Issues with Canon Composites and levels of Canon

[Sera_EX]

And how is this related to composite profiles?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I agree with Dragon for the most part.

If you have to treat feats based on the canonicity of different canons then just make different profiles for them. If it's a composite profile then you gotta throw the whole "this is more canon" argument out of the window, measure everything with the same scale, treat them equally and maintain a decent level of consistency.

Anyway, something about this. What we're calling a "canon composite" doesn't exist. It's just rating the primary canon by also using non-contradictory informations within secondary canons. If we're seriously going to call everything that uses guides or books a "composite canon" then yes, Dragon, we're definitely destroying the Canon hierarchy.

 

[TriforcePower1]

And how is this related to composite profiles?

That's what I'm wondering, too. Dragon was the one that brought that up.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Anyway, something about this. What we're calling a "canon composite" doesn't exist. It's just rating the primary canon by also using non-contradictory informations within secondary canons. If we're seriously going to call everything that uses guides or books a "composite canon" then yes, Dragon, we're definitely destroying the Canon hierarchy."

A canon composite does exist as in this case we are using all separate canons equally to rate a character. If we make a canon composite, then we are putting all this information on an equal standing. Not everything that uses a guidebook is a canon composite. A guidebook just gives more information into events that could or could not be inconsistent. I think you are heavily misunderstanding what my goal here is.

My goal is targeted strictly towards composite files. Naruto is not a composite verse. Dragon Ball is not a composite verse. Bleach is not a composite verse. Pokemon is a composite verse. Digimon is a composite verse. How Naruto treats its canon is not the same as how Pokemon or Digimon treat their canon. In a Composite file, there is no need for a canon hierarchy as all information should be used equally. It's not the same for Naruto or Dragon who are not composited and have a strict canon hierarchy.

 

[Drite77]

Would this also affect the like of the Profile of Godzilla?

 

[DMB_1]

Would this also affect the like of the Profile of Godzilla?

No, it wouldn't.

 

[Drite77]

But his 4-B rating is not consistent

 

[DMB_1]

Composite Godzilla is a composite of every continuity he's in, not a result of one continuity with primary and secondary canons.

Anyways, let's not derail.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I have been trying to simplify my argument multiple times and people are still not understanding.

-This only effects Composite files. Naruto, Bleach, etc are irrelevant here as they are not composites.

I am of two minds with Composite files.

-There should be no canon hierarchy when doing a composite file as all sources should be used equally and question equally. A composite continuity is putting everything as one. There should be no hierarchy as everything is now one entire beast.

-If we decide to keep this hierarchy, then the "primary" source should not be considered infallible as supporting sources should be able to put the primary source into question if there are enough consistent contradictions.

Either one of these two gets my point across and equally gets rid the issue I have with composite files.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will note that Composite Link only uses various canon Links into one, and info from secondary canon sources can be used if legit, but we don't use any of the Manga adaptations that are just completely non-canon. So his profile is a good example of how composite profiles can be treated. And Godzilla doesn't quite have a single continuity, but just many continuities that all have their own canon. And that's the main reason he gets a composite from all the continities.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, if this is about composites, then I don't have a dog in this fight. After all, I'm not too fond of those files to begin with.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And why not, Sera?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think she's saying she's not a big fan of them to begin with and doesn't really have much to say regarding them. I also heard she's on medication at the moment so she can't debate too much, but as mentioned; we all hope she recovers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Of course she's saying that, DDM. I asked why is she not fond of them.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Of course she's saying that, DDM. I asked why is she not fond of them.

Could be that she doesn't like putting dfferent entities who share the same name and putting them on one stat while also having versions for them being separate as well, thus making the composite rather needless. I'm not projecting at all I swear.

 

[Theuser789]

I have been trying to simplify my argument multiple times and people are still not understanding.

-This only effects Composite files. Naruto, Bleach, etc are irrelevant here as they are not composites.

I am of two minds with Composite files.

-There should be no canon hierarchy when doing a composite file as all sources should be used equally and question equally. A composite continuity is putting everything as one. There should be no hierarchy as everything is now one entire beast.

-If we decide to keep this hierarchy, then the "primary" source should not be considered infallible as supporting sources should be able to put the primary source into question if there are enough consistent contradictions.

Either one of these two gets my point across and equally gets rid the issue I have with composite files.

Well, if it is that simple then I agree, seems like a small problem

 

[Andytrenom]

Why try to explain things in someone else's place when they can explain their feelings themselves?

You people should try to be as respectful as me, or as humble

 

[Sera_EX]

@Cal

Well, as Dragon said they're redundant. Also it's just an excuse to have the character have more abilities, extra tiers, and additional equipment. A.k.a. "boost them up as much as possible".

Same with alternative canon files. I don't like them. They're just an excuse for the character to have a higher tier. That doesn't mean I'm saying ban them, they're fine to stay and I'll defend their right to stay as I have before, but I just personally don't like them.

It's similar to why I dislike comic book multiverses, they're just an excuse to enable lazy writing and ignoring continuity because "it's a different universe". I'm not vehemently against DC Comics though and still enjoy their stories.

Anyway, more on this some other time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, and especially for that reason Composite Marvel and DC characters are off limits because it's just an excuse to say "Let's make every single character 1-A or better yet, Tier 0 and flush all common sense down the toilet."

But anyway, enough of that topic and let's continue the main topic.

 

[Andytrenom]

Hope we aren't about to derail this into a "how i feel about composites" discussion

 

[Sera_EX]

"Anyway, more on this some other time." I said this for a reason.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Anyway, more on this some other time." I said this for a reason.

Silly Sera, we all know that this is not enough to stop a derail. There is gonna be that one person who starts it back up lol.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Like me

 

[Sera_EX]

We could totally just make a friendly discussion thread about it tho ƒæÇ

 

[Andytrenom]

I am resisting the urge to make a joke just to say this

Please get back on track guys

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean, no one has yet to really say anything to my simplified arguments. I am not going to go through text walls anymore as those are becoming a pain to read and type up and they are all getting circular. So I would like opinions on my simplified arguments.

 

[Andytrenom]

I will just ask something I wanted an answer for earlier, if a composite character has one technique/attack and it is different across multiple canons such as being lightning manipulation in one incarnation but energy manipulation in another, would we just give him everything the singular technique collectively had across the many incarnations or just pick a primary canon and give him what the technique entails in that version?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

If it is 1 incarnation for both, I would say it depends on which standard we agree with. If the first, I'd say both, if the second, then the primary would overwrite it.

If there are more souces that support say Lightning compared to Energy, then Lightning would be considered the more consistent version.

 

[Andytrenom]

My problem with giving both would be that it's the same technique, so lightning manipulation along with energy manipulation would imply that for the composite version this specific technique is either shooting lightning and energy at the same time or has gained the ability to switch between two different forms of attacks

This becomes a lot less ridiculous when you remember that lightning is energy too, but I think you get what I'm trying to say

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That's also a situation where you have to decide which makes more sense through discussion. Also, lightning is energy so it's not like either is wrong

 

[TriforcePower1]

I mean. If we're talking about Composites, given that a Composite is literally "all together", there's no need to distinguish canons, but there's also no need to check for contradictions. We take the abilities they have in one medium, then the ones in an another medium, put them together and that's a Composite.

If you say that's not what should be done, then it's simply not a Composite anymore, and the normal canon hierarchies come into play.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No, that's not how that works. A composite still requires consistency. You don't need a canon hierarchy to search for consistencies is equivalent sources. When you are putting sources on an equal playing field, there are bound to be contradictions. And thus those need to be sorted out for consistency. Being a composite does not mean we ignore contradictions and consistency.

Megadramo has a source that notes he can overwrite the Host Computer (Yggdrasil) and destroy it. However, in every other source, this supposed feat is contradicted by everything else as he's no more special than the Ultimates who only have Stellar feats. Thus, the official entry is overwritten as it is a blatant contradiction to literally everything else. This example works for both of my options as in this case, the number of other sources that contradict this Reference Book entry (which would be considered primary canon) shows that this is a contradiction and overall is outdated to newer interpretations.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Tri That becomes shaky when one those abilities is something that's supposed to be something else in another canon. To use a better example now, if we assume a character's finishing attack is an explosion in one version but that same finishing move is a laser blast in another, in that case would you give him explosion manipulation and energy projection via making an explosion that fires off a laser or something?

 

[TriforcePower1]

A Composite is by definition "compositing" the different incarnations of a character. If Link in a game showed Petrification but doesn't in other games, we're not saying "well, it happened only once so we're not going to keep it in the composite". While admittedly not an expert, I believe we do something similar for Godzilla, too.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Tri That becomes shaky when one those abilities is something that's supposed to be something else in another canon. To use a better example now, if we assume a character's finishing attack is an explosion in one version but that same finishing move is a laser blast in another, in that case would you give him explosion manipulation and energy projection via making an explosion that fires off a laser or something?

If we had a page for the first character we would put it as Explosion Manipulation, while Energy Projection for the second. So, if we composite the characters, we end up with both. That's what a Composite is.

If we want to keep only one ability, then we take the primary canon and ignore the other, but then you're not doing a Composite anymore.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Composite Link and Godzilla are also completely different entities together. Breath of the Wild Link is a completely different character with a different items set to say, Majora's Mask Link. Compared to say Digimon or Pokemon or almost any composited monster gathering series where the files focus on the species as a whole and not just a particular character unless there is a blatant exception. See Piedmo or hell, even Red compared to Adventure Red. Not all Composites put all the same entity into one.

Nowhere is it stated that composite ignores consistency or contradictions. When you do something like Link and Godzilla, they become exceptions as in this case you are allowing all variations and incarnations to become one instead of making taking the same character and seeing what they are granted in other continuities.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Megadramo has a source that notes he can overwrite the Host Computer (Yggdrasil) and destroy it. However, in every other source, this supposed feat is contradicted by everything else as he's no more special than the Ultimates who only have Stellar feats. Thus, the official entry is overwritten as it is a blatant contradiction to literally everything else. This example works for both of my options as in this case, the number of other sources that contradict this Reference Book entry (which would be considered primary canon) shows that this is a contradiction and overall is outdated to newer interpretations.

Obviously outliers and retcons still exist. If a character has a 5-B outlier in a media then when making the composite we still ignore that outlier.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You are missing the point Triforce. Also, this is not an outlier for the Reference Book. Said reference book on its own has no outliers in itself. The other canon media are what makes it an outlier and an inconsistency. The reference book entry is still used and reused to this day, yet it does not stop it from being contradicted by other sources. This example shows that even a composited version can still have contradictions that need to be dealt with.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm perfectly okay with composites. In Link's case (and let's be honest that's the one I care about the most) you don't think "oh, this is SS!Link, not TP or ALTTP!Link," and imo I think it's silly to limit the character to one game even though it's still the spirit of the hero.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

'''No one is trying to remove composites good lord'''...I am getting irritated now...It doesn't matter what one thinks of composites here as this thread is not about removing composites at all.