 100% Deku
 
Gitagon said:
I'll add some points:

1. It's not that Shigaraki didn't react against 100% barrage from Deku, he couldn't. He says it himself that he couldn't find an opening and even when he tried to stretch his hands out, trying to catch Deku or use Decay or whatever other quirk, Deku reacted and blasted him from in front. I'd say the difference between Shigaraki and Deku using 100% does exists, after all Ujiko himself says that while Shiggy approaches All Might's power, he isn't there yet. So right now it should still be 100% Deku > Shigaraki before Shiggy uses any quirks within AFO to boosts stats.

2. Durability: I've seen many try to push Endeavor's durability above Kamino All Might and AFO for some reason. It's not really to hard to scale them when they ate the same level of attacks.

- First, Endeavor got blown back by AFO's super air canon which wasn't aimed at him while All Might ate those for breakfast.

- Two, Endeavor got rammed through buildings by Hood and was almost done for while All Might got rammed through an entire ward and was still going.

- Three, AFO used Impact Recoil against All Might several times where the force acting on All Might would be AFO's attack + All Might's own power reflected back to him. These attacks were the ones that dealt the most damage to All Might.

- Four, both All Might and Endeavor were hit with Rivet stab from AFO. Endeavor couldn't tank it yet the same attack wasn't even able to pierce through All Might's back. All Might and Deku have OFA which gives them a Superman-like durability at least at 100% as Deku's hands couldn't be pierced by Rivet stab either so if he was at 100% Full Cowl, that attack would be pointless on him same for against All Might.
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1. Shigaraki did not say that, the panel is in the imgur he just says he has to focus on defense because he's weakened. When he outstretched his hand deku uses texas smash to create enough windpower to knock them both back. I don't think there's a difference if it exists its not significant shigaraki was weakened when he fought 100% deku and was still capable of outenduring him.

2. I have spoken about this literally 100's of times I'm sick of it, I'll say this. Please go back through the discussion threads and check what my thoughts on that where, because I'm not clogging this CRT up with that discussion.
 
I agree that 45% Izuku should not be scaling to Tomura.

And I don't think Endeavor should scale to him either, really. The advantage that Endeavor has is that Tomura isn't resistant to heat/fire, so he can still suffer relatively superficial burns over his body when he's engulfed in Endeavor's hottest flames. Yet nothing Endeavor did to him was capable of keeping him down, and Tomura is able to knock back Endeavor with ease even with all of his Quirks disabled.
 
I don’t have much problem with any of this besides Endeavor’s durability being Low7B+. It feels ridiculous that his durability is scaling above (or even to AM) when he blatantly takes similar hits to AM and is either heavily injured or even incapped for a bit while AM is fine

Concerning the Air Cannon did Endeavor ever clash with it in the manga or was it just All For One blasting his attack away?

Also Shigaraki did attack Deku at least once with Air Cannon but it didn’t do anything. He was also trying to find an ability to take Deku down during the fight.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
I don’t have much problem with any of this besides Endeavor’s durability being Low7B+. It feels ridiculous that his durability is scaling above (or even to AM) when he blatantly takes similar hits to AM and is either heavily injured or even incapped for a bit while AM is fine

Concerning the Air Cannon did Endeavor ever clash with it in the manga or was it just All For One blasting his attack away?

Also Shigaraki did attack Deku at least once with Air Cannon but it didn’t do anything. He was also trying to find an ability to take Deku down during the fight.
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In the manga it wasn’t extended clashing I believe although context was still the same and the attacks still nulled each other despite it originally targeting all might.

And yeah Low 7-B Endeavor would be a big issue and wouldn’t make sense unless we were willing to have Kamino AM and Afo scale which I don’t wanna get into that cesspit again
 
Yeah BTW I never actually stated what I'd want the profiles to look like but essentially it would be.

Deku: 30% 8-A(Comparable to Bakugou who could harm high-ends), 45% 7-C(Could endure an Air cannon point-blank, durability should scale to AP given nature of OFA),100% 7-B varies with rage up to 7-B with BW

Shigaraki:7-B(Was shown to have more power than his body could handle),7-B dura(Could endure a barrage of 100% Deku blows in a weakened state while his regeneration was slowed)

I'm neutral towards the low 7-B endeavor dura thing at this point, it's not the point of this CRT.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
Yeah BTW I never actually stated what I'd want the profiles to look like but essentially it would be.

Deku: 30% 8-A(Comparable to Bakugou who could harm high-ends), 45% 7-C(Could endure an Air cannon point-blank, durability should scale to AP given nature of OFA),100% 7-B varies with rage up to 7-B with BW

Shigaraki:7-B(Was shown to have more power than his body could handle),7-B dura(Could endure a barrage of 100% Deku blows in a weakened state while his regeneration was slowed)

I'm neutral towards the low 7-B endeavor dura thing at this point, it's not the point of this CRT.
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There's no real problem with this tbh but how are we scaling Endeavor. He can't be 7B as well.
 
Deku: 30% 8-A(Comparable to Bakugou who could harm high-ends)
Click to expand...

Wasn't Bakugo harming the High-Ends only possible after he has recieved a power-up?

durability should scale to AP given nature of OFA
Click to expand...

How so?
 
Damage3245 said:
Wasn't Bakugo harming the High-Ends only possible after he has recieved a power-up?



How so?
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Hmmmm, yeah that might be the case didn't think of that, we could just leave it at unknown then.
Regarding durability, considering all other forms of OFA have given a similar level of external durability to the AP it should be the case with 45%.
 
I don't think it's necessary, we can just have AM at least 7-C for being shown to being able to take the normal Air Cannons with very little injury. It doesn't invalidate Endeavor's feat.
 
So to reiterate the changes if anyone wants to comment

Deku: 30% 8-A(Comparable to Bakugou who could harm high-ends), 45% 7-C(Could endure an Air cannon point-blank, durability should scale to AP given nature of OFA),100% 7-B varies with rage up to 7-B with BW

remove expert h2h for reasons I stated above.

Shigaraki:7-B(Was shown to have more power than his body could handle),7-B dura(Could endure a barrage of 100% Deku blows in a weakened state while his regeneration was slowed)
 
CyborgSakumo said:
I don't think it's necessary, we can just have AM at least 7-C for being shown to being able to take the normal Air Cannons with very little injury. It doesn't invalidate Endeavor's feat.
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Endeavor's Hellflame has been shown to be stronger than him though. He's physically inferior to the likes of Hood but can tear his arm off and even force him back with Hellflfame's force. Hellflame doesn't even need to be directly equal to Air Cannon as like I said it isn't even a 10% difference between Low 7C and the attack.
 
We kind of do though, AFO made a mention to say when he started enhancing his air cannon and we can see visible changes in the way his arm looked when he used it.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
We kind of do though, AFO made a mention to say when he started enhancing his air cannon and we can see visible changes in the way his arm looked when he used it.
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We never see him actually attack Jeanist all we see is the result. When we see him attack AM with it all he says is he likes the combination and describes what he just did.
 
Ok let's just say this it's more likely than not he used the nonenhanced version because the enhanced one requires him to builk him arm which he couldn't do because he was tied up.

Regardless, I just don't like the whole artifically downscaling a character to another tier without calcs to back it up, I'd rather just use a likely or an at least as that conveys the messages without using headcanon.
 
Damage3245 said:
Indeed. MHA currently has this problem more than most verses.
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The scaling of the verse has been getting messier and messier so it's expected. We have non enhanced humans fighting characters with super speed and various enhancements no problem, we have a Endeavor rivalling AFO, students rivalling the top heroes etc.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
The scaling of the verse has been getting messier and messier so it's expected. We have non enhanced humans fighting characters with super speed and various enhancements no problem, we have a Endeavor rivalling AFO, students rivalling the top heroes etc.
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I don't think he's even referring to that while that is a scaling issue , the bigger issue is stuff like saying Deku's High 8-C because he probably is and then using that to scale half of the verse, or Kirishima's has 8-B even though we don't know that. These are issues that are independent of the story. Some of that's just due to that not all characters are going to get feats. Honestly, I feel like prior to the forum move the MHA verse was ok with that, but since then it's gotten nearly unmanagable.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
1. Shigaraki did not say that, the panel is in the imgur he just says he has to focus on defense because he's weakened. When he outstretched his hand deku uses texas smash to create enough windpower to knock them both back. I don't think there's a difference if it exists its not significant shigaraki was weakened when he fought 100% deku and was still capable of outenduring him.

2. I have spoken about this literally 100's of times I'm sick of it, I'll say this. Please go back through the discussion threads and check what my thoughts on that where, because I'm not clogging this CRT up with that discussion.
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The main reason I have a huge problem with Shigaraki scaling to 100% Deku is that Ujiko literally says he isn't at All Might's level. Here people are already saying Deku's 100% > All Might's 100% so how can Shigaraki scale to 100% Deku when he can't even scale to full power All Might?
 
Gitagon said:
The main reason I have a huge problem with Shigaraki scaling to 100% Deku is that Ujiko literally says he isn't at All Might's level. Here people are already saying Deku's 100% > All Might's 100% so how can Shigaraki scale to 100% Deku when he can't even scale to full power All Might?
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Ok so you again are misquoting something Ujiko's words were 'not quite on par with All might' which doesn't imply a huge difference , and he was likely referring to prime AM which deku isn't above yet. He at best scales to wounded AM.
 
All I will say is that this site is obsessed with scaling and the only scaling that matters is literally tiers of strength difference. People don't understand that sometimes the strength difference can exist without it being massive. Sure Shigaraki is close to All Might per Ujiko so he shouldn't be several tiers below him but that is confirmation that he is weaker then the latter meaning he is also weaker than Deku when he uses 100%. Just because Shigaraki didn't get obliterated in 1 punch by 100% doesn't mean he is equal, the fight clearly showed a strength gap exists just that it is not that wide.

Also with durability, it is clear MHA has a huge case of split durability. A lot of people have good blunt force durability, elemental durability mainly depends on whether your quirk is about a certain element, as for piercing, only those with hardening quirks, bioengineering products like Nomu and a quirk like OFA have good piercing durability.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
Ok so you again are misquoting something Ujiko's words were 'not quite on par with All might' which doesn't imply a huge difference , and he was likely referring to prime AM which deku isn't above yet. He at best scales to wounded AM.
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Why would Deku's 100% scale to wounded All Might? I'm really curious about this. There is no reason in-universe where Deku's 100% only scales to an All Might that was running on embers.
 
Gitagon said:
Why would Deku's 100% scale to wounded All Might? I'm really curious about this. There is no reason in-universe where Deku's 100% only scales to an All Might that was running on embers.
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In the movie Two Hero in the rise of heroes saga Deku was shown comparable to weakened AM, its where the Low 7-B feat comes from.
 
Gitagon said:
All I will say is that this site is obsessed with scaling and the only scaling that matters is literally tiers of strength difference. People don't understand that sometimes the strength difference can exist without it being massive. Sure Shigaraki is close to All Might per Ujiko so he shouldn't be several tiers below him but that is confirmation that he is weaker then the latter meaning he is also weaker than Deku when he uses 100%. Just because Shigaraki didn't get obliterated in 1 punch by 100% doesn't mean he is equal, the fight clearly showed a strength gap exists just that it is not that wide.

Also with durability, it is clear MHA has a huge case of split durability. A lot of people have good blunt force durability, elemental durability mainly depends on whether your quirk is about a certain element, as for piercing, only those with hardening quirks, bioengineering products like Nomu and a quirk like OFA have good piercing durability.
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Its not that he didn't get obliterated by deku in one punch, it's that he was capable of standing there and just enduring punches until Deku ran out of energy while he was priorly weakened. That's not a tier difference at that point it's one thing if a character is capable of taking punches but is being clearly stomped(for a recent example take gojo vs jogo in jujutsu kaisen) , its another thing when a character is able to get into an endurance match of stamina with another sheerly through their own durability.

To the point that Bakugou states this about the fight "No he's gonna lose if this keeps up. It's taking every skill he's got to keep shigaraki in the air. But since that first hit didn't seal the deal, it's now an endurance match. Deku can't last forever against a guy who can regenerate. In a few minutes he'll be dust and have his power stolen from him"
 
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