Issues with Madara's Calc

[Callsign_Castle]

Tbh, they didn't show me any cows so I wouldn't know but if you can find the scan that supports that thing about Kaguya, that would be helpful

Black Zetsu says this and this

Human chakra is the goal of IT confirmed.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Animals were also trapped in the god tree (middle right panel)

 

[Jvando]

It doesn't state it's only goal is human chakra and don't animals have chakra too? Why would they be exempt? And of what Shadow is saying is true (though I'd need to go and check), then that is moot. Anyway, that's not what is important rn. What is important is the population

We see a Cat being ensnared in IT

>Has anyone else seen a cow turn into white zetsu? Pretty sure Kaguya said they come from people, which is the purpose of IT.

The main purpose is to suck up chakra, humans who get caught eventually turn into white Zetsu, the one doesn't negate the other.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Animals were also trapped in the god tree (middle right panel)

Depth perception makes it look that way.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That doesn't really matter when

A- Humans turning to Zetsu is a Byproduct of the ability not actually the main purpose

B Zetsu statement doesn't contradict animals being in the IT, it just states that Humans were the main goal.

those two things don't contradict one another.

Just because we don't see an animal getting wrapped doesn't mean anything when most of the world getting wrapped happens offscreen.

 

[AstralKing7]

Pretty sure that cat was wrapped up


We see the roots literally

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Depth perception makes it look that way.

Nope. There's little no one standing in that direction Sides the guy right in from the cat, who was already been completely released.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Anyway, what proof is there of billions of people in the world other than comparing their planet to ours?

 

[BlackeJan]

Anyway, what proof is there of billions of people in the world other than comparing their planet to ours?

Dont forget birth. Where there's death, there's life

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Nope. There's little no one standing in that direction Sides the guy right in from the cat, who was already been completely released.

You're right, the anime is clearer about it.

 

[Jvando]

Anyway, what proof is there of billions of people in the world other than comparing their planet to ours?

We've talked about their level of technology but some don't think that's an accurate metric to go by (despite technology level and population growth going hand in hand).

We've also discussed wars not having such an impact on their population. To begin with, the majority of deaths would come from Shinobi who we've discussed make up a very very small percentage of their true population.

I don't know what other metric to go by is technology level isn't a good enough indicator for a rough estimate

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; where does the majority of deaths coming from Shinobi come from? Yes, the Shinobi would be doing most of the fighting but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be large civilian deaths (Wasn't Nagato's home country devastated by wars?).

I have doubts regarding technology level because the level of technology has been shown to vary wildly in the Naruto verse; it doesn't line up exactly with our own world.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yeah, up until recently the verse was devastated by constant warfare. And 1,000 years prior was a literal war between Kaguya and her sons that lasted years or something.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

even if we assume Naruto's worldwide population = 1300 which gives us about 400 Million Humans, that's just Humans not accounting for the millions of other animal species which have each million of specimens around the world.

this is absolutely lowballing it because comparing Naruto's technology to that of 1300 is Ridiculous but it serves a good point

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Damage

Both World Wars, which would encompass way way way more people than the Shinobi wars don't even reach 100 million deaths

those 100 Million includes Civilians

the war's casualties would be negligent in the grand scheme

 

[YungManzi]

WWII ended with 3% of the world's population dead. Which is a lot of people, but still not enough to halt population growth.

If we think the wars are actually putting dents in the population growth of these industrialized nations, the casualties of each war would have to be somewhere above this, which is not very believable imo.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

What about ninja registration numbers? Naruto's number is 12,607, meaning since the creation of the Hidden Leaf, they've only had around 13,000 ninja of all ranks, dead or alive. Hiruzen's ninja number was 267, and he was alive to witness all the hokage including himself until Minato, a time period of several wars and attacks on the leaf.

 

[Jvando]

Didn't the third Raikage fight against 10,000 Shinobi...from the same village? Either not much thought was given to the ninja registration numbers or not much thought was given to the background of the Third Raikage's death. Or both. Either way, that is still a poor metric

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

In Fact Kishi gives us a Time period in which Naruto is set

Shonen Jump:Your work seems to have a science fiction influence. Approximately speaking what is the technology level in the world of Naruto?


Masashi Kishimoto: Actually, the world of Naruto doesn't differ very much from our present time. TV, refrigerators and air conditioners exist in the world. The only exceptions are weapons and explosives, which I've decided to set in a much earlier era. That's why you don't see firearms.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/21318193@N00/discuss/72157623565977557/


There's more

 

[Callsign_Castle]

@Jvando

Idk what village's shinobi he fought.

@Shadow

Which time period?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

It's modern with the exception of Vehicles and Weaponry

well modern to what Naruto was when it came out

 

[Callsign_Castle]

I read online he also based Konoha on his hometown but I can't find a source on it.

 

[YungManzi]

It's modern with the exception of Vehicles and Weaponry
well modern to what Naruto was when it came out

So that'd be around 1999?

 

[Spinoirr]

So its reasonable for there to be as much humans as our world? Probably not But the tree still needs to go all around the planet to get every human

 

[Damage3245]

So its reasonable for there to be as much humans as our world? Probably not

I don't think there is any solid evidence for it.

Considering alternative methods of estimating the world population, we know from Pain's speech to Jiraiya that a nation could consistent of "millions of people".

So we could gather a list of every known nation in Naruto and multiply the total by a few million to get a rough figure.

Obviously this estimate itself isn't a concrete number by any means, but it's at least based on something from the manga.

 

[Spinoirr]

We could just have the tree move from where it is to all the villages that we know in naruto instead

 

[YungManzi]

"Actually, the world of Naruto doesn't differ very much from our present time. TV, refrigerators and air conditioners exist in the world. The only exceptions are weapons and explosives, which I've decided to set in a much earlier era. That's why you don't see firearms."

With a statement like this, I think modern population is actually acceptable.

Every nation only having a few million people is a hilarious lowball.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Damage

that makes no sense, the context here is the lives lost not the estimated population, Millions of people died in WW II doesn't mean the world wide population was only in the Millions.

Also, your multiplications doesn't work when Millions could be 1 Million> 10 Million to 100 Million people.

this is a far worse alternative and requires far more assumptions.

@Spinor you can get a reasonable conclusion based on the Technology as once again Technology and Populace go hand in hand

 

[Jvando]

"Hilarious" is putting it lightly.

Population Growth is heavily dependent on technology level. This is a fact. Factoring in what Kishimoto said, using the population from around the time Naruto came out seems legit. Though, there might be other issues with the calc that I'm not aware of.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

@Damage
that makes no sense, the context here is the lives lost not the estimated population, Millions of people died in WW II doesn't mean the world wide population was only in the Millions.

"Jutsu of such magnitude such that each one could instantly destroy an entire nation." An entire nation is its entire population.

Regardless, TVs first hit Japan in 1950s, the global population was about 2.2 billion.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

It's modern with the exception of Vehicles and Weaponry
well modern to what Naruto was when it came out

So that'd be around 1999?

Kinda It would be a bit older based on the weaponary and what not the turn of the 20th century would be a far safer bet.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage
that makes no sense, the context here is the lives lost not the estimated population, Millions of people died in WW II doesn't mean the world wide population was only in the Millions.

Also, your multiplications doesn't work when Millions could be 1 Million> 10 Million to 100 Million people.

this is a far worse alternative and requires far more assumptions.

In this case lives lost would be pretty close to the estimated population since Pain spoke about destroying the entire nation.

Millions could mean more than a few million, sure, but we'd need to lowball it to be reasonable since not every small nation in Naruto is going to have tens of millions of people in it.

Trying to use technology level isn't a guarantee for accuracy here, since it is a fictional world. The link between technology and global population isn't necessarily the same as IRL.

 

[YungManzi]

So now that its been proven that animals were also targeted, will they be factored in, in the re-calc?

 

[Damage3245]

So now that its been proven that animals were also targeted, will they be factored in, in the re-calc?

We don't know how many animals there would be per root; so that'd involve too much guesswork.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Damage
that makes no sense, the context here is the lives lost not the estimated population, Millions of people died in WW II doesn't mean the world wide population was only in the Millions.

"Jutsu of such magnitude such that each one could instantly destroy an entire nation."
An entire nation is its entire population.

Regardless, TVs first hit Japan in 1950s, the global population was about 2.2 billion.

You realize Nation and country isnt the same thing

also

Okay ??

 

[Jvando]

Trying to use technology level isn't a guarantee for accuracy here, since it is a fictional world. The link between technology and global population isn't necessarily the same as IRL.

First of all, larger nations could have up to hundreds of millions of people. You can't assume the lowest possible number for the smallest nations and likewise assume that same number for the largest nations as that is highly inaccurate and requires a large assumption.

Next, we apply IRL metrics until proven otherwise. For example, before I provided evidence for the contrary, previous calcs for the distance from Konoha to Suna assumed rest for the individuals in question when they not only showed much higher resilience than normal, but also were superhuman.

Nothing presented has countered the idea that Naruto world's population is approx equivalent to our own while evidence has been presented to support that.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

You realize Nation and country isnt the same thing

also

Okay ??

Yes they are. You realize Pain used both nation and country interchangeably in both pages?

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; what is the current evidence supporting it aside from the Naruto world having examples of IRL technology?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Damage

I understand your concerns but assuming just a million would end up giving us a population for the world that ends up less than some our smallest countries in the early 20th century

there is Lowballing for the sake of not being Inflated and then there's lowballing that is just as suspicious as the Alternative.

in this context, it's the latter

I still think 1 billion is a safe lowball, based on the technology that the universe has shown to us with the inclusion of animals

 

[Damage3245]

@Shadow; well, when it comes to creating a new calc for the feat, maybe it could go with multiple ends and we can determine the best possible choice at that time.