• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Issue with Note 1 of the Tiering System

1,558
345
NOTE: My issue here isn't with characters claiming to be infinitely above 2-C not being classified as 2-A. My issue is with the phrasing of the note completely contradicting math.

The first note of the Tiering System claims, "Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A.", of which the latter is, mathematically, false, as any 2-C, by definition, has already bridged one of those gaps. Unless there's reason to assume that any gaps the 2-C hasn't already bridged is 2-A (or bigger) in size, which, unless specifically stated/shown to be the case, would be jumping to unfounded conclusions contrary to the available evidence, then due to the infinite multiplier in place here, any finite (from a Tier 2 perspective) gap may as well equal zero.

To demonstrate mathematically, we need 3 variables:

S = The power of the character, measured in spacetime continuums (let's go with a baseline of 2 here).

G = The gap between each spacetime continuum, measured in the size of spacetime continuums.

I = Infinity.

Regardless of if you check if S*G < S*I or calculate S*G*I and regardless if G = 5, or G = 52!*101010100! (or any other finite value), the result is infinite spacetime continuums. In fact, the rest of the formula may as well not be there in the first place.

If you wanna argue that the gaps, themselves, are infinite, then I will have to ask how come the 2-C isn't 2-A to begin with? And, again, that will let our character infinitely above said character cross infinity infinite gaps.

In summary: The argument presented in the note is the 4D equivalent of claiming that a character infinitely above a 3-B isn't High 3-A, because we don't know the distance between galaxies outside of the observable universe.

Also, since this may apparently be needed: In a simplified explaination, character A has crossed the gap between spacetime continuums once. Character B is infinitely above character A in every way. Character B can cross an infinitely larger gap, or any gap the same size or finitely larger, an infinite number of times.
 
I lean toward agreeing with this, and have brought up the issue myself in the past, but was outvoted.

You will need to ask several other bureaucrats and administrators to comment here in order to adjust this regulation though: VS Battles Staff
 
The way I see it, the only way that note could possibly make sense was if the size of the gap between two realities is >itself*infinity
 
Well, you should ask Promestein, Ultima Reality, and several administrators to comment here. I cannot change our standards on my own.
 
I went through the list of admins. Might have been a few too many, but I didn't know who to ask.
 
The true reason someone infinitely above Low 2-C isn't 2-C isn't because of the distance between universes is unknown. It's because the tier is infinite in itself. It's not about the distance between universes, it's about the difference between R^4 and R^4^4.

The note is just really outdated.
 
Sera EX said:
The true reason someone infinitely above Low 2-C isn't 2-C isn't because of the distance between universes is unknown. It's because the tier is infinite in itself. It's not about the distance between universes, it's about the difference between R^4 and R^4^4.
The note is just really outdated.
We aren't talking about Low 2-C -> 2-C (I am well aware an argument can be made there)

But 2-C -> 2-A
 
The same logic applies. Let's say someone infinitely above a Low 2-C was 2-C. Then someome being infinitely above a 2-C would be at least still 2-C and at most 2-B depending on the number of universes.

The difference between baseline 2-C and baseline 2-A isn't so easily breached by claiming "I'm infinitely stronger than you!"
 
Sera EX said:
The same logic applies. Let's say someone infinitely above a Low 2-C was 2-C. Then someome being infinitely above a 2-C would be at least still 2-C and at most 2-B depending on the number of universes.
The difference between baseline 2-C and baseline 2-A isn't so easily breached by claiming "I'm infinitely stronger than you!"
At that point, it stops being logical, as both 2-C, 2-B, and 2-C and 2-B combined, are finite tiers.

An infinitesimal of the gap has already been breached, simply by being 2-C. Infinite infinitesimals = Infinity.

The only way your argument could hold water is if Baseline 2-A > Infinite 4D, or that you need to be able to affect 5D space to be Infinite 4D.
 
I'm not seeing your point.

Not even math should be abused to get way higher stats.

Powerscaling from 2-C to reach 2-A is unfortunately by natute fallacious because infinitely greater than is more often than not, hyperbole. We can't risk inflating our already high-balled stats like that.

Again, the note is flawed, but there's more releveant reasons to why it shouldn't be considered 2-A.
 
Sera EX said:
I'm not seeing your point.
Not even math should be abused to get way higher stats.

Powerscaling from 2-C to reach 2-A is unfortunately by natute fallacious because infinitely greater than is more often than not, hyperbole. We can't risk inflating our already high-balled stats like that.

Again, the note is flawed, but there's more releveant reasons to why it shouldn't be considered 2-A.
My issue isn't that characters claiming to be infinitely above a 2-C aren't 2-A. It's that the note is contradicting math, and that it should be changed, due to not meeting the wiki standards. At least we seem to be on the same page there.
 
Yeah, the note is very outdated and should probably be either reworded or removed.
 
So, we agree, then? Excellent.

I agree on your other point as well. You definitely need feats, or at the very least, good supporting evidence to be considered 2-A. Not just claim to be infinitely above a 2-C. But as far as I'm aware, we treat every other tier the same way.

(I'm pretty sure there's at least one Tier 7 who'd have been Tier 0, otherwise).
 
That gap between Low 2-C and 2-C isn't Infinite, it's just unknown; it could be anywhere between 2x and Infinite, but it's not quite infinite. Because the distance between two timelines is unaccountably. 2-A on the other hand is an infinite number of universes and thus.

Also, the problem doesn't just come from the mathematical stand point, but just the use of hyperbole's and flowery language. Saying "Infinitely superior" is a very common statement of a character boasting about their superiority rather than it being mathematical or scientifically infinite. Plus, slapping 2-A ratings on characters from a verse where the cosmology has nothing beyond a finite number of universes is also a hard no regardless of "Multiplier statements".

I do agree that perhaps the wording should be better because being infinity superior to a 2-C being 2-A is mathematically accurate, it's just that the statement alone being used as a justification is hyperbolic/flowery at best. And instead, no character should have a tier rating exceed the cosmology of the verse unless there's other context.
 
So, while raw statememts aren't always super useful, if we have reason to believe they are actually, mathematically infinitely superior (within reasonabld context), would that be reason to jump to 2-A?

And if so, what about jumps from Low 2-C to 2-C, or otherwise smaller jumps?
 
Moritzva said:
So, while raw statememts aren't always super useful, if we have reason to believe they are actually, mathematically infinitely superior (within reasonabld context), would that be reason to jump to 2-A?
And if so, what about jumps from Low 2-C to 2-C, or otherwise smaller jumps?
For the former, if the 'verse supports infinite realities, I'd say yes.

For the latter, the differences become unquantifiable.
 
I've always found it weird that you can be several dozen times stronger than a guy who can destroy a singular timeline, and be weaker than someone who can destroy two.
 
No to your first question and absolutely not to your second.

As DDM said, we shouldn't assume a character is far beyond their cosmology except in extremely exceptional cases. And I already explained why you can't get to 2-C by being infinitely greater than Low 2-C because Low 2-C already contains infinity. Same for all of Tier 1.
 
Moritzva said:
I've always found it weird that you can be several dozen times stronger than a guy who can destroy a singular timeline, and be weaker than someone who can destroy two.
Mathematically speaking, Low 2-C is R^4 (R = Real Number). 2-C starts at R^4^4. You can't reach R^4^4 by adding infinity to R^4.
 
Moritzva said:
I've always found it weird that you can be several dozen times stronger than a guy who can destroy a singular timeline, and be weaker than someone who can destroy two.
That's the same thing with most celestial bodies.

The high end 5-B Legendary Pokemon, for example, has the AP to blow up Earth ten times over, but are not even remotely close to being multi planet busters, due to the distance between two planets.

Cell is a solar system buster, and 50 times above baseline. But he is nothing compared to someone who can destroy two solar systems, again all due to distance.

The distance between two timelines is, if not truly infinite, unquantifiable, and should thus be treated as infinite.
 
Cell is only 50x baseline based on the inverse square law calculation actually. And unquantifiable =/= infinite.
 
I obviously agree that the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable. It is the difference between 2-C and 2-A that I am uncertain about.

@Sera

How would you suggest that we reword the footnote?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Cell is only 50x baseline based on the inverse square law calculation actually. And unquantifiable =/= infinite.
I stand corrected.

And still, if we can't quantify it, then we can't do a tier jump based on a finite multiplier. From that perspective, it should be treated as if it was infinite.
 
We sometimes allow multipliers if they're scientifically stated, just not if they sound overhyped. Like Digimon did have a 1000x multiplier that was accepted due to being scientifically on point; and Kaioken outright states strength and speed being multiplied ten fold as opposed to the nonlinear "Power levels". We just doing accept Saiyan multipliers given the inconsistencies.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
We sometimes allow multipliers if they're scientifically stated, just not if they sound overhyped. Like Digimon did have a 1000x multiplier that was accepted due to being scientifically on point; and Kaioken outright states strength and speed being multiplied ten fold as opposed to the nonlinear "Power levels". We just doing accept Saiyan multipliers given the inconsistencies.
Not quite what I meant. Even if we have a character that is 7 trillion times as powerful as a Low 2-C, and has demonstrated that level of power, we don't know where Low 2-C ends, and can't justify a 2-C rating for that character.

I meant it specifically for Low 2-C -> 2-C
 
Wouldn't a character that is infinitely superior to a low 2-C character (no hyperboles, just raw data), be 2-A since the gap between low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable but less than infinite and the gap between 2-C and 2-A is only one level of infinity?
 
I am personally only considering to allow multiples of 2-C, not Low 2-C.
 
Being 1000x or above stronger than a Low 2-C character won't make someone 2-C; especially if there's only one universe that exists in the verse. And I think we just need to re word it as saying that we shouldn't use multiplier statements for tier jumps on Tier 2 or above. With the wording being that they're often used as flowery language rather than scientifically or mathematical gaps in power. And especially statements that make use of "Infinitely greater" that should be treated as obvious hyperboles.
 
I'm against using multipliers to jump from 2-C to 2-B or something else. Also, if the verse only has a cosmology of say 5 universes, being infinitely stronger than a 2-C shouldn't make a character 2-A either, which I see now that DDM and Sera already mentioned.
 
Now that I spent quite some time digging up a very related thread, it is advised to take a look before making any change (if there is a requirement for change that concerns the matters discussed in the thread I'm linking).

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1682972
 
Oh if 5-D axis isn't a thing anymore then I guess multipliers shouldn't be used indeed but euhm I thought 5-D axis kinda made sense and a multiverse should work right that no?
 
The 5D axis bit was just an attempt at explaining why a multiverse isn't exactly 5D, thus the creation of High 2-A (which is now part of Low 1-C for some reason).
 
AKM sama said:
Also, if the verse only has a cosmology of say 5 universes, being infinitely stronger than a 2-C shouldn't make a character 2-A either
I kinda agree here. If there's a 20 universes cosmology, being 10x someone who destroys 2 universes COULD be considered for being enough to qualify as being able to destroy 20 universes. If the cosmology caps at 5 universes, tho, then it can't be used as more than that, 5 universes.

On the other hand, if the cosmology has countless universes, and has a character who destroys 10 universes, and another one who's said to be 100x stronger, than it COULD count as 2-B.

Note that I say could since I'm unsure about this.
 
Back
Top